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Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 10:44:28 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your comments! I'm glad you enjoyed the history lesson. Henry Higgins (a character in a drama written by George Bernard Shaw) is an expert certainly. Whether Condon reached Higgins' level is a question to be asked. Condon appears to me to be a ham, not an insult. Hams often choose to be actors, advertisers, salesmen, teachers, and politicians. Condon was probably an excellent lecturer with much knowledge. Whether he had studied German extensively enough to identify the various accents is a another question to be asked, but he was a good imitator. Good point!
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Post by Mbg on Aug 18, 2021 12:02:06 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your comments! I'm glad you enjoyed the history lesson. Henry Higgins (a character in a drama written by George Bernard Shaw) is an expert certainly. Whether Condon reached Higgins' level is a question to be asked. Condon appears to me to be a ham, not an insult. Hams often choose to be actors, advertisers, salesmen, teachers, and politicians. Condon was probably an excellent lecturer with much knowledge. Whether he had studied German extensively enough to identify the various accents is a another question to be asked, but he was a good imitator. Good point! Condon did speak some German, although I doubt that he was proficient in it. He even had a German housekeeper once. In JTA he tells about reciting a famous German Goethe poem to Hauptmann at the Greenwich police station lineup. His daughter Myra took German lessons. There must have been a fondness for the German language in the household. That's why I think he pretended not to recognize CJ's German accent. To pinpoint the region of its origin would likely not have been within Jafsie's grasp. He certainly was a (clever) ham!
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Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 13:40:31 GMT -5
Yes, it's quite likely that Dr. Condon did take some German courses and probably had some knowledge of it. When he visited Hauptmann in the Trenton prison he quoted something in German to Hauptmann, and I was willing to bet it was from Goethe. Hauptmann probably did not recognize the passage though and so made no response. I did not know that the Condons had a German housekeeper, having not yet read JTA. When Condon and Lindbergh were flying over Martha's Vineyard looking for the baby, Condon recited Hamlet's soliloquy from Shakespeare's play: "To be or not to be, that is the question. . ." Not exactly appropriate, but it's clear that Condon did have a good memory for some materials, and that helps the lecturer who then is not necessarily bound to read notes. Thank you much for writing.
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Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 14:40:45 GMT -5
I was wondering what might have happened if Hauptmann had recognized the source of the passage Condon was quoting to him in German during the visit in the Trenton prison. Supposing Hauptmann had jumped to his feet and exclaimed "That's Goethe!" and then recited a few of Goethe's lines himself in German. It may have impressed Condon and helped to save Hauptmann's neck. Goethe was probably not included in the curriculum in the program of Hauptmann's study, however, so we may never find an answer to this question.
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Post by Mbg on Aug 18, 2021 16:09:25 GMT -5
I was wondering what might have happened if Hauptmann had recognized the source of the passage Condon was quoting to him in German during the visit in the Trenton prison. Supposing Hauptmann had jumped to his feet and exclaimed "That's Goethe!" and then recited a few of Goethe's lines himself in German. It may have impressed Condon and helped to save Hauptmann's neck. Goethe was probably not included in the curriculum in the program of Hauptmann's study, however, so we may never find an answer to this question. Jafsie quoted from this poem during the lineup in the Greenwich police station, not in the jailhouse. Hauptmann likely knew this popular poem and understood perfectly well what Jafsie was saying and implying, but he wasn't going to confess. In the jailhouse, according to Jafsie in JTA, Hauptmann asked him to speak in German with him, which he said he did at length, with Wilentz and the jailhouse guard standing nearby. This makes little sense as the guards assigned during visits were Germans ordered to record Hauptmann's conversations. The visit took place on October 24, 1934. Lieut. A. L. Smith's written report does not state what was said between the two, only the following words to Anna later in the day: "I was visited by an old gentleman about sixty years of age, who made a very good impression on me." How could that be, if what Jafsie wrote in JTA was what he said to Hauptmann: "I have been treated like a criminal, accused, while all this time you had the money which I handed to you, hidden in your garage." This accusation would hardly have impressed Hauptmann favorably. Hugo Stockburger, the other prison guard to overhear Anna's and Richard's conversation that day, recorded the following: Richard: "That old man from New York was just in to see me, what is his name?" Anna: "You mean Condon." Richard: "Yes." Anna: "I would not trust him too much, I have heard a lot about him from our friends." Richard: "He told me to tell the truth, and I said to him that I have told everything I know, I can't make up stories." I get the impression that the guards were called off during Jafsie's visit. One thing is clear, Hauptmann wasn't going to confess to anything.
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Post by Mbg on Aug 18, 2021 17:15:29 GMT -5
I was wondering what might have happened if Hauptmann had recognized the source of the passage Condon was quoting to him in German during the visit in the Trenton prison. Supposing Hauptmann had jumped to his feet and exclaimed "That's Goethe!" and then recited a few of Goethe's lines himself in German. It may have impressed Condon and helped to save Hauptmann's neck. Goethe was probably not included in the curriculum in the program of Hauptmann's study, however, so we may never find an answer to this question. Jafsie quoted from this poem during the lineup in the Greenwich police station, not in the jailhouse. Hauptmann likely knew this popular poem and understood perfectly well what Jafsie was saying and implying, but he wasn't going to confess. In the jailhouse, according to Jafsie in JTA, Hauptmann asked him to speak in German with him, which he said he did at length, with Wilentz and the jailhouse guard standing nearby. This makes little sense as the guards assigned during visits were Germans ordered to record Hauptmann's conversations. The visit took place on October 24, 1934. Lieut. A. L. Smith's written report does not state what was said between the two, only the following words to Anna later in the day: "I was visited by an old gentleman about sixty years of age, who made a very good impression on me." How could that be, if what Jafsie wrote in JTA was what he said to Hauptmann: "I have been treated like a criminal, accused, while all this time you had the money which I handed to you, hidden in your garage." This accusation would hardly have impressed Hauptmann favorably. Hugo Stockburger, the other prison guard to overhear Anna's and Richard's conversation that day, recorded the following: Richard: "That old man from New York was just in to see me, what is his name?" Anna: "You mean Condon." Richard: "Yes." Anna: "I would not trust him too much, I have heard a lot about him from our friends." Richard: "He told me to tell the truth, and I said to him that I have told everything I know, I can't make up stories." I get the impression that the guards were called off during Jafsie's visit. One thing is clear, Hauptmann wasn't going to confess to anything. I have to correct my own statement. The jailhouse conversation between Hauptmann and Jafsie was recorded by Hugo Stockburger. (Had forgotten that I had it.) Present were Col. Schwarzkopf, Wilentz and Prosecutor Hauck. It's lengthy. Here, Condon is quoted as asking Hauptmann, "But how did you get the money?" That obviously contradicts what he wrote in JTA. Hauptmann did feel encouraged after their talk. When Jafsie asked him, "Are you glad that I came to see you?" Hauptmann answered, "Yes, you are welcome." Now it makes sense.
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Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 20:21:10 GMT -5
The entire conversation between Condon and Hauptmann was once posted on the board. I did read it then and could try to find it though someone else may be able to find it more easily. If Condon wrote something about the interview in JTA, I would take it with a large lump of salt.
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Post by hurtelable on Aug 21, 2021 13:30:40 GMT -5
I don't think Riehl contributes very much toward identification of any of the three men he saw. It would seem, though, that Riehl was close enough to be able to identify "an American" a one of the three. He probably was able to hear some conversation and identified Condon(?) as an American because he spoke English without an accent. I believe Riehl was a German immigrant so might have picked up conversation between CJ and the third man, who we might guess to be the "lookout" seen by Al Reich while waiting in his car. One might guess that this conversation was in German, yet Riehl apparently was never asked about any such conversation.
On a different question, did Condon ever specifically say BEFORE HAUPTMANN's ARREST that the CJ from Woodlawn was the same man as the CJ from St. Raymond's? If so, can you please cite your source?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 21, 2021 19:09:34 GMT -5
I was wondering what might have happened if Hauptmann had recognized the source of the passage Condon was quoting to him in German during the visit in the Trenton prison. Supposing Hauptmann had jumped to his feet and exclaimed "That's Goethe!" and then recited a few of Goethe's lines himself in German. It may have impressed Condon and helped to save Hauptmann's neck. Goethe was probably not included in the curriculum in the program of Hauptmann's study, however, so we may never find an answer to this question. What Condon claimed to have related to Hauptmann at Greenwich Station:
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 21, 2021 19:12:58 GMT -5
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 22, 2021 9:05:46 GMT -5
I don't think Riehl contributes very much toward identification of any of the three men he saw. It would seem, though, that Riehl was close enough to be able to identify "an American" a one of the three. He probably was able to hear some conversation and identified Condon(?) as an American because he spoke English without an accent. I believe Riehl was a German immigrant so might have picked up conversation between CJ and the third man, who we might guess to be the "lookout" seen by Al Reich while waiting in his car. One might guess that this conversation was in German, yet Riehl apparently was never asked about any such conversation. On a different question, did Condon ever specifically say BEFORE HAUPTMANN's ARREST that the CJ from Woodlawn was the same man as the CJ from St. Raymond's? If so, can you please cite your source? If Riehl actually walked into a situation where three men were present at the gate of Woodlawn Cemetery, then his observations are extremely significant towards the involvement of someone other than Condon and CJ. Just trying to put oneself into Riehl’s shoes, as he’s on his patrol route from the main gate and walking towards the north-west gate at 233rd St. and Jerome Ave., the first unusual thing he notices, is a guy he sees sitting on top of one of the 14 foot high stone columns, who by no stretch could have been confused with the character described as CJ by Condon. It's a significant observation in my books, and a much different one witnessed by Condon, whose primary aspect of observation was CJ waving a white handkerchief through the iron fence along Jerome Ave. This was followed by that same individual then leading him to a standing position near and directly behind the 8 ft. high iron gate, immediately to the right of the vehicle entrance gates. IMO, this scenario raises the likely possibility that Condon never saw the individual first observed by Riehl on the high granite column, due to their respective lines of visual sight, essentially ones that were 180 degrees to each other’s. Regarding your question about Condon testifying BEFORE the arrest of Hauptmann, that the man he met at Woodlawn and St. Raymond's were believed to be one and the same individual, I can't pinpoint an investigative reported source but believe this relationship was made clear during the Bronx Grand Jury in May of 1932.
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