Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 11, 2021 11:24:46 GMT -5
As Patrolman Robert Riehl approached his security station to clock in, he claimed to have seen a man sitting on the top of a stone column (14 ft. high) at the main gate. He describes this man as about 5’ 6” or 5’ 7”, weighing about 130-135 lbs., in dark pants, white shirt and wearing no coat, judged to be about 23 or 24 years of age and wearing a cap. As Riehl approached, he claimed the man yelled “There’s the Cop coming!” giving no indication of a foreign accent, before jumping down from the stone column and running into Van Cortlandt Park.
Riehl then describes the man outside the gate fence (8 ft. high), who from all other accounts should have been John Condon, as being between 50 and 55 years of age, about 5’ 6” or 5’ 7” in height, weighing about 170 lbs., clean shaven, round face, apparently American, wearing a dark suit, dark overcoat, collar and tie, black soft hat turned up all the way around, and who spoke like an American.
I think this is where things get very interesting, when attempting to crunch and rationalize Riehl’s account. For what it’s worth here is my accounting of that event.
As I’ve posted previously, I still believe Riehl saw someone other than CJ sitting on top of the stone column during his approach to the gate. His line of sight would have been different from that of Condon’s, who was immediately focused on CJ in dark clothing behind the fence, who had waved the white handkerchief and was leading him to a position near the front gate. From 75 feet away, Riehl would have seen the white-shirted man on his side of the stone column, while Condon would not have seen him at all. I’ve viewed these stone columns up close and they are large enough at the top for a man to perch on and not be seen from the other side.
What I believe happened next is that both the white-shirted man and CJ probably reacted almost simultaneously to the sounds of Riehl’s approach, with CJ being the actual man who yelled “There’s the Cop coming!” as Condon testified. In the confusion that ensued, and as Riehl completed his walk to the front gate, the white shirted man, unseen by Condon, jumped down from the stone column and disappeared. At the same time, CJ who was standing on the other side of the fence in front of Condon, clambered over the iron rail fence, jumped down beside Condon and also ran off in fear. Riehl, whose line of sight had allowed him to observe the white-shirted man on the stone column, did not see CJ at all, as his attention was elsewhere. Later, when Condon and CJ were talking at the tennis courts change room bench, Condon seemed to sense CJ was aware of the presence of another person in the background. I believe this was the white-shirted man.
Regarding Riehl’s description of the “American” man on the other side of the fence, that’s a tough one to process given that it’s so far removed from a description of Condon. We know that Condon went to Woodlawn Cemetery and engaged Riehl during his visit. This is well documented and Al Reich, who may not have seen Riehl at all, nevertheless corroborates the path Condon took from the time he saw the waved handkerchief to the front gate where he met CJ. If this wasn’t Condon, who else could it reasonably have been? And how would another man suddenly “sub in” for Condon, who then reappears later at Reich’s car? Riehl’s description of Condon seems to make little sense. Personally, this is basically where I’m at in the Woodlawn Cemetery meeting between Condon and CJ. I’m interested if anyone else has additional detail and thoughts that might help to fill in a picture of what actually happened here, given the full accounts by both Condon and Riehl.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 11, 2021 15:02:59 GMT -5
Thank you for posting these remarks, Joe. They do correspond to the information gleaned from my own research. Robert Riehl changed his description slightly from his original statement. The later statement given in July (three months later) to the Grand Jury, but the details for the most part seem to correspond. I think that you correctly conclude that there were at least three men at Woodlawn and that Riehl was aware of only two. His desciption does not fit John Condon at all, Condon being 71 years old, not fifty, and not clean shaven. The man Riehl describes is smooth shaven(no beard or mustache) and with a round face. I have not seen any photograph of Condon without at least a big mustache--one can't miss it. Also according to Riehl's first statement, he had a heavy weight, more than the 170 pounds he indicated to the Grand Jury. Condon may not have been aware of the third man, but it's also possible that he did but did not want to reveal the identity of the person for reasons of his own. Michael describes this scene in "Dark Corners'" well and includes both statements made by Riehl. It's quite possible that the gang leader was present but did not want to be observed for fear of later recognition. You might not want to agree with this statement, but the man Riehl saw was most likely a look-out or Number One or Number Two, wanting to make sure that no one would double-cross the group, and that would include Condon as well as the gang's intermediary (CJ). This scene should be explored, and let's hope someone has some additional information.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 11, 2021 15:42:33 GMT -5
I had posted some comments on this topic August 9 on the thread "Vol. 3" and do not want to repeat them here. This scene at Woodlawn should be examined, especially in light of the guard's (Robert Riehl) statements.
|
|
|
Post by lurp173 on Aug 11, 2021 18:51:23 GMT -5
Joe, I find your accounting of the Woodlawn Cemetery meeting between Condon and C.J. very interesting and informative (as usual). It certinly makes sense that C.J. would have wanted a lookout to assist him in the risky business of attempting a ransome payment in the dark of night. I believe Condon stated that C.J. was under the impression that he (Condon) would have the ransome money at this Woodlawn meeting. Additionally it appears that the gated entrance to the Cemetery is quite massive with those stone columns and heavy gate. That massive entrance and the low lighting conditions that night would certainly make it difficult for Riehl to see everything that was occurring at the entrance. The following are some of my thoughts on this: With all due respect to Riehl, he was a 54 year old cemetery security guard not a Police Officer with training and experience in the subjects of surveillance, observations and identification of suspects. It is well documented the the average person is not very accurate with identification of suspects that they observe for a very brief moment in time. In fact, in my experiences identifications are usually quite miserable! (In law enforcement training sessions for recruits, many times the instructors will have someone burst into the classroom, say and do something, and run out. The identification descriptions by trainees are always ALL OVER THE PLACE). In his statement Riehl stated that the lighting conditions that night were only "fair" and that it was too dark to see the face or color of hair of the man sitting on top of the column. Riehl describes this man as 5'6" or 5'7" but he only saw this man for a very brief moment as the man was sitting on the column, jumping and running away on the other side of the gate. I would say that under these conditions Riehl's estimate of this man's height is a wild guess at best--not worth much to me. Additionally, Riehl stated that his estimatimation of this man's age (23-24) was based on "his actions while running". Obviously this is an extremely poor method of estimating someone's age (I would guess that a 32 year old Hauptmann could certainly run like a 24 year old). For me this only leaves the description of the white shirt and no jacket (I can't remember if Condon ever said that C.J. was wearing a white shirt under his jacket that night). As to Riehl's description of the man he saw and exchanged a few words with who was standing on the outside area near the gate: First off, I believe that Alfred Reich, who was waiting in the vehicle that night, stated that he could see everything that Condon was doing while at the cemetery gate area. He could not hear conversations, but he could see. Reich stated that he saw Condon running after the fleeing man and that he saw the man stop to let Condon catch up. Unless one believes that Reich was lying (and part of a grand criminal conspiracy), Condon was at the gate area and he did chase after the fleeing man. Security Guard Rielh's description of this man was not a match for Condon, but again that description has to be looked at carefully. Rielh only saw this man for a brief moment through the heavy gate, at night, and under "fair" lighting conditions. I would submit that under these conditions it would be very difficult for the average person to accurately judge someones physical characteristics like height, weight, age, etc. Condon was fit for his 72 years and i believe could pass for someone 55 under those lighting conditions. Condon was stocky for his taller height, and Rielh did describe a stocky individual (5'6"/170 lbs.). I believe it would be easy to misjudge a man's height under those conditons that night but much easier to judge a man's build (slim, medium or stocky). Height and age are difficult for most people to judge even under ideal conditions. Rielh describes a stocky person for whatever that's worth. Rielh's description that this man was clean shaven is interesting. I would submit that again, under the conditions of that night, Rielh could have easily missed seeing Condon's white, neatly trimmed mustache. I am unfortunately the same age as Condon was in 1934 and I have a neat, closely trimmed white goatee. i can't tell you how many times that I have met up with friends that I haven't seen in months and they comment that i have grown a goatee since they last saw me (I've had this white goatee for at least 12 years now). I never had any comments like this in my younger days when I had a short dark red beard. White blends in. It just does not stand out. I am attaching 2 photos of Condon that I think illustrates this, Additionally, Riehl stated that he could not identify this man from a photo which to me shows he did not get a good view of the man's face. Riehl did describe this individual outside the gate as having a dark suit and overcoat, a tie, a black soft hat that "turned up all the way around", and that he spoke like an American. I believe that all of this does fit Condon that night. Finally, Rielh stated that he did not know Condon. Unfortunately I have been long winded on this but i just wanted to share my thoughts. I currently believe that due to the totality of all of the above, I can accept the strong possibility that Rielh saw Condon and C.J. at the Woodlawn Cemetery entrance on the night of March 12, 1932. Attachment Deleted
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 12, 2021 7:24:10 GMT -5
Great post Lurp, and your assessment of people suddenly pushed into critical eyewitness descriptions, especially at night, bears a lot of validity. I’ve had plenty of experience with this myself in work-related investigations in daylight hours. I need to have another go through of Michael’s information on this as well. Can anyone provide the source(s) in Dark Corners? (Index / detailed Table of Contents.. ) One other note that may or may not apply but maybe worth a thought or two. I believe the “look-out” who walked by Condon and Reich just before Condon was alerted by CJ’s white handkerchief, could very well have been the same “white-shirted man” on the stone column. I suspect that the look-out who was walking south on Jerome Ave., entered the cemetery further down, once out of sight of Condon, then met up with CJ where he possibly removed his coat and gave it to CJ to wear. The strategy here being to allow the white-shirted man an opportunity to more effectively camouflage himself against the stone column’s light-coloured granite construction.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 12, 2021 7:58:55 GMT -5
Another factor or two I'm not sure have previously been raised. Does anyone else believe Robert Riehl could have done more to determine the exact nature of the meeting that he interrupted? I mean he basically comes forth and questions what's going on here, but then seems to accept Condon's response that he'll try to find out. My understanding is he then waited for a short period of time before returning to his duties. Should he not have pursued or even attempted to apprehend the subjects for questioning? Would a cemetery patrolman in 1932, have been armed and authorized to detain a person suspected of illegal activity within his area of jurisdiction? Or would his duties and responsibilities, perhaps being of a timeclock-sensitive nature, not have allowed for this type of diversion, unless deemed to be serious enough? We also don't know much about Robert Riehl's state of mind at the time of this encounter. Was he rested, alert and sober? It would not have been uncommon back in the day for someone with an unsupervised job like this to have a bottle or two stashed among the trees and headstones. I'm not concluding he was under the influence at the time, but it might be very helpful to know if he even imbibed.
|
|
|
Post by lurp173 on Aug 12, 2021 13:08:18 GMT -5
Joe,
My opinion on this is that security guards like Riehl who were working a night shift would carry the old time night watchmans clock to record the time of their prescribed rounds on the property. Their primary concern was being on time for these mechanical time checks. I'm sure that failing to be on time for these "location check-ins" would result in termination of employment. Loosing a job in depression ridden 1932 was probably the last thing anyone (other than Hauptmann) would want.
In his statement Riehl does refer to making a round every hour at different box locations, and that he was due to "make the ring" at 10 P.M. at the Van Courtlandt gate. Upon seeing no obvious damage to cemetery property (and waiting 5 to 8 minutes at the Van Courtlandt gate entrance), he resumed his security round to be on time for the next box location. I would venture to guess that Riehl was probably very much relieved that he was not getting into the middle of something that would interfere with his required rounds.
I agree that Riehl's state of mind at the time of the encounter is an important element here. I can't imagine a more boring job than the one Riehl had at this cemetery on a night shift. If he was so inclined, a flask of "moonshine" would have certainly made the shift go quicker!
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 14, 2021 18:02:50 GMT -5
From Sue, and The Auburn Citizen-Advertiser from May 5, 1932. Not sure about the "tall blond German" description as I don't recall Condon ever talking about CJ's hair colour. And of course, Jafsie's middle name was Francis. Not a great picture of Robert Riehl. but his main features are presented. Just scroll down a bit. Thanks Sue. "Above Is Robert Riehl, a guard at Woodlawn Cemetery, New York City, who was regarded by police as an important witness in the Lindbergh kidnapping case, because he got a clear view of the tall blond German to whom Dr. John P. Condon ("Jafsie") had paid Lindbergh's $50,000 ransom at a rendezvous in the cemetery. Despite the payment, the baby was not returned." Attachments:Robert Riehl.PDF (202.17 KB)
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 15, 2021 8:58:39 GMT -5
At one time John Condon described CJ's hair as "muddy blond."
|
|
|
Post by Wayne on Aug 16, 2021 8:22:13 GMT -5
At one time John Condon described CJ's hair as "muddy blond." Aaron, Condon described CJ's hair as "muddy blond" at the trial, months after Hauptmann was arrested and Condon had seen him in person. If Condon described CJ's hair as "muddy blond" prior to Hauptmann's arrest, please let me the the source. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne on Aug 16, 2021 12:39:09 GMT -5
...please let me "know" the source.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 16, 2021 12:42:01 GMT -5
John Condon described "Cemetery John" twice with admittedly several discrepances, several of them regarding height and weight. These statements are given in official police reports. I will not quote the entire description but Condon did say that CJ "had a rather light complexion and medium light hair." The words "muddy blond" were used that he used at the trial of BRH instead of the "medium light hair" phrase that he had given to the police earlier.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 16, 2021 12:59:55 GMT -5
The two descriptions initially given by Condon to the state police were made in May 1932. These were published in newspapers at that time.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne on Aug 16, 2021 21:17:56 GMT -5
The two descriptions initially given by Condon to the state police were made in May 1932. These were published in newspapers at that time. If you could find the May 1932 newspaper articles that say Condon described CJ's hair as blond, please post them. In May 1932, Condon gave 3 interviews. 1) On May 13, 1932, he was not asked to describe CJ at all. 2) On May 14, 1932, this is how Condon described CJ: He appeared to be about 5 foot nine; shorter than I am; my rough guess of his age would be about 30...About 5 foot 8; weight about 158 pounds; adult; could run fast, and use his hands with dexterity. He had sort of a hatchet face, with prominent cheeks – I mean prominent cheek bones. He had wide, almond eyes. He had a prominent forehead… Q: Did he have a moustache? A: No, and no glasses. 3) On May 20, 1932, this is how Condon described CJ: "...that was the first time and only time I got a glance of the full face. His hat, fedora and was down over his forehead. He looked to be Scandinavian type and his face with rather high cheek bones come down to al- most a pointed chin, smooth face, no blemishes, or blotches. It seemed to me inroads of disease would make it that shape. It seemed to me he was 30 yrs. of age, about 5 ft. 9 in. high, and what we would call a middleweight from 158 maybe to 165 lbs. His nose was straight down the eyes separated a little from the bridge of the nose such as Chinese or Japanese, the almond shape, blueish grey in color was the only glance I got. I thought he had a nice formed mouth by that I mean the lips were not thick it wasn’t poutey, he had a finely formed mouth." So, in the 3 May statements, Condon didn't mention hair color at all (most probably because CJ was wearing a fedora and held his coat up close to his face for most of the time). Again, if you can find the newspaper articles, I would love to see them. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 17, 2021 5:09:34 GMT -5
Thank you for providing more details. As I recall, the original question concerned the color of CJ's hair and whether Condon described the hair as "muddy blond" before the trial. He had seen Hauptmann face to face during the trial and so obviously could have altered his description to fit the accused. Unfortunately Condon's descriptions of CJ came in different versions, as happened with other aspects of the case so it is not always easy to pin his testimonies down to a simple truth. I would, however, call your attention to the report of Officer James A. Avon of the Bronx Police Dept. The report was made on July 19 of 1932, but his interview with John Condon was made on May 14 of that year. At that time Condon stated that the description of CJ as reported in the newspapers in April was inaccurate. He then spoke further with Officer Avon and provided the following details: He said that the man with whom he spoke in Woodlawn Cemetery was "Scandinavian, 30 years old, weighed 158-165 pounds, eyes were bluish gray, hair dirty blond, medium complexion, oval shaped face, prominent forehead, dressed in a brown fedora hat with a dark brown band with a snap brim, black coat light in fabric, pepper and salt trousers, black shoes, appeared to be very nervous and continually coughing." So in this account, he does call CJ's hair a dirty blond, and this happened before he met Hauptmann about three years later, so there is consistency here, not usually characteristic of Condon, and he did not alter this particular detail in order to fit Hauptmann's description.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 17, 2021 5:33:09 GMT -5
In the description CJ's height is given as 5'9". Please add this to the description. Michael has quoted from the Avon report and so could verify the source. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Aug 17, 2021 7:13:13 GMT -5
In the description CJ's height is given as 5'9". Please add this to the description. Michael has quoted from the Avon report and so could verify the source. Thanks. That description was given on May 14, 1932 and is in the Avon report. What's most important, as I pointed out on page 90 of V2, is the claim John was " continually coughing." By the time of the trial it changed into that CJ only coughed " once." Here's it is (sorry for the quality):
|
|
|
Post by Wayne on Aug 17, 2021 7:54:51 GMT -5
In the description CJ's height is given as 5'9". Please add this to the description. Michael has quoted from the Avon report and so could verify the source. Thanks. That description was given on May 14, 1932 and is in the Avon report. What's most important, as I pointed out on page 90 of V2, is the claim John was " continually coughing." By the time of the trial it changed into that CJ only coughed " once." Here's it is (sorry for the quality): Thanks Michael, I don't see this in the May 14, 1932 statement I have, the one made to Assistant DA Breslin. Can you please post your May 14, 1932 statement and the Avon report? Thanks. Also, in the Breslin statement that I have, Condon says this to CJ at Woodlawn: "I said, "You are German," and he said, "I am Scandinavian." Condon is saying he though CJ was German. It seems to me that Condon did give the best description of Hauptmann as CJ as possible. I still don't understand why a co-conspirator would do that.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 17, 2021 8:33:17 GMT -5
That description was given on May 14, 1932 and is in the Avon report. What's most important, as I pointed out on page 90 of V2, is the claim John was " continually coughing." By the time of the trial it changed into that CJ only coughed " once." Here's it is (sorry for the quality): Thanks Michael, I don't see this in the May 14, 1932 statement I have, the one made to Assistant DA Breslin. Can you please post your May 14, 1932 statement and the Avon report? Thanks. Also, in the Breslin statement that I have, Condon says this to CJ at Woodlawn: "I said, "You are German," and he said, "I am Scandinavian." Condon is saying he though CJ was German. It seems to me that Condon did give the best description of Hauptmann as CJ as possible. I still don't understand why a co-conspirator would do that. Thanks Wayne, and Condon's Avon report description of CJ is a pretty close one to the physical attributes of Richard Hauptmann, the same man who had so many other solid connections to the circumstantial physical evidence picture. Hauptmann later denied weight gain in response to Condon's suggestion that CJ (as Hauptmann) had put on weight over the ensuing two-and-a-half year period up to Sept. 1934. I believe he was closer to 180-185 lbs. when arrested, perhaps someone can confirm. Many researchers point to what appeared to Condon to be some kind of chronic respiratory condition with the continual coughing, one that Hauptmann did not have. As a former smoker, (until 1980) I can appreciate how my own deep chest barks during the tail end of a bad cold could have made someone believe I was ready to cough up a lung, when in reality I would have been back running two weeks later and sounding no worse for wear or tear. I've always been a bit surprised as well that not more is made of CJ's claim that he was "Scandinavian", as this sounds like a common ruse. Would CJ not have said something like, "No, I'm Swedish".. or "Norwegian", when asked by Condon if he was German? His reply seems a bit akin to a person being asked if they're Turkish, and they answer, "No, I'm African."
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 17, 2021 9:25:07 GMT -5
Thank you for your help, Michael. As to the "Scandinavian" identity, sometimes a person comes from a territory under dispute and refuses to pay allegiance to the government which has dominion over it. Consider, for example, Alsace-Lorraine--which is considered French though many of the residents considered themselves German and spoke only German. Or Croatia during the World Wars and after. Many natives considered themselves Hungarian. So it's possible that CJ came from a disputed territory which once was Scandinavian, most likely Denmark, but the land was awarded to Germany. Or sometimes the parents come from two different countries, and the children live in one country but assume loyalty to another. Perhaps CJ's first language was not German (and not English either) and spoke in his parents' house in a Scandinavian tongue. His comment to Condon may not have been an intent to deceive, but more likely to identify where his first loyalty lay. (And no, I have no one in mind, at least not yet!)
|
|
|
Post by lurp173 on Aug 17, 2021 13:02:21 GMT -5
Joe, Your post mentions Hauptmann's suspected weight gain from 1932 to 1934. I think this attached photo documents his propensity for weight gain/loss. Photo on right is his mug shot, and one on left is just months later with his defense attorneys at the trial in Flemington. (I would imagine that anyone in the middle of the depression in 1932 would probably have some weight gain by 1934 if they had somehow come into possession of $50,000!!!).
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 17, 2021 13:44:56 GMT -5
Charles Lindbergh commented that Hauptmann had "a magnificent build." He was muscular and physically active, played soccer, and rowed his canoe. He was over 5' 9", nearly 5'10", so it's difficult to think of him as a man with a weight of 158 pounds. Condon's descriptions of Hauptmann do vary, especially in the height and weight categories, sometimes by a couple of inches in the height department and many fewer pounds in weight. Lindbergh's comment, though, surprisingly tells us that Hauptmann had an admirable build, and this remark was made following the trial. Condon, with all his experience in boxing classifications, should have taken a better look.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 17, 2021 14:44:44 GMT -5
One more post regarding a citizen's allegiance to a country, a lesson in history that could relate to Cemetery John's statement about his nationality. The duchy of Schleswig-Holstein was on the northern tip of Germany and borders Denmark. At one time it had been a fiefdom in Denmark but became a part of Prussia. In 1848 Denmark attempted to annex the entire duchy resulting in two wars, one in 1848 and the second ending in a German victory in 1867. Schleswig is the northern part, bordering Denmark, and Holstein the southern; both became part of Prussia. (The German Empire did not exist as such before 1880.) After World War I ended in 1918, a part of the territory was returned to Denmark. This type of conflict is difficult for those who reside in these territories. To whom should they be loyal? Danish was the language spoken most frequently in Schleswig, and German was the language used in Holstein. Although technically most of the territory belonged to Germany in the 1920's, some of those living in that area could well have considered themselves Danish, a part of the world called Scandinavia. Such could have been a problem for CJ if he or his family had lived in Schleswig-Holstein prior to their emigrating to the US. I checked the surnames of several families involved in the kidnapping investigation and found a number of them appearing on the rosters of Schleswig-Holstein. "Hauptmann" is not common but does appear several times. A pilot named Walter (Oesau) Hauptmann from Schleswig-Holstein possessed a record that exceeded that of Manfred von Richtofen (Red Baron). Hauptmann shot down 100 planes in WWII; Red Baron claimed 80 planes in WWI. The name "Henckel" is common in that area. Kloppenburg appears VERY often. Shippel (spelled with one "l") is appears often, especially in business. The name "Mohrdieck" also appears over and over, especially in the town of Steinberg which is right on the border of Germany and Denmark. The point of departure is Hamburg, the town mentioned in a version of the sea shantey written on the table found in South Plainfield N.J. "In Hamburg I wore velvet and silk.. ." Possibly CJ would not want to identify with the German Empire, but preferred, as had his parents, to a land and language of a different origin. His response to Condon's question may not have been intended to mislead; it may have represented his true feeling toward the land of his childhood and the land to which his parents had been loyal.
|
|
|
Post by Mbg on Aug 18, 2021 7:58:51 GMT -5
One more post regarding a citizen's allegiance to a country, a lesson in history that could relate to Cemetery John's statement about his nationality. The duchy of Schleswig-Holstein was on the northern tip of Germany and borders Denmark. At one time it had been a fiefdom in Denmark but became a part of Prussia. In 1848 Denmark attempted to annex the entire duchy resulting in two wars, one in 1848 and the second ending in a German victory in 1867. Schleswig is the northern part, bordering Denmark, and Holstein the southern; both became part of Prussia. (The German Empire did not exist as such before 1880.) After World War I ended in 1918, a part of the territory was returned to Denmark. This type of conflict is difficult for those who reside in these territories. To whom should they be loyal? Danish was the language spoken most frequently in Schleswig, and German was the language used in Holstein. Although technically most of the territory belonged to Germany in the 1920's, some of those living in that area could well have considered themselves Danish, a part of the world called Scandinavia. Such could have been a problem for CJ if he or his family had lived in Schleswig-Holstein prior to their emigrating to the US. I checked the surnames of several families involved in the kidnapping investigation and found a number of them appearing on the rosters of Schleswig-Holstein. "Hauptmann" is not common but does appear several times. A pilot named Walter (Oesau) Hauptmann from Schleswig-Holstein possessed a record that exceeded that of Manfred von Richtofen (Red Baron). Hauptmann shot down 100 planes in WWII; Red Baron claimed 80 planes in WWI. The name "Henckel" is common in that area. Kloppenburg appears VERY often. Shippel (spelled with one "l") is appears often, especially in business. The name "Mohrdieck" also appears over and over, especially in the town of Steinberg which is right on the border of Germany and Denmark. The point of departure is Hamburg, the town mentioned in a version of the sea shantey written on the table found in South Plainfield N.J. "In Hamburg I wore velvet and silk.. ." Possibly CJ would not want to identify with the German Empire, but preferred, as had his parents, to a land and language of a different origin. His response to Condon's question may not have been intended to mislead; it may have represented his true feeling toward the land of his childhood and the land to which his parents had been loyal. Jafsie recalled and imitated CJ's regional Saxon accent perfectly. A person from Schleswig-Holstein or anywhere in Scandinavia would not have sounded or spoken that way (grib for crib, or perfe(g)t (spoken with a silent g) instead of perfect, for example). If CJ was real and Jafsie met and spoke with him in both cemeteries, then he spoke with a guy from Saxony, to the elimination of all other accents. That's how distinct the Saxon accent is, even given variations within the state. This aspect has to be taken into consideration in profiling the cemetery suspect. It should have been back then. Jafsie had a knack for speech mimicking. He even did a perfect Irish brogue on occasion. Native speakers would have recognized which region it represented. With regard to CJ, you are looking in the wrong part of Germany, and I don't think allegiance to a flag or country played a role or mattered here.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on Aug 18, 2021 8:33:42 GMT -5
Joe, Your post mentions Hauptmann's suspected weight gain from 1932 to 1934. I think this attached photo documents his propensity for weight gain/loss. Photo on right is his mug shot, and one on left is just months later with his defense attorneys at the trial in Flemington. (I would imagine that anyone in the middle of the depression in 1932 would probably have some weight gain by 1934 if they had somehow come into possession of $50,000!!!). View AttachmentLurp, and from what appears to be the summer of 1934, Hauptmann with son Manfred, who looks to be about 6-8 months of age here. It seems pretty clear that life is good and Hauptmann is much beefier in build and appearance than his trial-period photos indicate. The FBI Summary Report #2 states his height of 5' 9-1/2" and his weight of 180 lbs., as measured on Sept. 20, 1934, one day after his arrest. It's interesting that Charles Aiello estimated Hauptmann's weight to be 150-155 lbs. when the latter visited his fruit stand on Sept. 5, 1934, only two weeks previous. And Salvatore Levatino, from another fruit stand ransom money-laundering venture on the same day, estimated Hauptmann's height at 5' 10" or 5' 11" with a weight of 150-155 lbs. Perhaps these depositions are most indicative of the relative unreliability of eyewitness accounts regarding weight, especially when dealing with fully dressed individuals.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 9:47:59 GMT -5
Response to accent of CJ: The individual with whom Condon had conversation in Woodlawn may not have been born or been a native to Schleswig, but that may have been the district from which the family originated. People do move around but often take their customs and loyalties with them. That was the reason I included family names in the post. For example, one line of my own family came from Alsace-Lorraine which was annexed by Napoleon to France, but when my family members came to the US they still spoke German and kept their customs. I can appreciate that Condon was expert in detecting accents, but now my question is "If he identified the accent as Saxon, then why would he accept the man's claim that he was Scandinavian?" These two observations are not compatible. t
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 9:58:53 GMT -5
Further, if Condon detected a Saxon accent, then why would he ask "Are you German?" He might better have asked, "What part of Saxony do you come from?" In any case, he did identify the man as Scandinavian in his statement to Detective Avon on May 14, 1936 without any qualification.
|
|
|
Post by aaron on Aug 18, 2021 10:01:22 GMT -5
Sorry about the typo. The date, of course, is May 14, 1932.
|
|
|
Post by Mbg on Aug 18, 2021 10:34:19 GMT -5
Further, if Condon detected a Saxon accent, then why would he ask "Are you German?" He might better have asked, "What part of Saxony do you come from?" In any case, he did identify the man as Scandinavian in his statement to Detective Avon on May 14, 1936 without any qualification. Condon may not have been able to place the accent himself, but an expert in that field, one of Prof. Henry Higgins's caliber , could have been brought in to listen to Jafsie to identify it. My point was to show that Condon was an excellent imitator of different accents. A true expert would have identified it as being spoken in Saxony. Condon either pretended not to be able to tell whether CJ was German or Scandinavian or he really wasn't sure, so he just retold what CJ had allegedly told him. And thank you for the interesting history lesson and the comparison of this flier Hauptmann's and Baron von Richthofen's records, Aaron!
|
|
metje
Detective
Posts: 174
|
Post by metje on Aug 18, 2021 10:36:46 GMT -5
When Condon visited Hauptmann in prison, he claimed that he knew German. Hauptmann then asked Condon to speak in German to him. ("Speak to me in German" spoken by Hauptmann in German) Condon then rattled something off in German, apparently something he had memorized. The guard recording the conversation did not recognize what Condon was reciting and so could not identify it in his report. The Condon/Hauptmann conversation then proceeded in English. The inference is clear, that Condon's knowledge or supposed knowledge of German was not very extensive. I question whether he had a thorough knowledge of the language and could actually identify their various accents. Many regions of the country used dialects, not the standard German, and often those living in different parts of the country could not understand the dialect used by someone from a different area. There was an effort in educating students later when Standard German was used in classes beginning in their early grades in school.
|
|