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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2021 8:19:48 GMT -5
Just finished up watching Ronelle's most recent YouTube video with Judge Pearlman and Jamie. I really enjoy watching her interviews! www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggCaSfLgio My first question is what changes were made to the newest edition of the Judge's book? Anyone know? She doesn't really get into what they were. I could see that she wanted to but the technical problems sidetracked the discussion. The other thing I wanted to bring up is the 3 and 3A Ransom Notes. First and foremost I mean no disrespect by addressing this issue. I know how hard it is to write a book on this topic, and do the amount of research required to do so. It's why I hate to disagree or point out mistakes but sometimes I can't help myself and this is one occasion... Next, I can fully relate to finding something "different" and thinking its a "smoking gun" to an issue or specific angle. But most of the time these things fizzle once evaluating it against everything else that exists. This absolutely must be done. The idea that this "discovery" (I use quotes because this stuff has been discovered repeatedly over the years) trumps everything else is a mistake. As I've repeatedly said, one must accumulate everything there is on a subject after which, once satisfied, then evaluate. It cannot be that after the discovery everything else is simply ruled out as part of a "conspiracy." Conspiracies happen, believe me I know that, but they do not occur everywhere. Now on this March 7th note(s), this angle of the case was investigated ad nauseam. Lt. Finn. SAC Connelley. Leon Ho-age. Etc. So one must have ALL of this information in front of them THEN dismiss it all based on the one source that contradicts everything. I would never say dismiss anything. What I am saying is pursue it but that requires much more research then most are willing to put into it. Inspector Walsh is a legitimate source for anything. But could there be a mistake? Why, for example, wouldn't HE have been the guy to point out what's being alleged here? Here is the run down: 1. March 7th 1PM post mark on the envelope.
2. Notes are received by the early afternoon (approximately 3:30 PM) on March 7 by Lillian Hradecky (nee Rajdl). She was Phelan's secretary and, along with Ruth Littauer (Breckinridge's secretary) they went through the "voluminous quantities" of mail everyday (about 300 letters per day). Both had been instructed to handle everything "carefully" to avoid disturbing fingerprints. According to Phelan it was located in about the third letter in the stack.
3. Hradecky brought the note to Phelan while he was sitting in private office and asked him to look at it "as soon as possible."
4. Phelan read the first note and felt it important enough to "immediately" phone Breckinridge at Hopewell.
5. Phelan went to Princeton Station meeting Breckinridge there at 6PM.
6. Breckinridge brought notes back to Hopewell.
7. Morris Rosner phoned his attorney, Edward Aronow, instructions to place an ad in the New York American. This phone call was placed, not from Hopewell, but the Princeton residence of Joseph Raycroft "the night of March 7."
8. Aronow walked into 323 West 4th Street at 9:30 PM on March 7 and spoke to Armina Woll (spelled "Wool" in other sources) of the Classified Advertising Department and paid for application #490 in order to insert the ad.
9. The ad ran in on both March 8 and March 9.
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Post by wolfman666 on Apr 14, 2021 11:59:32 GMT -5
ronnelle is waiting for me to be interviewed. didnt get a chance yet. i dont agree with pearlmans book
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Post by Wayne on Apr 14, 2021 19:05:44 GMT -5
Just finished up watching Ronelle's most recent YouTube video with Judge Pearlman and Jamie. I really enjoy watching her interviews! www.youtube.com/watch?v=IggCaSfLgio My first question is what changes were made to the newest edition of the Judge's book? Anyone know? She doesn't really get into what they were. I could see that she wanted to but the technical problems sidetracked the discussion. The other thing I wanted to bring up is the 3 and 3A Ransom Notes. First and foremost I mean no disrespect by addressing this issue. I know how hard it is to write a book on this topic, and do the amount of research required to do so. It's why I hate to disagree or point out mistakes but sometimes I can't help myself and this is one occasion... Next, I can fully relate to finding something "different" and thinking its a "smoking gun" to an issue or specific angle. But most of the time these things fizzle once evaluating it against everything else that exists. This absolutely must be done. The idea that this "discovery" (I use quotes because this stuff has been discovered repeatedly over the years) trumps everything else is a mistake. As I've repeatedly said, one must accumulate everything there is on a subject after which, once satisfied, then evaluate. It cannot be that after the discovery everything else is simply ruled out as part of a "conspiracy." Conspiracies happen, believe me I know that, but they do not occur everywhere. Now on this March 7th note(s), this angle of the case was investigated ad nauseam. Lt. Finn. SAC Connelley. Leon Ho-age. Etc. So one must have ALL of this information in front of them THEN dismiss it all based on the one source that contradicts everything. I would never say dismiss anything. What I am saying is pursue it but that requires much more research then most are willing to put into it. Inspector Walsh is a legitimate source for anything. But could there be a mistake? Why, for example, wouldn't HE have been the guy to point out what's being alleged here? Here is the run down: 1. March 7th 1PM post mark on the envelope.
2. Notes are received by the early afternoon (approximately 3:30 PM) on March 7 by Lillian Hradecky (nee Rajdl). She was Phelan's secretary and, along with Ruth Littauer (Breckinridge's secretary) they went through the "voluminous quantities" of mail everyday (about 300 letters per day). Both had been instructed to handle everything "carefully" to avoid disturbing fingerprints. According to Phelan it was located in about the third letter in the stack.
3. Hradecky brought the note to Phelan while he was sitting in private office and asked him to look at it "as soon as possible."
4. Phelan read the first note and felt it important enough to "immediately" phone Breckinridge at Hopewell.
5. Phelan went to Princeton Station meeting Breckinridge there at 6PM.
6. Breckinridge brought notes back to Hopewell.
7. Morris Rosner phoned his attorney, Edward Aronow, instructions to place an ad in the New York American. This phone call was placed, not from Hopewell, but the Princeton residence of Joseph Raycroft "the night of March 7."
8. Aronow walked into 323 West 4th Street at 9:30 PM on March 7 and spoke to Armina Woll (spelled "Wool" in other sources) of the Classified Advertising Department and paid for application #490 in order to insert the ad.
9. The ad ran in on both March 8 and March 9. Michael, I completely agree with your March 7th timeline as does every Lindbergh researcher I've talked with. Everyone. One. Of. Them. Additionally, the book claims that: “The first time Lindbergh left on Monday night March 7, he sped down the private driveway in his own car at 11 p.m., almost running over two troopers assigned to guard the entrance.” At 11:00 P.M., Rosner wrote: "...called CAL at with a progress report. CAL was “highly pleased” –Rosner, ms, p.55 Anne wrote: "Last night (the night of March 7) he [CAL] slept in Col. Henry's room while Aida came in here." –Hour of Gold, Hour of Lead, p232 (letter from Anne to E.L.L.L.) Suspect No. 1's entire timeline premise is based on one article published by Delos Smith stating that 7 (all un-named) "sources" claimed that CAL made 3 "mysterious trips since Monday." The article also states: "There is a remote chances of mistaken identity..." The numerous eyewitness statements of the folks who were at Highfields over the course of March 7-10 (CAL, Anne, Gaglio, Rosenhain, Breckindrige, Condon, Schwarzkopf, Betty Gow, etc.) were totally ignored or misconstrued by the book and/or in interviews.
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Post by Wayne on Apr 14, 2021 19:07:11 GMT -5
ronnelle is waiting for me to be interviewed. didnt get a chance yet. i dont agree with pearlmans book Wolf, I can't wait for this interview!
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Joe
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Posts: 2,640
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Post by Joe on Apr 15, 2021 8:52:57 GMT -5
Regarding Ronelle's interview with Lise Pearl and Jamie Benvenutto, I can't understand for the life of me how anyone who can so painstakingly investigate this level of detail in order to support and maintain such an incredible conspiracy theory, can at the same time wear such blinders by totally failing to recognize the primary involvement of Hauptmann in this case. It's a bit like someone researching a vast multitude of sources both well and little known, to write a book stating their position on the cultural impact of the Beatles, while claiming John Lennon was not a member of the band.
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2021 9:05:32 GMT -5
ronnelle is waiting for me to be interviewed. didnt get a chance yet. i dont agree with pearlmans book I'd pay money to see your interview. It will have it all. Wit, charm, knowledge, and the occasional wisecracks. Can't wait.
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Post by wolfman666 on Apr 16, 2021 17:56:16 GMT -5
i know ronnelle a long time. have the highest respect for her with her website since 1998. we will lock horns very respectfully
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 16, 2021 19:55:23 GMT -5
i know ronnelle a long time. have the highest respect for her with her website since 1998. we will lock horns very respectfully Steve, really looking forward to it. And I wish Ronelle would consider revamping her current discussion forum to the format it once had and was so well know for. It is very much missed by a lot of folks.
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Post by wolfman666 on Apr 17, 2021 10:44:24 GMT -5
yes the old board was the best
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 24, 2021 17:38:11 GMT -5
yes the old board was the best Ronelle's discussion board was certainly much more open, diverse and inclusive than this board, one which seems to have a fairly defined agenda that tends to limit productive growth.
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Post by Michael on Apr 24, 2021 18:21:37 GMT -5
yes the old board was the best Ronelle's discussion board was certainly much more open, diverse and inclusive than this board, one which seems to have a fairly defined agenda that tends to limit productive growth. You were the one who brought up the igloo Joe. Now getting back to my challenge to you. I’m sorry if I hit a nerve. You don’t have to give me your explanation for why there was a box of the same dimensions as the ransom box staged/stashed in a bush across from where a Condon said he handed the ransom box over. Best to let that one go because I like you better when you’re not upset truth be told.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 25, 2021 8:57:08 GMT -5
Ronelle's discussion board was certainly much more open, diverse and inclusive than this board, one which seems to have a fairly defined agenda that tends to limit productive growth. You were the one who brought up the igloo Joe. Now getting back to my challenge to you. I’m sorry if I hit a nerve. You don’t have to give me your explanation for why there was a box of the same dimensions as the ransom box staged/stashed in a bush across from where a Condon said he handed the ransom box over. Best to let that one go because I like you better when you’re not upset truth be told. No nerve Michael, it was an entirely honest and candid comment. And I believe what we’re seeing here once again, is simply the outward projection of your own doubt and denial onto others, primarily myself, based upon what you've already concluded, committed to print and have tended to minister to others. This, despite further rational arguments that oppose and tend to weaken them. You already know my clearly-expressed thoughts regarding Mr. Lantern Jaw's retrieval of the box in the bush. There are a number of potential scenarios here leading up this event to be thoroughly considered and I have no set conclusions yet on exactly what took place. I know you’ve already done that in your inimitable “Harry Walsh on-a-mission” style, but please don't overlook the possibility that by being less inclined to simply eschew and dispose of the thoughts and arguments of others, a more productive discussion will ensue.
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Post by Michael on Apr 25, 2021 10:39:28 GMT -5
No nerve Michael, it was an entirely honest and candid comment. And I believe what we’re seeing here once again, is simply the outward projection of your own doubt and denial onto others, primarily myself, based upon what you've already concluded, committed to print and have tended to minister to others. This, despite further rational arguments that oppose and tend to weaken them. You already know my clearly-expressed thoughts regarding Mr. Lantern Jaw's retrieval of the box in the bush. There are a number of potential scenarios here leading up this event to be thoroughly considered and I have no set conclusions yet on exactly what took place. I know you’ve already done that in your inimitable “Harry Walsh on-a-mission” style, but please don't overlook the possibility that by being less inclined to simply eschew and dispose of the thoughts and arguments of others, a more productive discussion will ensue. I don't know what your explanation is. Frankly, most of what I see is you just talking around it by attempting to neutralize the earlier two accounts. Remembering that Condon wasn't there, why not humor me and lay out exactly what it is that you believe happened on this occasion - and why. I'd also like to know if that wasn't the ransom box then what it may have been, or, if it it was exactly why it was there in the first place.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 27, 2021 9:31:55 GMT -5
No nerve Michael, it was an entirely honest and candid comment. And I believe what we’re seeing here once again, is simply the outward projection of your own doubt and denial onto others, primarily myself, based upon what you've already concluded, committed to print and have tended to minister to others. This, despite further rational arguments that oppose and tend to weaken them. You already know my clearly-expressed thoughts regarding Mr. Lantern Jaw's retrieval of the box in the bush. There are a number of potential scenarios here leading up this event to be thoroughly considered and I have no set conclusions yet on exactly what took place. I know you’ve already done that in your inimitable “Harry Walsh on-a-mission” style, but please don't overlook the possibility that by being less inclined to simply eschew and dispose of the thoughts and arguments of others, a more productive discussion will ensue. I don't know what your explanation is. Frankly, most of what I see is you just talking around it by attempting to neutralize the earlier two accounts. Remembering that Condon wasn't there, why not humor me and lay out exactly what it is that you believe happened on this occasion - and why. I'd also like to know if that wasn't the ransom box then what it may have been, or, if it it was exactly why it was there in the first place. The two earlier Uebel-based accounts, which likely took place within two days of the ransom payment, are important in that they do not indicate any concern over the retrieval of a purported box from a boxwood bush at that time. That event, according to Uebel took place approximately nine days after the ransom payment. Why do you think it might have taken that length of time to recover an item which Condon claimed was turned over to CJ on the evening of April 2? I’m not ruling anything out at this point. I do consider the following possibilities: 1. Condon handed over the ransom box by the hedgerow off Whittemore Ave., as he testified and returned to St. Raymond’s with Coleman and Breckinridge on April 4 to search for clues, most specifically in regards to walking out what he thought was the probable route taken by CJ during their cemetery meeting. Condon’s detour down E. Tremont Ave. did not relate to any extortionist instructions to do so, but out of a genuine sense of personal concern and caution now that he was carrying the 50K. 2. Condon paid the ransom further down E. Tremont Ave., and returned with the empty box in order to allow the extortionist(s) a cleaner getaway, but this move was sanctioned in private by Lindbergh and never revealed to investigators. I understand that Lindbergh did report Condon’s apparent detour to law enforcement, so that action does tend to weaken this possibility. If Lindbergh did not sanction the move, it would tend to lend credence to Condon having aligned himself with the extortionist(s) in secret, but I do not believe he would take such an independent action for his personal gain, in deference to his genuine and never-flagging desire to serve the Lindberghs and be able to return CALjr to them. 3. I don’t quite know what to make of the Uebel-sighted retrieval of what appeared to resemble the ransom box, but the truth is that neither you or I know for certain that this was the original ransom box. Condon had Samuelsohn build the box from specifications based upon the 1820 New Hampshire ballot box given to him by a family friend. How do we know for certain and for whatever reason, it wasn’t that specific box being used for some kind of reenactment of sorts at the cemetery and it had simply been hidden there temporarily? Again, why would it have taken 9 days from the night of the ransom payment, to retrieve such a sensitive piece of evidence if this was knowingly the original ransom box? 4. At the bottom of my personal list of possibilities, is that CJ actually returned the ransom box to St. Raymond’s via an undisclosed communication to Condon, and Uebel happened to witness Al Reich or another close agent retrieving it from the boxwood bush. Just as the baby was “returned” to Mount Rose Hill, the extortionist chose to do this rather than dispose of the box himself. Of course, this would have been an entirely foolish and unnecessary risk taken, but I don’t consider it beyond the realm of Hauptmann’s propensity for risk taking.
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Post by Michael on Apr 27, 2021 19:15:50 GMT -5
This is more like it! The two earlier Uebel-based accounts, which likely took place within two days of the ransom payment, are important in that they do not indicate any concern over the retrieval of a purported box from a boxwood bush at that time. That event, according to Uebel took place approximately nine days after the ransom payment. Why do you think it might have taken that length of time to recover an item which Condon claimed was turned over to CJ on the evening of April 2? I’m not ruling anything out at this point. This is what I hypothesized in V2 based on when we know that actual "walk-through" occurred. What I disagree with you about is the "lack" of concern about the box/bush. Uebel said that during the first eyewitness account he saw the "dark" guy with the "jaw" along with "three or four" other people. According to him, they appeared to be "looking for someone." Makes sense if one doesn't know there was a box hidden in that bush doesn't it? So at the time of the event that's what he believed. I've surmised since the same dude who's at the first event is the guy who retrieved the box in the last one, then they may have been looking for " something" (BOX). One may not like this idea but I can't see how they could completely dismiss it under the circumstances. Next, I still stick to my original position that we really don't know when the third event took place and think they waited for focus on this particular spot to die down before going to the bush to retrieve it. My responses to your points. Despite our difference of opinions, I like how you are weighing your options: 1. Coleman testified at the Grand Jury that he knew what had happened because on the Monday after the payment Condon showed him. It's my opinion this was done for purposes of laying out the official narrative. If Condon was on the level, which I believe is about 1,000,000,000 to 1, then perhaps he was also honestly looking for clues as well. He gave at least three different explanations for his detour. I see that you selected the one that best suits you. For me, none of them make a lick of sense, but once considering Condon seemed to forget each as he told another later, it definitely proves he was lying. 2. Okay. But if you are willing to accept it was done with Lindbergh's blessing you must remember that it was Lindbergh himself who detailed to the the Cops Condon's strange movements that night. If he hadn't, no one would even be talking about it. So if he's in on it, that's a very strange thing to do by alerting police to it. As we can see by the police sketch on Lamb's memo, they clearly considered he had done exactly what I have suggested. Again, this suspicion can only exist if Lindbergh reveals this information. Next, it is a very real possibility that he was told by the Extortionists to do this, then he lied about it for any number of reasons. But my biggest question to you is why you wouldn't consider that he's not as "genuine" as you think he is. You simply flat out refuse to consider a very real possibility which I just cannot understand especially considering the countless lies this man told. Countless.
3. This is where you must put everything together. But even if we didn't know anything else this is a hard one to get around. In short, there doesn't seem to be a reasonable explanation for it. This idea that it was a "prop" for a re-enactment seems far-fetched. Their cars where nearby so there would be absolutely no reason to hide it anywhere. And for what reason? An empty replica. And who built it if it was? Christ, look at all the trouble Condon went through just to build the real one. Besides, how heavy could it have been? Even putting it down behind a tombstone doesn't make sense. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. No doubt in my mind this was the ransom box. Again, I've already answered why I believe they waited. Had they found it on the 3rd it would have been gone by then. They missed their opportunity. And if Condon was their source they couldn't consult him because he was off looking for the Boat. I say "IF" because I expect some might consider that John himself put it there which I see is in your point #4.
4. I don't think anyone would have "returned" the box after the fact. Any suggestion that John put it there would have had to have occurred on the night in question. Even if Condon was aware, the child was not found dead yet. So I'd expect people to excuse his lies by saying he believed the child's life was at stake. After CJr is found dead, I wouldn't expect the guy to then say he lied - especially when he was heavily suspected like he was at that point.
PS. SAC Harvey wrote: " The kidnapers trusted Condon. Surely they knew Reich accompanied Condon on his missions. Why did they not insist that Condon go alone? They even sent the taxi driver to Condon's own home." See what he's saying here? He believed they trusted Reich too.
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Joe
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Posts: 2,640
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Post by Joe on May 1, 2021 10:10:12 GMT -5
The two earlier Uebel-based accounts, which likely took place within two days of the ransom payment, are important in that they do not indicate any concern over the retrieval of a purported box from a boxwood bush at that time. That event, according to Uebel took place approximately nine days after the ransom payment. Why do you think it might have taken that length of time to recover an item which Condon claimed was turned over to CJ on the evening of April 2? I’m not ruling anything out at this point. This is what I hypothesized in V2 based on when we know that actual "walk-through" occurred. What I disagree with you about is the "lack" of concern about the box/bush. Uebel said that during the first eyewitness account he saw the "dark" guy with the "jaw" along with "three or four" other people. According to him, they appeared to be "looking for someone." Makes sense if one doesn't know there was a box hidden in that bush doesn't it? So at the time of the event that's what he believed. I've surmised since the same dude who's at the first event is the guy who retrieved the box in the last one, then they may have been looking for " something" (BOX). One may not like this idea but I can't see how they could completely dismiss it under the circumstances. Next, I still stick to my original position that we really don't know when the third event took place and think they waited for focus on this particular spot to die down before going to the bush to retrieve it. Regarding the first visit to St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment, which seems most likely took place on Sunday, April 3, Coleman could well have advised directly about this cemetery and the general location of the ransom drop, by Reich who gathered the information from Condon’s previous evening’s accounting of events. As Reich was present at the meeting for the Washington-coordinated search effort at the Morrow townhouse prior to him, Lindbergh, Breckinridge, Irey and Condon departing for the airport at Bridgeport, CT, it seems reasonable this would have been the time and place for this information to have been provided. With Coleman having been essentially guaranteed “first news rights” for his sensitive treatment of Condon’s “Jafsie” identity and other confidential information, it makes sense that he (Coleman) would have been one of the first people on the scene. As I’ve noted previously, the men observed by Uebel were not engaged in the act of searching bushes or looking for anything hidden, so I’d venture any efforts to turn up a hidden box, if there was in fact one there at that time, would have had to have waited until Condon was personally on the scene to pinpoint the location. So again, why does Condon, when he does first appear at St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment with Coleman, not proceed directly to the bush you claim he hid the box in? Would this not have been the time to retrieve it with no problems? Clearly, he seems more interested in pacing out what may have been CJ’s path within the cemetery, and Breckinridge also states this was Condon’s intention for his visit with Coleman. You’ve posited that they were waiting for “focus on this particular spot to die down”, before retrieving the box you believe was hidden on the night of the ransom payment. What focus? I don’t buy this, because there would have been no focus on the spot immediately following the ransom payment. As well, no one in the first groups on the scene, apparently was taking any deliberate precautions about being observed in the middle of the day. No one there probably would have even known Uebel was watching from a considerable distance with field glasses on these occasions. And if you’ve hidden something that constitutes critical case evidence, I believe your most important move would be to retrieve it at the first opportunity, and not let it sit unprotected for over a week in a boxwood bush. Do you have any thoughts, as to who the other two or three men might have been besides Coleman, and possibly Reich on that first visit? I believe these unidentified men were of some official investigative capacity relating to the events of the night before at the Morrow townhouse, and that one of these men could well have been Frank Wilson.
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Post by Michael on May 1, 2021 19:51:28 GMT -5
Regarding the first visit to St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment, which seems most likely took place on Sunday, April 3, Coleman could well have advised directly about this cemetery and the general location of the ransom drop, by Reich who gathered the information from Condon’s previous evening’s accounting of events. As Reich was present at the meeting for the Washington-coordinated search effort at the Morrow townhouse prior to him, Lindbergh, Breckinridge, Irey and Condon departing for the airport at Bridgeport, CT, it seems reasonable this would have been the time and place for this information to have been provided. It's hard to believe we agree on some things. I believe the first account was April 3rd too. I also believe it was Reich. However, one could argue that Uebel never identified him which could be just as good as saying it wasn't him. It blows my mind that he was never asked to identify either Coleman or Reich. Next, although the Maroon car was later identified by tags, we don't know it was the same car he originally saw. Most likely it was but still - we don't "know" that. We also agree that Reich was able to get certain information about the drop. So again, as I've said before, it makes sense that he went there to help out Condon. But honestly, who spends 3 to 4 hours in this situation? What good is being there without Lindbergh and especially Condon? With Coleman having been essentially guaranteed “first news rights” for his sensitive treatment of Condon’s “Jafsie” identity and other confidential information, it makes sense that he (Coleman) would have been one of the first people on the scene. As I’ve noted previously, the men observed by Uebel were not engaged in the act of searching bushes or looking for anything hidden, so I’d venture any efforts to turn up a hidden box, if there was in fact one there at that time, would have had to have waited until Condon was personally on the scene to pinpoint the location. So again, why does Condon, when he does first appear at St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment with Coleman, not proceed directly to the bush you claim he hid the box in? Would this not have been the time to retrieve it with no problems? Clearly, he seems more interested in pacing out what may have been CJ’s path within the cemetery, and Breckinridge also states this was Condon’s intention for his visit with Coleman. Well, Condon told that to every Newspaper man who called upon him but Coleman was different. They were friends. And yes, it does make sense that he was with Condon and Breckinridge during the walk-thru. Again, they were there for hours "searching for someone" and that somehow means, to you, they weren't "looking for anything hidden?" Seriously? It's not a leap by any stretch, and it seems like you are ignoring a very real possibility by stating something you couldn't possibly know. And this idea that Condon would "pin-point" the location of the hidden box while he was there makes ZERO sense. You are approaching this from an honest perspective. But don't people hide things for a reason? And so, if Breckinridge is being fed some BS why in the hell would Condon walk over to the bush and collect the ransom box at that time? Of course he wouldn't. You’ve posited that they were waiting for “focus on this particular spot to die down”, before retrieving the box you believe was hidden on the night of the ransom payment. What focus? I don’t buy this, because there would have been no focus on the spot immediately following the ransom payment. As well, no one in the first groups on the scene, apparently was taking any deliberate precautions about being observed in the middle of the day. No one there probably would have even known Uebel was watching from a considerable distance with field glasses on these occasions. And if you’ve hidden something that constitutes critical case evidence, I believe your most important move would be to retrieve it at the first opportunity, and not let it sit unprotected for over a week in a boxwood bush. Once Lindbergh and Breckinridge were back, Condon had to believe the Police knew about everything. Sadly, once police knew the press knew too because that's how they supplemented their pay. That's how it worked. The opportunity was on the 3rd while everyone was away. Do you have any thoughts, as to who the other two or three men might have been besides Coleman, and possibly Reich on that first visit? I believe these unidentified men were of some official investigative capacity relating to the events of the night before at the Morrow townhouse, and that one of these men could well have been Frank Wilson. No. It wasn't the police or it would have been noted somewhere. What little we know comes from Uebel, Coleman, and Breckinridge.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 2, 2021 9:25:51 GMT -5
Regarding the first visit to St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment, which seems most likely took place on Sunday, April 3, Coleman could well have advised directly about this cemetery and the general location of the ransom drop, by Reich who gathered the information from Condon’s previous evening’s accounting of events. As Reich was present at the meeting for the Washington-coordinated search effort at the Morrow townhouse prior to him, Lindbergh, Breckinridge, Irey and Condon departing for the airport at Bridgeport, CT, it seems reasonable this would have been the time and place for this information to have been provided. It's hard to believe we agree on some things. I believe the first account was April 3rd too. I also believe it was Reich. However, one could argue that Uebel never identified him which could be just as good as saying it wasn't him. It blows my mind that he was never asked to identify either Coleman or Reich. Next, although the Maroon car was later identified by tags, we don't know it was the same car he originally saw. Most likely it was but still - we don't "know" that. We also agree that Reich was able to get certain information about the drop. So again, as I've said before, it makes sense that he went there to help out Condon. But honestly, who spends 3 to 4 hours in this situation? What good is being there without Lindbergh and especially Condon? Hard to believe? Not really, and despite some essential differences, it’s always nice to be able to slowly push one of the smaller detail millstones forward.
I’d venture it was Coleman’s maroon Hupmobile that Uebel saw the whole time. Uebel seems to have had a pretty sharp set of observing and recollection skills as a Special Officer who obviously rounded out his work day with maintenance jobs as well. He identified Breckinridge’s Ford touring car from the get go at a considerable distance, despite the fact this vehicle with its rather common green colour could well have been confused with a number of other different economy makes from that time. A Hupmobile Brougham had a pretty distinctive profile and I'd have to think maroon was not as common as other colours. Believe it or not, there were approximately 50 exterior colour options for a 1929 Hupmobile that included Mulberry Maroon, probably the most “statement colour” of the entire lot. Even though Coleman’s model was a 1928, the colour chart for that year would have been similar during this affluential twenties period.
paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?make=Hupmobile&year=1929&con=ky&rows=50
The good about being there right away, in my estimation is that had anything been inadvertently dropped by CJ or disturbances been made, that item could be retrieved or at least considered to be something of value and noted, or even photographed if required. Regardless, there WERE individuals connected to the case present at that critical St. Raymond’s location on the day following the ransom payment, and obviously they felt it was important enough to remain on the scene for about three or four hours. I feel Coleman would have been chomping at the bit just to be able to scope out the scene for immediate impressions towards any articles he might have wanted to print later. In any case, I don’t feel the group would have been there at all if it weren’t for the approval of government individuals of an investigative capacity, present at the Morrow townhouse on the night of April 2, and that at least two of these individuals would have been present at St. Raymond’s on April 3, for the above investigative reasons and as observers. That’s why I speculate one of those individuals could have been Frank J. Wilson. (Joe)With Coleman having been essentially guaranteed “first news rights” for his sensitive treatment of Condon’s “Jafsie” identity and other confidential information, it makes sense that he (Coleman) would have been one of the first people on the scene. As I’ve noted previously, the men observed by Uebel were not engaged in the act of searching bushes or looking for anything hidden, so I’d venture any efforts to turn up a hidden box, if there was in fact one there at that time, would have had to have waited until Condon was personally on the scene to pinpoint the location. So again, why does Condon, when he does first appear at St. Raymond’s after the ransom payment with Coleman, not proceed directly to the bush you claim he hid the box in? Would this not have been the time to retrieve it with no problems? Clearly, he seems more interested in pacing out what may have been CJ’s path within the cemetery, and Breckinridge also states this was Condon’s intention for his visit with Coleman. Well, Condon told that to every Newspaper man who called upon him but Coleman was different. They were friends. And yes, it does make sense that he was with Condon and Breckinridge during the walk-thru. Again, they were there for hours "searching for someone" and that somehow means, to you, they weren't "looking for anything hidden?" Seriously? It's not a leap by any stretch, and it seems like you are ignoring a very real possibility by stating something you couldn't possibly know. And this idea that Condon would "pin-point" the location of the hidden box while he was there makes ZERO sense. You are approaching this from an honest perspective. But don't people hide things for a reason? And so, if Breckinridge is being fed some BS why in the hell would Condon walk over to the bush and collect the ransom box at that time? Of course he wouldn't. So what do you think the “something” was that they were looking for? I take Uebel’s comment about them looking for “someone” pretty lightly here, even though you seem to have extracted your own meaning for that to mean “something.” He had no idea who or what or who they were looking for, period. For all we know the group observed by Uebel could have spent a good part of their walkthrough just looking official and feeling important, or even shooting the breeze. At times, kind of like suits walking through a warehouse on a company tour. We don’t know for sure. But I’m pretty certain that not one of those guys would have wanted to overlook anything obvious at that critical time immediately following the ransom payment.
It would have been dark and desolate down Whittemore Ave., where Condon and CJ met up and while Condon might not have been able to “pinpoint” the location of the ransom box right away in broad daylight, (if in fact he did hide it as you have concluded) he would have had a much easier time of it than someone whom he had merely explained the position to. Regarding Condon’s and Breckinridge’s truthful relationship, here you appear to be doing exactly what you are accusing me of. You’re coming from a position of Breckinridge having been fed BS by Condon as a baseline. If you can prove this by first addressing each and every one of your theory’s obvious pitfalls and landmines, rather than by simply embracing a select assortment of clouds in the sky that appeal to you, then like the April 3 walkthrough specifics, there is something to work with going forward. (Joe) You’ve posited that they were waiting for “focus on this particular spot to die down”, before retrieving the box you believe was hidden on the night of the ransom payment. What focus? I don’t buy this, because there would have been no focus on the spot immediately following the ransom payment. As well, no one in the first groups on the scene, apparently was taking any deliberate precautions about being observed in the middle of the day. No one there probably would have even known Uebel was watching from a considerable distance with field glasses on these occasions. And if you’ve hidden something that constitutes critical case evidence, I believe your most important move would be to retrieve it at the first opportunity, and not let it sit unprotected for over a week in a boxwood bush. Once Lindbergh and Breckinridge were back, Condon had to believe the Police knew about everything. Sadly, once police knew the press knew too because that's how they supplemented their pay. That's how it worked. The opportunity was on the 3rd while everyone was away. Okay, as far as I can tell at least, you’ve just disappeared again down that conspiratorial rabbit hole of your own making. The opportunity for the “ransom box retrieval” was on April 3rd? How so? (Joe)Do you have any thoughts, as to who the other two or three men might have been besides Coleman, and possibly Reich on that first visit? I believe these unidentified men were of some official investigative capacity relating to the events of the night before at the Morrow townhouse, and that one of these men could well have been Frank Wilson. No. It wasn't the police or it would have been noted somewhere. What little we know comes from Uebel, Coleman, and Breckinridge. I wasn’t referring to the “police” per say, but those individuals of an investigative capacity within the many federal government officials who were at the Morrow townhouse on the evening of April 3. And don’t forget that this major midnight meeting and intended rescue mission went all the way to the top, ie. Washington, D.C. for approval and allocation of government men and valuable resources. I’d suggest here you don’t overlook how your virtual beliefs that i) Lindbergh criminally conspired to eliminate his son and, ii) Condon criminally conspired to align with the kidnapper(s)/extortionist(s) for his personal gain, two rather disparate plots, rub up to and fit into the above pretty massive and generous participation of Uncle Sam at large. For this specifically, I would recommend you try not to reference only your experience with the criminal mind through your experience dealing with felons, as I feel you will only limit yourself to certain possibilities here. (Joe)
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Post by Michael on May 2, 2021 18:42:57 GMT -5
[Hard to believe? Not really, and despite some essential differences, it’s always nice to be able to slowly push one of the smaller detail millstones forward. I’d venture it was Coleman’s maroon Hupmobile that Uebel saw the whole time. Uebel seems to have had a pretty sharp set of observing and recollection skills as a Special Officer who obviously rounded out his work day with maintenance jobs as well. He identified Breckinridge’s Ford touring car from the get go at a considerable distance, despite the fact this vehicle with its rather common green colour could well have been confused with a number of other different economy makes from that time. A Hupmobile Brougham had a pretty distinctive profile and I'd have to think maroon was not as common as other colours. Believe it or not, there were approximately 50 exterior colour options for a 1929 Hupmobile that included Mulberry Maroon, probably the most “statement colour” of the entire lot. Even though Coleman’s model was a 1928, the colour chart for that year would have been similar during this affluential twenties period. paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?make=Hupmobile&year=1929&con=ky&rows=50The good about being there right away, in my estimation is that had anything been inadvertently dropped by CJ or disturbances been made, that item could be retrieved or at least considered to be something of value and noted, or even photographed if required. Regardless, there WERE individuals connected to the case present at that critical St. Raymond’s location on the day following the ransom payment, and obviously they felt it was important enough to remain on the scene for about three or four hours. I feel Coleman would have been chomping at the bit just to be able to scope out the scene for immediate impressions towards any articles he might have wanted to print later. In any case, I don’t feel the group would have been there at all if it weren’t for the approval of government individuals of an investigative capacity, present at the Morrow townhouse on the night of April 2, and that at least two of these individuals would have been present at St. Raymond’s on April 3, for the above investigative reasons and as observers. That’s why I speculate one of those individuals could have been Frank J. Wilson. (Joe) On the car I think I've already said enough on it. We basically both feel comfortable with the identities of two of the people Uebel saw during his first account. That's not proof of course, but its an important starting point for our debate/discussion. Still, what I've said needed to be pointed out nevertheless.
No - its NOT good for people unaccompanied by police to be romping around a crime scene. They had no business looking for "clues." But if you do believe this how can you say they weren't looking for the box? The Ransom Box isn't a "clue?" Next, we do not know who the other men were. If you took into consideration all known sources I don't think you'd even suggest Treasury Agents were behind Reich and Coleman going to the Cemetery to look for "clues." This other idea, that the unknown men present were actual T-Men makes even less sense. So running with these ideas to the point where you've made them a "given" in order to explain it away isn't a legitimate position. Unless of course you have a source I could consider. If not then its nothing more then mere to wild speculation at this point.
So what do you think the “something” was that they were looking for? I take Uebel’s comment about them looking for “someone” pretty lightly here, even though you seem to have extracted your own meaning for that to mean “something.” He had no idea who or what or who they were looking for, period. For all we know the group observed by Uebel could have spent a good part of their walkthrough just looking official and feeling important, or even shooting the breeze. At times, kind of like suits walking through a warehouse on a company tour. We don’t know for sure. But I’m pretty certain that not one of those guys would have wanted to overlook anything obvious at that critical time immediately following the ransom payment. It would have been dark and desolate down Whittemore Ave., where Condon and CJ met up and while Condon might not have been able to “pinpoint” the location of the ransom box right away in broad daylight, (if in fact he did hide it as you have concluded) he would have had a much easier time of it than someone whom he had merely explained the position to. Regarding Condon’s and Breckinridge’s truthful relationship, here you appear to be doing exactly what you are accusing me of. You’re coming from a position of Breckinridge having been fed BS by Condon as a baseline. If you can prove this by first addressing each and every one of your theory’s obvious pitfalls and landmines, rather than by simply embracing a select assortment of clouds in the sky that appeal to you, then like the April 3 walkthrough specifics, there is something to work with going forward. (Joe) Yes. I believe they went there for a purpose. If it was just to scope out the scene, without Condon, it makes little sense to mill around for hours not really knowing exacts or specifics. One knows if someone is "looking" around. Obviously, without knowing there was a box stashed in that bush I would expect he considered they were looking for a person. This was the Crime of the Century. What occurred there the FBI didn't even know about it at the time and it wasn't being shared. This idea they wanted to be noticed as it related to this crime makes little sense. Considering your point about Breckinridge.... Both he and Lindbergh didn't trust Condon at this time. It's why Lindbergh replaced Reich for the drop in the first place, and why Breckinridge made up phoney letters to see what Condon would do with them. We have documentation to prove that. So based on this, I do not believe he was part of the ruse here. So no - its not the same because I'm basing my position on actual sources.
Okay, as far as I can tell at least, you’ve just disappeared again down that conspiratorial rabbit hole of your own making. The opportunity for the “ransom box retrieval” was on April 3rd? How so? (Joe) Joe look up "conspiracy." It does nothing to assist your position by using it here as if I'm an idiot or something. Conspiracies are quite common. If you called me on the phone right now and asked to borrow my car so you could steal a lawn mower and my reply was "c'mon over the keys are in the ignition," we've both just entered into a conspiracy.
The best chance was to retrieve it right away while Lindbergh, Breckinridge, and Condon were away. It's basic common sense.
I wasn’t referring to the “police” per say, but those individuals of an investigative capacity within the many federal government officials who were at the Morrow townhouse on the evening of April 3. And don’t forget that this major midnight meeting and intended rescue mission went all the way to the top, ie. Washington, D.C. for approval and allocation of government men and valuable resources. I’d suggest here you don’t overlook how your virtual beliefs that i) Lindbergh criminally conspired to eliminate his son and, ii) Condon criminally conspired to align with the kidnapper(s)/extortionist(s) for his personal gain, two rather disparate plots, rub up to and fit into the above pretty massive and generous participation of Uncle Sam at large. For this specifically, I would recommend you try not to reference only your experience with the criminal mind through your experience dealing with felons, as I feel you will only limit yourself to certain possibilities here. (Joe) I would submit that if you read the sources it makes little sense. They wanted to KILL Condon. So here you believe they formulated a plan to take his two closest friends back to the crime scene so they would walk all over it? Next, Lindbergh and Breckinridge were there. So it would have had to go through them. If it did, why didn't Breck testify to this at the Grand Jury? Why isn't it in the Wilson, Irey, or Madden sources? You think Wilson would back-stab Keaten? No, he wouldn't have. So that would mean the NJSP knew about it too. But no source? Look at the footprint visits. BOTH included Breckinridge who was calling the shots as Lindbergh's representative. Look at who was there: NJSP, NYPD, and Treasury. Now look at the Uebel account. They hadn't a CLUE about these events. One got cleared up during the Grand Jury testimony. That's it. Now, again, I've always said I haven't seen everything there is out there. There could be a report I haven't read that reveals new information. But we cannot evaluate what we do not have. It's also a two-way street. For example, a PI named "Siller" worked for Fawcett. I only have one letter that he authored. That means there are reports either in the Fawcett Collection, in an attic somewhere, or lost forever. Should I consider one of those reports include an interview with Wilson where he admitted Condon was involved? See how that works?
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Post by Wayne on May 3, 2021 13:25:45 GMT -5
Hi Michael,
You know I’m on the fence with Condon, so I’ve got to ask you some friendly questions about the Uebel angle.
1) Regarding Uebel’s claim that he saw Condon and gang remove the ransom box from St. Raymond's days after the ransom was paid:
Since Uebel’s was unsure about the date of this sighting, isn’t it possible that Uebel witnessed the April 4th event when Gunset, Breckinridge, Condon, Reich, Hacker, and Kubler were at St. Raymond’s when Ralph Hacker was making the plaster of Paris footprint?
I’ve taken many plaster of Paris footprints myself and I’ve always used a wooden frame (roughly 6” x 7” x 14”) to make the cast (it's so the plaster stays in one place and doesn't flow all over the ground like a big pancake).
Couldn’t this wooden frame have been what Uebel saw from “two blocks away” and mistaken it as the ransom box? Hacker could easily have been carrying this wooden frame as he and the others explored the area with Condon.
2) Uebel’s first sighting of Condon was in the afternoon of April 1st from “300 yards away”. Even though he said he used binoculars, have you tried to identify someone you know from 3 football fields away with binoculars?
3) If Uebel - “Special Officer (badge 1097)” - did see something that he thought was suspicious, especially someone removing a “box” from his cemetery, wasn’t it his job to confront them, yet he did nothing? Three times.
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Post by Michael on May 3, 2021 18:47:08 GMT -5
1) Regarding Uebel’s claim that he saw Condon and gang remove the ransom box from St. Raymond's days after the ransom was paid: Since Uebel’s was unsure about the date of this sighting, isn’t it possible that Uebel witnessed the April 4th event when Gunset, Breckinridge, Condon, Reich, Hacker, and Kubler were at St. Raymond’s when Ralph Hacker was making the plaster of Paris footprint? I’ve taken many plaster of Paris footprints myself and I’ve always used a wooden frame (roughly 6” x 7” x 14”) to make the cast (it's so the plaster stays in one place and doesn't flow all over the ground like a big pancake). Couldn’t this wooden frame have been what Uebel saw from “two blocks away” and mistaken it as the ransom box? Hacker could easily have been carrying this wooden frame as he and the others explored the area with Condon. 2) Uebel’s first sighting of Condon was in the afternoon of April 1st from “300 yards away”. Even though he said he used binoculars, have you tried to identify someone you know from 3 football fields away with binoculars? 3) If Uebel - “Special Officer (badge 1097)” - did see something that he thought was suspicious, especially someone removing a “box” from his cemetery, wasn’t it his job to confront them, yet he did nothing? Three times. 1. I think you are a little confused about the events Wayne. Understandably so. Uebel never saw Condon retrieve the box. Next, his accounts were based on his payday. So when Detective Avon interviewed him on April 14, the dates were based on whatever day he believed he was paid. Later when Lewis and Ho-age interviewed him he amended the middle sighting to "Monday." It's two years later although I believe that's when it occurred. I believe this because it matches with Condon's testimony, Breckinridge's testimony, and Coleman's account in Vigil. There's little differences, like Condon said in the "morning" and Breckinridge, I believe, said around noon. Uebel had it around 2:30PM. But that's where I'm at. Now, on the first account which I believe happened on the 3rd, did not include Condon either. Next, the footprint event happened at night. They got cold feet thinking they'd be arrested for being in the cemetery at that time trying to take the print. So they returned to Condon's house and called up Madden at 9:45PM (April 5). Breckinridge arranged for a NY Cop to accompany them for the next try which occurred on the 6th because it was after midnight by the time they went back. I've seen nothing in any report concerning a "frame." That doesn't mean there wasn't one, but if there was I can't imagine why it would be mistaken for a "box." Furthermore, why they would have hidden it across the street in that bush? Think about it. There was a group of people there, they took the cast but were supposed to have left a frame behind? Why? And why hide it? And why bother to come back for it? Makes no sense to me. Next, look at the sketch on page 264. You are combining events when you claim Uebel was "two blocks away." The event he claims occurred on the 11th, when the man exited the car and retrieved that box, he claimed to have been "200 feet" at the time. 2. You've got this mixed up a little here too. When he saw Condon, which I believe occurred on April 4, he was at the cement mixer when everyone pulled up. As Condon moved he actually walked right past him. Again, the map shows this better than I can explain it. On top of that, he knew Condon " since he was a boy." 3. I'm not sure what his exact duties were. According to Riehl, his job was to prevent grave robbers and vandals. So considering for a moment that Uebel had the same duty, he noticed something strange and observed. It's not like he looked then ignored what was going on. Did anything they did rise to the level of a crime? The last event was a car pulling up, a man jumping out, going to a bush that wasn't in the cemetery, grabbing a box, getting back into the car which then drove away. Being 200 feet away at the time, I'm not sure what he could have done or if he even had cause to do anything. He was observant, made a mental note of it, and was able to provide police with key details. Combined with all the other inconvenient details, to include Lindbergh's account and Condon's multiple different unlikely explanations for that "strange detour" he took - it ruins the historical narrative about what occurred the night of April 2nd. Condon pulled a "bait and switch," of that I have no doubt.
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Post by Wayne on May 3, 2021 20:16:20 GMT -5
Thanks Michael!
Yes, I am confused, but I'm trying to get a timeline from your Volume 2.
Where did you find Ralph Hacker making the plaster cast at night? How would they have done that? Condon said the night of the ransom exchange was pitch black. Did they use flashlights? Is there an account of this?
Thanks.
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Post by Michael on May 4, 2021 9:35:54 GMT -5
Where did you find Ralph Hacker making the plaster cast at night? How would they have done that? Condon said the night of the ransom exchange was pitch black. Did they use flashlights? Is there an account of this? Gunset Report puts the men in the cemetery making the cast after 1AM. Madden mentions the men having flashlights. The picture Kubler took appears to have been made at night, but I don't know if that can be proven just by looking at it. Regardless, we know they were in the cemetery at night because of the documentation. Their first trip was sometime before 9:45PM because Breckinridge made that call to Madden upon their return to Condon's home at this time, and their second was sometime after 1AM. imgur.com/0FMls3JSpeaking of this footprint... We know it was either an 8 or 8-1/2 size but didn't match Hauptmann's shoe which was a 9. Next, some say the actual print was even smaller due to how the cast was made. This creates a dilemma for those who believe Hauptmann was CJ. Joe believes this. And yet, Condon specifically pointed out this print as having been made by Cemetery John. So how to reconcile this? There's no need, of course, since we know this whole scenario was bogus in the first place. So to those who believe Hauptmann was CJ - fear not! Condon tried to protect him throughout. Of course it may not have been him all along but this whole episode was about proving who CJ was not. Kind of like the bogus "lump" on CJ's thumb. Talk about overkill. And yet, here we are with people still defending this guy as if he was a Saint.
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Post by Wayne on May 4, 2021 10:23:07 GMT -5
Where did you find Ralph Hacker making the plaster cast at night? How would they have done that? Condon said the night of the ransom exchange was pitch black. Did they use flashlights? Is there an account of this? Gunset Report puts the men in the cemetery making the cast after 1AM. Madden mentions the men having flashlights. The picture Kubler took appears to have been made at night, but I don't know if that can be proven just by looking at it. Regardless, we know they were in the cemetery at night because of the documentation. Their first trip was sometime before 9:45PM because Breckinridge made that call to Madden upon their return to Condon's home at this time, and their second was sometime after 1AM. imgur.com/0FMls3JSpeaking of this footprint... We know it was either an 8 or 8-1/2 size but didn't match Hauptmann's shoe which was a 9. Next, some say the actual print was even smaller due to how the cast was made. This creates a dilemma for those who believe Hauptmann was CJ. Joe believes this. And yet, Condon specifically pointed out this print as having been made by Cemetery John. So how to reconcile this? There's no need, of course, since we know this whole scenario was bogus in the first place. So to those who believe Hauptmann was CJ - fear not! Condon tried to protect him throughout. Of course it may not have been him all along but this whole episode was about proving who CJ was not. Kind of like the bogus "lump" on CJ's thumb. Talk about overkill. And yet, here we are with people still defending this guy as if he was a Saint. Thanks Michael! I just wasn't aware that Hacker made the cast at night, but there it is in your Vol. 2, page 281. At "1:00 AM" and with "flashlights"! Nice work. And so much for the cemetery security, huh? Question about the shoe size. On page 283 of Vol. 2, it looks like it's written that the shoe is 11" (length) and 5" (width). If that's the case, it definitely did not match BRH's shoe size.
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Post by Michael on May 4, 2021 10:32:30 GMT -5
And so much for the cemetery security, huh? I'm not sure if they were approached by Security or not. I've assumed this was why they left the first time but its hard to know without a definite source. Likewise during the actual casting. Maybe one approached and the NY Cop told them it was okay. Or perhaps not. But that's what he was there for so the concern existed. Question about the shoe size. On page 283 of Vol. 2, it looks like it's written that the shoe is 11" (length) and 5" (width). If that's the case, it definitely did not match BRH's shoe size. I don't know what to make of this to be honest. It was definitely taken by police at St. Raymond's but the actual measurements never made any sense to me considering all the reports I have say the print was an 8 or 8-1/2. Regardless, police said it did not match Hauptmann's print.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 4, 2021 10:49:56 GMT -5
Gunset Report puts the men in the cemetery making the cast after 1AM. Madden mentions the men having flashlights. The picture Kubler took appears to have been made at night, but I don't know if that can be proven just by looking at it. Regardless, we know they were in the cemetery at night because of the documentation. Their first trip was sometime before 9:45PM because Breckinridge made that call to Madden upon their return to Condon's home at this time, and their second was sometime after 1AM. imgur.com/0FMls3JSpeaking of this footprint... We know it was either an 8 or 8-1/2 size but didn't match Hauptmann's shoe which was a 9. Next, some say the actual print was even smaller due to how the cast was made. This creates a dilemma for those who believe Hauptmann was CJ. Joe believes this. And yet, Condon specifically pointed out this print as having been made by Cemetery John. So how to reconcile this? There's no need, of course, since we know this whole scenario was bogus in the first place. So to those who believe Hauptmann was CJ - fear not! Condon tried to protect him throughout. Of course it may not have been him all along but this whole episode was about proving who CJ was not. Kind of like the bogus "lump" on CJ's thumb. Talk about overkill. And yet, here we are with people still defending this guy as if he was a Saint. Thanks Michael! I just wasn't aware that Hacker made the cast at night, but there it is in your Vol. 2, page 281. At "1:00 AM" and with "flashlights"! Nice work. And so much for the cemetery security, huh? Question about the shoe size. On page 283 of Vol. 2, it looks like it's written that the shoe is 11" (length) and 5" (width). If that's the case, it definitely did not match BRH's shoe size. View AttachmentWayne, given all the reported issues regarding the veracity of the cast ie. angle at which the shoe came down into the ground, consistency of the mud that apparently reflowed after the fact with time elapsed, I'd be surprised if police absolutely ruled out the wearer as Hauptmann, OR they would have tried to nail him based on the cast. Even though the discrepancy in theorized size and actual size of Hauptmann's shoes, I believe was only a half-size, clearly they felt there was insufficient evidence.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 4, 2021 10:57:41 GMT -5
Michael, regarding the individuals who were “romping” around a crime scene as you put it, very likely on April 3. We know one of them was Coleman and another, possibly Reich. According to Uebel, there was a group of four or five men in total on the scene. I certainly understand it would be counter-productive for individuals not officially involved in the investigation to have been there potentially compromising physical evidence, and I have to think Coleman would have had some clue about the potential consequences of such an action. Rather than conclude or deny the presence of at least one individual there who bore some kind of official case capacity, who do you think these unidentified men might have been? Given that you appear to simply preclude any possibility of at least one of them being involved within the case to some capacity, something I find a bit hard to fathom, are you perhaps suggesting they were invited there by Coleman, or are just too inconsequential to consider?
I did not say these men “wanted to be noticed” or that it was a “given” the unidentified men were case-related. I said they apparently had no qualms about being seen at the scene right after the ransom payment for a major crime. This based on the fact they were there for three or four hours in broad daylight, while obviously not attempting to disguise themselves. Further, I am only speculating at this point that the unidentified men could have been government officials, there as a result of the April 2 Morrow townhouse meeting.
It’s my understanding that the minutes of US Grand Jury hearings are kept in secret to protect the innocent. So if your above conclusions about what a specific witness’s testimony was, based on the content released in order to augment the investigation progress or trial proceedings, I’m curious how you can form any conclusions here, based on that content which was not released. Perhaps I’m mistaken here, but I’m not aware of the May 1932 GJH full release. Regarding the issue of trust as it relates to Lindbergh and Breckinridge over Condon’s services, Lindbergh and Breckinridge would have had every right to show caution and even test the waters to ensure their own sense of security with him. Here though, you seem to continually overlook Lindbergh’s statement that he felt it was his responsibility to be there during the ransom payment, if anything went bad. Why is that? After all, he did feel it important enough to be carrying a gun that night.
They wanted to “KILL” Condon? Lindbergh had no problems with the extortionist(s) sticking to their original demand of 50K and even Irey realized Condon was only trying to help out his hero. Irey also knew the $50 gold notes would probably not see the light of day for a relatively long period. By the way, I know what a conspiracy is. I’m just amazed at how convoluted two conspiracy theories, one involving Lindbergh and the other Condon, each with its own totally disparate and surreal criminal agenda and each being played out under one of the most closely-investigated crimes in history, can become.
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Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,640
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Post by Joe on May 4, 2021 12:10:24 GMT -5
Where did you find Ralph Hacker making the plaster cast at night? How would they have done that? Condon said the night of the ransom exchange was pitch black. Did they use flashlights? Is there an account of this? Gunset Report puts the men in the cemetery making the cast after 1AM. Madden mentions the men having flashlights. The picture Kubler took appears to have been made at night, but I don't know if that can be proven just by looking at it. Regardless, we know they were in the cemetery at night because of the documentation. Their first trip was sometime before 9:45PM because Breckinridge made that call to Madden upon their return to Condon's home at this time, and their second was sometime after 1AM. imgur.com/0FMls3JSpeaking of this footprint... We know it was either an 8 or 8-1/2 size but didn't match Hauptmann's shoe which was a 9. Next, some say the actual print was even smaller due to how the cast was made. This creates a dilemma for those who believe Hauptmann was CJ. Joe believes this. And yet, Condon specifically pointed out this print as having been made by Cemetery John. So how to reconcile this? There's no need, of course, since we know this whole scenario was bogus in the first place. So to those who believe Hauptmann was CJ - fear not! Condon tried to protect him throughout. Of course it may not have been him all along but this whole episode was about proving who CJ was not. Kind of like the bogus "lump" on CJ's thumb. Talk about overkill. And yet, here we are with people still defending this guy as if he was a Saint. You may be speaking for someone else here by saying "we", but I certainly don't recognize that almost indiscernible impact as having been made by a man's shoe size of 8 to 8-1/2. And I believe anyone who told you it definitely wasn't or definitely was made by one of Hauptmann's shoes, would be speaking untruthfully. Again, you may be speaking for someone else, but I see no reason to believe Condon was lying about the possibility of that that print having been made by CJ. Regarding CJ's actual identity, I would love to see your list of candidates, or should I be using "your" (speaking for everyone) in the plural tense here? About what you consider the "bogus lump", this is either one of your best shrugs of all time, you may be lost by the details, or you're only thinking about what a convicted prison felon would say have said here.
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Post by Michael on May 5, 2021 9:27:50 GMT -5
Michael, regarding the individuals who were “romping” around a crime scene as you put it, very likely on April 3. We know one of them was Coleman and another, possibly Reich. According to Uebel, there was a group of four or five men in total on the scene. I certainly understand it would be counter-productive for individuals not officially involved in the investigation to have been there potentially compromising physical evidence, and I have to think Coleman would have had some clue about the potential consequences of such an action. Rather than conclude or deny the presence of at least one individual there who bore some kind of official case capacity, who do you think these unidentified men might have been? Given that you appear to simply preclude any possibility of at least one of them being involved within the case to some capacity, something I find a bit hard to fathom, are you perhaps suggesting they were invited there by Coleman, or are just too inconsequential to consider? See what you are doing here? If it doesn't make sense you explain it away by now suggesting Coleman knows better. Newspaper men know stories. Especially back then. As you can see from my books, some would even invent material so they had something to publish. So show me something, anything, and I will consider it. Otherwise, no authorities seemed to have known anything about it in the sources that I know exist. I can't ignore them because you'd like to believe otherwise. We don't "know" who they were. We "believe" two of them were Reich and Coleman. Who were the other men? I have no idea. Were they cops connected to this case? If they were (unlike the trip to take the cast) no one told the other authorities investigating it. This includes Coleman. I say this because it was being investigated and it did not come out. There's no record from the other Agencies mentioning it that I could find - like there is about other investigations. So again, unless you have something I don't, then there's nothing else to consider. I did not say these men “wanted to be noticed” or that it was a “given” the unidentified men were case-related. I said they apparently had no qualms about being seen at the scene right after the ransom payment for a major crime. This based on the fact they were there for three or four hours in broad daylight, while obviously not attempting to disguise themselves. Further, I am only speculating at this point that the unidentified men could have been government officials, there as a result of the April 2 Morrow townhouse meeting. At the time no one knew of the significance. So being "seen" wasn't an issue when it occurred. Again, try applying your own position here.... If these were "government officials" who weren't afraid to be seen, why didn't they share this little excursion with their counterparts from NYPD, FBI, or NJSP? It’s my understanding that the minutes of US Grand Jury hearings are kept in secret to protect the innocent. So if your above conclusions about what a specific witness’s testimony was, based on the content released in order to augment the investigation progress or trial proceedings, I’m curious how you can form any conclusions here, based on that content which was not released. Perhaps I’m mistaken here, but I’m not aware of the May 1932 GJH full release. Say what? Grand Jury testimony is source documentation. What exists was NOT "chosen" to be released. Yes, it is supposed to be kept secret and we are lucky to have any of it at all. What I have is the complete testimony of Breckinridge at both NY and Flemington. Basically, whatever exists at the NJSP archives I have. My guess is the entire transcript of everything was in someone's possession at one time. If there is something missing are you suggesting we should disregard everything else? By that argument we should stop discussing the entire crime itself because there are reports missing too - and there always will be. Regarding the issue of trust as it relates to Lindbergh and Breckinridge over Condon’s services, Lindbergh and Breckinridge would have had every right to show caution and even test the waters to ensure their own sense of security with him. Here though, you seem to continually overlook Lindbergh’s statement that he felt it was his responsibility to be there during the ransom payment, if anything went bad. Why is that? After all, he did feel it important enough to be carrying a gun that night. Yes, regarding it they did not trust him. The " yes but...." matters not. They did not trust him. They wanted to “KILL” Condon? Lindbergh had no problems with the extortionist(s) sticking to their original demand of 50K and even Irey realized Condon was only trying to help out his hero. Irey also knew the $50 gold notes would probably not see the light of day for a relatively long period. You are something else Joe. By the way, I know what a conspiracy is. I’m just amazed at how convoluted two conspiracy theories, one involving Lindbergh and the other Condon, each with its own totally disparate and surreal criminal agenda and each being played out under one of the most closely-investigated crimes in history, can become. Glad to have helped in some small way to get you to understand it better. Convoluted? You keep telling me you've read my books. I've given examples of everything everyone says could NOT have occurred in other cases where it was proven to have happened. It's easier to just ignore it I know, but in private please consider it - that's all I ask.
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Post by Michael on May 5, 2021 9:42:45 GMT -5
Gunset Report puts the men in the cemetery making the cast after 1AM. Madden mentions the men having flashlights. The picture Kubler took appears to have been made at night, but I don't know if that can be proven just by looking at it. Regardless, we know they were in the cemetery at night because of the documentation. Their first trip was sometime before 9:45PM because Breckinridge made that call to Madden upon their return to Condon's home at this time, and their second was sometime after 1AM. imgur.com/0FMls3JSpeaking of this footprint... We know it was either an 8 or 8-1/2 size but didn't match Hauptmann's shoe which was a 9. Next, some say the actual print was even smaller due to how the cast was made. This creates a dilemma for those who believe Hauptmann was CJ. Joe believes this. And yet, Condon specifically pointed out this print as having been made by Cemetery John. So how to reconcile this? There's no need, of course, since we know this whole scenario was bogus in the first place. So to those who believe Hauptmann was CJ - fear not! Condon tried to protect him throughout. Of course it may not have been him all along but this whole episode was about proving who CJ was not. Kind of like the bogus "lump" on CJ's thumb. Talk about overkill. And yet, here we are with people still defending this guy as if he was a Saint. You may be speaking for someone else here by saying "we", but I certainly don't recognize that almost indiscernible impact as having been made by a man's shoe size of 8 to 8-1/2. And I believe anyone who told you it definitely wasn't or definitely was made by one of Hauptmann's shoes, would be speaking untruthfully. Again, you may be speaking for someone else, but I see no reason to believe Condon was lying about the possibility of that that print having been made by CJ. Regarding CJ's actual identity, I would love to see your list of candidates, or should I be using "your" (speaking for everyone) in the plural tense here? About what you consider the "bogus lump", this is either one of your best shrugs of all time, you may be lost by the details, or you're only thinking about what a convicted prison felon would say have said here. I don't include you Joe because I know how fond you are of Condon. As it concerns him, for whatever reason, there could be a smoking gun and you'd say it went off by accident. Agent Madden was present during the casting of this footprint. That means he was actually there right? So he saw what happened. What did he say? Well its right on pages 279-81. He believed the measurements were of value and was curious to see if they were checked against Hauptmann's shoes. But that's not good enough for you? Alright, well the NJSP thought as Madden did, and took each and every pair of Hauptmann's shoes they could find. Why? According to you they had nothing to check them against. By the way, I've seen them all. They are in a sealed crate and I was lucky enough to be there the day they opened it up. I believe it was re-sealed and put back.
The lump was another of Condon's inventions. Sorry to say. Check out the timing of this recollection and how it moved from one hand to the other and was even on "both" hands on one occasions. You can spin a lie or two Joe but trying to move a mountain ain't going to work.
My list of candidates? Unlike you, I can accept that Condon was trying to protect Hauptmann. So that footprint shouldn't be considered at all since I absolutely believe the money was passed on East Tremont and this tall tale about it being passed there never occurred. That means it "could" have been Hauptmann despite the proof Condon provided that it was not. I don't know who the Look-Out was either truth be told. Some have suggested HE was Cemetery John. However, it seems unlikely to me because of his actions plus he's the guy that's most noticeable. I have a couple of ideas of course...
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