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Post by Michael on Jun 2, 2007 8:52:16 GMT -5
Joe,
I don't know what that is. It could be a backwards "N." It could be a backwards "N" constructed differently then in the ransom letter/envelop. It could be some other letter OR it may not be a letter. We need, at the very least, a better copy.
I was trying to use the process of elimination in order to determine the possibilities. For example, Hauptmann was in the 103rd, 2nd Company, Infantry "replacement" Regiment. Have you searched the trial testimony? If so and nothing exists then I don't know what else to do.
The big question is this: Was the backwards "N" a disguise or a slip-up on the Ransom Note writers part?
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Post by rick3 on Jun 3, 2007 11:52:01 GMT -5
Hi Michael....I am also interested in the Backwards "J" found on the two postcards addressed to Col Linberg....one from Newark and one from West Hartford CT. The backwards J is in NJ?
Were the two postcards by the same hand in block letters?
Was Red Johnson connected to them as they were on his route to his bros in West Hartford and found at the Post Office.
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Post by Michael on Jun 3, 2007 21:26:15 GMT -5
I can't seem to find my photo's of these postcards. My memory tells me they never believed they were connected and I think it was discovered one had been written by a boy but I cannot recall the source. Here is a letter written in to the NJSP about it:
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Post by Michael on Jun 4, 2007 7:18:30 GMT -5
Here is a handwriting analysis of one of those postcards done by Bert Farrar (EoQD - Treasury Department). He was used right from the beginning by those Authorities investigating the case. The reason he isn't mentioned much in the books is because he wasn't used during the trial. And there was something else... He had a falling out with Schwarzkopf in May of '32. Later, when the decision was made to utilize Experts, Farrar was "jilted." He made a last ditch effort to be attached to the trial by asking Schwarzkopf to have a subpoena issued him for reasons of justifying any future letter to prosecuting attorneys. They decided this was a good idea and it was done. Farrar did travel to Trenton and remained there during the trial. Then of course disputes arose out of travel expenses, etc. (the usual). In Fisher's book he claims Farrar was a "rebuttal" witness to be used if necessary. While that's possible, it seems to me they wanted to "tie him up" by basically insuring there was no chance to be called by the Defense. An angry Government Expert who examined everything from beginning to end wouldn't be a good situation for them at alll so they thought better of it. By the way, Farrar did believe Hauptmann wrote the notes. Of course like those that did he utilized the requests. Here is the most recent conclusion of his that I could find: In conclusion, I may say that there are numerous differences in form between the disputed and standard writing, and there are great differences in form and design in the standard writing itself as well as in the disputed writing. However, I believe, after a careful comparison of the two that these difference are incidental to the conditions under which the writing was done and in no way alter my opinion. The above documents come by way of Dr. Gardner who provided them to me. They originated from the National Archives at their College Park venue. It's one of the reasons why Dr. Gardner's book is so good - because he took the time to meticulously utilize then cross reference just about everything against material most Authors never saw before. 165.230.98.36/acatalog/__The_Case_That_Never_Dies_1350.html#1977
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Post by gary on Jun 4, 2007 16:02:47 GMT -5
Michael. I am glad that you have held off making a judgement of the handwriting. I can't honestly say that it isn't. In fact the "Dear Sir" thing really has me leaning the other way that it is his handwriting.
I noticed that some of the notes seemed to have been written in smaller script and written with a tighter and heavier grip as if bearing down harder. Not enough to say a different style but still a variance to me.
What bothers me is how neat the Boad Nelly note is compared to the other notes. It seems this should have been the roughest note written. If I would finally believe Hauptmann wrote all the notes it would not change my mind Fisch was at least one of the CJ's in particular at Woodlawn.
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Post by Michael on Jun 9, 2007 9:41:47 GMT -5
I am still 50/50.
And that means I am 50/50 on the Author & Penman. It could be someone wrote the notes but didn't come up with the wording (or spelling) and simply wrote what they were told or read.
Then there's the issue of the first note. It seems all Experts agree they were written by the same hand. However, this wasn't always the case and the Prosecution was gearing up for this angle based upon Osborn Sr.'s Grand Jury testimony.
I was sent a new post by Script and quickly glanced at it. It's nice to see he has "adjusted" his argument according to my comments concerning his last assertions comparing his cursive "N" to the block printed ones. I can't figure this guy out. A supposed Expert feeling his way around this evidence like he's Helen Keller. Drawing conclusions on xerox copies of old newspaper pictures or photos in books (ouch!).
It's reckless to say the least, and one can clearly see the bias made when he acts this way. If he's an "Expert" and acts this way then God help us if anyone is up against an "Expert" in Court. Human emotion, and things like other circumstances (such as finding ransom money) should have nothing to do with conclusions about ransom notes.
I think it needs to be asked, once again, whether or not the backwards capital printed "N" was done by accident, or a tendency of the Writer, or as a method of disguise. There are (3) verifiable backwards "N" that I know of coming from Hauptmann's known writing (standards). We cannot include to the "requests" for reasons which have been outlined and explained in the past.
If one says it was a "slip-up" or "tendency" then we have to look at the odds of the situation to see if they jibe. Next, we would have to examine the exact construction of that letter to see if that jibes too. If the both the odds and the construction differ then I cannot see how this would apply.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 13:44:55 GMT -5
Here is a handwriting analysis of one of those postcards done by Bert Farrar (EoQD - Treasury Department). He was used right from the beginning by those Authorities investigating the case. The above documents come by way of Dr. Gardner who provided them to me. Michael, The links in this earlier post do not work. Since Lee posted postcards on a thread recently, I have been wondering if there was any handwriting analysis done on them. I did not know if that is possible with printing and not script. If those links were about the postcards could you possibly repost them? Thanks.
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Post by Michael on Apr 7, 2020 9:53:17 GMT -5
The links in this earlier post do not work. Since Lee posted postcards on a thread recently, I have been wondering if there was any handwriting analysis done on them. I did not know if that is possible with printing and not script. If those links were about the postcards could you possibly repost them? Thanks. imgur.com/NjaHPb0Since its been 13 years, I "think" these are the ones Amy. This is why its a good idea for anyone interested to create a download folder for the documents and pictures posted here because sooner or later they will disappear - mostly randomly but perhaps the older the more likely.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 21:30:36 GMT -5
Thanks, Michael for taking the time to locate and re-post them for me. I can hardly believe it took me 13 years to come upon this thread!!! There is just an incredible amount of topics/threads on this board to read. I have made copies of what you have shared so I will not have to ever ask you about this again.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 17, 2020 5:58:11 GMT -5
Those of us who have read many student essays can testify that those with a problem called "dyslexia" often have difficulty with the formation of letters in their writing. Dyslexia is identified with confusion between "right" and "left" and sometimes "up" and "down." The writing of "supway" instead of "subway" does not indicate necessarily a problem with pronunciation. While dyslexia had not been identified as such in the 1930's, a specialist today could examine the various notes and identify whether the author might have had this difficulty. I am not sure that dyslexia would be carried over into lapses in driving or playing games such as soccer.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 7:17:15 GMT -5
Those of us who have read many student essays can testify that those with a problem called "dyslexia" often have difficulty with the formation of letters in their writing. Dyslexia is identified with confusion between "right" and "left" and sometimes "up" and "down." The writing of "supway" instead of "subway" does not indicate necessarily a problem with pronunciation. While dyslexia had not been identified as such in the 1930's, a specialist today could examine the various notes and identify whether the author might have had this difficulty. I am not sure that dyslexia would be carried over into lapses in driving or playing games such as soccer. I have not really looked at dyslexia as the cause of the way words and letters appear in the ransom notes. It is certainly an interesting idea. If these anomalies were due to a medical condition, wouldn't they appear consistently in the writings of an individual. The "N" that is spoken about in this thread was not consistently printed backward in the ransom notes. Just sometimes.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 17, 2020 8:27:14 GMT -5
Dyslexia is a neurological condition. Many affected individuals attempt to compensate for it, and if they are aware of the problem they may attempt to write the letters correctly sometimes. Hence the discrepancy.
I am not a specialist in dyslexia, but the backward formation of the N and J in some instances are indications that the writing is of a dyslexic, or could be. A dyslexic also may write "d" as "b" or write "b" as "p". There are other symptoms. I have seen comments regarding the placement of the ladder on the Lindbergh house suggesting that the kidnapper was left-handed. He may have been dyslexic and not necessarily left-handed. So I am just suggesting that this possibility be investigated and not necessarily advocating the case, but some evidence does support the idea. Thank you for responding.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 17, 2020 8:57:59 GMT -5
I just checked two photos of Hauptmann. In one he is at a beach with friends at a picnic and is shown eating a banana with his right hand. In the other he is again with a group of friends and playing a mandolin as a right-handed person would play the notes. So unless the photos are mirror-images, one could infer that that Hauptmann was right-handed. Dyslexia could not be ruled out in this basis, however.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 10:13:24 GMT -5
I just checked two photos of Hauptmann. In one he is at a beach with friends at a picnic and is shown eating a banana with his right hand. In the other he is again with a group of friends and playing a mandolin as a right-handed person would play the notes. So unless the photos are mirror-images, one could infer that that Hauptmann was right-handed. Dyslexia could not be ruled out in this basis, however. Hauptmann was indeed right handed. I think your suggestion about dyslexia having something to do with the handwriting should be noted. I have not looked into this possibility in a detailed way. I have not yet come across dyslexia in the reports on Hauptmann. However, I hope you will continue to research on this and keep us informed.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 17, 2020 11:35:57 GMT -5
I will look into any research on the subject, apply the characteristics of dyslexia to both the writing in the ransom letters and in Hauptmann's own handwriting. After making an analysis, I will get back to you and report any findings on the Board. This will take some time, however, as it does not appear that anyone has performed this exercise before. ( I have some knowledge of the German language and have had training in research methods and textual criticism, so the task is not undaunting , but exciting and hopefully productive.)
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 18, 2020 9:56:32 GMT -5
Dyslexia is a neurological condition. Many affected individuals attempt to compensate for it, and if they are aware of the problem they may attempt to write the letters correctly sometimes. Hence the discrepancy. I am not a specialist in dyslexia, but the backward formation of the N and J in some instances are indications that the writing is of a dyslexic, or could be. A dyslexic also may write "d" as "b" or write "b" as "p". There are other symptoms. I have seen comments regarding the placement of the ladder on the Lindbergh house suggesting that the kidnapper was left-handed. He may have been dyslexic and not necessarily left-handed. So I am just suggesting that this possibility be investigated and not necessarily advocating the case, but some evidence does support the idea. Thank you for responding. I personally haven't seen much that indicates Hauptmann was dyslexic. While I don't believe the backwards "J" is a factor, based on a general understanding that that postcard was a fraud, the backwards "N" from the authentic ransom note communications, would seem to have a fairly straightforward explanation. From the German Kurrentschrift and Sutterlin handwriting systems below, which Hauptmann would have been well familiar with from his German school days, the middle portion of each of these small "n's", essentially mimics the backwards-oriented form of the English language capital "N" letter, which is found in the ransom letter "New York." Perhaps this is nothing more than momentary confusion on his part, and his subconscious deliberating on the correct formation as he wrote.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 19, 2020 6:35:52 GMT -5
In studying the ransom notes to look for evidence of dyslexia, I have run into a problem that might confuse the issue. Some inconsistencies in these notes make evaluation rather difficult. While some errors could be attributed to someone not familiar with the English language and also not well educated, the diction is on occasion not characteristic of a different individual. Some simple words are misspelled while other words are on a different level and spelled correctly. (Eg. "responsible," "communicate," "equipment," "instruction," "consequences," "confidential," "circumstances". ..)
It appears that two individuals are involved here: one is dictating the contents of the ransom notes and spelling the "hard words" to the writer who is less well educated and trying to follow the dictation while making some errors with the words and constructions not given to him by the one making the dictation. This becomes more obvious in the statement "We will no longer permit ouer man to confer in a way like befor..." indicating that more than one individual is involved: that is, the person dictating is not the individual who spoke with Condon at the cemetery and does not approve of the way the conversation took place.
I will try to work on the question of dyslexia, but because two individuals are involved in the composition of the ransom notes (and I am convinced of this), the difficulties observed in the notes may have occurred in part because of the situation, problems in hearing what is said, for example, or haste to follow the dictation.
I can say with certainty, however, the dictator did not proofread his work.
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metje
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Post by metje on May 19, 2020 6:39:51 GMT -5
One correction: In the first paragraph I should have written that the "diction is not characteristic of the writer and so would involve a second person."
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metje
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Post by metje on May 19, 2020 7:06:19 GMT -5
One would have to assume that the dictator of the ransom notes would be the kidnapping gang leader (or one of the leaders) who knew English well (whatever his country of origin) and was quite intelligent or well educated. He very likely was present when the kidnap money was exchanged and dictated the "Boad Nelly" note. He also knew of Gay Head and the Elizabeth Islands (though the writer uses the singular Elizabeth Island). He also must have overheard the conversation between Cemetery John and J. Condon, since he voices his displeasure in the next ransom note.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 10:22:30 GMT -5
It appears that two individuals are involved here: one is dictating the contents of the ransom notes and spelling the "hard words" to the writer who is less well educated and trying to follow the dictation while making some errors with the words and constructions not given to him by the one making the dictation. My own current position is that more then one person is involved with the creation of the ransom notes. I am not inclined to the letters being dictated, per say, but I do believe the content could have been influenced by someone else with one person doing all the writing.
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geld
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Post by geld on May 19, 2020 17:56:45 GMT -5
" It is in MR. LINDBERGH interest not to notify the Police." This is from the notes PORRONE, taxi driver, was given. This phrasing doesn't sound like BRH, and has always stuck with me. There are others also.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 22:14:11 GMT -5
" It is in MR. LINDBERGH interest not to notify the Police." This is from the notes PORRONE, taxi driver, was given. This phrasing doesn't sound like BRH, and has always stuck with me. There are others also. This is interesting. Can you explain why you don't think it fits BRH? What are some of the others that don't seem to fit BRH?
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geld
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Post by geld on May 21, 2020 17:09:11 GMT -5
I can't explain why. You have to study all the letters and also BRH to get the "feel" of the man and the letters.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 14:54:37 GMT -5
I can't explain why. You have to study all the letters and also BRH to get the "feel" of the man and the letters. I totally get this. I have experienced the same thing with parts of this case. Thanks for sharing this!
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Post by fletchsleuth on Apr 24, 2023 9:15:39 GMT -5
The card with the words "ACT ACCORDINGLY" and "NJ" have capital N printed correctly. The J is backward on this card.
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Post by Sherlock on Aug 7, 2023 15:21:56 GMT -5
As Michael has exp[ained, a liar will give different versions of a given event because he/she cannot keep track of the lies told in previous accounts. A practised liar will incorporate truthful elements in the story and these are generally consistent from one version to the next.
IF the ransom notes are faked the writer wishes to give the impression that the author is a German immigrant, probably a recent arrival given his limited command of English. The spelling is erratic often with longer words spelled correctly and with errors in shorter words. It is also inconsistent from one note to the next with a given word e.g “money” sometimes mis-spelled as “mony.” Thanks to Joe for pointing this out.
For me, this inconsistent spelling by the note writer is similar to the various versions of a story offered by a liar. Unless the writer kept copies of his earlier notes for reference he had only his memory to remind him of which words he was mis-spelling. While the general pose of the author as a German immigrant is maintained consistently, the mis-spelling varies from note to note.
Spelling for someone learning a foreign language is a skill acquired over time. I speak from personal experience. But once the correct spelling has been learned there’s no going back - its a one way street. It is very difficult to believe that over a period of a few weeks a genuine writer of the ransom notes would be so inconsistent in his spelling from note to note. It is for me indicative of deception.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2023 16:38:07 GMT -5
As Michael has exp[ained, a liar will give different versions of a given event because he/she cannot keep track of the lies told in previous accounts. A practised liar will incorporate truthful elements in the story and these are generally consistent from one version to the next. IF the ransom notes are faked the writer wishes to give the impression that the author is a German immigrant, probably a recent arrival given his limited command of English. The spelling is erratic often with longer words spelled correctly and with errors in shorter words. It is also inconsistent from one note to the next with a given word e.g “money” sometimes mis-spelled as “mony.” Thanks to Joe for pointing this out. For me, this inconsistent spelling by the note writer is similar to the various versions of a story offered by a liar. Unless the writer kept copies of his earlier notes for reference he had only his memory to remind him of which words he was mis-spelling. While the general pose of the author as a German immigrant is maintained consistently, the mis-spelling varies from note to note. Spelling for someone learning a foreign language is a skill acquired over time. I speak from personal experience. But once the correct spelling has been learned there’s no going back - its a one way street. It is very difficult to believe that over a period of a few weeks a genuine writer of the ransom notes would be so inconsistent in his spelling from note to note. It is for me indicative of deception. When Hauptmann was asked to spell the word "money" during the request writings and he spelled it "money" and "mony," was this also a form of deception in order to connect himself with the writer of the ransom notes, which also demonstrated the same dual spellings?
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Post by Sherlock on Aug 8, 2023 2:54:55 GMT -5
Both Hauptmann and his friend Kloppenberg were told to copy the spelling of certain words from the ransom notes so that handwriting style, not spelling in this test, could be examined. Hauptmann in particular was subjected to marathon writing sessions until he was almost dropping with fatigue. A reflection of the less than perfect conditions prevailing, For me you either spell a word correctly and consistently, or you spell it incorrectly and consistently. To get it right on some occasions and not on others just doesn't ring true. Especially the simple word "money." In summary I place little credence on the handwriting tests due to the febrile and biassed atmosphere in which they were conducted. "Innocent until proven guilty" was replaced by "Guilty until proven innocent."
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Post by bernardt on Aug 8, 2023 9:37:51 GMT -5
Both Hauptmann and his friend Kloppenberg were told to copy the spelling of certain words from the ransom notes so that handwriting style, not spelling in this test, could be examined. Hauptmann in particular was subjected to marathon writing sessions until he was almost dropping with fatigue. A reflection of the less than perfect conditions prevailing, For me you either spell a word correctly and consistently, or you spell it incorrectly and consistently. To get it right on some occasions and not on others just doesn't ring true. Especially the simple word "money." In summary I place little credence on the handwriting tests due to the febrile and biassed atmosphere in which they were conducted. "Innocent until proven guilty" was replaced by "Guilty until proven innocent." For someone with dyslexia, the problem is not merely a confusion between left and right. The brain does not make connections between the sound of the syllables of a word and the letter symbols which represent the sounds., The errors are not consistent. Sometimes the dyslexic writer does select the correct spelling and often not, but forming each word becomes a new experience, Hence, the inconsistency. The letters themselves may be misformed; eg. the "b" in the word "subway" is shaped like a "p". I am not arguing that Hauptmann was dyslexic, but that the writer of the ransom notes did not intentionally misspell the words in order to mislead. At that time not much was understood about dyslexia, but children with that problem would not go very far in school. Now there are special needs classes designed to give assistance with the dyslexia problem. If I recall correctly the characteristics of the writing by someone with dyslexia were dealt with very specifically on another thread.
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Post by bernardt on Aug 8, 2023 9:57:30 GMT -5
I should add that students with dyslexia are often quite intelligent and do well in classes that do not require writing. Many do well in vocational schools and become mechanics, painters, roofers, plumbers, etc.
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