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Post by xjd on Aug 23, 2012 22:38:15 GMT -5
also, anyone else think the misspelling smacks of someone imitating someone who is German and doesn't speak English that well? it is so over the top in some ways.
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kevkon
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Aug 24, 2012 13:28:06 GMT -5
Post by kevkon on Aug 24, 2012 13:28:06 GMT -5
I don't know, I do think someone pretending to be German would go further. The notes are enigmatic in some ways, though. And I agree, handwriting examiners seem to be all over the place.
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Post by bookrefuge on Aug 24, 2012 15:26:30 GMT -5
XJD, I agree with you. And Kevkon, just so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying this for the sake of disagreeing with you.
Out of laziness, I'm going to paste in what I wrote in another thread.
The first note substituted the German “gut” for “good.” I have only studied a couple of foreign languages, French and Chinese, but I can tell you that one of the first things you learn in studying any foreign language is basic phrases like “hello” and “good-bye,” “good” and “bad.” Was it likely that Richard Hauptmann, after nine years in America, still hadn’t learned how to spell the word “good”? Another “first word” language students commonly learn is “house.” A later ransom note substituted the German word “haus” for “house.” Hauptmann had helped build houses; he and his wife had taken out two mortgages. Was it really possibly he still didn’t know how to spell “house”? If Hauptmann was a mastermind who single-handedly pulled off “the crime of the century,” then why would he be so foolish as to leave obvious clues about his ethnic identity?
This was affirmed by what I read in Scaduto’s book (pp. 377-8). Long after the kidnapping, Theo Bernsen, an LKC investigator, brought sentences drawn from the ransom notes to the German embassy in London, to the man in charge of German-English translations, a respected authority on German writing. The selected sentences did not relate directly to kidnapping or ransom, so that the translator would not guess they were from the LKC. Bernsen asked if the sentences were written by a German-speaking person. Giving several illustrations (wrong syntax and other indicators), the translator showed Bernsen that the sentences were clearly not written by a German, but by an English-speaking person trying to sound like a German.
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kevkon
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Aug 24, 2012 16:21:07 GMT -5
Post by kevkon on Aug 24, 2012 16:21:07 GMT -5
The problem is that there is no universal rule regarding a second tongue and how each individual uses it. My Father came over from Germany and many of my relatives as well. They all spoke, composed, and spelled differently. Some would speak very good American yet spell with a combination of German and English or vice versa. Sometimes the emotional state also yielded different constructions.
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Aug 24, 2012 19:56:25 GMT -5
Post by wolf2 on Aug 24, 2012 19:56:25 GMT -5
kevcon, it still dosnt save hauptmann. they knew a german wrote the notes
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Joe
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Aug 24, 2012 20:21:22 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 24, 2012 20:21:22 GMT -5
The striking Teutonic hand in the ransom notes writing was well accepted two years before Hauptmann's arrest. The spellings are indicative of a German who learned English as a second language in America and had extreme confusion over the use of both, attached the letter "e" to words that didn't require it, eliminated it from words that did, among many other idisosyncracies such as uncrossed "t's" and undotted "i's", backwards "N's" and obviously used a dictionary for words he didn't even want to attempt. All point to Hauptmann.
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Aug 24, 2012 22:23:36 GMT -5
Post by wolf2 on Aug 24, 2012 22:23:36 GMT -5
also joe, the huddleson report was damaging. thanks to frank pitcheelio fellow researcher who got it from the huddleson family
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Aug 25, 2012 11:47:04 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 25, 2012 11:47:04 GMT -5
Steve, the Huddleson Report is very revealing and anyone studying this case would be well advised to put it on their required reading list. No surprise here really that through the efforts of Hauptmann’s defense team, it remained buried for fifty-seven years.
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Aug 26, 2012 13:19:14 GMT -5
Post by bookrefuge on Aug 26, 2012 13:19:14 GMT -5
Joe, I have now read the Huddleson report. What did you think was so damning about it? Hauptmann says when he was young (in Germany) he sometimes accidentally added an “e” to words. But he also says that he generally mastered that defect. There weren’t that many words in the ransom notes with an extra “e”—mosty “note” for “not,” and “ouer.”
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Post by xjd on Aug 26, 2012 14:05:18 GMT -5
not to sound too conspiracy minded, but...i get the feeling the misspellings are what a xenophobic, ultra-patriotic American would condescendingly think that a German-born person would write like. it's ALMOST like dialogue from the Katzenjammer kids, which i know was written by a German-born person but was printed during that era. someone who has been known to wax poetic under the name of P.A. Triot, J. U. Stice, is who i have in mine. Condon is also responsible for hearing the Italian "shut up", being accosted by exotic foreign women, etc. stories. he certainly was either fixated on, a magnet for , or a target of immigrants.
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Joe
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Aug 26, 2012 17:22:05 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 26, 2012 17:22:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't necessarily say the report is damning but it does indicate that Hauptmann had grown up with a very peculiar form of lexical agraphia, and although he seemed to have relatively good control over this, it is nevertheless demonstrated within the ransom notes as it is in his conceded handwriting, specifically in the spelling "note" for "not" and "befor" for "before." Does that alone prove he wrote the notes? No, but I can understand the James Fawcett's reluctance to share the findings, particularly in light of the fact Hauptmann was ultimately judged sane to stand trial, following his psychiatrist interviews.
What I do find particularly interesting within the Huddleson Report is the reference again to his war injuries which he repeats in his mini-autobiography letter to lawyer Fawcett. BTW, I will add a post to the Fawcett thread where others can take a look at that letter for their own comparison with the ransom note writing.
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Aug 27, 2012 6:56:40 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2012 6:56:40 GMT -5
This is very interesting.....
I've considered the note had been dictated or re-written by someone other then the person who created it. But there are obvious problems that I find myself in with either of these possibilities.
If it were dictated then the spelling was too. Also, if the Person being dictated to were German, then he would tell the person it isn't how they talk or formulate their words.
I've considered it being "re-written" because whoever wrote it wasn't German and wanted a German to write it just for that purpose.
But in the end .... why? That's the one which makes either of these scenarios improbable.
But someone wrote earlier, BR I think, about the small words being misspelled and large words being spelled right. It's a point the Authorities attempted to get around by saying Hauptmann used a dictionary. Here too I have problems. How does someone who doesn't use the word write for example: "hazardous?" It's not something you simply look up then use it straight out of a dictionary. Maybe it was found accidentally but that's highly doubtful. I think its the fingerprint of someone else involved.
So I do believe, if Hauptmann wrote these notes, there's two people in the room when its being written.
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Aug 27, 2012 9:04:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2012 9:04:53 GMT -5
I have been looking at the ransom note photos on Ronelle's site. I am still not sure the nursery note was written by the same hand as the other notes.
Also, when looking at the Boad Nelly note, if you look at line 4 the word Boad looks like it was spelled correctly with a " t" on the end but it was changed to a "d" by the writer. Even the "B" looks like it started out to be a different letter but was changed.
Perhaps it is just the angle of the photo that makes these letters look altered.
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Joe
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Aug 27, 2012 9:46:55 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 27, 2012 9:46:55 GMT -5
Amy, good observations! This writer evidently had much confusion over the use of "d" and "t", ie. the use of English versus German spelling. It's my own position that the nursery note was written with the opposite hand or with the pen held higher up on the barrel to effect less control, therefore making the writing appear less flowing and unlike that of the writer. This disguise attempt seems to be maintained up to the end of the fourth line of Ransom Note 1. After that it appears the writer grew tired of trying to disguise his writing in what might have been too laborious a manner.
By the way, it was concluded by Albert Osborn that the nursery note and Ransom Note 1 originated from the same sheet of Fifth Avenue linen stationery and that the original sheet was torn in half along a fold. Apparently, the tear marks lined up quite nicely, so there is some provenance within the series which of course also includes the unique symbol.
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kevkon
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Aug 27, 2012 9:53:13 GMT -5
Post by kevkon on Aug 27, 2012 9:53:13 GMT -5
Amy, the difference is more pronounced when you actually have the originals in your hand. Joe, do you believe the Nursery note was written in Hauptmann's apartment and that it was not the first attempt?
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mairi
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Aug 27, 2012 10:15:50 GMT -5
Post by mairi on Aug 27, 2012 10:15:50 GMT -5
Hi Amy, There was what seemed to be a little travel ledger -(I'll never be able to find it again )I recall when I first saw it one of the letters in a word jumped out at me as seeming to have been overwritten and then a second letter as a "maybe". Your post brought it back to me. Joe, I look forward to your post on the Hahn thing. Thus far something strikes me as "peculiar" about it. I recall reading that some things were confiscated from the BRH apartment, (NY police) including letters, which were never returned to Anna.Does anyone know if this included a letter(s) from Fisch, from Germany? If so, who retained them?
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Joe
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Aug 27, 2012 10:16:44 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 27, 2012 10:16:44 GMT -5
Kevin, I believe Hauptmann wrote all of the ransom notes with the exception of the Boad Nelly note and most likely did so in his apartment or garage. Because of the smudging (neatness didn't appear to be a concern) and the fact the tears in this half of the original page lined up with the tears in the other half of the page that Ransom Note 1 was written on, I'm inclined to believe it was the first and only attempt. What are your thoughts?
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Aug 27, 2012 11:02:40 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2012 11:02:40 GMT -5
I do agree that the nursery note does look like the writer was struggling to keep control of his writing when forming letters. It very well could be that the opposite hand was used to write that first note. Wouldn't that mean it would take longer to write that note? Also the smudged words could indicate that the ink(?) was not quite dry when the note was ready to be folded and placed in the envelope.
Like Mairi, I would be interested in any letter written by Fisch. I don't recall seeing anything written by him. It seems the police confiscated so many of the Hauptmanns' things. If the items aren't used by the police for a trial, are they obligated to return any of the items to the owners or would Anna have needed to ask the court for her things?
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Aug 27, 2012 11:10:32 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 27, 2012 11:10:32 GMT -5
Or perhaps it's indicative of a non-familiarity with the writing method, ie. smudging from the trailing left hand?
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Aug 27, 2012 12:51:32 GMT -5
Post by bookrefuge on Aug 27, 2012 12:51:32 GMT -5
Something has occurred to me reading the points raised in this thread. The possibility has been raised of one person dictating the notes to a second person. I never gave this much thought before, as I always figured the notes were the work of one individual.
But let’s says it’s two people. Perhaps the person doing the dictating doesn’t write the notes because he’s known to some of the principals (or the police), and is afraid his handwriting might be recognized. So he dictates the notes to his helper, whose English isn’t that great. But when he gets to a big word like “hazardous,” the helper says “Hazardous? How do you spell that?” This might not be the explanation, but like Michael, I have some trouble visualizing the kidnappers writing the notes while consulting a dictionary.
I laughed as I was writing this, as it made me think of the old “Get Smart” episodes, where the villain would tell his helper, “Take this down.” He would then dictate a voluminous note, while the helper was continuously fumbling looking for a pencil until the dictation was finished.
Amy, regarding your belief that parts of the notes may have been altered. As I recall, there was one expert who came to Flemington and said that the notes had been altered—said that she could prove it to the jury by blowing the notes up on a large screen. But Reilly would not allow her to testify. Sorry, I can’t remember her name, but I’m sure Michael will.
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kevkon
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Aug 27, 2012 15:12:19 GMT -5
Post by kevkon on Aug 27, 2012 15:12:19 GMT -5
Joe, it's hard for me to believe there wouldn't be a couple of attempts at getting a proper disguise not to mention that in focusing on the disguise one would probably make mistakes in the text. I,m trying to picture doing that first note in the comfort of a home with a desk, but that's not clear to me.
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Aug 27, 2012 15:45:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2012 15:45:02 GMT -5
BR, I would like to know more about that expert. I shall have to look at the other notes again to see if I see any signs of alterations anywhere.
Was the writer of the notes really German? Perhaps the beerstein was placed on the windowsill with the note just to make that point more convincingly, LOL
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Aug 27, 2012 18:02:33 GMT -5
Post by xjd on Aug 27, 2012 18:02:33 GMT -5
the matter of how many people wrote/dictated the notes reminds me of the Sherlock Holmes story "The Adventure of the Reigate Squires". BR, i'm sure you know that one!
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Aug 27, 2012 18:30:23 GMT -5
Post by bookrefuge on Aug 27, 2012 18:30:23 GMT -5
No, I wasn’t familiar with that one, xjd, though I just googled a synopsis. Regrettably, as you can see, I am better versed in “Get Smart” episodes than Arthur Conan Doyle stories, which is probably why my approach to this case resembles Maxwell Smart more than Sherlock Holmes.
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Aug 27, 2012 20:23:15 GMT -5
Post by bookrefuge on Aug 27, 2012 20:23:15 GMT -5
Amy, just to bring things up to speed, the woman I mentioned was Hilda Braunlich. She is mentioned in some detail in Kennedy, p. 312. She believed that some forged strokes had been added to the ransom notes, using a different ink blend, to make them more strongly resemble Hauptmann’s hand. She stuck to her story when interviewed over 40 years later. Of course, I don’t know if she might have been right. Interestingly, she was discussed in this very thread (about 5 years ago). Go near the lower part of Page 1 and check some of the posts by the contributor Rita.
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"Boad"
Aug 27, 2012 20:41:20 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2012 20:41:20 GMT -5
Hilda Braunlich.
She wrote Gov. Byrne in 1977 after reading Scaduto's book. She had been married so her name was different at that time: Hilda Zaenglein Schaffer. She claimed both Goodspeed, and Trendley saw what she did. The problem is that no one has since.
So I see (3) possibilities:
1. She was a really bad Handwriting Expert and didn't know what she was looking at.
2. She lied.
3. When the Defense Experts were finally allowed the brief opportunity to look over the notes they weren't given the originals.
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Aug 27, 2012 21:01:54 GMT -5
Post by wolf2 on Aug 27, 2012 21:01:54 GMT -5
i have a interview with her in new yorks newsday
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"Boad"
Aug 27, 2012 21:22:44 GMT -5
Post by bookrefuge on Aug 27, 2012 21:22:44 GMT -5
Wolf2, any way you can share that interview with us, or perhaps some excerpts? I’ve heard her mentioned, but not directly quoted.
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kevkon
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Aug 28, 2012 9:09:22 GMT -5
Post by kevkon on Aug 28, 2012 9:09:22 GMT -5
You forgot #4- She was another nut. Something this case has in ample supply.
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Joe
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Aug 28, 2012 9:32:03 GMT -5
Post by Joe on Aug 28, 2012 9:32:03 GMT -5
No question here Kevin, if she actually had the credentials to know better. And also a bit nutty to believe anyone would attempt to alter the original ransom notes as this action wouldn't even begin to alter the direct connection to Hauptmann's hand. What Hilda Braunlich was looking at was ink flowback into the area affected by the initial pressure of the passing pen nib and ink deposits. We can put this one in the Myth Busted vault but I'm sure that won't stop it from being dragged out again in the future.
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