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Post by lightningjew on Aug 28, 2020 14:53:53 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2020 17:01:50 GMT -5
This sounds like a fascinating book, LJ. I will definitely buy this one. I like the whole idea of her approach to writing this book. I had no idea that the Hall-Mills case had been such an inspiration for that great novel written by F. Scott Fitzgerald. Thanks for posting this!!
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Post by wolfman666 on Aug 28, 2020 19:43:15 GMT -5
amy the latest book he seems to think people got paid off by mrs hall
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 8:44:05 GMT -5
Interesting! I think I will put Richard Walling's book on my list of titles to acquire about the Hall Mills case, along with the book that LJ mentioned above.
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Post by DDD on Sept 1, 2020 23:32:38 GMT -5
Just a few thousand questions Does the original evidence still exist? How many people interviewed? Did the FBI interview Lindbergh at length? I cannot find it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 8:01:14 GMT -5
Major, your questions are best answered by Michael. I have not been through all the documentation at the archives to give you the best answers. There is original evidence at the NJSP archives that can be looked at. However, the physical evidence pertaining to Charlie was removed by the Lindbergh family in 2003. That is a real loss to those who are interested in this case.
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Post by Michael on Sept 2, 2020 9:10:47 GMT -5
Major, your questions are best answered by Michael. I have not been through all the documentation at the archives to give you the best answers. There is original evidence at the NJSP archives that can be looked at. However, the physical evidence pertaining to Charlie was removed by the Lindbergh family in 2003. That is a real loss to those who are interested in this case. I encourage everyone to jump in here. There is a lot that could be written in response but I'm going to try to stay brief. Just a few thousand questions Does the original evidence still exist? How many people interviewed? Did the FBI interview Lindbergh at length? I cannot find it. 1. Yes and no. A lot of it is still at the NJSP Archives.
www.njspmemorialassociation.org/museum/Lindbergh.php
www.njsp.org/about/museum.shtml
Some of the evidence has "disappeared." For example, the 3/4" chisel discovered at the crime scene.
Some of the evidence has been "ruined." As examples, the casted footprints, and Hauptmann's plane (the blade rusted away).
2. A ton! Honestly, its impossible to put a number on it.
3. Special Agent Larimer in 1933 is about the closest thing to it as far as the "FBI" goes.
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Post by wolfman666 on Sept 2, 2020 9:45:30 GMT -5
im glad i got to see it before it was taken. the blue thread on bettys nightshirt she made him, the spool was there. but these moronic lindbergh baby claimants had to bother them so they removed the stuff from the archive
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Post by Michael on Sept 2, 2020 10:13:20 GMT -5
im glad i got to see it before it was taken. the blue thread on bettys nightshirt she made him, the spool was there. but these moronic lindbergh baby claimants had to bother them so they removed the stuff from the archive Me too. The blue thread was an odd choice don't you think? Impressive color and easy to identify. I feel bad for researchers who go now or will go because they'll never be able to see certain things. I'd mention some that are still there but I don't want to give anyone ideas about having those removed too.
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Post by wolfman666 on Sept 2, 2020 11:51:30 GMT -5
they took other stuff i have pictures of alot of it dont know about the blue spool of thread. i dont think i took a picture of it
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Sept 2, 2020 12:43:56 GMT -5
im glad i got to see it before it was taken. the blue thread on bettys nightshirt she made him, the spool was there. but these moronic lindbergh baby claimants had to bother them so they removed the stuff from the archive Me too. The blue thread was an odd choice don't you think? Impressive color and easy to identify. I feel bad for researchers who go now or will go because they'll never be able to see certain things. I'd mention some that are still there but I don't want to give anyone ideas about having those removed too. I think that would have been largely dependent on how specific Betty Gow was in her request for thread and what Elsie had available. What really would have been the likelihood of the bones and other items being tested for DNA when the State of New Jersey has never allowed testing of the ransom note envelopes and the sealed envelope from Hauptmann's letter? Not likely at all I'd say. Personally, I've never viewed the family-inspired removal of Charlie's items from the museum as a problem for anyone. After all, they include human remains of a loved one, and I believe family would have considered their public display as objectionable and in poor taste, as I did when I saw them at the NJSP museum.
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Post by Michael on Sept 2, 2020 13:36:02 GMT -5
I think that would have been largely dependent on how specific Betty Gow was in her request for thread and what Elsie had available. What really would have been the likelihood of the bones and other items being tested for DNA when the State of New Jersey has never allowed testing of the ransom note envelopes and the sealed envelope from Hauptmann's letter? Not likely at all I'd say. Personally, I've never viewed the family-inspired removal of Charlie's items from the museum as a problem for anyone. After all, they include human remains of a loved one, and I believe family would have considered their public display as objectionable and in poor taste, as I did when I saw them at the NJSP museum. What she had available? So all she had was this striking color? I guess they were lucky she happened to have a needle too. When you say DNA for what purpose do you think it would be needed? First, if it was in poor taste, why did they remain there for so long? I don't recall any previous objection. Next, why did they take the clothing? The blue thread is something that was more striking then the pictures of it. For me, I'd rather researchers see it for themselves.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Sept 6, 2020 8:16:20 GMT -5
I think that would have been largely dependent on how specific Betty Gow was in her request for thread and what Elsie had available. What really would have been the likelihood of the bones and other items being tested for DNA when the State of New Jersey has never allowed testing of the ransom note envelopes and the sealed envelope from Hauptmann's letter? Not likely at all I'd say. Personally, I've never viewed the family-inspired removal of Charlie's items from the museum as a problem for anyone. After all, they include human remains of a loved one, and I believe family would have considered their public display as objectionable and in poor taste, as I did when I saw them at the NJSP museum. What she had available? So all she had was this striking color? I guess they were lucky she happened to have a needle too. When you say DNA for what purpose do you think it would be needed? First, if it was in poor taste, why did they remain there for so long? I don't recall any previous objection. Next, why did they take the clothing? The blue thread is something that was more striking then the pictures of it. For me, I'd rather researchers see it for themselves. I'm a guy, Michael and I have a collection of needles and thread (yes including blue) should I lose a button or even tear a hole in my jeans.. I don't do alterations though. Having a needle is a pretty basic household and personal life hack I'd say, although you'd probably disagree with me. Perhaps Betty wanted a thread colour that would stand out against the beige colour of the baby's petticoat she was using, (could Elsie have been out of black?) as a reference to where she had already sewed. Or maybe in a moment of fun, thought it would be a fitting colour for a boy? What if the diameter of the blue thread was best suited for the width of the eye of the needle she had? I wonder sometimes if you ever consider possibilities such as the above, as opposed to this kind of routine and inherent default towards conspiracy. Methinks you are oft times overly impressed by some of the noise within your personal dark corners, Mr. Garsson and I'm surprised you haven't turned up an inventory of thread belonging to Elsie Whateley in March of 1932, by now. With advances in DNA testing at this time, many would have been shouting (if they weren't already) for testing of the bones to answer once and for all that they belonged to Charlie. I tend to believe the remains and personal artifacts were removed due to a combination of personal reasons that in no way related to anyone wanting to hide anything. Are you suggesting they did? Of course, there is the possibility the bones were removed to dissuade outside interests from DNA testing them in light of Lindbergh's German family claims, but if that were the case, why remove all of the other items as well? Because no one had really processed it thoroughly enough until that time, perhaps? I'm not sure really. I just thought it was pretty strange to see human bones on display in little bottles there, especially in light of the fact they were assumed to belong to Charlie. I have to wonder how you would have felt under similar circumstances had they belonged to one of your deceased family members.
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Post by Michael on Sept 6, 2020 9:25:09 GMT -5
I was being sarcastic about the needle Joe. Gee whiz. But to answer your question, I have a little sewing kit, not unlike one of those the Army hands out. I also have an additional pack of needles because there's nothing worse then getting a splinter without one handy. One of those things that you never need until you do. Anyway, I'll put you down as an "I don't know" when it comes to the thread.
Concerning how I would have felt .... as I implied previously, it wouldn't have taken me decades to figure that one out. Either I would be upset or I wouldn't be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 10:40:52 GMT -5
If I could just jump in here briefly with a few thoughts. I really wish I could have seen that shirt to examine the sewing and the thread. From what I am able to glean about the thread it sounds like the spool used was a decorative thread because of the comments made about the intensity of the color and the shiny condition of that thread. I have a whole selection of colorful, high sheen thread that I use for embroidery work on my embroidery machine in my sewing studio.
I find the use of this type of thread to be a bit unusual for this shirt. This was supposed to be a utilitarian shirt, was it not? This was going to cover the Vicks that was applied to Charlie's chest. It was going to get covered up with other pieces of clothing. The use of that highly polished thread for such a shirt seems odd.
The other thing I want to mention is that Elsie's statement should be checked. She never gave Betty any needle or thread that night to make anything for Charlie. Check Anne's statements for that night. She provided the needle and the thread for that shirt. Anne is very clear in both of her March 1932 statements about doing this. All three of these women lied on the witness stand at the Flemington trial about this whole episode. We should be asking why that was necessary.
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Post by Wayne on Sept 6, 2020 16:58:43 GMT -5
I wonder if the thread is still at the NJSP Museum? Since it belonged to Elsie Whateley and not the Lindberghs, did the Lindbergh estate claim it when they took the other items? Exhibit Number: S-28 Description: Blue thread Date Entered as Evidence: January 7, 1935 Transcript Location: Volume IV, Page 642 Location in Archives: The thread Betty Gow used to sew Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr.’s
nightshirt is located in Lindbergh Evidence Box 1, found in the Lindbergh Storage
Facility.
Significance in the Trial: On the night of March 1, 1932 before Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr. was put to bed he spit up on his nightshirt prompting Betty Gow, his nursemaid, to make him a new one. Gow asked Elsie Whatley, the maid, for thread. Whatley gave Gow this blue silco thread and Gow preceded to sew the flannel nightshirt (S-13). Also, if it helps, you can see the stitching here (enlarge it as much as you can)--
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2020 17:34:19 GMT -5
I wonder if the thread is still at the NJSP Museum? Since it belonged to Elsie Whateley and not the Lindberghs, did the Lindbergh estate claim it when they took the other items? According to Elsie's March 1932 statement she never gave anyone any thread or needle or scissors to make anything for Charlie. Anne had the thread and provided it. She says so twice in March 1932. She does not mention getting anything from Elsie Elsie says nothing about giving anything to Anne either that night in March. Since the thread was used at the trial and identified as evidence by the testimony offered regarding it, the evidence description reflects the false testimony of Elsie Whateley at the trial. There was a lot of lies being told at that trial by many people. That includes the Lindberghs. They both testified that Charlie was a healthy child. We all know he wasn't. So what is one more lie about the thread then. Anne would testify she did not get the thread, (she had the thread herself and did not need to get it from anyone), because Elsie was going to tell her lie about giving the thread to Betty who never got it from Elsie to begin with. Lies are lies no matter who is telling them. Thanks for posting that photo!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Sept 8, 2020 10:15:52 GMT -5
I was being sarcastic about the needle Joe. Gee whiz. But to answer your question, I have a little sewing kit, not unlike one of those the Army hands out. I also have an additional pack of needles because there's nothing worse then getting a splinter without one handy. One of those things that you never need until you do. Anyway, I'll put you down as an "I don't know" when it comes to the thread. Concerning how I would have felt .... as I implied previously, it wouldn't have taken me decades to figure that one out. Either I would be upset or I wouldn't be. Try as I might, I still can't wrap my mind around your claim of sarcasm here. I mean in one breath, you're essentially stating that a more mundane thread colour like black or white could have been used as opposed to this "striking colour" (blue). I think I have a pretty good understanding here that you're intimating the blue thread would therefore intentionally serve as a more positive identification marker for when the body was discovered, ie. yes this is Charlie alright, so we can stop searching now, and by the way, no more extortion attempts! Then you go on to say it's a lucky thing she happened to have a needle as well. Huhhh? How do I take that other than as an expression to indicate your notion that everything had been staged here for Operation True Blue Identification to be deployed, with needle and thread at the ready? Michael, I am smiling as well, so if something has totally flown over my head here, please just expand a little for my benefit. Do you have a documented source or personal opinion as to why the bones and all personal effects of Charlie were removed from the Archives by the Lindbergh Family?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 14:08:10 GMT -5
I have a pretty good understanding here that you're intimating the blue thread would therefore intentionally serve as a more positive identification marker for when the body was discovered, ie. yes this is Charlie alright, so we can stop searching now, and by the way, no more extortion attempts! This was not directed to me but I need to respond to it. What you say above, Joe, is essentially what happened. That thread used on that handmade shirt became the main piece of ID that the Lindbergh baby had been found. Based on that thread Schwarzkopf would tell Anne that her son was found and he was dead. Schwarzkopf would hold a news conference by 7 p.m. on May 12 announcing the finding of the Lindbergh baby and that he was dead and the investigation would now be a murder investigation. All this was done based on that piece of clothing sewn with that blue thread. The autopsy hadn't even been done yet. Gow and Lindbergh had yet to visit the morgue and identify that corpse. The shirt and the thread used were considered strong enough evidence to declare that it was Charlie who was found in the Mount Rose woods. There were no more extortion attempts either.
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Post by Joe on Sept 8, 2020 14:21:52 GMT -5
I have a pretty good understanding here that you're intimating the blue thread would therefore intentionally serve as a more positive identification marker for when the body was discovered, ie. yes this is Charlie alright, so we can stop searching now, and by the way, no more extortion attempts! This was not directed to me but I need to respond to it. What you say above, Joe, is essentially what happened. That thread used on that handmade shirt became the main piece of ID that the Lindbergh baby had been found. Based on that thread Schwarzkopf would tell Anne that her son was found and he was dead. Schwarzkopf would hold a news conference by 7 p.m. on May 12 announcing the finding of the Lindbergh baby and that he was dead and the investigation would now be a murder investigation. All this was done based on that piece of clothing sewn with that blue thread. The autopsy hadn't even been done yet. Gow and Lindbergh had yet to visit the morgue and identify that corpse. The shirt and the thread used were considered strong enough evidence to declare that it was Charlie who was found in the Mount Rose woods. There were no more extortion attempts either. Amy, do you believe the blue thread was intentionally used as a marker, with the foreknowledge of the household that Charlie would be disappearing that night? I mean, would the blue thread factor really have been necessary considering all of the other irrefutable anatomical points of identification that would reasonably have concluded the corpse on Mount Rose hill was actually Charlie?
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Post by Sue on Sept 8, 2020 18:56:21 GMT -5
Joe, Amy:
I have a sewing box that's over 40 years old that is full of many spools of thread. I looked the other day, and saw about 10 spools in many shades of blue.
Maybe Elsie had an extensive array of spools of thread of the blue variety?
I wonder how many thimbles and seam rippers were in her sewing box?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2020 7:53:06 GMT -5
Amy, do you believe the blue thread was intentionally used as a marker, with the foreknowledge of the household that Charlie would be disappearing that night? I don't see the thread Anne gave to Betty as being premeditated based on a crime where it would be used as an identifying factor. It did end up becoming one though. Like I said above, the thread did become a factor used in making the initial identification of the corpse no matter how one views the use of the thread. The other anatomical points would not become a determining factor until much later on May 12. Schwarzkopf's actions prior to that point were predicated on that shirt and thread. Michael covers this whole issue in Volume 1, Chapter 15. I want to revisit this point you made. I think it is important. As Wilentz prepared for the Flemington trial, he would, no doubt, have tried to consider the testimony and evidence from defensive angles based on the questioning he planned to pursue with various witnesses as various pieces of evidence were to be presented to the court and for the jury's consideration. The idea that the thread in that homemade shirt might be used in defense cross examination to imply "inside job" would need to be nullified during direct examination. To make that thread spontaneous and innocent, how Betty obtained the thread and who she obtained it from would have to shift away from Anne. This would be done by having the testimony divert away from the March 1932 statements of these three women. Betty would now be the one who gets the thread and Elsie is the one who had this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2020 8:05:49 GMT -5
Joe, Amy: I have a sewing box that's over 40 years old that is full of many spools of thread. I looked the other day, and saw about 10 spools in many shades of blue. Maybe Elsie had an extensive array of spools of thread of the blue variety? I wonder how many thimbles and seam rippers were in her sewing box? That is really cool that you have so many spools of older thread. When my grandmother passed, I was given her sewing box because I was the sewer in the family. I still have most everything that her box contained. Are the spools you have in your collection wooden spools? I agree that Elsie would have had sewing needles and thread available. No doubt blue thread would have been included. My guess is that Elsie would have had various thimbles in her box. Not sure about the seam ripper. If Elsie did, I venture she probably would have had only one.
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Post by Michael on Sept 9, 2020 10:24:00 GMT -5
Try as I might, I still can't wrap my mind around your claim of sarcasm here. Are you kidding me right now? Okay, here's what I wrote: What she had available? So all she had was this striking color? I guess they were lucky she happened to have a needle too. Let's play a game shall we? What part of this is sarcasm? A. The Color
B. The Needle
C. Both If you can't answer this there's nothing I can do or say to help you better understand. Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to be so worried about what you believe I am "intimating" that it distracts your thoughts. Do you have a documented source or personal opinion as to why the bones and all personal effects of Charlie were removed from the Archives by the Lindbergh Family? The only people who know why are those responsible. What I will say, again, is that there is no way I believe it occurred because one morning they woke up and were spontaneously disturbed by it. Those bones were in the possession of the NJSP since 1932, and were on display for a very long time.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Sept 9, 2020 11:15:49 GMT -5
Try as I might, I still can't wrap my mind around your claim of sarcasm here. Are you kidding me right now? Okay, here's what I wrote: What she had available? So all she had was this striking color? I guess they were lucky she happened to have a needle too. Let's play a game shall we? What part of this is sarcasm? A. The Color
B. The Needle
C. Both If you can't answer this there's nothing I can do or say to help you better understand. Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to be so worried about what you believe I am "intimating" that it distracts your thoughts. I originally asked you whether you believed the blue thread was intentionally used as an identification marker if there was ever any question about whether or not the corpse was Charlie. The reason I was curious was because of your choice of words, "So all she had was this striking color?" It sounds like you have a hard time believing that that colour of thread would have been used, unless there was some deeper meaning behind it. That's all, Michael. (Joe)
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Post by Sue on Sept 11, 2020 4:11:05 GMT -5
Hi Amy,
No wooden spools, but a few dozen buttons!
The spools must have been purchased in the 70s and 80s, and the thread is still strong!
That is so nice that you have held onto the sewing box from your grandmother! I'm sure you cherish it, and think of her every time you see it!
Do you still sew, Amy?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2020 14:11:59 GMT -5
Hi Amy, No wooden spools, but a few dozen buttons! The spools must have been purchased in the 70s and 80s, and the thread is still strong! That is so nice that you have held onto the sewing box from your grandmother! I'm sure you cherish it, and think of her every time you see it! Do you still sew, Amy? Hi Sue, There are sewers who collect buttons! Those are definitely keepers. I am sure the thread is strong! Good thread these days can easily cost $12 for a single spool. Yes, I do spend time sewing. It is one of my favorite things to do. I read with surprise in the Suspect No.1 book, in Act 1, Chapter 10, page 89, the sentence that Charlie was covered the night of the crime with a sheet, two blankets and a quilt. I have never encountered a quilt being used that night anywhere but in this book. Checked the end notes for a source for this but there was none. Regardless, I liked the thought that Charlie had one!
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Post by Sue on Sept 12, 2020 18:23:50 GMT -5
Hi Amy,
I loved Home Economics class in school.
Did your grandmother teach you to sew?
She must have been your best teacher!
Regarding the quilt, I have read that a blue and white "comfortable" was found on the Lindbergh grounds.
I don't know if "comfortable" means comforter or quilt.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 8:18:58 GMT -5
Hi Sue,
My grandmother would weigh in on my earliest efforts at sewing doll clothes. She was encouraging of my efforts even when the results were certainly less than perfect!
I was not aware of a finding of a "comfortable" on the Lindbergh grounds. I am not certain either if the "comfortable" reference could be a quilt. Definitely sounds like a bedding article either way.
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Post by Kim on Sept 24, 2020 7:24:25 GMT -5
Do you consider one case or multiple crimes? [br......I have two words. Hawley Bowlus.
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