Remembering Isidor Fisch

[Sue]

Thank you very much!

This sketch makes things much clearer!

Do you think they had enough monument businesses in the area?!!

[Michael]

Nov 30, 2022 17:00:39 GMT -5 Sue said:

Thank you very much!

This sketch makes things much clearer!

Do you think they had enough monument businesses in the area?!!

I shouldn't have referred to it as a "sketch" since its quite obvious the officer actually typed it there. Anyway, glad it helped, and yes, I saw that too. Hard to believe there were so many. As you can see in the Nosovitsky chapter, Collino obviously had the means to hire a PI so his business must have been making money at the time.

[hiram]

Take Another Look:  Here we have a photo of "John's Birthday Party"  celebrating the 25th birthday of John Mohrdieck in
March of 1931.  We have discussed here on the board who attended and the reasons Hauptmann had the photo in his
possession.  The signature on the back is that of Isidor Fisch and with the date of the celebration. 

The mob did not use written agreements since those, if found, could be used as evidence in a trial.
Example:  the photo of Enrico Cerardi with a member of a mob in a deserted gazebo that was shown
on the Board some time ago.  The two men had obviously come to some kind of agreement.
What I am suggesting here is that the birthday party was a front for a .  The meeting in which the
participants reached an agreement. The birthday boy is in the back row, third from the left in a
secondary position, not dominating the scene as would be suspected at one's birthday party.
The man who dominates is the eddark-haired man, taller than the others, and dressed in a dark
suit complete with a vest.  I suggest that he has asked Fisch to set up the group and came with
a proposal of some kind, most likely illegal and possibilty connected with the transporting of
alcohol. Prohibition was still in effect in March of 1931. The photo was most likely sent to all
the group members to remind them of their agreement and motivate them to follow through
as the record had been made through the picture.

[hiram]

On the Canadian Connection:

The state of Maine went dry in 1851  and continued to be dry until the repeal of the 18th Amendment. Maine residents 
were experienced in techniques of rum running and the making of illegal alcoholic beverages. Prince Edward Island in
Nova Scotia was dry at one time, and the Canadians did their own smuggling of alcohol to thirsty inhabitants in that place.
Dutch Schultz, New York mobster, was heavily involved in Canadian smuggling. The ships from Canada entered various
Maine ports.  The alcohol was unloaded and then taken inland to be stored in various out-of-the-way places , like old
sheds or barns in remote areas.  Schultz used the port at Freeport, Maine to unload the liquor (not to be confused with
Freeport, NY).  Schultz purchased three 42 foot running boats, each of which had room for 600 cases of liquor. His
most important boat was called "Nellie J. Banks": she was 57 feet long, with a beam of 18 feet and a depth of seven feet.
Schultz expanded his business from the Bronx dto Manhattan's upper West side, Washington Heights, Yorkville and
Harlem.  He then established his headquarters in the East 149th St. in the Bronx.

So how could this be important?  A photo of Joseph Cerardi was taken in an unkempt gazebo. He is standing next to
a mobster with whom he has just entered a relationship. The photo provides the proof of the agreement. The mobster
bears a resemblance to Duch Schultz, but the individual is clearly one of the mob.  In 1931 Joseph Cerardi lived on
an old farm in Liberty, Maine for a few months. There has been some speculation that he might have been planning
to kidnap the Lindbergh baby who was spending a few months at the family home near Rockport, Maine.  I suggest
that Cerardi was living on the old farm in Liberty, which is about 1 and 1/2 hours  drive from Freeport, in order to
guard a stash of stored liquor on the property.  He would be paid for this endeavor, and the owner of the farm would
also be given some kind of stipend.  This situation also happened quite frequently in the MidWest during Prohibition.   
Cerardi also lived on the property owned by Charles Schippel's mother-in-law for several months following the Lindbergh baby's
kidnapping. The road down to Princeton was known for its liquor traffic. The baby's body was found near the farm, which
most likely was used as a place for storing liquor in the old buildings, like the chicken coop. Again, Cerardi was hired to
guard the stash until the liquor could be transported to its intended destination.

      The Lister brothers, John and Earl, were from the Bingham and Moscow towns in Maine and would have been well
acquainted with the types of smuggling that went on in Maine for decades prior to the establishment of the 18th Amendment
and would have known of the ships carrying Canadian booze to the ports in Maine. The two were involved in the hunt
that included Hauptmann and Henkel in Maine of November of 1932. Although Isidor Fisch did not participate in the
hunt--since he probably had physical limitations--he would have known the Listers through Carl Henkel who had been
introduced to John Lister by Augusta Hile, Henkel's mother,  according to the statement by John Lister's then wife,
Dorothy.  On more observation:  Ellis Sanborn of Bridgton, Maine, stated that Isidor Fisch had come to the residence
of which he was the caretaker, to propose housing a kidnapped child for several days until the ransom was paid.
Sanborn's wife Erna nee Cahn, knew Fisch and wanted to accept the proposal though Sanborn refused to go along
with the idea. While the mob made their money through booze, drugs, and prostitution, they did not engage in
kidnapping, but individual rum-runners who were not striictly members of the mob, though employed by them.
might not hesitate if there appeared to be an opportunity to make money.  There was a major depression going
on, people were unemployed, and some were easily persuaded to engage in illegal activities in order to support
themselves.

[hiram]

Major Source for Above:  "Maine's Prohibition: 82 Years in the Making"  published by the Maine Memory Network.

[feffe08]

Did the police check Fish activities the night of the kidnapping?

[Michael]

Jan 14, 2023 7:38:28 GMT -5 feffe08 said:

Did the police check Fish activities the night of the kidnapping?

Yes and no. They discovered some witnesses who claimed to verify his whereabouts on March 1. The first was Albert Kurtz, who I wrote about in V3 starting on page 430. Using his diary as a date reference, he placed Fisch in his office at 4:30PM along with both Schaefer and Stendler who were Fisch's friends. Schaefer backed this up saying they left about 4PM. According to Kurtz, he sent Fisch to see Schloser after he left his office. Schleser, it should be remembered, was the mole planted by the Prosecution by pretending to be a Defense witness. He claimed Fisch did come to see him leaving about 9PM. Kurtz was a shady lawyer who had once been recommended for disbarment due to a bribery allegation. The Prosecution made him "Special Assistant" to the Prosecution putting him in charge of all the NY witnesses who were attached to the Fisch testimony in some way. Those witnesses originally included himself, Schleser, Stendler, Schaefer, Diamond, Hoerber, Henry Jung, Erna Jung, Joseph Levenson, etc.

Levenson, and both Henry and Erna Jung testified that Fisch showed up at the Jung home on March 1. According to Jung's statement of 1/8/35, he was there between 8PM and 10PM. According to Jung, Fisch came to settle up on a $700 debt Schleser owed him. A document dated February 6, owing Jung $700 in 24 days was produced in Court (S-305). This was shown because March 1 was the day this money was due. Some other notes, entered as S-304 and D-70, were also produced to substantiate the date. Unlike most exhibits, these items no longer exist and are not at the NJSP Archives. It's best for everyone to consult the exact testimony and cross-examination for themselves about this. Neither Kurtz nor Schleser were ever called to testify and no one else testified about this alibi. Hoerber testified about Fisch being at her home on the night of April 2, providing an alibi for him during the ransom payoff. However, in a strange twist, Hoerber wrote Schwarzkopf on 2/25/36 just prior to Hauptmann's execution. A Trooper was dispatched and she told him she believed both Fisch and Schleser were involved in the kidnapping.

In short, Fisch was dead. Wilentz tried (unsuccessfully) to keep the fact Hauptmann and Fisch were in a partnership from the Jury. By the time of the State's strategy, the NJSP goal was to help neutralize the Defense argument that Fisch had been involved.

[Michael]

I should also say that Jung claimed in his statement that Fisch came to his home several times after the meeting in question as well.

[Michael]

[hiram]

Isidor Fisch and Charles Schleser were "business partners" in the early 1930s, bilking others and borrowing money
to invest in a defunct pie company. Schleser drove a booze truck for a time.  He and Joe DiGrassi ran a real estate
company  once near Plainfield NJ.  Fisch's friends were convinced that Fisch was borrowing money in order to launder
the Lindbergh ransom money.  DiGrasssi was said to be short, stout and having problems with the left eye.
Schleser appears to be a suspicious character though Reilly used him as a mole.  question:  Does anyone have
a photo or likeness of Charles Schleser that could be posted on the Board?  
This is one person who should have been examined more closely.

[Michael]

Apr 8, 2023 7:43:55 GMT -5 hiram said:

Isidor Fisch and Charles Schleser were "business partners" in the early 1930s, bilking others and borrowing money
to invest in a defunct pie company. Schleser drove a booze truck for a time.  He and Joe DiGrassi ran a real estate
company  once near Plainfield NJ.  Fisch's friends were convinced that Fisch was borrowing money in order to launder
the Lindbergh ransom money.  DiGrasssi was said to be short, stout and having problems with the left eye.
Schleser appears to be a suspicious character though Reilly used him as a mole.  question:  Does anyone have
a photo or likeness of Charles Schleser that could be posted on the Board?  
This is one person who should have been examined more closely.

Unfortunately, I don't have one of Schleser. I do have one of DiGrassi if you are interested I could search it out for you.

[hiram]

Thanks, Michael.  I would appreciate it.  The Schleser, DiGrasi, and Fisch trio shoud have been examined more closely in
the kidnapping investigation.  They were also active in Plainfield NJ near where the table with the message was found.

[hiram]

By way of explanation:   Charles Schleser and Joe DiGrassi had a real estate business in Plainfield NJ at one time.
The table might have been in their NJ office and  disposed of iwhen they quit the business.

[Michael]

Apr 9, 2023 4:41:40 GMT -5 hiram said:

Thanks, Michael.  I would appreciate it.  The Schleser, DiGrasi, and Fisch trio shoud have been examined more closely in the kidnapping investigation.  They were also active in Plainfield NJ near where the table with the message was found.

I have to appologize Hiram. I definitely have a picture of him but for some reason it isn't in my Fisch files and I cannot think of another place I'd put it so here its happened to me again. I can only guess that as I wrote about Fisch in V2, its possible I misfiled it somewhere but its impossible for me to figure it out. But since you brought up the subject, there is something Kennedy wrote in his book that has always bothered me (Pages 135-6 paperback):

He returned clandestinely to New York, where he was seen in April 1932, and later people said he bore a resemblance to the Italianate look-out observed at the Woodlawn Cemetery.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Reich and Condon supposedly saw this lookout, and I've written everything there is on this in V2 which includes the various descriptions. So - who thought he looked like this man? Reich? Condon? It's written like it was other "people" and neither of these two. And if it was the cops, why not say that? And of course there's no source. Anyway, having seen the picture myself, I don't know how anyone could draw that conclusion.

[Michael]

Found one... I have a better copy somewhere else but this should work:



pasteboard.co/L4SZWBWzOIql.jpg

[hiram]

Thank you, Michael, for posting the photo of Joe DeGrasi. He and his partner Charles Schleser would have been well
acquainted with the roads in New Jersey and New York which they traveled in the several businesses.  Condon seemed
to be involved in his thinking that some Italians were connected to the kidnapping gang for some reason.  Is there any
evidence that Joe DeGrasi knew Joe Cerardi, the one who pretended to be a bootblack in Central Park and lived on
the Shippell farm for several months?  "Schleser" is spelled several different ways.  He was probably from Germany
or Austria and so would know the language or more likely a dialect. Schleser provided Fisch, his former partner, with
an alibi for March 1 and protested that his friend was honest. While Schleser was a mole among the Fisch former
group of friends, he would have been interested in protecting himself as well.

[Michael]

Apr 10, 2023 7:07:51 GMT -5 hiram said:

Is there any evidence that Joe DeGrasi knew Joe Cerardi, the one who pretended to be a bootblack in Central Park and lived on the Shippell farm for several months?

I've never found anything to indicate a connection.

[hiram]

Thanks again, Michael.  i would also like to add that Charles Schleser was known to have a serious gambling
problem. He did not always repay his debts as a result and that would not help his business whether in 
real estate or delivering pies. The booze truck may have been his solution to the financial problems.
One can only wonder if Isidor Fisch knew about the gambling.  Schleser was hardly an ideal business partner.

[hiram]

It's quite possible that Fisch did want to back out of his business ventures with Schleser and decided to begin a
partnership with BR Hauptmann whom he thought was more dependable and more naive.  The fur business could
not have done well at the time of the depression but it was maintained as a front for what Fisch was actually
doing.  Hauptmann could not have been making much either.  His "investments" were most likely another front
while he had something else going on the side.  Seems strange that he could not pay for his utilities at the end
of March in 1932 but had plenty of money for a hunting trip in November of that year.

[luf12]

Dec 30, 2022 12:10:58 GMT -5 hiram said:

On the Canadian Connection:

The state of Maine went dry in 1851  and continued to be dry until the repeal of the 18th Amendment. Maine residents 
were experienced in techniques of rum running and the making of illegal alcoholic beverages. Prince Edward Island in
Nova Scotia was dry at one time, and the Canadians did their own smuggling of alcohol to thirsty inhabitants in that place.
Dutch Schultz, New York mobster, was heavily involved in Canadian smuggling. The ships from Canada entered various
Maine ports.  The alcohol was unloaded and then taken inland to be stored in various out-of-the-way places , like old
sheds or barns in remote areas.  Schultz used the port at Freeport, Maine to unload the liquor (not to be confused with
Freeport, NY).  Schultz purchased three 42 foot running boats, each of which had room for 600 cases of liquor. His
most important boat was called "Nellie J. Banks": she was 57 feet long, with a beam of 18 feet and a depth of seven feet.
Schultz expanded his business from the Bronx dto Manhattan's upper West side, Washington Heights, Yorkville and
Harlem.  He then established his headquarters in the East 149th St. in the Bronx.

So how could this be important?  A photo of Joseph Cerardi was taken in an unkempt gazebo. He is standing next to
a mobster with whom he has just entered a relationship. The photo provides the proof of the agreement. The mobster
bears a resemblance to Duch Schultz, but the individual is clearly one of the mob.  In 1931 Joseph Cerardi lived on
an old farm in Liberty, Maine for a few months. There has been some speculation that he might have been planning
to kidnap the Lindbergh baby who was spending a few months at the family home near Rockport, Maine.  I suggest
that Cerardi was living on the old farm in Liberty, which is about 1 and 1/2 hours  drive from Freeport, in order to
guard a stash of stored liquor on the property.  He would be paid for this endeavor, and the owner of the farm would
also be given some kind of stipend.  This situation also happened quite frequently in the MidWest during Prohibition.   
Cerardi also lived on the property owned by Charles Schippel's mother-in-law for several months following the Lindbergh baby's
kidnapping. The road down to Princeton was known for its liquor traffic. The baby's body was found near the farm, which
most likely was used as a place for storing liquor in the old buildings, like the chicken coop. Again, Cerardi was hired to
guard the stash until the liquor could be transported to its intended destination.

      The Lister brothers, John and Earl, were from the Bingham and Moscow towns in Maine and would have been well
acquainted with the types of smuggling that went on in Maine for decades prior to the establishment of the 18th Amendment
and would have known of the ships carrying Canadian booze to the ports in Maine. The two were involved in the hunt
that included Hauptmann and Henkel in Maine of November of 1932. Although Isidor Fisch did not participate in the
hunt--since he probably had physical limitations--he would have known the Listers through Carl Henkel who had been
introduced to John Lister by Augusta Hile, Henkel's mother,  according to the statement by John Lister's then wife,
Dorothy.  On more observation:  Ellis Sanborn of Bridgton, Maine, stated that Isidor Fisch had come to the residence
of which he was the caretaker, to propose housing a kidnapped child for several days until the ransom was paid.
Sanborn's wife Erna nee Cahn, knew Fisch and wanted to accept the proposal though Sanborn refused to go along
with the idea. While the mob made their money through booze, drugs, and prostitution, they did not engage in
kidnapping, but individual rum-runners who were not striictly members of the mob, though employed by them.
might not hesitate if there appeared to be an opportunity to make money.  There was a major depression going
on, people were unemployed, and some were easily persuaded to engage in illegal activities in order to support
themselves.

Dutch Schultz was former student of John Condon

[thestonesunturned]

Dec 30, 2022 12:10:58 GMT -5 hiram said:

On the Canadian Connection:

The state of Maine went dry in 1851  and continued to be dry until the repeal of the 18th Amendment. Maine residents 
were experienced in techniques of rum running and the making of illegal alcoholic beverages. Prince Edward Island in
Nova Scotia was dry at one time, and the Canadians did their own smuggling of alcohol to thirsty inhabitants in that place.
Dutch Schultz, New York mobster, was heavily involved in Canadian smuggling. The ships from Canada entered various
Maine ports.  The alcohol was unloaded and then taken inland to be stored in various out-of-the-way places , like old
sheds or barns in remote areas.  Schultz used the port at Freeport, Maine to unload the liquor (not to be confused with
Freeport, NY).  Schultz purchased three 42 foot running boats, each of which had room for 600 cases of liquor. His
most important boat was called "Nellie J. Banks": she was 57 feet long, with a beam of 18 feet and a depth of seven feet.
Schultz expanded his business from the Bronx dto Manhattan's upper West side, Washington Heights, Yorkville and
Harlem.  He then established his headquarters in the East 149th St. in the Bronx.

So how could this be important?  A photo of Joseph Cerardi was taken in an unkempt gazebo. He is standing next to
a mobster with whom he has just entered a relationship. The photo provides the proof of the agreement. The mobster
bears a resemblance to Duch Schultz, but the individual is clearly one of the mob.  In 1931 Joseph Cerardi lived on
an old farm in Liberty, Maine for a few months. There has been some speculation that he might have been planning
to kidnap the Lindbergh baby who was spending a few months at the family home near Rockport, Maine.  I suggest
that Cerardi was living on the old farm in Liberty, which is about 1 and 1/2 hours  drive from Freeport, in order to
guard a stash of stored liquor on the property.  He would be paid for this endeavor, and the owner of the farm would
also be given some kind of stipend.  This situation also happened quite frequently in the MidWest during Prohibition.   
Cerardi also lived on the property owned by Charles Schippel's mother-in-law for several months following the Lindbergh baby's
kidnapping. The road down to Princeton was known for its liquor traffic. The baby's body was found near the farm, which
most likely was used as a place for storing liquor in the old buildings, like the chicken coop. Again, Cerardi was hired to
guard the stash until the liquor could be transported to its intended destination.

      The Lister brothers, John and Earl, were from the Bingham and Moscow towns in Maine and would have been well
acquainted with the types of smuggling that went on in Maine for decades prior to the establishment of the 18th Amendment
and would have known of the ships carrying Canadian booze to the ports in Maine. The two were involved in the hunt
that included Hauptmann and Henkel in Maine of November of 1932. Although Isidor Fisch did not participate in the
hunt--since he probably had physical limitations--he would have known the Listers through Carl Henkel who had been
introduced to John Lister by Augusta Hile, Henkel's mother,  according to the statement by John Lister's then wife,
Dorothy.  On more observation:  Ellis Sanborn of Bridgton, Maine, stated that Isidor Fisch had come to the residence
of which he was the caretaker, to propose housing a kidnapped child for several days until the ransom was paid.
Sanborn's wife Erna nee Cahn, knew Fisch and wanted to accept the proposal though Sanborn refused to go along
with the idea. While the mob made their money through booze, drugs, and prostitution, they did not engage in
kidnapping, but individual rum-runners who were not striictly members of the mob, though employed by them.
might not hesitate if there appeared to be an opportunity to make money.  There was a major depression going
on, people were unemployed, and some were easily persuaded to engage in illegal activities in order to support
themselves.

Nice. And with Bruno clearly laundering money for "someone..."

Uh, you know Arthur Shimon "Dutch Schultz" Flegenheimer's parents were German Jewish immigrants, right? Joseph Cerardi and Sophie Rosenthal Cerardi, her sister Loretta (naturally) and brother in law Mr Regenstrief, and Joseph Maran (nope. NOT an Irish name, as many assume...) were ALL Yiddish immigrants from Austro-Hungary. Isidor Fisch was a Jewish furrier and moneychanger right out of an NSDAP comic book. (Full disclosure--MY OWN ancestors were Jewish furriers who settled Flatbush in 1651 and built the first synagogue in North America. They did business on a modest scale with Astor. They also owned stock in various banks..) Since most of them also lived in the Bronx, where Dutch grew up, it's not surprising in the slightest that these people would get to know each other long before straightened circumstances forced them into a life of shady shenanigans. And you already know that Betty Gow's "Purple Gang" was run by Jewish gangster Harry Pleischer. "Mickey" Rosner was a Jewish gangster. That's why Lindy announced to the media that he had reached out to Rosner, and not, say, Al Capone. People think the Italians and Sicilians and invented organized crime. They didn't. They took it over from Irish and Jewish gangsters.

The Lister brothers were rum-runners. Bruno (a criminal, himself) had a day-trading account at Steiner, Rouse, and Stroock--Jews, more, or less--laundering money for blind pigs like Jimmie Donahue's Black Sea Hotel. They were a crime "family" just like the Manson "Family." So, what? Well, Lindy's fellow members of the Wolfie Shickelgruber Admiration Society tried to "frame" the "Jews" for framing Hauptmann. That's funny, because, before the sheets on Little Lindy's bed were cold, The Colonel was on the blower to Jewish gangster Mickey Rosner. Like, he already "knew" somehow that Little Lindy was snatched by Jewish gangsters, like the snatchers his nursemaid ran with in Motor City. But, instead of framing "the Jews" like Isidor Fisch or Harry Pleischer for snatching his brat, The Colonel's friends frame them for framing Hauptmann. You know. The way Jewish Attorney General David T Wilentz of Wilentz, Goldman & Spitzer DID frame him.

Funny. You know? Not, funny like, the Italian Army. Funny, like, that swastika painted inside the nose cone of The Spirit of St Louis.

[username]

I think that Fisch was directly involved with the kidnapping & murder, in a group with Betty Gow, Red Johnson, and Violet Sharp.

[xjd]

Feb 29, 2024 19:58:41 GMT -5 username said:

I think that Fisch was directly involved with the kidnapping & murder, in a group with Betty Gow, Red Johnson, and Violet Sharp.

my theory on this case changes almost daily, but i too tend believe a lot of things point to several people being involved. BUT having said that, the ransom amount (even the additional amount) does not seem like much for that many people, even by 1930s standards considering the risk involved. and Isidor passing away when he did just makes his part (or non-part) so much more mysterious.

as i say, my pet theory changes often. that is why i keep reading this board

[Joe]

Feb 29, 2024 20:13:47 GMT -5 xjd said:

Feb 29, 2024 19:58:41 GMT -5 username said:

I think that Fisch was directly involved with the kidnapping & murder, in a group with Betty Gow, Red Johnson, and Violet Sharp.

my theory on this case changes almost daily, but i too tend believe a lot of things point to several people being involved. BUT having said that, the ransom amount (even the additional amount) does not seem like much for that many people, even by 1930s standards considering the risk involved. and Isidor passing away when he did just makes his part (or non-part) so much more mysterious.

as i say, my pet theory changes often. that is why i keep reading this board

There are many aspects of this case that point to suspicion of involvement of more than one accomplice assisting Richard Hauptmann, eg. reported number of footprints leading from house, alleged lookouts, street vendor visits, 'Our Lady of Tuckahoe,' etc.  None of these though even approach the conclusiveness of the circumstantial physical evidence that convicted Hauptmann himself.  I do believe Isidor Fisch was potentially complicit after-the-fact, and only as a willing business partner of Hauptmann's within the laundering of funds which he probably came to understand were Lindbergh ransom money.  And that the prosecution was unwilling to draw him into their crime narrative in any way, for fear it might weaken their case, or even result in Hauptmann's acquittal. 

The crime scene evidence, most notably the ground outside the nursery window and beyond, was terribly mismanaged from an investigative standpoint, and those reports cannot be wholly accepted for any degree of conclusiveness as it relates to the potential number of participants at the scene. 

Based on the international celebrity of the victim's father, a highly confused and flawed investigation, the strangest nature of the crime itself and the unprecedented degree of speculation it generated and continues to generate even today, it's little wonder there have been so many varied theories floating about through the years.  Slice away all the fat though and I'd strongly venture the truth is much closer to the bone.