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Post by Wayne on Apr 12, 2020 10:27:39 GMT -5
Sigi just brought an article to my attention and after 80+ plus years, she might be the first to find this. Jeanette Smits, a New York reporter, covered Anna Hauptmann during the trial; in fact Smits lived with Anna for 5 months. In November 1935, True Detective Mysteries published one of Smit's articles entitled "How Much Did Hauptmann Tell His Wife?" The 7-page article is a pretty standard account of Smit's relationship and interviews with Anna. Then Sigi saw this on page 6, near the end of the article: Here's the entire article: How Much Did Hauptmann Tell His Wife by J....pdf (758.41 KB)
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Post by Sue on Apr 12, 2020 11:23:27 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
I can't view that article, but what do you make of the claims that Anna Hauptmann was suicidal?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 12, 2020 13:00:45 GMT -5
Sigi just brought an article to my attention and after 80+ plus years, she might be the first to find this. Jeanette Smits, a New York reporter, covered Anna Hauptmann during the trial; in fact Smits lived with Anna for 5 months. In November 1935, True Detective Mysteries published one of Smit's articles entitled "How Much Did Hauptmann Tell His Wife?" The 7-page article is a pretty standard account of Smit's relationship and interviews with Anna. Then Sigi saw this on page 6, near the end of the article: Here's the entire article: It's a great article Wayne, and thanks for posting. Sigi's observation is a good and the remark really stands out. There's lots to process here. To my knowledge, this article from November 1935 True Detective magazine, was first acknowledged in modern times by Jim Fisher in "The Lindbergh Case" as one of his sources. I tried to find this one years ago on eBay but could never track it down.
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Post by Wayne on Apr 12, 2020 13:33:24 GMT -5
Hi Sue-
I haven't heard the claims that Anna was suicidal. Do you have more info on that? And if want the article, please send me a PM.
Also, I found reference to another Smit article but I don't have it yet. I'll post it as soon as I get it.
Hi Joe -
Glad you liked it, I found it pretty interesting as well. And I wasn't saying that Sigi was the first to discover the article, I was merely saying she's the first that passage to my attention. If Fisher mentions it in his book, then I simply missed it (I know he lists it as a source on page 470, but so far I haven't been able to find another reference in his book. If you come across one, please let me know. And thanks). Also, I need to give Mark Falzini credit for scanning the article and sending it to Sigi.
Happy Easter everyone. Stay safe.
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Post by Wayne on Apr 12, 2020 14:01:09 GMT -5
Joe - In my above post, that's supposed to read: I was merely saying that Sigi's the first to draw my attention to that passage.
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Post by Sue on Apr 12, 2020 14:14:49 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
I dont know how to do PM, but maybe Steve can print out the article for me.
I'm sure he'll want one for himself!
Happy Easter to you also, Wayne!
Sue
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Post by Sue on Apr 12, 2020 14:36:54 GMT -5
Wayne,
Maybe Anna uttered things that she did not really mean?
She had to have been devastated under the circumstances, and very emotionally upset no matter what she knew to be true.
I have an article from the Buffalo Times from 1936 about Anna feeling suicidal. She might have felt despondent at the time, even though she knew in her heart that she would never take her own life.
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Post by trojanusc on Apr 12, 2020 15:29:04 GMT -5
Wayne, Maybe Anna uttered things that she did not really mean? She had to have been devastated under the circumstances, and very emotionally upset no matter what she knew to be true. I have an article from the Buffalo Times from 1936 about Anna feeling suicidal. She might have felt despondent at the time, even though she knew in her heart that she would never take her own life. Agreed, it also seems like something could have been taken out of context or her true meaning lost. For example, "get the money," could have been in relation to simply getting the money from Fisch.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 12, 2020 15:50:06 GMT -5
Joe - In my above post, that's supposed to read: I was merely saying that Sigi's the first to draw my attention to that passage. Thanks Wayne for explaining, and understood. I believe Jim Fisher probably referenced the article as a specific source for his general opinion as to whether or not Anna was aware of what her husband was really up to. I know back then he felt Anna was totally in the dark, but not sure how he feels these days. From the time I began studying this case in 2000, Anna has probably given me the most heartburn of all its characters, and for many reasons, I believe there's much more to her than meets the eye. I understand the position many have, that she only acted in total devotion towards her husband because she couldn't possibly feel any other way. At the same time, Richard professed his "total innocence" to the world, and we, as well as millions before us, know his words were an outright lie. And if that same person is fighting desperately for his life, knowing that if will be spared by confessing, and they still go to their death professing total innocence, it's not inconceivable to me that someone so intimately connected to her husband as Anna was, would indeed go the extra mile even to the point of her denial becoming the new truth, to maintain that illusion. I see a parallel of intent and value in her and Richard's messages to the world. I also believe this mutual understanding and the establishment of an oath of secrecy between them took place between the time Anna returned from Europe in 1932 and they began planning for a family in earnest. Just as Richard confided the dreadful secret of his criminal past in Germany before their marriage, I believe he would have felt compelled to release this far greater burden with Anna before moving on to the next stage in their lives. "Never give up Anni," he told her. And she never did.
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Post by xjd on Apr 12, 2020 16:58:44 GMT -5
this is fascinating, if true. "he was only supposed to get the money", does that mean Richard was Cemetery John? or that she knew he bought the hot ransom money?
also, i'm a little skeptical of 1930's journalistic license (fake news we would call it today). newspaper writers were not above doing some pretty awful things in order to sell papers.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 12, 2020 20:30:17 GMT -5
Hi Wayne, I can't view that article, but what do you make of the claims that Anna Hauptmann was suicidal? In my newspaper archival reading, I know I've seen an article written by a reporter who discusses Anna's apparent threat to jump with Mannfried off a third story roof onto the street below, if Richard was executed. I have no idea if it's true or not, but would love to have another read of it just the same. I may just do that once the libraries reopen and I can get back to those old microfiches!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 7:24:28 GMT -5
I have done so much newspaper archival reading myself. I seem to recall a story that there was some kind of suicide pact between Hauptmann and Anna should he be found guilty of the crime. Was there any truth to this?? There was good reporting and also sensationalizing going on by some newspapers so not everything said in stories is based in fact. I shall have to see if I can find that suicide pact story again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 8:59:49 GMT -5
I also believe this mutual understanding and the establishment of an oath of secrecy between them took place between the time Anna returned from Europe in 1932 and they began planning for a family in earnest. Just as Richard confided the dreadful secret of his criminal past in Germany before their marriage, I believe he would have felt compelled to release this far greater burden with Anna before moving on to the next stage in their lives. I recall you putting this theory on the board in the past. If I am recalling it correctly, you tied it to the weather the night of March 1, 1932 and Anna needing to walk home that cold and windy night from the bakery because Hauptmann did not come for her that night. Anna very clearly made the choice to believe in her husband. I think the Smits article gets it right that Anna's approach to the husband's place in a marriage is as head of the family and he is to be respected and believed no matter what. If Richard said he didn't do something, then he did not. I think she consistently chose to "not believe" things about Richard when she was confronted with them. There was always a reason or something was misunderstood by others when Richard's actions seemed to show he wasn't the perfect husband she wanted and needed to believe him to be. She was very protective of Richard. She saw this as her loving duty to her husband. You see this in Anna's September 21, 1934 statement when she was questioned in the Bronx District Attorney's office. It is a 32 page statement. Here is just a small portion of what shows the degree that Anna embraced truth on her terms: From Page 6 of the statement. Questioner is Assistant DA Breslin: Q - Did you notice any difference in his conduct after you came back from Europe? (1932) A - Yes. He met Mr. and Mrs. Hinkle. They live on 156th Street near Webster Avenue. I was there once. When I was in Germany he wrote to me once and sent me some pictures from a canoe he bought, and I noticed different faces, and he said he had good time and he told me when I come home that he met a young couple and they were very nice and that they were there in the house one night. I had something against them because I did not like it that they were in my house when I was away. He said, "Do you want me to introduce you to them?" and he asked me a few times, but I did not feel like going. One evening we went down to 127th Street where they had a furnished room near Lexington Avenue. We went in there and everything was news to them. I told my husband that I did not like the idea they were in my house when I was away. He had said it was just fun. He said she was just like a kid. He said "Hello Greta". That struck me again and I told him later. In Germany we don't say you right away. He said, "Nothing to it." We started to play cards in my house and we went to their house and I found out later they were nice people, and I could see she was very kiddish and always very nice to me, Mr. Hinkle was. In the summer he always went to Hunter Island. He always wanted to go there and I did not like it, always Hinkle, Hinkle; he said they are nice and we have fun. Last summer he always went on Sunday and I stayed home, and he would go in the morning many times. I thought it was just as well. Q - What change did you notice in his conduct toward you? Was he as affectionate toward you after you came back from Europe as he was before, or did you get the idea he was with Mrs. Hinkle? A - I can't say I saw something; they were just like kids. From Page 9 of the statement: Q - Did you ever have any trouble with your husband about this Hinkle woman? A - I told him I did not like the idea of him going down. Q - You knew he was going out with Mrs. Hinkle? A - No, I don't believe that. Q - Did you ever know his car was down in front of her house two or three mornings a week? A - That I don't know. Q - Did he have any business down there at that time in the morning - several mornings a week? A - No. I think Anna's instincts were telling her one thing about Richard and Gerta but Richard had told her Gerta was just like a kid and there was nothing to it. Richard's explanation of what was going on between him and Gerta became the truth for Anna. When Anna questioned Richard about anything she would always accept what he said something was. He was the head of the house after all and so he was to be believed and supported. His truth became her truth and she would stand by that passionately. As you get into this statement, and Anna is asked about BRH having gold certificates in the house. Anna makes it clear that Richard had gold pieces in the house. That is what she saw in a box he kept in his closet. There were bills in that box also. She did not say these were gold certificates; only bills. Hauptmann was far from forth-coming with Anna. He really didn't need to be. He always had an innocent explanation for everything. She would believe what he would tell her when she did question him. It was all kid stuff between him and Gerta; all the money he had was coming from the stock market and furs, etc. He kept a lot hidden from his wife. Why do you think he would ever admit to Anna that he had any part in the LKC?
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2020 9:45:50 GMT -5
this is fascinating, if true. "he was only supposed to get the money", does that mean Richard was Cemetery John? or that she knew he bought the hot ransom money? also, i'm a little skeptical of 1930's journalistic license (fake news we would call it today). newspaper writers were not above doing some pretty awful things in order to sell papers. The beauty of this board is that we get a chance to see all the different perspectives. So - we now have (at least) three possibilities to consider. 1. Anna said exactly what she meant.
2. Anna was misunderstood or taken out of context.
3. This account was invented, purposely twisted, and/or embellished. I say they all definitely should be considered because any of them could be true. It's only natural to let bias get in the way but we all have to do our best not to allow this to happen.
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Post by xjd on Apr 14, 2020 12:33:16 GMT -5
Q - Did you ever know his car was down in front of her house two or three mornings a week? A - That I don't know.
Q - Did he have any business down there at that time in the morning - several mornings a week? A - No.
this is great stuff, Amy! i wonder if the police really had any intel on Richard's car being at the Henkle place two or three mornings a week? unless they had some gossip from somewhere, i wonder if this was a ploy to turn Anna against Richard, or at least make her angry enough to say something.
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Post by Mbg on Apr 14, 2020 13:41:04 GMT -5
Q - Did you ever know his car was down in front of her house two or three mornings a week? A - That I don't know. Q - Did he have any business down there at that time in the morning - several mornings a week? A - No. this is great stuff, Amy! i wonder if the police really had any intel on Richard's car being at the Henkle place two or three mornings a week? unless they had some gossip from somewhere, i wonder if this was a ploy to turn Anna against Richard, or at least make her angry enough to say something. It probably was a ploy, but according to the Henkels' landlady, Selma Kohl, Karl Henkel was unemployed at that time and always present when Richard showed up for his morning coffee. She said they were always hanging out together.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 18:29:57 GMT -5
Q - Did you ever know his car was down in front of her house two or three mornings a week? A - That I don't know. Q - Did he have any business down there at that time in the morning - several mornings a week? A - No. this is great stuff, Amy! i wonder if the police really had any intel on Richard's car being at the Henkle place two or three mornings a week? unless they had some gossip from somewhere, i wonder if this was a ploy to turn Anna against Richard, or at least make her angry enough to say something. I have not read all the reports yet on Hauptmann so I do not know the source for how police may have gained this information. Anna is being questioned not long after Hauptmann has been arrested so the police are already aware of the possibility that Hauptmann and Gerta had been involved together. Although the timing of this line of questioning could appear to be some kind of ploy to turn Anna from supporting Richard, I do think that Anna's responses relating to this line of questioning show her to have had concern about the relationship between Richard and Gerta and she and Richard did, indeed, have discussions about it. There is a picture that Michael posted back in August of 2012 of Richard and Gerta together. It comes from the collection of Steve Romeo. I think this picture shows very well Richard's interest in Gerta and if Anna happened to be present when this was taken (which I doubt), her concerns would have been justified. I will try to see if I can link it to this discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 18:39:18 GMT -5
Here is the link to the thread where the picture of Richard and Gerta is located. Scroll about 3/4 of the way down the page. It is in Michael's post dated August 20, 2012. Someone took this picture. Could this person have been the informant to police that Richard and Gerta were more than just friends?? lindberghkidnap.proboards.com/thread/780/richard-hauptmann-who?page=5
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Post by Wayne on Apr 14, 2020 22:10:58 GMT -5
Attached is the 1st page listing of items found in Hauptmann's car by the NYPD. Look at the "used" item found in #2. Attachment Deleted
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Post by Sue on Apr 14, 2020 23:36:36 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
Sorry to interrupt, but you had asked me if I had more information about Anna being suicidal.
Anna was definitely 100% devoted to Richard, whether he deserved it or not.
Her loyalty to him is very admirable.
She loved him at all times.
Here is the account from the February 4, 1936 Buffalo Evening News, page 12:
"Suicide Threatened By Mrs. Hauptmann: Bruno's Wife Avers She'll Also Kill Son If Spouse Dies"
NEW YORK, Feb 4.--Mrs. Anna Hauptmann, wife of Bruno Richard Hauptmann, told Gov. Harold G. Hoffman of New Jersey that she would kill herself and her little son, Manfred, if the governor did not save her husband from the electric chair, it was learned today.
The threat was made at a secret conference in a Trenton, N.J. hotel room Jan. 16, between Mrs. Hauptmann and Gov. Hoffman.
A few hours later, the governor signed a reprieve for the condemned kidnap-murder of the Lindbergh baby.
According to an unimpeachable source close to Gov. Hoffman, it was learned that during the conference Mrs. Hauptmann declared:
"If Richard dies in the electric chair, my baby and I will follow him, I will kill myself and my Manfred if you kill Richard."
Gov. Hoffman then declared:
"But Mrs. Hauptmann, aren't you planning to return to Germany to be with your people?
Mrs. Hauptmann answered:
"No. If Richard dies, we would have nothing to live for--neither I nor Manfred--and we would not live."
Several times during the one-hour conference she repeated her intention of committing suicide if Hauptmann were not saved from electrocution, it was said.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 7:33:16 GMT -5
Here is page 2 of Selma Kohl's statement of December 12, 1934. She talks about the relationship between Hauptmann and Gerta. She says the two of them went out in Hauptmann's car quite often. This goes along nicely with the page Wayne posted earlier about things found in Hauptmann's car. Hauptmann obviously used his car for more than just transportation! imgur.com/7x3Jptx
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 15, 2020 9:16:48 GMT -5
One factor is obvious about Jeanette Smits' article linked to at the beginning of this thread:
Smits has absolutely no doubts about Bruno Hauptmann's complete guilt as charged in the Lindbergh case. She swallowed the Wilentz presentation hook, line, and sinker, and unhesitatingly called BRH a "murderer." This, despite so many questions that were raised by some in the media even as early as the time of Smits' article.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 15, 2020 9:23:59 GMT -5
Attached is the 1st page listing of items found in Hauptmann's car by the NYPD. Look at the "used" item found in #2. Not sure of the vocabulary commonly used in 1934, but I'm guessing that you are thinking that a "rubber protector" would be a condom?
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2020 11:02:08 GMT -5
Here is page 2 of Selma Kohl's statement of December 12, 1934. She talks about the relationship between Hauptmann and Gerta. She says the two of them went out in Hauptmann's car quite often. This goes along nicely with the page Wayne posted earlier about things found in Hauptmann's car. Hauptmann obviously used his car for more than just transportation! imgur.com/7x3JptxThe Prosecution got an anonymous letter that claimed Margaret Helfert told people about a "romance" between Hauptmann and Mrs. Henkel but when police interviewed her she claimed to know nothing about it. When it comes to this sort of allegation anything short of an admission is hard to prove. I do think Wayne's post shows something happened in his car which doesn't seem to be attached to Anna. In this regard take a step back for a second. This is the guy who single-handedly pulled off the kidnapping? Who planned and executed a successful ransom drop all by himself? Who successfully laundered ransom money for two and a half years with the entire country looking for him - as a Lone-Wolf? And yet, he didn't even have the common sense to discard something like this so his wife wouldn't find it? For me that's what's most important here. But getting back to a possible affair. We get our first glimpse of what he might be capable of concerning Mrs. Aldinger. Obviously before he met Anna, but remember that old man Aldinger said Hauptmann was responsible for breaking up his marriage (draw your own conclusions here). I also don't think Mrs. Henkel should be our only suspect. And in fact, he could have been managing many truth be told. First thing that comes to mind was going to Casper Goetz's house and asking his wife to go to the beer garden with him (see below). If he's bold enough to do something like this (remember this is the early 1930s) then he's not just doing it in this one instance but probably approaching many women similarly. And of course I've always had my suspicions concerning Anita Lutzenberg too. So my choice is "all of the above" if one was to ask my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 21:33:38 GMT -5
We get our first glimpse of what he might be capable of concerning Mrs. Aldinger. Obviously before he met Anna, but remember that old man Aldinger said Hauptmann was responsible for breaking up his marriage (draw your own conclusions here). I also don't think Mrs. Henkel should be our only suspect. And in fact, he could have been managing many truth be told. First thing that comes to mind was going to Casper Goetz's house and asking his wife to go to the beer garden with him (see below). If he's bold enough to do something like this (remember this is the early 1930s) then he's not just doing it in this one instance but probably approaching many women similarly. And of course I've always had my suspicions concerning Anita Lutzenberg too. So my choice is "all of the above" if one was to ask my opinion. I do think Hauptmann had an affair with Lena Aldinger and that is the reason the marriage broke up. Lena left her husband, got her own place and very soon after she did Hauptmann moved in with her! Thanks for the report on Casper Goetz. I had no idea he had asked a married woman in his own neighborhood to go out with him. Stuff like this gets into the neighborhood gossip vine very quickly. Anna could have heard about this so easily. What a selfish, disrespectful man Hauptmann was. The clip you posted about Anita Lutzenberg was interesting. I had seen her in pictures with Hauptmann and others but was not sure there was anything there. In that clip, though, she is asking for Hauptmann so she probably was involved with him also. I think you are right about "all the above" being involved with Hauptmann. I am sure there are probably others we will never know about. Sadly, that is what people did believe then and many still do to this day.
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Post by Joe on Apr 17, 2020 9:40:11 GMT -5
Richard seems to have had a bit of a Tiger Woods complex, when it came to the ladies. I'd venture his personal feelings of being privileged to carry on as he did, seriously ramped up after April 1932, when he obviously had the financial means and desire to live a more leisurely life. His previous experiences with Lena Aldinger were no doubt fresh in his mind.
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Post by Sue on Apr 17, 2020 18:29:17 GMT -5
Wayne,
Anna was a martyr for her husband.
We put people down who act like martyrs, but actually there is something endearing about them.
In the end he needed Anna, and that's when she played her best role.
Hauptmann may have had Anita and Gerta, but Anna got even by outliving him by 60 years.
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Post by Michael on Apr 18, 2020 9:05:46 GMT -5
Richard seems to have had a bit of a Tiger Woods complex, when it came to the ladies. For those who might not know what this means: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tiger%20Woods%20ComplexNeedless to say - I do not agree. I think Hauptmann's actions reflect something about his true nature. People don't simply wake up one day and start knocking on married women's doors like this. It's crazy stupid if you ask me and he's lucky Goetz didn't go to his apartment to confront him about it. Also consider that he was friends with Karl Henkel. On the other side of things, he knew how to listen and followed instructions. A perfect example is what I wrote in V3 on page 588. According to Deputy Warden Selby ... Hauptmann was " a good prisoner." He understands the prison rules and he's obeying them. He's a typical German soldier.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 19:48:13 GMT -5
I think Hauptmann's actions reflect something about his true nature. People don't simply wake up one day and start knocking on married women's doors like this. I agree, Michael. Hauptmann was running with other women before he ever had any ransom money. I believe you mentioned this in the past but I thought I would put this quote from a police report written November 10, 1934 by Det. Joseph Meade of the NJSP to show this type of activity by Hauptmann defines much about the man he has always been when it comes to women. Meade, along with Det. Wallace was interviewing Mr. Daniel Mullins, an elevator operator who worked in a building where Anna Hauptmann had been employed before she married Hauptmann. Mullins said the following: When the wife's away the husband will play! This is classic Hauptmann.
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Post by Michael on Apr 23, 2020 10:44:39 GMT -5
I got this picture from the NJSP Archives. Unfortunately, I don't know who the woman on the left is. Anyone know?
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