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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 14:25:35 GMT -5
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2020 18:54:47 GMT -5
Good find Amy. Looks very much like negatives from part of Stanley Keith’s report. Here is a sheet from the files with his handwriting on it: imgur.com/SD495HYWhat most don’t know is the chain of custody on some of the ladder nails was broken so his report really isn’t what some make it out to be. They sent him looking for some dude the NJSP gave two of the ladder nails to back in 1932. At first they couldn’t even find him then they caught up to him in Keyport, New Jersey where he was running a restaurant. Trooper Wolf drove to his home on December 20, 1934 and took his word that the nails he handed over had originally come from the ladder. Once Keith was finished with his report he wanted to return the nails to Koehler to be used in the reassembly of the ladder but learned Koehler had used “old nails” to do that. So the ladder was entered as an exhibit with random nails unrelated to this case. This is what I know was going on. It leaves the door open for so much more that we do not know.
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Post by Michael on Mar 25, 2020 19:10:36 GMT -5
I just double checked Keith’s final report and it’s dated 12/19 so unless it’s backdated, he may not have used these two nails in his report. IDK, the whole thing seems sketchy. Especially since Koehler reassembled the ladder with random old nails and did not wait for the “original” ones - if that’s what they actually were.
On the price.... I’d be shocked if there was even a bid of $100. I understand why they think they have something valuable but most of us who are interested would never pay that amount.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 7:45:53 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this early report done by Stanley Keith. He testified at the Hauptmann trial on January 18, 1935. In that testimony he claims he had possession of the nails from October 19 (1934) and returned them January 15 (1935). So he had them up until he was due to testify. According to that report you posted, on October 19, Keith received 12 nails from the barrel, lot of 22. This barrel would be the one found in Hauptmann's garage, correct? He then writes he received 4 nails from the ladder. All these nails were received by him at the NJSP headquarters I assume. I can appreciate your post on the difficulty showing the chain of custody on the ladder nails. Just seeing this one report by Keith makes that clear. The amount of ladder nails alone that are not in the ladder is shocking. By the time that ladder made it into the courtroom, there is no way to be sure that the nails in that ladder at that time are original to the ladder itself. I also don't understand why Keith had to be involved with so many nails? He is a metallurgist. How many nails does it really take to verify the barrel nails and the ladder nails are the same?? Keith also talks about nails from the house, nails from overalls in suitcase ( ) and nails from Detective Bornmann's "collection". Thats really interesting. He apparently carries around his own supply. How can any of this evidence be trusted?
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Post by Wayne on Mar 26, 2020 8:55:24 GMT -5
Hi Amy, In case you don't have it, Michael posted a 1935 article on Stanley Keith's findings on the nail evidence entitled Identification of Lindbergh Ladder Nails - www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/iron.pdf
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Post by Michael on Mar 26, 2020 10:22:00 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this early report done by Stanley Keith. He testified at the Hauptmann trial on January 18, 1935. In that testimony he claims he had possession of the nails from October 19 (1934) and returned them January 15 (1935). So he had them up until he was due to testify. I have a receipt from Koehler acknowledging he received the nails from Keith " classified by him [Keith]" on January 5, 1935 which totaled 41 nails. According to that report you posted, on October 19, Keith received 12 nails from the barrel, lot of 22. This barrel would be the one found in Hauptmann's garage, correct? He then writes he received 4 nails from the ladder. All these nails were received by him at the NJSP headquarters I assume. I was originally going to include Keith in V3 but decided it was a lot of work on a subject many might not care about. I'm not quite sure whether leaving it out was a mistake or not. If I use Joe's eyes as a measuring stick I think it might have been a good choice. I dunno. But based upon my posts last night I was going back through my Keith folder and I have an awful lot of stuff on this (some not from the NJSP Archives) so it might be safe to say that if I don't do it then the odds are that no one ever will. I hope I'm wrong about that but I consider all of the books written over the years and compare them to the information I've uncovered and think the odds are probably high against it. Police wanted Keith to have all of the ladder nails. Those two I mentioned earlier seemed important to them in this regard. Why they ever allowed the nails to float around out of their custody like this shows how "messy" the whole situation actually was. Like I wrote, this opens the door to all kinds of other possibilities, not only as it relates to this evidence, but to everything else. Nick Blasius (NJSP Clerk) gave Keith nails on October 19, 1934. Were they in his custody the entire time or did the cops run around NJ collecting them from other random people who had them? Then there's another receipt signed by Keith on December 3, 1934 for even more nails from the ladder. These nails definitely weren't in Blasius's possession on October 19th. I know this for a fact because there is a chain of custody receipt signed by Blasius which shows that Keaten handed him those nails on November 28, 1934. The Keg of nails from Hauptmann's garage was given to Keith by Blasius on October 30, 1934 according to the receipt. I personally feel more comfortable with this evidence than I do about the ladder nails. I can appreciate your post on the difficulty showing the chain of custody on the ladder nails. Just seeing this one report by Keith makes that clear. The amount of ladder nails alone that are not in the ladder is shocking. By the time that ladder made it into the courtroom, there is no way to be sure that the nails in that ladder at that time are original to the ladder itself. I know for an absolute fact Koehler reassembled the ladder without using the original nails. Keith said Koehler had informed him of this and made the point, I think, because the NJSP were trying to get the nails back for this purpose. One might argue that since there's evidence Keith turned over the nails to Koehler on the next day, he "may" have disassembled then reassembled it with the real ones. I'd have to once again read through every page of the trial transcripts to see what Koehler might have testified to, however, since he wasn't above lying I don't see if a determination could be made regardless. Anyway, before I ever wrote anything on this I would consult everything to make sure of all possibilities. But I think we can see Koehler had no problem doing what he did in order to ready the ladder for trial. If that meant using miscellaneous and random nails then so be it. I also don't understand why Keith had to be involved with so many nails? He is a metallurgist. How many nails does it really take to verify the barrel nails and the ladder nails are the same?? Keith also talks about nails from the house, nails from overalls in suitcase ( ) and nails from Detective Bornmann's "collection". Thats really interesting. He apparently carries around his own supply. How can any of this evidence be trusted? I personally don't have a problem with Keith having all of the real nails to make his evaluation. I think that's the right thing if such an evaluation was going to be trusted. The problem is we see the nails are all over the place, and when necessary, they are prepared to use ones that have nothing to do with the ladder. If you remember Bornmann brought nails from the attic to the Training School for Koehler to look at. Then later, they went back up there on October 9th, the date of the actual Rail 16 discovery, and he grabbed more - and I believe he grabbed more every time since. Each time they should have been bagged and tagged but we see he's keeping some (or all) for himself. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons but it shows a pattern sloppiness.
Hi Amy, In case you don't have it, Michael posted a 1935 article on Stanley Keith's findings on the nail evidence entitled Identification of Lindbergh Ladder Nails -www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/iron.pdf Honestly, that was given to me by someone (2002?) who consented that I could share it but with the stipulation that I couldn't say where I got it from (don't ask why). So I did and as you can see Ronelle gave me the credit for it and believe me when I say I didn't ask for it. Since no good deed goes unpunished this person immediately became upset about that. Anyway, it's at the Archives so I wish I had just waited to find it myself.
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Post by Michael on Apr 1, 2020 10:35:10 GMT -5
I wanted to post the source for Koehler re-assembling the ladder with "old nails" ... I know both Amy and Wayne will back me up when I say that sources like this can reveal what reports or other main sources omit. Problem is they are almost as bad as the teletypes to get through. I remember early on that I had decided I was going to sit down and only focus on them for that particular day but was burned out and mumbling to myself " this sux" before I realized I had to break the effort up into small doses per trip. Unfortunately for most researchers they don't have the time to go through these indirect materials (for lack of a better word) so this might also explain why they aren't mentioned or utilized. And it makes sense if one wants to maximize their efforts while there in a limited time-frame.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2020 19:11:13 GMT -5
Great post, Michael. So that ladder went into the court room without the original nails. Pope's arguments to keep that ladder out as evidence were solid arguments. It makes you wonder what else about that ladder might not have been original. What the heck are "old nails"? Where did they come from?
Love the phone logs!! You can find some very important bits of info in them for sure!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2020 21:56:29 GMT -5
Police wanted Keith to have all of the ladder nails. Those two I mentioned earlier seemed important to them in this regard. Why they ever allowed the nails to float around out of their custody like this shows how "messy" the whole situation actually was. Like I wrote, this opens the door to all kinds of other possibilities, not only as it relates to this evidence, but to everything else. Nick Blasius (NJSP Clerk) gave Keith nails on October 19, 1934. Were they in his custody the entire time or did the cops run around NJ collecting them from other random people who had them? Then there's another receipt signed by Keith on December 3, 1934 for even more nails from the ladder. These nails definitely weren't in Blasius's possession on October 19th. I know this for a fact because there is a chain of custody receipt signed by Blasius which shows that Keaten handed him those nails on November 28, 1934. It seems the ladder nails were going lots of places. I found this report written by Special Agent Robert W. Corey from the Pittsburgh, PA Federal Office. In December of 1932, Corey is in possession of five (5) of the ladder nails, given to him by the Washington D.C. office. I wonder if this group of 5 nails ever made it back to New Jersey. imgur.com/Lry3K0h
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Post by Michael on Apr 10, 2020 9:08:08 GMT -5
It seems the ladder nails were going lots of places. I found this report written by Special Agent Robert W. Corey from the Pittsburgh, PA Federal Office. In December of 1932, Corey is in possession of five (5) of the ladder nails, given to him by the Washington D.C. office. I wonder if this group of 5 nails ever made it back to New Jersey. imgur.com/Lry3K0hAs of March 18, 1933, they were still in the Treasury Departments hands. Special Agent Corey wrote: The five nails originally transmitted to the Pittsburgh Office by Special Agent Wilson are being retained here until further advice is received as to their disposition. Agent Corey had just finished up an investigation into the nails at the Pittsburgh Steel Company. Here the actual manufacturers of these nails said what Keith would eventually claimed to have done was not possible. That's not to say Keith lied or was wrong but its important to have this type of information to compare to his report in order to make an informed decision. And yet, Keith graces the stand in Flemington and the Defense hasn't a clue about Corey's investigation. And even some authors claiming to be experts on the case didn't know either so they weren't alone. Here is the relevant page from that report: imgur.com/rMtpqd6
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