|
Post by kathy for rick on Mar 1, 2006 15:52:58 GMT -5
rick, i remember reading that uhlig was somewhat slow and i think he considered Fisch a friend but i dont think fisch really had close friends, just victims. according to Dr. Gardner uhlig got to know hauptmann when helping they were helping pinkus look for Fisch's fortune (the one he told his family was in the US)
|
|
|
Post by kathy for kelcon on Mar 1, 2006 16:12:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry weve distracted you from michael's post with all this other stuff. And to have rick "deflect" your important pronouncements when we know its all about YOU you have no background in even elementary psychology and ricks right- show us the documentation re: all anything a psychiatrist stated in the 30's would be almost completely discounted today; your guy schoenfeld thought RBH was gay and schizophrenic (in those days thought to be caused by pernicious mothering) I'm not going to sugar-coat this, you are arrogant & completely delusional when it comes to this case. NO other board has anyone who I feel has been as rude! AND i dont think its just me.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 16:28:47 GMT -5
So another words you feel Richard Hauptmann was a normal , honest, hard working citizen unfairly singled out by a cruel society? This of course you can ascertain from your singular professional assessment of him. And of course you are being perfectly respectful with your charges that a father killed his own son and so many others participated in the charade of a kidnapping. Your keen insight into this case negates and supersedes all the evidence and judgment of so many. And you think that I am the one who is arrogant , rude, and delusional?
|
|
|
Post by rick for kathy on Mar 1, 2006 18:26:52 GMT -5
Hi Kathy.....well, maybe if we put 2 and 2 together we can get 5? Harry Uhlig travelled with Fisch to and from Germany. I think they even worked the fur business together. But only Fisch got TB in the freezers? then lets add in the Henkels? It just so happens that while Carl was driving truck for Knickerbocker Pie Company, Izzy and Gerta were having thier pictures taken at a partee'? So how dumb can they all be. Fisch is bleeding Gertas Mom dry for cash while Carl sees him doing nothing with a bogus Pie company going bankrupt? Dont bother bickering with Kev>Cons about yur feelin's as his number one charge is pissing everybody off so they cant see straight? Apparently he has forgotten his recent UN pledge of peace? Fisch must be the Master of Deception/ a true Kaiser Soze w/ limp? PS Fisch and Gerta are very chummy in all the photos. Who let the dogs out/ woof?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 1, 2006 20:25:04 GMT -5
Kathy,
The evidence that Hauptmann cheated on his wife are in the Police reports. He was the reason the Aldinger's marriage failed. He is seen with woman when Anna is in Germany. He is seen stopping by Gerta Henkel's when Karl was not there. He was very friendly with Anita Luxenberg. He was stopping by neighbors asking their wives to the beer garden while their husbands were at work, and his car, when searched by the police, contained a used condom found under the seat.
Kevin,
I do not think its fair to equate any crime committed post-WWI Germany with Sociopathic behavior. People roll the dice all the time when it comes to money. Some people cheat on their taxes. Our prisons are full of criminals but I really hesitate to say what percentage are sociopaths....not many in my book. To me its a gamble or a risk one takes and not because someone feels the rules don't apply to them - they know they do but feel the reward is worth the risk.
The crimes in Germany were more out of need then greed.
Whatever he was doing in the U.S. however was different, and I believe he was involved in many little money making schemes before, during, and after the crime. He gave up Fisch, because he was dead, but would not give up anyone who was alive. That's a rare breed but not indicative of a sociopath in my opinion.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 21:33:06 GMT -5
Well Michael this is here you and I differ in our opinions. I do not and cannot equate cheating on your taxes with armed robbery, break & entry and theft. I think it is a great disservice to those German people , some of whom were my relatives, who amids the despair following WWI managed to go on without resorting to felonious crimes. That Hauptmann was damaged by the war and the loss of his brothers I have no doubt. It is not my place to judge him in that regard. However in the context of this case when we are discussing his actions I think it is fair to say that he was not an honest and upright citizen as has been offered up as a description. If his criminal activities, his lies. his deceit to his wife and his total lack of remorse for his part in the kidnapping do not qualify him as a sociopath then so be it. But no matter what you call him his actions cannot be dismissed so easily.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 1, 2006 22:29:17 GMT -5
I think you missed my point.
The actions in Germany were not indicative of a sociopath. People act differently under devastating circumstances. We saw it here in the United States too. In the aftermath of the hurricane in Homestead, Florida, normal everyday people were stealing to survive. No, not everyone but actions that wouldn't normally occur did as a result of the event.
So on March 20, 1919 Petzold and Hauptmann went hunting in the woods near Wiesa and Neblschutz. Why? Because they were hungry and had no money....This was a direct result of the devastation cause by WWI.
Unfortunately, they were unsuccessful so as a result of their failure to find food they decided to rob two women.
|
|
|
Post by kanneedwards on Mar 2, 2006 7:09:36 GMT -5
i think i'm gettinga little too cought up in the Lindbergh board! I don't know (and didn't know) all of that stuff about RBH which moight make Anna lool naive if not slow and stubborn. saying this i don't trust the police either. my little cousin had weed planted in his car when his dad was running for office, luckily he was smart enough to figure oout someone had been in the car before the cops stopped him. people in germany beween WW1 and 2 were sending their kids to families in holland because there wasn't food to feed them and this was during a world wide depression. anyway remember (this comingfroom a woman) woman throw themselves at men too and we all know from Ronelle's board that hauptmann was very good looking. maybe as Ana says it wasn't just Wilentz that was jealous (this is to be facetious!) i've still think the first night has so many questions that it is a good place to look!
|
|
|
Post by kanneedwards on Mar 2, 2006 7:20:24 GMT -5
Rick, sounds like Greta was very friendly with everybody. I think Hauptman's circle of friends was wide and there is possibility that someone knew of Condon. the more his behavior and statements (lies) are examined here the more i am suspious of his involvement. if Condon made a second profession of writing to newspapers and these people were attempting to learn english it seems someone probably did recognize his name. however if he was using pseudonyms how did the caller that talked to condon's wife know that "does he sometimes writhe for to the newspaper?"'
|
|
|
Post by rick for kathy on Mar 2, 2006 8:21:12 GMT -5
Excellent sleuthing kathy. Yes, i forgot that he was now going by the nom de plume "JFC" conferred by Mary Cerrita at the seance? I think the merry band from the Temple of Divine Power was calling Condon to see if he was JFC! Such a coincidence! Obviously, JFCs phone number was not in the book! (But it was in BRHs closet) For a while I thought that Fisch was THE central figure in the LKC, but Condon cant be far behind since he too knows most of the players--including Fisch who knows BRH. Their roles overlap like the Vesica Pisces circles? Maybe both BRH and Fisch saw themselves as playboy types attractive to women? It has crossed my mind that Mary Cerrita selected the Vesica as the ransom symbol to show a connection, of sorts, between herself Mary (Magdalene) and Fisch (Pisces)? Now Im getting all romantic like Dr. Dudley Doright with all these engagements. Carl Henkel looks cuckolded in all the photos?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 2, 2006 8:57:42 GMT -5
Michael, I don't think I missed your point. I am only saying that Hauptmann is no choir boy and that a pattern of criminal and deceitful behavior, no matter what you choose to call it, exists. Since this board allows so much leeway with posting I would also add that we only know of the crimes for which Hauptmann was caught. Who knows what other endeavors he had been involved with? As you said yourself, he was a guy after a quick buck. Prisons are filled with people who have adhered to that philosophy.
|
|
|
Post by rick on Mar 2, 2006 10:23:55 GMT -5
The dimensions of the wooden box pictured in Libery Magazine Feb 1st 1932 page 32, are interesting. The legend reads "the box for the ransom money was exactly like this duplicate made by the same cabinetmaker". Should we assume this was Abraham Samuelson? The outside dimensions are 5 1/2 inches by 6 3/4 inches by 14 inches. So...actually its a bit smaller "inside" than requested thus making it impossible for the money to fit. Now....how could anyone estimate the exact size of the ransom if not a banker or money lender? Good thing Condon didnt try to throw the box over the fence, he might have hurt someone? Michael, can you tell us who saw someone return for the wooden box? Im curious.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 2, 2006 11:58:09 GMT -5
"Now....how could anyone estimate the exact size of the ransom if not a banker or money lender?"
Well I did, Joe did and I am sure others have as well. It really isn't all that difficult. The problem. and I think Lindbergh and Condon found this out, is that currency tends to bulk up to varying degrees depending on the condition of the bills and the wrapping used. So while theoretically that box would hold about 6000 bills, in reality it could barely fit the 5150 bills comprising the $70k. So in reality I think a banker or someone more familiar with handling large amounts of currency would have known to specify a larger "packet".
How did you arrive at those dimensions from the magazine photo?
I am also very interested in the story about the fate of the box.
|
|
|
Post by rick on Mar 2, 2006 17:08:42 GMT -5
kevin--When i looked at the article again last evening to make measurements for you--I was amazed to see a 15" ruler in the photo!! The outside measurements of the length was 14"/ the other two come up slightly shorter than predicted? Please recall that Condon claims he made an exact replicate of a 1830s ballot box displayed in his study. Wow.
Michael knows all about the wooden box in the bushes story. I am betting it was John "jafsie" Condon that returned for the box? Winging that box around St. Raymonds might have got jafsie shot? Also, it was Gaston Means that first heard that the ransom was thrown over a fence? how about that? Maybe a little birdy told him?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on Mar 2, 2006 17:19:39 GMT -5
Yes, I know Michael has been busy, but I would like to know more about the box in the bushes as I have never been told the full story there. The thing about Condon and the box that I find ridiculous is his claim to have had his son in law, an architect, make a drawing of it. How complicated is this box anyway?
|
|
|
Post by Michael on Mar 3, 2006 6:45:23 GMT -5
I will try to put something together tonight or over the weekend about this. Pay careful attention to Lindbergh/Condon's versions of events this night when considering what Uebel saw.
|
|
|
Post by rick for michael on Mar 5, 2006 9:21:24 GMT -5
Michael...who was Uebel? The weekend starts now/
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 2, 2006 20:49:47 GMT -5
KAMENZ
The colors of the coat of arms are those of the Upper Lusatia. The black wing on the right side is the symbol of the Lords of Kamenz. The linden leaf in the top if the left half stands for the Sorbs minority. The wavy line below symbolizes the three rivers Roeder, Elster and Spree. The three rings in the bottom symbolize the unification of the three previous districts, the symbol was taken from the play "Nathan der Weise" by Lessing
|
|
|
Post by rick3 trooper 2 on May 3, 2006 11:41:33 GMT -5
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 3, 2006 13:03:42 GMT -5
Nein!
[ftp]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamenz_(district)[/ftp]
|
|
|
Post by rick3 on May 8, 2006 4:45:47 GMT -5
Is there any way to connect the nursery note singnature to rumrunners or bootleggers? Its far easier to connect the complex symbol to 1) a fraternity logo at Amherst College via Norris--think Skull and Bones! The vesica piscis was known to connect to the Ark of the Covenant rituals; and 2) Freemasonry. A fe3w weeks back Michael made passing mention of Codes in the Notes. Some think that rumrunners and bootleggers would use "coded messages" to run the business. but how this fits with the ransom notes and 236 E. 30th street excapes me? Mother.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 8, 2006 9:29:28 GMT -5
Rick, if you are serious about the possibility of a coded message then I think you have to look at exactly why codes are employed and how. I can't see a reasonable use of a code in the ransom notes for several reasons. One, who has a need to communicate a secret message via the notes and to whom? Why would one use the notes which are relatively short and more importantly under extreme scrutiny when the more usual route of common publications is available? How would the cipher be transmitted and updated? In short all codes are vulnerable to decipher, so it is always prudent and sop to place them within innocuous transports. Also since there is an implication of an organization at work here, why violate a cardinal rule by arranging meetings when the code and a dead drop is the obvious choice. Even if you believe the old coot Condon is involved, those cemetery meetings were an unnecessary risk and one no agent in his right mind would attempt. Let the notes and code do the walking for you.
|
|
|
Post by Michael on May 8, 2006 16:51:42 GMT -5
I think if the code is meant for an "inside" contact then its the best method to employ - if of course the only one who can decipher it is the intended recipient. Those on the "inside" could hardly talk "freely" with others outside of being discovered. The code itself may just consist on one or two words which would be an important communication....not necessarily as elaborate as my Archived post. I am not sure I agree with the "cardinal rule" statement since Italian Gangs did meet in Cemeteries and train station platforms to discuss private business. If you think about it, they were able to do just that and to this day we are at Jafsie's mercy concerning the whats, whos, whys, and where from both meetings. Additionally, I found something rather interesting recently. A former student of Condon's stopped in to see him several times after the kidnapping. He told Police that Condon told him: ...he thought the crime might have been committed by a gang of bootleggers and that he was going to check on them. It's ashame the report doesn't give us a time-frame on this comment because I really would like to know if he is referring to this because of Curtis or the Boad Nelly note. We must remember how he stressed that CJ said Lindbergh was dealing with the wrong party down "soud."
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 8, 2006 20:16:12 GMT -5
.
Don't you think this is quite a`different situation?
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on May 9, 2006 10:42:44 GMT -5
Work is a bit consuming these days but I couldn't resist jumping into this discussion. I've previously posted on what I believe are the specific tangible elements of the symbol and how they relate to the kidnapping; the connection between Lindbergh and Hauptmann and their respective trans-Atlantic crossings; being brought together through the interlocking blue circles, by the kidnapped child who is central to the symbol and represented by the red filled circle. Even the distance between the holes seems to bear a relationship, intended or otherwise (in my mind at least!) to the years each man made his ocean crossing. Kevin recently posted information about the Coat of Arms of Kamenz. Here is an image of what I believe Kevin's referring to. I'm intrigued by the interlocking circles and the wavy line indicating water. I find it very compelling that this image, one which in all likelihood would have been remembered by Hauptmann from his earlier days in Kamenz, played a clear or even subconscious role in the conceptual design of the ransom note symbol.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 9, 2006 10:49:19 GMT -5
Good to see you back Joe, thanks for posting the picture. I agree it would probably have been a subconscious element. I also find the wing and Linden leaf to be significant.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on May 9, 2006 13:05:53 GMT -5
Kevin, what are your thoughts on these two items?
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 9, 2006 13:29:33 GMT -5
Joe, before I go any further I have to say that I am not positve that this coat of arms was around in Hauptmann's day. Not to say it wasn't or at least it's components, I just want to be above board here. The wing I think is fairly obvious in regard to the "eaglet" and CAL. Now for the leaf. Lindbergh, I don't believe has a German equivilant. But linde is german for a linden tree (die linde). Bergh could be der berg ( mountain). Put it all together and it seems pretty interesting. We have the three circles or keys. the wavy line, the linden leaf, and a wing.
|
|
Joe
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,635
|
Post by Joe on May 9, 2006 14:08:30 GMT -5
Kevin, you may well be right that the Kamenz Coat of Arms didn't exist in its entirety in Hauptmann's day. From Wikipedia, it seems to have originated from the 1994 unification of three previously separate regional districts. Perhaps though, some or all of these symbols were present in some form of a coat of arms in Hauptmann's days. I'll see what I can find out.
Very interesting, with the reference to the linden leaf in this coat of arms and Hauptmann's own mis-pronunciation of Lindbergh's name as "Lindenburgh." I wouldn't be surprised if this was a very common tree in the area where Hauptmann grew up.
The symbol for water, the wavy line is generally a universal one and I've come to believe this is presented twice vertically in the ransom note symbol in order that they are "crossed or traversed" as you go from one hole, or location, to another.
|
|
kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
|
Post by kevkon on May 9, 2006 14:24:04 GMT -5
Perhaps the play from which it is taken, "Nathan der Weise"( Nathan of the way) by Gotthold Lessing contains a key. What about it Siglinde?
|
|