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Post by rick on Feb 27, 2006 18:15:04 GMT -5
"That is a much different scenario than a signature constructed purely for it's complexity and uniqueness which may include some subconscious , though unintended, personal elements. "
kevin --if the above is Group B, then I am in Group A because by I automatically eliminate any deep dark psycho-social meaning to the Symbol or any CAL/BRH connection.
"If you are asserting that the circles represent the Vesica Pisces then you are effectively stating that there is a meaning to the signature beyond that of an authenticator. So in essence the signature has a dual purpose to identify or authenticate the actual kidnapper(s) from impostors and reveal an affinity or message"--or Authorship?
kev--the circles dont "represent", they ARE the Vesica Pisces we have been looking for 75+ years. Thats what it is, two identicle circles interlocked in exactly this fashion. Now, whether or not they are a singature for "Fisch" or Jesus Saves or the Union of God and Mary Magdalene, well thats the next step in the discovery process. There was nothing to discover up to now because all the other quesses were incorrect. In fact way far out in left field.
2. On "the other LKC website" I read today that the Mersman Table was purchased new in 1940? and thus it was not around to make the 3-holls in 1932? Yikes.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 27, 2006 20:42:29 GMT -5
As I am sure you know a Vesica is formed when the circumference of two identical circles each pass through the center of the other unlike the ransom signatures. Our signature writer, Richard Hauptmann was a very capable draftsman and I doubt would be so sloppy with his intersections. Note also that the vessal of the fish, or that which is formed by the overlap is actually less pronounced than the circles themselves. Now that probably is due to the lack of ink control resulting from the method employed. But had the Vesica Picses been the ojbective I think he would have used a different method. You also completely disregard the red circle and the two lines.
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Post by Michael on Feb 28, 2006 6:31:46 GMT -5
Kevin, I definitely agree with your observations concerning the 2 sides of the symbol interpretation. I have seen some others but from the recent discussions you seem to be right on the money.
The collateral I spoke of is not required for the final note as the deal is done. (Kevin)
***Maybe.
If you remember Condon's description of events, he doesn't seem so sure the person he is dealing with is the same guy he dealt with at Woodlawn. If this actually was the case, a note without the symbol could raise suspicions. And again, why wasn't the symbol on this note? Had it just been written? Or had the symbol-maker been taken away? Or is there a third explanation that I am omitting?
Your point about an "empty hand" is a good one. There were even rumors early on that the original "gang" may have "sold" the baby. Maybe this was the reason for the request of the sleeping suit, after all, the symbol is the proof so why the suit? Exactly what does it prove? Your observation about note #6 is a good one.
Rick's observation about the Vesica Pisces is as good as any. Rab (I think) once kicked around this same notion.
Now the issue seems to be your observation that Hauptmann, as a good draftsman, wouldn't have been that sloppy with it - if indeed it was the Vesica Pisces. Here again I wonder, if you are correct, that maybe Hauptmann isn't the guy making the symbol. I think Rab's March 7th research strongly suggested he didn't mail that note, and his sleeping suit research proved that was mailed from Stamford, Conn.
Maybe its just me, but I have serious reservations about these notes and Hauptmann. No ink or pens were found anywhere that connected him to them. Much has been reported on another board about the paper and that is all wrong and misinformation.
I have a very strong feeling there was another place this group utilized and it wasn't Hauptmann's house or garage.
I think these discussions are good because each point seems to be tested by the next one so we are hitting this on all angles. Maybe when the smoke clears and all arguments are considered we may all come to the same conclusion.
At this point my mind certainly isn't made up as I am sure you can tell - excepting the Mersman table. After watching the demonstration with the ransom notes I believe it would convince most skeptics. Believe me I was before I saw it because it never fit in with any of my theories.
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rick for kathykevin
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Post by rick for kathykevin on Feb 28, 2006 8:06:17 GMT -5
Kevin...I think your instincts about the Vesica Pisces get stronger as we discuss them. The VeeP is a key element in Sacred Geometry. It can be shown to include many facets including Jesus Christ, the Jesus fish, God, savior and saved. Elements are found in the Ark of the Covenent and thus "Raiders of the Lost Ark"? If this doesnt fit nicely into Rev. Peter Biritellas band of followers at 149 E. 127th street--then where else? BRHs crude sketches of "ladders" and "ice boxes" dont give me the sense that he is a careful draftsman? I dont have any sense of the colors but the 3 holes might be a holey Trinity of sorts? Kathy...Breckenridge reported that Rev. Biritella read from the Bible and recited the "Lords Prayer" before Mary saw Charlie near Hopewell. This pair of cons covers all the bases. No wonder Fisch found them so interesting. Maybe they all think they are on a Mission from God like the Blues Bros?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 28, 2006 8:45:53 GMT -5
Rick, I don't see why you think my instincts regarding the symbolism of the signature in regards to the vesica picses are growing stronger. I could accept that it may have been a subconscious element but I absolutely reject that it is any more than that. The main difference from our relative approaches is that you seem to start with a conclusion and work backwards where as I start at the beginning and work forward. Look at the actual process of making that signature and you will see some very interesting things. As for your dismissal of Hauptmann's drawing abilities you are dead wrong. I challange you or anyone else to make a freehand isometric drawing of the size in the ladder sketch and be within the accuracy that Hauptmann obtained. This is the work of someone trained in perspective drawing. As I say try it yourself then tell me it is crude. Sorry Rick that just doesn't fly. As for the window/icebox sketch I think there is another story to be told there.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 28, 2006 10:04:05 GMT -5
I'm much more inclined to believe the Vesica Piscis analogy is subconsciously based, as Kevin suggests, or even through a strictly rudimentary understanding of its meaning. I see nothing further in the remaining content of the ransom note symbol to suggest any religious connotation or logical extension of a VP inspired theme.
I believe there is a much more universal appreciation of the symbol of the interlocking circles. What I do see in the "singnature" is plenty of psychologically-suggestive symbolism based upon Hauptmann's own experiences and aspirations, as well as the presence of Lindbergh and his child.
As Michael also points out, Rab posted quite a bit of information relating to the possibility of a VP connection a few years back, which may unfortunately be lost on the old board. This information may also have been posted on LindyKidnap, which should make it more accessible.
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rick for kevin and joe
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Post by rick for kevin and joe on Feb 28, 2006 12:21:33 GMT -5
The Fisch Anagram
The Greek word Ichthys (ICQUS) is a pregnant anagram, containing the initials of the words "Jesus Christ, Son of God, and Savior."
I IhsouV Jesus C CristoV Christ Q Qeou God's U `UioV Son S Soter Savior
Words of the Church Father's The early Church Fathers saw the Fisch as a double symbol of the Savior and of the saved.
Clement of Alexandria, in his hymn, calls Christ the "Fischer of men that are saved, who with his sweet life catches the pure fisch out of the hostile flood in the sea of iniquity."
Tertullian, in his essay on baptism writes: "We little fisches, as Jesus Christ is our great Fisch, begin our life in the water, and can only be safe by continuing in the water ... that is if we are faithful to our baptismal covenant, and preserve the grace there received."
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 28, 2006 12:45:46 GMT -5
Rick, I am very surprised that you have not also made the correlation of the three holes with the Trinity. Really, are you implying that the signature which the writer of the notes, Richard Hauptmann (until proved otherwise) time and time again emphasis is a means of authenticating the actual kidnapper(s) from the imposters is, in fact a symbol for a quasi religious organization? Are we to believe that this group wants to announce their responsibility for the crime? For a group so inclined they have done a good job of keeping silent all of these years. You may stay with your "method" of investigation, for my part I will deal with the facts.
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Post by rick on Feb 28, 2006 13:59:14 GMT -5
Kevin...I think your instincts about the Vesica Pisces get stronger as we discuss them. The VeeP is a key element in Sacred Geometry. It can be shown to include many facets including Jesus Christ, the Jesus fish, God, savior and saved. Elements are found in the Ark of the Covenent and thus "Raiders of the Lost Ark"? If this doesnt fit nicely into Rev. Peter Biritellas band of followers at 149 E. 127th street--then where else? BRHs crude sketches of "ladders" and "ice boxes" dont give me the sense that he is a careful draugtsman? I dont have any sense of the colors but the 3 holes might be a holey Trinity of sorts?www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/vesica-pisces.htmI would assume that members of a small extortion gang would recognize this singnature? But noone else recognized it for nigh on 75 years? Clever huh?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 28, 2006 14:25:32 GMT -5
Rick, have you given any thought as to what your grandly theological interpretation of the symbol has to do with the criminal act of kidnapping, killing of a human being and the extortion of $50,000 for a corpse?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 28, 2006 15:42:33 GMT -5
Rick; "BRHs crude sketches of "ladders" and "ice boxes" dont give me the sense that he is a careful draugtsman?"
Rick, have you ever actually seen and held that notebook? I have and I can tell you as someone with over 30yrs of drawing under my belt that those quickly done sketches at such a small size are remarkably good. Once again, I would ask you to try one and see how close you can get to actual scale . It is a lot harder than it looks. As for your vescia Pisces theory I would add that if you look at all of the signatures you will find that the overlap of the circles or that which forms the vesica is always the most ill defined and inconsistent part of the signature. That hardly inspires any belief that it is the most important part of it. I have to ask why you seem so determined to make this work? We have a somewhat complex signature made up of 8 distinct "marks" and you seem to focus only on the relationship of two of them. If this signature is something other than a signature, if it has further meaning then it would follow that you must look at all 8 components as a whole as opposed to just picking those that you feel prove some point.
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Post by rick on Feb 28, 2006 18:10:35 GMT -5
Maybe we need to take another poll? Im certain Michael can tally up all the votes:
1. The Arms of Krupp 2. Ballantine Beer 3. Holy Fehm 4. Playing Card symbol (see under symbol, vesica, or singnature on Lindy Kidnap) 5. WWI gunners Target 6. Trigamba of Mafia with 3 legs 7. Secret symbol of delta pi theta at Amherst 8. Red, Betty and Violet 9. Red, Blue and Horizontal 10 Vesica Pisces (1 vote) 11. Other or not determined
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Post by kathy for joe on Feb 28, 2006 18:55:38 GMT -5
Joe,Joe,Joe, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (Freud) I don't see any psychological motive here at all. I see money.
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Post by kathy for rick on Feb 28, 2006 19:01:16 GMT -5
maybe it just symbolizes Fisch as in Isadore? Forget the religion. It had to mean something or else why not just a nonsensical word or number. I can't imagine putting alot of thought into a symbol and then using condon!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 28, 2006 19:12:10 GMT -5
Kathy, no question money was the main motivation in Hauptmann's eyes. But I see a real need on his part to identify with Lindbergh (not sexually) at a deep, almost primordial level to justify his involvement in the kidnapping of Lindbergh's son.
This is Hauptmann's signature and it emanated from something very personal. If it was straightforward, it's meaning would have probably been presented at the trial against him. Even if he had confessed his involvement, I somehow doubt he would have given up the symbol's meaning.
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Post by kathy for joe on Feb 28, 2006 20:27:09 GMT -5
Joe, what makes you think whoever did this had these deep psychodynamic motives? I just can't see that at all. theres some craziness here but its pretty straight foward to me. RBH was functioning in society at a high level. if i'd have to evaluate him like appearing in in an ER I don't see anything. please tell me what are you seeing here
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 28, 2006 21:34:37 GMT -5
Psychopath n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse.
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Post by Michael on Feb 28, 2006 22:50:05 GMT -5
I fully respect Kevin's position concerning the notebook sketches due to his back round. As some may remember, Joe and I went around and around with this. I was taking the side that a child did draw in that note-book, which is absolutely 100% positively true - but also that this child probably drew the so called "ladder" sketch as well. However, I never once thought a ruler or some other method wasn't used - as kids usually do once they discover the device.
I look at Kevin's observations in conjunction with Joe's and my mind isn't where it once was....
Now concerning the symbol - Everyone seems to be avoiding my questions - maybe they don't generate enough interest so I'll just leave them go for the moment.
In defense of Rick's position, I am leaning toward the religious aspect of the symbol. I have found what I believe is a connection but I want to hold off posting on it until I finish up looking further. It's complex and a lot of thought went into it.
I see most people do usually draw a conclusion then work their way back. I think its important to try and do as Kevin suggests and work in a reverse fashion in order to test a theory or come to one. However, I don't see concluding Hauptmann drew the symbol until proven otherwise as following this philosophy. We don't even know for sure if Hauptmann wrote those notes. Dr. Baier certainly didn't conclude this and he was the one most familiar with German handwriting and didn't utilize these "requests" like all the others do who drew the conclusion that Hauptmann wrote them.
Again, I know I said I wasn't going to bring this up - but - if others are involved - where's the proof others did not create this symbol? What links Hauptmann to this symbol - the ransom money found in his garage?
P.S.
Someone emailed me asking if the Mersman was a hoax because of proof found by the Police that is was factory new in 1940. The answer is there was no proof of this because no Police reports of any investigation exits. If someone is actually saying this then they must have a Police Report proving it. Ask for a source....
Most people who do this haven't even seen the table themselves or claim the writing was "purple or blue" or some other such nonsense (a-hem).
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Post by rick on Feb 28, 2006 22:59:29 GMT -5
Personally, I dont see BRH with any of the psycho-antisocial-pathology attributed to him above? Short of Wilintz brilliant, but sick, closing arguments, BRH seems like a normal family man with lots of close friends. He could be a secret German agent, but not any psychopath or sociopath. Therefore, he didnt draw or drauft the singnature. He may very well have written the latter ransom notes(?); but clearly not the nursery note. I see a womans hand in symbol/singnature myself. As for the group, there must be some Italians in it somewhere? Between the Italian heard on the phone, Mary and Peter the Revs, and the Italian lookouts...this may be where the gang hangs out and makes up the notes. the most psychopathic behavior i see in this case is Wilintz. Fisch comes in a close 2nd as Kaiser Soze. He would lie to his own mother, probably did. BRH seems pretty normal in this particular caste of liars and cons. its all a matter of perspective/ Beyond identifying the group, without the goods, the symbol may mean something special to the members which holds them together. If BRH was a member, he fell on his sword for them? More like a religious cult or Al Quida cell? Since they went to all the bother of making up this complex symbol--why didnt they give Charlie back for the ransom once CAL/JFC chose them to pay? Why pay them at all admitting defeat?
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rick tries 2 questions
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Post by rick tries 2 questions on Feb 28, 2006 23:22:43 GMT -5
Question 1: Why wasnt the symbol on the last note? Well, it could have been written on the spot--its short? Or do you mean.."remove the writer" or "remove the table"? Or they are not dealing w/ original CJ? Question 2: What does axeing for the sleeping suite prove? that Charlie is dead? that more time is needed? or that CAL/JFC dont believe the Holy Singnature 100%?
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Post by kathy for kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 0:59:12 GMT -5
it may just be me but i think you are condescending in many of your replies. I'm a licensed therapist and i know what a psychopath is, and by the way thats an outdated term. I dont think hauptmann was quilty so why would i assume that he has an antisocial personality disorder? I think rick is absolutely right he was just a normal guy trying to live his life. probably embarassed an ashamed of being scammed by someone he trusted. then on top of that to be arrested and tortured by the cops. i can understand anna's rag when she try to make sense out of what was being done to her family!
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Post by Michael on Mar 1, 2006 6:22:04 GMT -5
I don't think Kevin is being condescending Kathy, rather, I think its his style of debate not to sugar-coat his thoughts.
I see no evidence of Hauptmann being a "Psychopath" but I'm not sure the point was being made that he was. We have this crime and it can be assumed Hauptmann was a Principal but that's not evidence of a psychopath. We still have no idea how the child died - or who, if anyone, killed him.
We have evidence that Hauptmann was motivated with the prospects of making easy money, that he most likely cheated on his wife, and was social but kept to himself around people he didn't know. We have mixed reviews concerning his abilities as a Carpenter.
Am I missing something which I should be considering?
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Post by kathy for michael on Mar 1, 2006 7:06:09 GMT -5
Evidence and facts are not necessarily the same thing. i realize we all bring our own experiences to this crime but i feel everyone's imput is needed and i think everyone has first hand experience with contrived evidence. I don't see any evidence that Hauptman cheated on his wife or that he didn't simply hold money for Fisch. other than that what is there? i will never believe that hauptmann went up in an unfinished attic to take board that needed to be planed to create a ladder to be left behind that wouldn't even hold his weight. According to Dr. Gardner, Uhlig believed RBH left the money with RBH and he knew Fisch as well as anyone else (p.261-262)
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Post by rick on Mar 1, 2006 8:23:25 GMT -5
Michael, maybe it is condesending in and of itself to sugarcoat kevin and joes direct statements? We are here and we can read? The dictionary def. of psychopath is clearly stated. Since when does anyone care if BRH cheated on his wife? CAL leads the pack in this catagory on an International Scale. i think the issue here is "purposely clouding all facts and issues" with some knee jerk Abnormal Pshych 101 cliff notes? Deep seated jealousy this and deep seated non-gay that? Ive seldom ever heard such hogwash and hooey at best. And this from the side of the isle that always wants to stick with the facts/ "Just the facts Maam, just the facts"? Baloney We are going to have a difficult time discovering where exactly Charlie was for 72 days, how he died or who killed him if we are always deferring to BRHs psyhchy? Kathy...its my "feeling" that Uhlig could be lying like all the rest? how could he be Isador Fischs best friend and roomate and never seem to get wind of all his cons and criminal activity? The same goes for Gerta Henkel. If there was a German based spy cell in the Bronx we will have an easy time putting a border around it/ All their statements fall under "self-serving". And none of them had kids? Actually, to get back to the LKC, there were 3 other notes missing the Symbol...i) the first note recieved by Condon ii) the note recieved by Col. Breckenridge iii) directions at the Frankfurter Stand? Total = 4?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 8:24:55 GMT -5
Kathy -Rick, I really have a difficult time understanding how you fail to see any sociopathic traits in Hauptmann. Are you suggesting that armed robbery , theft, and disregard for the rules of society are normal? Do you find his total lack of remorse to be normal? Even if one were to disregard the bulk of the evidence implicating Hauptmann , you would still have to find him guilty of being an accomplice. Does he ever express any sorrow for the death of a young child and the trauma the parents went through? Does this represent normal behavior to you? And Kathy, Michael is correct I don't sugar coat my responses. But I also don't make allegations for which I am not ready to defend. I have noticed a very unsavory tactic used by some posters with allusion to eugenics in regard to Lindbergh, for example. Others make the claim that the child was deformed or handicapped without ever having to provide evidence of such.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 8:41:27 GMT -5
Sorry Michael, I got distracted by all of that previous stuff and forgot your questions. I don't rule out anything in this case so I suppose it is possible that the signature and writing are by different individuals. I do believe, as you know, that there was a third location for all of the preparations. I think solid scientific analysis of the notes and signatures could resolve many questions.
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Post by rick for joe on Mar 1, 2006 9:06:57 GMT -5
Joe...I agree with you (really)! its a very odd thing to me that the Nursery Note symbol and singnature involves anything to do with "a son" whether it be the Son of God, the Jesus Fisch, or Charlie Jr./ If this is a coincidence, well, its a fascinating one? Mother, Father, Child has meaning and The Holy Trinity (and I dont mean the ladder, the chisel and the nursery note). We may in fact be searching for an obsessive compulsive crazy person, just not BRH! Maybe related to Charlies parents???
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Post by rick for kevin on Mar 1, 2006 10:43:36 GMT -5
kevin...apparently it is equally difficult for you to realize that BRH has been executed, dug up, anal-lyzed, hung, electicuted, you name it....its olde news. hes dead. Murdered time and time again....we know that already. "Roll away the stone" Its no fun anymore.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of unanswered questions, published and unpublished, dealing with the LKC. I want to find some "new answeres", not the olde tired worn out ones that dont fit?
As for any possible deformaties...Dr. Van Ingen was quoted as follows "Charlie has a square head and rickets"? And no recent photos? Even the skeleton has a head way too big and unclosed fontanels. But that could be due to the heat? And a hole under the ear?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 1, 2006 11:59:24 GMT -5
Rick, you seem to prefer obfuscation over clarification. Once again you deflect the point of my post. Are you denying that Hauptmann was a criminal? Are we know to consider that he was unfairly convicted in Germany of the crimes he was imprisoned for? Are we to forget his lies after the arrest? I really don't understand this bias toward Hauptmann. Yes, he was executed and for many that is untenable. I respect that view and agree with it. But why must this lead one to make such slanderous claims against the victims? I really don't understand the compulsion to disregard facts and turn Hauptmann into a model citizen. There is a mystery in this case and much to still be discovered, but that in no way exonerates Hauptmann for his involvement. Once again if you or anyone else has PROOF that it is otherwise please share it with the world. We all wait.
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Post by rick on Mar 1, 2006 14:36:46 GMT -5
Heres an earlier mention of the Vesica Pisces from LindyKidnap: (message 1866)
"Jim Fisher (I think) said that the two circles resembled a WWI German gunner's target - originally two black adjacent circles with a red smaller dot within. But I have been unable to locate this anywhere. Much closer to Krupp Arms logo.<br><br>Reilly claimed that Condon had taken out a book from the NY Public Library called the Book of Signs by Koch. This wasnt true - it was a man named Condax. But equally false, since I obtained the book, and the sign is not shown there. Condax was an art lecturer at the Barnes Museum.<br><br>Technically, the sign is called a "vesica piscis". Translation on request.<br><br>Shoenfeld thought it could be two (circular) wings and the fusilage of an airplane.<br><br>The German word for "Holes" doesnt begin with an "H" - that theory is much too fanciful. If the cops really wanted to "frame" Hauptmann, sll they had to do was plant a couple of bottles of ink..." end quote
{dated Sept 2001}
IF the red ink was originally thought to represent the blood of Christ, maybe in 1932 it was destined to represent Charlies?
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