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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 12:32:31 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 4, 2020 8:59:25 GMT -5
It must be emphasized that this HBO film is fiction, based on a novel by Philip Roth titled "The Plot Against America", published in 2004. To whatever extent, if any, you may think of Lindbergh as being pro-Nazi in the years leading up to American participation in WWII, Lindbergh never expressed any interest in seeking any public elective office in the US, let alone the presidency. Since these boards are dedicated to true history, I would suggest that discussion of the HBO fictional film is not relevant here.
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 4, 2020 10:04:18 GMT -5
Agreed, but even though it’s fiction and alternate history, it still has a connection to things here. The book depicts a Lindbergh presidency that has its roots in the kidnapping: Roth has CAL Jr. taken by Nazi agents and raised in Germany as a hostage, the Nazis blackmailing Lindbergh into running for president and instituting their racial policies in the US. The story is told through the eyes of a NJ family based on Roth’s, as they watch fascism take root and the slow transformation of the US. It’s a brilliant book and this looks like a fantastic adaptation.
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Post by Guest on Feb 4, 2020 22:17:38 GMT -5
What if Lindbergh would not have wanted his child back?
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2020 9:26:44 GMT -5
What if Lindbergh would not have wanted his child back? Here's where I am getting confused. Are you asking this in the context of this show or the real situation? BTW: Here is a document, I believe, is relevant to the discussion. It's a Government Memorandum that can be found among the Truman Smith Collection (for the moment I cannot locate or remember the exact archive I got this from).
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Post by Guest on Feb 5, 2020 10:43:49 GMT -5
Naturally, with such an attitude in the fictional account, there wouldn't have been a plot. Lindbergh had to be portrayed as a desperate, loving dad. In real life it was considered a possibility -- and still seems to be. That's the impression I get on this forum.
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2020 11:11:52 GMT -5
Naturally, with such an attitude in the fictional account, there wouldn't have been a plot. Lindbergh had to be portrayed as a desperate, loving dad. In real life it was considered a possibility -- and still seems to be. That's the impression I get on this forum. Sorry about that. I haven't read the Roth book. As far as Lindbergh not wanting his child back.... It's a logical question given some of his documented actions (e.g. the constant jokes, and his actions at the morgue) and his belief in Eugenics. So if he did not want him back he was in the perfect position to steer police by either encouraging or preventing certain investigations. He certainly had veto power over any important move contemplated (e.g. lie detectors for staff, etc.) And then there was the thought of the police that things were staged, and that Lindbergh appeared to be "going through the motions" while at the same time lacking any true emotions one would indeed expect. Everyone can grieve differently of course, however, I don't expect acting perfectly normal as if nothing happened or carefree or wanting to play cards instead of searching for his son is high among those differences.
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2020 12:46:16 GMT -5
Update on the recent uploaded document. I still cannot remember which archive this came from. I have box numbers associated with the file and the date of 2003 written on my folders but nothing else. I usually corresponded with any Archivist I've dealt with but unfortunately my email only goes back to '05. I see that similar memos are authored by Dr. J. P. M. Marsalka, T. H. Tetens, Truman Smith and others. In the case of Marsalka and Tetens they didn't "work" for the U.S. Government but by attaching these items to other government documents its my belief they became part of that record. I should have this information but its obviously lost or misfiled somewhere.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 6, 2020 9:06:43 GMT -5
It would be interesting to obtain the name and government position of the individual(s) who wrote the posted memorandum, as well as the date of it. It was probably some time in 1941.
In terms of expression of alleged pro-Nazi views in the US, Lindbergh is best-known for a speech before the (isolationist) America First Committee in Des Moines, Iowa in 1941. But this is nine years after the purported kidnapping.
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Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2020 10:50:27 GMT -5
It would be interesting to obtain the name and government position of the individual(s) who wrote the posted memorandum, as well as the date of it. It was probably some time in 1941. In terms of expression of alleged pro-Nazi views in the US, Lindbergh is best-known for a speech before the (isolationist) America First Committee in Des Moines, Iowa in 1941. But this is nine years after the purported kidnapping. I believe you are correct about the date. As to the author it could have been any of the three I mentioned. Sometimes when I sleep on things information comes back to me. I woke up thinking "Albany" so I started researching the thought. There's nothing on Truman Smith there (his material is at Stanford, Yale, and the National Archives). None of these places ring a bell for me as it relates to this so I pursued the other names and found the Tetens papers at Albany University: www.worldcat.org/title/friedrich-tete-harens-tetens-papers-1925-1976/oclc/122528677Unfortunately, there's no mention of "Lindbergh" as a related topic or among the description so I find it hard to believe I would have asked for material that isn't mentioned and/or listed. How would I have known what to ask for? This is yet another case of having "too much information" to the point where certain needed references and documentation gets lost both physically and mentally. Anyway, I felt it was relevant to the discussion but now I've created more of a distraction instead.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 20:33:41 GMT -5
It would be interesting to obtain the name and government position of the individual(s) who wrote the posted memorandum, as well as the date of it. It was probably some time in 1941. I think we can eliminate Truman Smith as the creator of such a memo about Lindbergh. He did not view CAL this way. He is the one who asked CAL to go to Germany and the two men had a friendly relationship for many years. Here is a link that talks about the Truman Smith collection that is housed at the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library. hoover.archives.gov/research/collections/manuscriptfindingaids/smithWhoever wrote that memo did not even spell Lindbergh's name correctly. If the writer is attached to the government and the year is 1941, could the memo have originated out of Harold Ickes office? He was Roosevelt's Secretary of the Interior and had an intense dislike of Lindbergh. I could see him being the author of a memo like this. Here is a link to a newspaper article from the FBI File Vault on Lindbergh. The article is from July 17. 1941. It seems to fit with the contents of the document Michael posted. What do you think? imgur.com/b9Srqb8
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Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2020 21:47:39 GMT -5
Material like this could still come from his collection because sources from others came in all the time that would be submitted for consideration. I have material from the State Department too so it’s possible that’s the origin. But still, I have a nagging feeling it comes from Tetens. It’s frustrating because I should have that information in the folder.
Regardless, I have much more to show what’s written there was accepted by many at the time. Furthermore, I feel that no matter if it was 1932, 1935, 1939, or 1941 .... these were his beliefs throughout. Just look at what Mosley wrote concerning CAL’s comments about Hauptmann. Most normal people demonize their enemies. Now think about how anyone might feel in this situation. And yet, he’s speaking in terms of what I’d call near admiration. On top of that, when the child was assumed to still be alive, here’s a guy who would rather play cards, tease people, throw buckets of water on men trying to help, and turn a boat around to fetch a hat instead of looking for his son.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2020 22:15:35 GMT -5
Material like this could still come from his collection because sources from others came in all the time that would be submitted for consideration. I have material from the State Department too so it’s possible that’s the origin. But still, I have a nagging feeling it comes from Tetens. It’s frustrating because I should have that information in the folder. Regardless, I have much more to show what’s written there was accepted by many at the time. Furthermore, I feel that no matter if it was 1932, 1935, 1939, or 1941 .... these were his beliefs throughout. Just look at what Mosley wrote concerning CAL’s comments about Hauptmann. Most normal people demonize their enemies. Now think about how anyone might feel in this situation. And yet, he’s speaking in terms of what I’d call near admiration. On top of that, when the child was assumed to still be alive, here’s a guy who would rather play cards, tease people, throw buckets of water on men trying to help, and turn a boat around to fetch a hat instead of looking for his son. I think you are misunderstanding my post. I didn't say whose collection it might have come from. I was addressing who might have written the memo since that was what Hurtelable was wondering in his post. I don't think that Truman Smith would have authored the memo. Hurt mentioned 1941 and you agreed with him so I researched on that year through my Lindbergh files. Believe me, I am well aware of Lindbergh and his historical position concerning Germany. I am not suggesting otherwise with my post. I think you know as well as many others on this board what my position is regarding Lindbergh.
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Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2020 23:05:42 GMT -5
We’re on the same page Amy, I’m just thinking out loud in an attempt to add to what you wrote in your post. I wasn’t disagreeing, rather, just offering possibilities.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 7, 2020 9:20:13 GMT -5
As long as we are wandering away from the LKC to a discussion of who wrote the memorandum posted by Michael and the circumstances surrounding it, remember that Lindbergh and President F. D. Roosevelt had been feuding much earlier. As far back as 1933, Roosevelt's first year as President, Lindbergh fought strongly AGAINST Roosevelt's proposal to transfer the duty of carrying air mail from private contracted carriers to the US government. (The proposal was enacted into law by Congress, much to the delight of Roosevelt at the time, but was rescinded after only a few months because of an unacceptable number of military air mail pilot deaths primarily due to inadequate military aircraft.)
Rooselvelt was the type of authoritarian who wasn't shy about abusing the power of government against even prestigious and powerful Americans with whom he had an axe to grind. Lindbergh, for his part. had made himself more of a presidential target over the years with his seemingly tone-deaf attitude toward the growing menace of Nazi Germany and fascism in Europe. So it wouldn't be shocking if Roosevelt had formed a more or less anonymous "Lindbergh Task Force" (for lack of a better term) within his administration to keep the president aware of Lindbergh's ongoing activities. This "Lindbergh Task Force" probably involved the FBI, and perhaps military and intelligence agencies as well. The memorandum posted by Michael may have been a work product of such a task force, and was left unsigned and undated due to its secretive nature.
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Post by Michael on Feb 7, 2020 11:43:28 GMT -5
Although I don’t bring it up much, I have a good amount of material concerning Lindbergh that’s outside of the case. I keep that material separate because, as you can see, it can cause an infinite amount of research which spins out of control in a very short amount of time. Just this has occupied me ever since I posted the memo. Problem is that one might argue this IS related. Right? So if one suspects his involvement in the crime in some way then his attitude and philosophies are relevant and need to be considered.
Since I hijacked this thread with the memo, the source for it seems (to me at least) important. Amy clearly demonstrated Smith is not the author and I suspect it was Tetens. I found some more files from this same source and here is how I documented the contents on each folder (for those who care):
1. Box 80, “Lindbergh As Agent” 2. Box 84, “Lindbergh, Notes To Article” 1941 3. Box 84, “Memoranda On Lindbergh” 1941 4. Box 85, “Goebbles - Amerika First”
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2020 8:38:21 GMT -5
Lindbergh, for his part. had made himself more of a presidential target over the years with his seemingly tone-deaf attitude toward the growing menace of Nazi Germany and fascism in Europe. I agree that CAL seemed to wear blinders when it came to Germany. Do you think it had anything to do with what Lindbergh chose to focus on about Germany (example - their aviation program) while ignoring other things? I believe CAL thought that a strong Germany would prevent the spread of Russian domination of Europe. Please don't take this comment as any endorsement or defense of CAL.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2020 8:47:05 GMT -5
Could you explain who T.H. Tetens was. I know he wrote a number of books on the menace of Nazism and where he felt the "New Germany" was headed. I have not, so far, found anything written by Tetens about Charles A. Lindbergh. I know that Liberty Magazine took a decisive stand against Lindbergh in its October 18, 1941 magazine issue, calling Lindbergh "The Most Dangerous Man In America".
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Post by wolfman666 on Feb 8, 2020 9:58:43 GMT -5
years ago a jewish society sent me alot of articles written through the years against lindbergh. its interesting
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Post by Michael on Feb 8, 2020 10:50:58 GMT -5
Could you explain who T.H. Tetens was. I know he wrote a number of books on the menace of Nazism and where he felt the "New Germany" was headed. I have not, so far, found anything written by Tetens about Charles A. Lindbergh. I know that Liberty Magazine took a decisive stand against Lindbergh in its October 18, 1941 magazine issue, calling Lindbergh "The Most Dangerous Man In America". Don't let me fool you into thinking that I have any advanced knowledge concerning him. However, I am aware that he shared his information with the U. S. Government. Here is a link to one of his books you are referring to. Go to the last page and it will give a short bio: archive.org/details/TH_Tetens_The_New_Germany_And_The_Old_Nazis/page/n1/mode/2upI'm sure if I kept looking through my material I would find more clues but I am going to move on for now. That's a good find Amy. I have the one from June 21, 1941 about Lindbergh accepting the medal from Göring but I know I don't have that one.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 15, 2020 21:14:15 GMT -5
Could you explain who T.H. Tetens was. I know he wrote a number of books on the menace of Nazism and where he felt the "New Germany" was headed. I have not, so far, found anything written by Tetens about Charles A. Lindbergh. I know that Liberty Magazine took a decisive stand against Lindbergh in its October 18, 1941 magazine issue, calling Lindbergh "The Most Dangerous Man In America". Don't let me fool you into thinking that I have any advanced knowledge concerning him. However, I am aware that he shared his information with the U. S. Government. Here is a link to one of his books you are referring to. Go to the last page and it will give a short bio: archive.org/details/TH_Tetens_The_New_Germany_And_The_Old_Nazis/page/n1/mode/2upI'm sure if I kept looking through my material I would find more clues but I am going to move on for now. That's a good find Amy. I have the one from June 21, 1941 about Lindbergh accepting the medal from Göring but I know I don't have that one.
Yes, judging from the brief bio at the end of Tetens' book posted by Michael, Tetens would appear to be someone who could have written the pre-WWII US government summary memo on Lindbergh's alleged pro-Nazi activities. As a German intellectual anti-Nazi dissident in the very early years of the Hitler regime, Tetens was imprisoned in a concentration camp, from whence he escaped and eventually came to the uS c. 1938. But there certainly have to be others who would have had similar backgrounds and could have written tjat Lindbergh memo c. 1941. Incidentally, Lindbergh's name does NOT appear in the index of Tetens' book, which deals with ex-Nazi presence in POST-WAR West Germany and was published in 1961. Tetens' raising that subject in 1961 was counter to the general tone of American and Western media at the time. The latter largely ignored the ex-Nazis' continued presence in the Adenauer regime and viewed Adenauer with admiration. So did the American government.
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