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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2020 12:27:47 GMT -5
For those who have read V3, I am curious to hear what you make of the three connections to the Plymouth Apartments: 1. Schindler's Car ultimately parked very close to that building.
2. The phone call to a number listed to the Plymouth Apartments called by someone from a phone in the Morrow Home.
3. The J. J. Faulkner Slip with the address on it. My first impression is that someone connected to the crime was pointing authorities there on purpose. Perhaps to give them the runaround by burning up their time. Or perhaps they were trying to frame someone. The problem is the phone number was dialed from the Morrow Home. So if the purpose was for any of the two reasons I list above, this would implicate someone with access to that phone. Another problem with #2 is that police abandoned the Brooklyn Salesman who was obviously the actual man in that listing, getting side-tracked and distracted with the one from Hackensack. Regardless, it seems like a big "catch-22" and yet, I am having a real hard time ignoring this all because we have 3 stars that are aligned here. NYC is a big place, so for me the explanation of three accidents and/or mistakes cannot be the answer. Anyone have an opinion on this they'd like to share or discuss?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 15:47:34 GMT -5
Michael,
About the phone call in your point #2. What Morrow phone line was used to make this call and is there a date for when this call was made?
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Post by Michael on Jan 23, 2020 10:33:04 GMT -5
About the phone call in your point #2. What Morrow phone line was used to make this call and is there a date for when this call was made? I've never been able to find that out the number. I even made a special trip to the Archives to go over everything again to make sure I didn't miss anything. If you refer to footnote #411 you'll see it mentions three specific numbers. Unfortunately, even that cannot be used to narrow it down because other reports refer to different numbers during this time as well. Of course I still may have missed something, you know as well as I do there could be a report in some random place that includes a sentence or so about this (although I doubt it but you never know). As far as the time goes... same thing here too. It could have been placed any time from early April 1933 thru very early September 1933. This whole episode gives us a glimpse at the NJSP's approach. They had the right idea at first but did a half-assed job. Why do you think? It wasn't until the J. J. Faulkner deposit slip surfaced that they decided they needed to revisit and do a better job. Because of that time-lapse records they needed no longer existed, and valuable evidence may have been lost.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 22:40:10 GMT -5
If you refer to footnote #411 you'll see it mentions three specific numbers. Unfortunately, even that cannot be used to narrow it down because other reports refer to different numbers during this time as well. So footnote #411 references a report by Sgt. Haussling, dated September 7, 1933. It is for three phone numbers: Englewood 3-7646 which is Arthur Springer's office phone, Englewood 3-0255 which is one of the house phones, and Englewood 3-1982 which is the other house phone. You mention that other reports were done on the Englewood numbers. What troopers did which numbers and did they result in any leads? In Chapter Four, Page 145 you introduce us to Frank Seiler. You mention that Lieut. Keaten orders Corporal Horn to investigate Frank Seiler. Whose report brought Seiler's name into the mix and what Morrow house phone was used to call the Seiler house? Is there any date attached to this call? Frank Seiler's father lived right around the corner from the house his son had lived in, Dad living on Avenue I. Did anyone follow up with this and go to John Seiler's house to talk to Frank to make sure he was actually living there in 1933? Interesting fact about Frank Seiler. His thumb was missing on his right hand. It kept him out of having to serve in WWI.
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Post by Michael on Jan 24, 2020 11:06:33 GMT -5
So footnote #411 references a report by Sgt. Haussling, dated September 7, 1933. It is for three phone numbers: Englewood 3-7646 which is Arthur Springer's office phone, Englewood 3-0255 which is one of the house phones, and Englewood 3-1982 which is the other house phone. You mention that other reports were done on the Englewood numbers. What troopers did which numbers and did they result in any leads? I wrote this because I found, as an example, a report dated 9/26/33 written by Det. Patterson. He was investigating Thomas Colwell because he was called by someone in the Morrow home from the " Chauffeur's Quarters." It doesn't list the specific number but I know from other sources the chauffeur's phone number was " Englewood 3-1981" a number which was not included in Haussling's report. But to answer your question no. Not that I could find anyway. The lead as far as I am concerned was the "Brooklyn" Seiler. In Chapter Four, Page 145 you introduce us to Frank Seiler. You mention that Lieut. Keaten orders Corporal Horn to investigate Frank Seiler. Whose report brought Seiler's name into the mix and what Morrow house phone was used to call the Seiler house? Is there any date attached to this call? Frank Seiler's father lived right around the corner from the house his son had lived in, Dad living on Avenue I. Did anyone follow up with this and go to John Seiler's house to talk to Frank to make sure he was actually living there in 1933? Great questions Amy. I wish I knew the answers to them. I looked everywhere but came up empty. Here is the report so everyone can see what I was working with: imgur.com/FRhluQtThe date is strange because its about a month before his name appeared on any phone call report. Now that doesn't mean they didn't have that information but usually reports included dates about "when" they found something like this. It's almost like there's missing reports somewhere but if they are at the Archives I haven't found them - or I missed them. Not impossible - but definitely unlikely.
Interesting fact about Frank Seiler. His thumb was missing on his right hand. It kept him out of having to serve in WWI. Funny you mentioned this... Siglinde just pointed this out to me last week. Great minds think alike! Police dropped the ball here. Not unusual but very frustrating.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 12:00:09 GMT -5
For those who have read V3, I am curious to hear what you make of the three connections to the Plymouth Apartments: My first impression is that someone connected to the crime was pointing authorities there on purpose. Perhaps to give them the runaround by burning up their time. Or perhaps they were trying to frame someone. Regardless, it seems like a big "catch-22" and yet, I am having a real hard time ignoring this all because we have 3 stars that are aligned here. NYC is a big place, so for me the explanation of three accidents and/or mistakes cannot be the answer. So if I am understanding you correctly, the three "stars" you see aligned are not accidental but purposeful and are connected to the Lindbergh kidnapping? In order to build a theory about these connections aligning, wouldn't it be necessary to start with the Schindler car and theorize that this car was actually involved with the kidnapping of Charles, Jr. otherwise what role does this car really have in this alignment you bring up? We know this stolen car was found on March 2, 1932, near, but not in front of, the Plymouth Apartments. The other points you bring up don't come up until 1933. Is this car really connected to the crime? Do any of the items found in the car reveal a connection to the crime? Would the description of the man who parked the car in front of 515 West 149th Street and then walked away a description of one of the kidnappers? I am going to post the March 14, 1932 investigation report about the Schindler car so that readers have information about this car to consider as part of this discussion. imgur.com/NuQywSK - Page One imgur.com/SXREC1u - Page Two
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Post by Michael on Jan 25, 2020 13:38:46 GMT -5
For those who have read V3, I am curious to hear what you make of the three connections to the Plymouth Apartments: My first impression is that someone connected to the crime was pointing authorities there on purpose. Perhaps to give them the runaround by burning up their time. Or perhaps they were trying to frame someone. Regardless, it seems like a big "catch-22" and yet, I am having a real hard time ignoring this all because we have 3 stars that are aligned here. NYC is a big place, so for me the explanation of three accidents and/or mistakes cannot be the answer. So if I am understanding you correctly, the three "stars" you see aligned are not accidental but purposeful and are connected to the Lindbergh kidnapping? In order to build a theory about these connections aligning, wouldn't it be necessary to start with the Schindler car and theorize that this car was actually involved with the kidnapping of Charles, Jr. otherwise what role does this car really have in this alignment you bring up? We know this stolen car was found on March 2, 1932, near, but not in front of, the Plymouth Apartments. The other points you bring up don't come up until 1933. Is this car really connected to the crime? Do any of the items found in the car reveal a connection to the crime? Would the description of the man who parked the car in front of 515 West 149th Street and then walked away a description of one of the kidnappers? I am going to post the March 14, 1932 investigation report about the Schindler car so that readers have information about this car to consider as part of this discussion. It's more of a strong suggestion. What I did during my research was work backwards, and we can see the police did this too. They correctly investigated Schindler's car right from jump-street. Once it died out, it was resurrected by the address on the Faulkner deposit slip. One thing we know for certain was this slip did come from someone connected to the ransom money. So we have a "given" to work from. That slip pointed directly and specifically to the Plymouth Apartments. This reignited the Schindler investigation because of this - as it should have. Next, it was the deposit slip which alerted police to the significance of the number dialed from the Morrow home. I submit these are 3 things, when weighed together, are hard to shrug off as mere coincidence. So we begin by looking at Schindler's car. I asked myself: Could it have been a case of someone stealing it to get back to the city? Sounds possible until one considers the bogus tag stolen from Yonkers. Seems improbable that someone had stolen that tag with the intent of stealing a car in Lakewood if for that purpose. And then to ditch it the day after the kidnapping damn near in front of the Plymouth Apartments. But while this seems so obvious I cannot figure out why someone would have called a number associated with Plymouth Apartments from the Morrow Home. On top of that, Seiler obviously did not live there - so the listing was fictitious - just like it was on the deposit slip. So here is where I believe someone connected knew Seiler (or knew of Seiler) and my "guess" is that connection might be found at the Crescent Athletic Club. The problem is that, aside from the lack of investigation into the Brooklyn Seiler, I am "missing" something. It seems that it is all right there in front of us but there's something I'm not seeing in order to make sense of it all. As far as "who" drove Schindler's car there... It could have been anyone. As we've seen in this case, Perrone as an example, I don't believe there would be a shortage of people who would have driven it there, no questions asked, for a buck or two - perhaps even less. That's not to say this person "couldn't" have been connected, but there's definitely room to consider he was not. So in the end, there isn't much more I can reveal and hoping the collective brainstorming efforts here might produce something new to think about. Even if its someone saying they don't believe these things are connected or don't matter. I'd like to hear the reasons so I can take it all into consideration.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 9:58:42 GMT -5
So we begin by looking at Schindler's car. Running with your strong suggestion about the Schindler car involvement, I find the timing of the placement of the Schindler Car onto W. 149th Street curious because they chose to dump this car right in front of an apartment house at a time of day when people would be likely to notice the car and, as happened, someone actually hearing and then seeing this happen. Did they want this car discovered? Even if this car were not involved with the kidnapping, my thoughts are that someone who knew about this car and where it was found (had knowledge about the ongoing investigation) decided to use West 149th Street and the Plymouth Apartments on that deposit slip in May 1933; someone who might have known about the Faulkners or knew someone who had known the Faulkners at the time they lived there. Albin Wiegner comes to mind who was the husband of Jane Faulkner's sister, Belle. They continued to live in the Plymouth apartments after Jane Faulkner no longer resided there. Wiegner was a musician. Could he possibly have had an interest in violins? I am not suggesting these people had any involvement in the kidnapping but someone who did might have capitalized on that knowledge about the Plymouth Apartments and the Schindler car. This brings us to Frank Seiler. His Brooklyn home phone number turns up on the Morrow as a called number. We are walking blind here without knowing the date this call was made in 1933. Does the call occur before the May 1933 deposit slip or after it? Regardless, someone brought Frank Seiler's name into this investigation, someone within the Morrow home, and someone attached Frank Seiler's name to the Plymouth Apartments with that false directory entry. Frank Seiler would be looked at and then quickly dismissed by authorities. Did that missing thumb having anything to do with it? Could the fact that Frank Seiler working for his father at the Charles Finch Lumber Yard in Brooklyn be the reason his name was used by an unknown source who was working to steer the ongoing investigation of the ladder lumber away from the Bronx and into the Brooklyn area? That ladder had other wood in it besides pine. Koehler's efforts focused mostly on the pine, as we see with rails 12 and 13. I think it should be noted that some of the other wood used in the ladder had nail holes indicating that those boards had a prior use somewhere. Where did these other boards come from? Koehler had been strolling around Condon's neighborhood (in 1933) looking for old buildings that might have been the source for some of the wood. Could this be the reason an effort was made to focus the investigation towards a Brooklyn Lumber Yard and away from the Bronx? The Crescent Athletic Club of Brooklyn is an interesting link in all this. This club was founded in the later 1800's by Yale alumni who wanted to start a football team. Over time, this club would include almost every sport known to man except boxing. This club would go through several expansions during its years of existence. Some of these club changes would occur during the time that John Seiler (Frank's father) was engaged with the Charles Finch Lumber Yard. Frank worked for his father at that lumber yard. I do think it is quite feasible that lumber could have been supplied by the Finch Lumber Yard during this expansion time. Frank's attachment to this club could have come through his father's lumber yard. I am going to post a link here to the Crescent Athletic Club if anyone is interested in reading about it. www.brownstoner.com/history/past-and-present-the-crescent-athletic-club-bay-ridge/One thing I think worth mentioning here is the ransom notes. We might want to keep in mind that the first two mailed notes (to Hopewell and then Breck's office) were mailed from Brooklyn. Brooklyn figured into the mix in the beginning and then everything shifted to the Bronx and Dr. John F. Condon.
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Post by Michael on Jan 26, 2020 16:08:13 GMT -5
Even if this car were not involved with the kidnapping, my thoughts are that someone who knew about this car and where it was found (had knowledge about the ongoing investigation) decided to use West 149th Street and the Plymouth Apartments on that deposit slip in May 1933; someone who might have known about the Faulkners or knew someone who had known the Faulkners at the time they lived there. If I am understanding you correctly, your alternate scenario here seems to suggest the possibility that someone knew about the Schindler car and the police activity it generated including the suspicions surrounding it. They then used this event to come up with the address on the deposit slip as a way to misdirect it back on this car, which, if this theory is true, had nothing to do with it at all. Am I getting this right? If so - this is definitely an "outside the box" suggestion and one that is something to consider. That choice would lead police back to that car as well as one into the Faulkners. This would have the effect of causing them to burn up and waste valuable police resources on a giant black hole of dead ends. Here is something else from Siglinde. Because of the telephone listing, we were discussing whether or not there might be a "connection" between Seiler & Kretzmer somehow and in some way. She recently sent me this newspaper article: imgur.com/A1Y6tbx
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 17:06:08 GMT -5
Even if this car were not involved with the kidnapping, my thoughts are that someone who knew about this car and where it was found (had knowledge about the ongoing investigation) decided to use West 149th Street and the Plymouth Apartments on that deposit slip in May 1933; someone who might have known about the Faulkners or knew someone who had known the Faulkners at the time they lived there. If I am understanding you correctly, your alternate scenario here seems to suggest the possibility that someone knew about the Schindler car and the police activity it generated including the suspicions surrounding it. They then used this event to come up with the address on the deposit slip as a way to misdirect it back on this car, which, if this theory is true, had nothing to do with it at all. Am I getting this right? I would say that you are understanding me for the most part. However, I think whoever used the Faulkner name already knew it. They didn't just open an old telephone directory and land on the Faulkner page and decide to go with that name. They already knew it and they knew the police had investigated the Schindler car that was found on that street. So they put the two together. Well, sometimes with a little prompting, I end up outside the box. The inspiration was right in your very first opening post about this. You said: "My first impression is that someone connected to the crime was pointing authorities there on purpose. Perhaps to give them the runaround by burning up their time." This certainly resonated with me. I think it was done to mislead the investigation and protect the depositor of that money. Thanks for posting the article Siglinde shared with you. I am just beginning to go down the Payne Kretzmer rabbit hole and this will be helpful. I can see the possibility that Seiler could have become acquainted with the Kretzmers. Perhaps when Frank's marriage was taking a downward spiral he considered, at some point, moving into the Plymouth Apartment building and so that information was given to the directory service people by one of the Kretzmers?? Just a thought. This still does not explain that phone call made to Frank's Brooklyn home from one of the Morrow house phones. I still need to think on this!
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Post by Michael on Jan 26, 2020 17:47:14 GMT -5
I was thinking maybe someone knew of both ... not necessarily that Kretzmer and Seiler knew one another - although that could be too ... although it was Kretzmer who continued to say the guy didn't live there. I would expect if he was coherent enough to say that he would also remember if he knew the guy regardless. Unless of course there was something he was hiding but from everything I've read he seemed crazy but harmless - but who knows right? I keep thinking if we find the right "combination" of possibilities everything might just "snap" into place here.
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 27, 2020 10:10:17 GMT -5
As long as you are going "down the Payne Kretzmer rabbit hole", Amy, would Kretzmer have attended this Crescent Athletic Club function mentioned in the Siglinde article, even though he seemed to be demented at the time? Does anyone know the date of the Seglinde article? Would you consider all the names connected with the Crescent Athletic Club mentioned in this article as possible suspects in the LKC?
A possibly relevant fact regarding a connection from the Morrow household to the Crescent Athletic Club: Dwight Morrow was NOT a Yalie. He was an Amherst alum. Same with Dwight Morrow, Jr. But this doesn't rule out some friend or associate having a connection to the club as the possible caller to Sellers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 12:03:30 GMT -5
As long as you are going "down the Payne Kretzmer rabbit hole", Amy, would Kretzmer have attended this Crescent Athletic Club function mentioned in the Siglinde article, even though he seemed to be demented at the time? Does anyone know the date of the Seglinde article? Would you consider all the names connected with the Crescent Athletic Club mentioned in this article as possible suspects in the LKC? Whenever you begin a search on someone, you never know how difficult or complicated it will be or where it might lead so that is why I used the "rabbit hole" description. Siglinde's article appeared in the January 15, 1927 issue of the Brooklyn Life and Activities of Long Island Society Publication of the Brookly Daily Eagle. No, I would not consider all the names connected with the Crescent Athletic Club mentioned in that article as possible suspects. I have no reason to. I will certainly keep this in mind as I do my research. Thank you.
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