Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 2, 2019 10:23:58 GMT -5
In 2006, I first posted some personal thoughts about the origins of the “Boad Nelly,” ie. a potential connection between the fictitious boat named by the kidnapper in the final ransom note, and Nellie Bly, the woman journalist and adventurer.
On November 14, 1889, news reporter Nellie Bly (born Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman) began her famous world-wide journey on the Hamburg-American Company liner Augusta Victoria from the Hoboken Pier in New Jersey. At the time, many woman newspaper writers adopted pen names. In this case, Seaman’s editor chose "Nellie Bly" after the title character in the "Nelly Bly,” a popular tune written by Stephen Foster in 1850. Cochrane originally intended for her pseudonym to be spelled "Nelly Bly," as in the song, but her editor incorrectly wrote "Nellie" and this name stuck.
Over the course of her adventure, Nellie hopped from train to boat to rickshaw in order to make her necessary connections. Her ongoing travel experiences were published daily in the “New York World” and eagerly read by all. Seventy-two days after her departure, Nellie arrived home at the same Hoboken pier. She was greeted with fireworks, parades and brass bands and was catapulted into the world's spotlight, not unlike the celebrity status accorded Charles Lindbergh, following his trans-Atlantic flight.
Richard Hauptmann landed at Hoboken Pier in November of 1923, and could well have come to associate the place he landed in America with the location of Nellie’s departure and arrival. Perhaps there was some plaque of recognition that briefly described Nellie Bly's adventure, there. I really don’t know, but it seems reasonable to me that Hauptmann would ultimately have heard about her exploits afterwards and connected that same Hoboken Pier in his mind, not to mention the significance of his own personal struggle to finally reach America after three tortuous attempts.
Hauptmann was also known to enjoy playing German folk songs on his mandolin, and singing them with others in a group setting. As he adopted America as his new home, he broadened his repertoire to include many American folk tunes, and surely would have been aware of the popular compositions by Stephen Foster, of which "Nelly Bly" is a mainstay.
Nellie Bly died on January 27, 1922, and her passing was widely reported. About a year-and-a-half later, Richard Hauptmann arrived at that same Hoboken Pier as an illegal immigrant.
Elizabeth (Nellie Bly) Cochrane Seaman is buried in the Honeysuckle Plot, Range 19, Grave 212 at Woodlawn Cemetery in the Bronx, not far from where John Condon met Cemetery John for the first time on March 12, 1932.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 3, 2019 14:05:57 GMT -5
Joe, this story about how Hauptmann may have made up the name "Boad Nellie" by some multifaceted connection to Nelly Bly is quite a reach. In particular, I don't see how a guy who was German-born and frequently engaged in playing music with German friends would be so immersed into American folk music as to have familiarity with Stephen Foster's "Nelly Bly." As an American growing up in the 1950s and early 1960s, I don't recall "Nelly Bly" being sung or performed in music classes. In contrast, I was very cognizant of Stephen Foster and what I considered to be his much more popular songs: "Dixie," Camptown Races," and "O Suzanna." These were sung and/or performed frequently.
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ziki
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Post by ziki on Feb 3, 2019 18:19:35 GMT -5
I know, it’s very far-fetched, but... If the "Boad Nelly" note were handed over at Woodlawn Cemetery, one might think it could be a code, indicating where to search at this cemetery (with starting point Nellie Bly grave) for something meaned to be found - another note, some proof the child is alive, and even the body…
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 4, 2019 9:56:49 GMT -5
Joe, this story about how Hauptmann may have made up the name "Boad Nellie" by some multifaceted connection to Nelly Bly is quite a reach. In particular, I don't see how a guy who was German-born and frequently engaged in playing music with German friends would be so immersed into American folk music as to have familiarity with Stephen Foster's "Nelly Bly." As an American growing up in the 1950s and early 1960s, I don't recall "Nelly Bly" being sung or performed in music classes. In contrast, I was very cognizant of Stephen Foster and what I considered to be his much more popular songs: "Dixie," Camptown Races," and "O Suzanna." These were sung and/or performed frequently. Just some food for thought here, Hurt. For all we know, "Nelly" could have been the boat Richard rode with Anna through the Coney Island Tunnel of Love about the time he proposed to her, it could have been the boat they rented on their California trip, one they saw in Florida, or maybe it was one of Richard's first name choices if he and Anna had had a girl.. it's unlikely we'll ever really know for sure. I do like some of the coincidental references though in my post relative to "Nelly Bly." By the way, we're about the same age and I can't really understand how anything we might remember about Stephen Foster tunes while growing up, would have any bearing on the personal experiences of Richard Hauptmann following his exodus from Germany. In 1920's and 30's America, "Nelly Bly" was a popular folk song.
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 4, 2019 15:55:33 GMT -5
Joe, this story about how Hauptmann may have made up the name "Boad Nellie" by some multifaceted connection to Nelly Bly is quite a reach. In particular, I don't see how a guy who was German-born and frequently engaged in playing music with German friends would be so immersed into American folk music as to have familiarity with Stephen Foster's "Nelly Bly." As an American growing up in the 1950s and early 1960s, I don't recall "Nelly Bly" being sung or performed in music classes. In contrast, I was very cognizant of Stephen Foster and what I considered to be his much more popular songs: "Dixie," Camptown Races," and "O Suzanna." These were sung and/or performed frequently. Just some food for thought here, Hurt. For all we know, "Nelly" could have been the boat Richard rode with Anna through the Coney Island Tunnel of Love about the time he proposed to her, it could have been the boat they rented on their California trip, one they saw in Florida, or maybe it was one of Richard's first name choices if he and Anna had had a girl.. it's unlikely we'll ever really know for sure. I do like some of the coincidental references though in my post relative to "Nelly Bly." By the way, we're about the same age and I can't really understand how anything we might remember about Stephen Foster tunes while growing up, would have any bearing on the personal experiences of Richard Hauptmann following his exodus from Germany. In 1920's and 30's America, "Nelly Bly" was a popular folk song. Joe, I can see that our discussion about this can go on endlessly, and I'm not flat-out denying that Hauptmann may have had some strange connection to the name Nelly. But heck, I have to credit you with a fertile imagination. BTW, in Michael's V. 2, I recall some evidence that there was indeed a boat named "Nelly" somewhere off the Atlantic Coast at the time of the LKC, but it didn't match the specifications nor the location given in the last ransom note. For that matter, there is no uniform consensus that Hauptmann was the writer of that note, nor that the man who gave Condon the note (Cemetery John) was Hauptmann.
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Post by Michael on Feb 6, 2019 10:17:20 GMT -5
Joe, I can see that our discussion about this can go on endlessly, and I'm not flat-out denying that Hauptmann may have had some strange connection to the name Nelly. But heck, I have to credit you with a fertile imagination. BTW, in Michael's V. 2, I recall some evidence that there was indeed a boat named "Nelly" somewhere off the Atlantic Coast at the time of the LKC, but it didn't match the specifications nor the location given in the last ransom note. For that matter, there is no uniform consensus that Hauptmann was the writer of that note, nor that the man who gave Condon the note (Cemetery John) was Hauptmann. I still believe the "mystery" has already been solved (see pages 357-64 of TDC V2). BTW Hurt: That boat WAS where it was supposed to be on April 2nd. The only discrepancy was that it was 45 feet long instead of the 28 feet as described in the note. Of course if I am wrong then the answer is still out there somewhere and could be along the lines that Joe suggests. So while I disagree with Joe here I do like his pursuit and it gives one something (or more) to think about. Either that or you could go with the "Lone-Wolf" theory which, as I wrote in my book, would require Hauptmann to throw a dart at a map and make everything else up out of thin air which accidentally and coincidentally gets most of it right. You know ... "blind luck" ... a common theme among their ranks used to explain just about everything in order for that position to "work."
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Post by hurtelable on Feb 8, 2019 16:10:24 GMT -5
Joe, I can see that our discussion about this can go on endlessly, and I'm not flat-out denying that Hauptmann may have had some strange connection to the name Nelly. But heck, I have to credit you with a fertile imagination. BTW, in Michael's V. 2, I recall some evidence that there was indeed a boat named "Nelly" somewhere off the Atlantic Coast at the time of the LKC, but it didn't match the specifications nor the location given in the last ransom note. For that matter, there is no uniform consensus that Hauptmann was the writer of that note, nor that the man who gave Condon the note (Cemetery John) was Hauptmann. I still believe the "mystery" has already been solved (see pages 357-64 of TDC V2). BTW Hurt: That boat WAS where it was supposed to be on April 2nd. The only discrepancy was that it was 45 feet long instead of the 28 feet as described in the note. Of course if I am wrong then the answer is still out there somewhere and could be along the lines that Joe suggests. So while I disagree with Joe here I do like his pursuit and it gives one something (or more) to think about. Either that or you could go with the "Lone-Wolf" theory which, as I wrote in my book, would require Hauptmann to throw a dart at a map and make everything else up out of thin air which accidentally and coincidentally gets most of it right. You know ... "blind luck" ... a common theme among their ranks used to explain just about everything in order for that position to "work." I just reread the sections about the real boat named Nelly in V. 2 and tried to compare the locations of the Nelly on April 2, 3, and 10, 1932 with the 3 landmarks given in the "Boad Nelly" note - Horseneck Beach, "Elizabeth Island," and Gay Head. As was pointed out in the letter to authorities cited in V. 2, "Elizabeth Island" does not exist; rather, there is a long rather straight chain called the Elizabetth Islands. Horseneck Beach does exist on the Massachusetts mainland within the town of Westport, adjacent to New Bedford. Just wanted some clarification on a few points here. (1) As per the discussion in V. 2, the inclusion of these geographic reference points in the Boad Nelly note points a finger at Condon or a friend, since Condon knew people in New Bedford and environs. Quite likely an individual with a maritime background contributed his local geographical knowledge. (2) It would seem logical that the Treasury or Coast Guard agents who inspected and investigated the real Nelly would have communicated with Irey, who would probably have told Lindbergh about the findings. Was Lindbergh ever informed about the real Nelly? (3) We know that the real Nelly was inspected by government authorities on April 3 at Edgartown (Martha's Vineyard). Would the Lindbergh-Breckinridge-Irey-Condon search area of that day have included Edgartown? If so, how would they have missed the real Nelly?
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Post by Michael on Feb 9, 2019 10:02:21 GMT -5
(1) As per the discussion in V. 2, the inclusion of these geographic reference points in the Boad Nelly note points a finger at Condon or a friend, since Condon knew people in New Bedford and environs. Quite likely an individual with a maritime background contributed his local geographical knowledge. That's certainly an option right? But of course there are others to consider as well. I personally find Hauptmann isn't a very likely candidate to have come up with this scenario himeself. (2) It would seem logical that the Treasury or Coast Guard agents who inspected and investigated the real Nelly would have communicated with Irey, who would probably have told Lindbergh about the findings. Was Lindbergh ever informed about the real Nelly? There's no doubt about it being communicated to Irey. Obviously Wilson knew and he reported to Irey. Lindbergh would have become aware of it too. Exactly "when" is the only question but by the time of the Reports there's little doubt that information had already been passed on. (3) We know that the real Nelly was inspected by government authorities on March 3 at Edgartown (Martha's Vineyard). Would the Lindbergh-Breckinridge-Irey-Condon search area of that day have included Edgartown? If so, how would they have missed the real Nelly? Here's what I am comfortable in saying.... If they found it during THAT search it would have been known to us all. So for whatever reason they did not find it during their particular trip and its actual discovery was obviously unknown to them on that day. We know that Breckinridge became aware because he was asked about it during the May 1932 Grand Jury testimony. What Breck knew Lindbergh knew. Again the only question is exactly "when."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 12:00:46 GMT -5
As I revealed in my book "The Lindbergh Baby Kidnap Conspiracy" "Boad Nelly" contains within it the name of my kidnapper James Warburg's Greenwich, Conn. estate - "Byedale" - since it supposedly is where the baby is located, Warburg tells us he did it and where the home of the kidnapper is. Too much to be a coincidence as he has to Germanize boat to boad to be able to do it, and he does.
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Post by scathma on Mar 11, 2019 15:00:14 GMT -5
Why not eliminate the obligatory use of "boad" altogether and just say CALjr is on a boat called the Lady Bee if he wants to play with anagrams? Too obvious?
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luf12
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Post by luf12 on Mar 12, 2019 0:33:39 GMT -5
As I revealed in my book "The Lindbergh Baby Kidnap Conspiracy" "Boad Nelly" contains within it the name of my kidnapper James Warburg's Greenwich, Conn. estate - "Byedale" - since it supposedly is where the baby is located, Warburg tells us he did it and where the home of the kidnapper is. Too much to be a coincidence as he has to Germanize boat to boad to be able to do it, and he does. Alan, did Warburg wrote the JJ Faulkner bank slip?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 17, 2019 10:15:00 GMT -5
There are a couple of interesting questions / considerations within the Boad Nelly note and its content, and I'll theorize a bit here.
First of all, why did CJ have to go away for 13 minutes to apparently retrieve the note? From this and previous ransom note content, it would seem he had originally intended to only verbally instruct Condon about the location of the child. That is, until Condon demanded a "receipt" at their meeting. Or did CJ possibly have the note on his person, using this time out to simply observe Condon as he went back to the car to retrieve the ransom payment?
Considering the first point, if CJ did actually have to go off and prepare the note, where did he go? And how does he come up with correct spelling of the reference locations on the fly, unless he had these names burned into his memory? (Horseneck Beach, Gay Head, Elizabeth Island) My own long term understanding is that CJ was Hauptmann, and without a very solid prior reference to these locations, he clearly would have butchered the spelling of these names on his own. Which tells me.. he might well have had some very valuable and timely help with these location names.
My own belief is that CJ walked in an easterly direction through St. Raymond's back to his vehicle, which he had previously parked near or on Mayflower Ave. or Baisley Ave. Here he would have rendezvoused with the lookout, the same man observed by Lindbergh, and who had previously been walking east along E. Tremont. Back at his car, CJ would have written the Boad Nelly note with the assistance of this lookout, who was very familiar with these nautical-based locations.
Could Hans Muller have been this person, as well as the lookout?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 20:37:38 GMT -5
In 2006, I first posted some personal thoughts about the origins of the “Boad Nelly,” ie. a potential connection between the fictitious boat named by the kidnapper in the final ransom note, and Nellie Bly, the woman journalist and adventurer. Joe, I was wondering if you ever considered a Boad Nelly connection with the Nell Donnelly kidnapping which had occurred in 1931. One of the kidnappers in that case was still at large when the Lindbergh baby was kidnapped. There were reports he was on the East coast at the time Charlie was taken. Colonel Schwarzkopf received a letter about this. Page one: imgur.com/IX33UeNPage two: imgur.com/gJqBVYH
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 24, 2019 6:29:30 GMT -5
Amy, I don't know if you saw the back-and-forth posting with Allen from LindyKidnap on Ronelle's forum a few months ago, but he also places stock in the Nell Donnelley kidnapping connection, as the origin of the Boad Nelly name. Thanks for pointing out that one of her kidnappers was being sought at the time CALjr was kidnapped. Do you know if that story was being widely reported at the time? If it was, it seems reasonable that it may have provided the impetus.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2019 7:10:30 GMT -5
Amy, I don't know if you saw the back-and-forth posting with Allen from LindyKidnap on Ronelle's forum a few months ago, but he also places stock in the Nell Donnelley kidnapping connection, as the origin of the Boad Nelly name. Thanks for pointing out that one of her kidnappers was being sought at the time CALjr was kidnapped. Do you know if that story was being widely reported at the time? If it was, it seems reasonable that it may have provided the impetus. No, Joe. I have not seen that exchange on Ronelle's board. The search for Depew was publicized in March of 1932. I am posting this article about Depew. This is from a larger article that was published in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on March 24, 1932. Schwarzkopf was looking hard at Abe Wagner and Harry Fleischer at this time in the investigation. The posted article mentions information that the Kansas City investigators had that connected the Donnelly case and the Lindbergh case. Unfortunately, I don't know what that information is. I do know that Depew was apprehended in late April 1932 in South Africa, having jumped ship there. He was apparently hired on to the South African liner, City of New York, under the alias, John M. Long. Depew would be tried as a participate, along with his wife, for the kidnapping of Nell Donnelly.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 25, 2019 11:07:56 GMT -5
Thanks Amy, I wonder if the search for the "Boad Nelly" itself might have led some investigators to believe of a potential connection, which was publicized later in the ongoing manhunt for Depew.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 25, 2019 15:45:22 GMT -5
Amy, I don't know if you saw the back-and-forth posting with Allen from LindyKidnap on Ronelle's forum a few months ago, but he also places stock in the Nell Donnelley kidnapping connection, as the origin of the Boad Nelly name. Thanks for pointing out that one of her kidnappers was being sought at the time CALjr was kidnapped. Do you know if that story was being widely reported at the time? If it was, it seems reasonable that it may have provided the impetus. No, Joe. I have not seen that exchange on Ronelle's board. The search for Depew was publicized in March of 1932. I am posting this article about Depew. This is from a larger article that was published in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle on March 24, 1932. Schwarzkopf was looking hard at Abe Wagner and Harry Fleischer at this time in the investigation. The posted article mentions information that the Kansas City investigators had that connected the Donnelly case and the Lindbergh case. Unfortunately, I don't know what that information is. I do know that Depew was apprehended in late April 1932 in South Africa, having jumped ship there. He was apparently hired on to the South African liner, City of New York, under the alias, John M. Long. Depew would be tried as a participate, along with his wife, for the kidnapping of Nell Donnelly. Interesting follow-up: Depew was convicted of the kidnapping and sentenced to life imprisonment. Nelly Donnelly was abandoned by her kidnappers and lived to 102.
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Post by Joseph F. Condon on Jun 16, 2021 16:51:18 GMT -5
I have to smile every time I read posts by the super sleuth crowd who keep wanting to investigate the Lindbergh case. Just for information, they keep looking for a "Boad Nellie". Well I believe that Boad Nellie was not the name of a boat, but rather reference to a type of boat. Good luck in your quests. There are two of them in a maritime museum in New England.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 17, 2021 4:58:20 GMT -5
The German word for "boat" is "boot." There is no "d" in the word. The problem in the misspelling of the English word is not a matter of translation but of a confusion with the sound or phoneme and its alphabetic symbol. This problem, so evident in the ransom notes, is symptomatic of dyslexia. The writer of the ransom notes also has a problem with the "ie" and the "y" so the boat may well have been intended as "Nellie." The name "Nellie" was quite popular at the time. Even a stray dog who showed up at Hauptmann's trial was nicknamed "Nellie." Nellie is a nickname for "Helen" and "Ellen." It's quite likely that kidnapper chose the name because it meant something important to him and to the case itself. There may have been a Helen or an Ellen in his life or in the case. I suggest a wry sense of humor, a "gotcha" type of humor, in his personality that would also be evident in some other aspects of the case. The Elizabeth Islands is indeed a plural designation of the string of islands, each with its own individual name (about nine of them) lying off the coast of Massachusetts and not connected to Martha's Vineyard. The area between Horseneck Beach and Gay Head is quite extensive, actually. The kidnapper designated the area knowing that the search would take a very long time and be fruitless, a distraction to buy time.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 17, 2021 5:28:50 GMT -5
Interesting that "Helen" was the name of Henry Ellersen's wife.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 17, 2021 10:50:37 GMT -5
I have to smile every time I read posts by the super sleuth crowd who keep wanting to investigate the Lindbergh case. Just for information, they keep looking for a "Boad Nellie". Well I believe that Boad Nellie was not the name of a boat, but rather reference to a type of boat. Good luck in your quests. There are two of them in a maritime museum in New England. Joseph, can you please elaborate on your statement that the ransom note term "Boad Nelly" refers to a type of boat? For what it's worth and referring to my opening post within this thread, I'd still be inclined to put my money on Hauptmann in the Boad Nelly note, giving a shout out of sorts to Nellie (originally Nelly) Bly, pseudonym of the famous woman global adventurer. Born Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman, she left Hoboken pier by boat on November 14, 1889 and returned to the same pier 72 days later after circumnavigating the world. Richard Hauptmann arrived at the same Hoboken pier in 1923, and I've often wondered if there might have been some sort of plaque of recognition there recognizing her feat mounted there or became aware of it later. He also enjoyed playing German and American folk songs on his mandolin and I'm sure he would have been aware of the Stephen Foster song Nelly Bly, which was popular at the time and that was the inspiration for her pseudonym. The song of course, has nothing to do with Nellie Bly's exploits, other than its potentially-meaningful word association factor. It's interesting too that by the time of the meeting between CJ and John Condon at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, CJ's fake identity had already been self-established. He told Condon he was a sailor from "up farther than Boston" and that the baby was being held on a boat. Clearly there was an attempt to remain consistent with this form of ruse, with the baby's purported location in nautical terms, carried through to the final communication from CJ three weeks later on April 2.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 18, 2021 18:02:40 GMT -5
Here is the burial location of Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman (Nellie Bly) at Woodlawn Cemetery. Attachment Deleted
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Post by wolfman666 on Jun 22, 2021 5:49:47 GMT -5
thanks to the researcher siglande, she said sepius banks first wife is buried in st raymonds
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 22, 2021 19:19:09 GMT -5
I have to smile every time I read posts by the super sleuth crowd who keep wanting to investigate the Lindbergh case. Just for information, they keep looking for a "Boad Nellie". Well I believe that Boad Nellie was not the name of a boat, but rather reference to a type of boat. Good luck in your quests. There are two of them in a maritime museum in New England. Joseph, can you please elaborate on your statement that the ransom note term "Boad Nelly" refers to a type of boat? For what it's worth and referring to my opening post within this thread, I'd still be inclined to put my money on Hauptmann in the Boad Nelly note, giving a shout out of sorts to Nellie (originally Nelly) Bly, pseudonym of the famous woman global adventurer. Born Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman, she left Hoboken pier by boat on November 14, 1889 and returned to the same pier 72 days later after circumnavigating the world. Richard Hauptmann arrived at the same Hoboken pier in 1923, and I've often wondered if there might have been some sort of plaque of recognition there recognizing her feat mounted there or became aware of it later. He also enjoyed playing German and American folk songs on his mandolin and I'm sure he would have been aware of the Stephen Foster song Nelly Bly, which was popular at the time and that was the inspiration for her pseudonym. The song of course, has nothing to do with Nellie Bly's exploits, other than its potentially-meaningful word association factor. It's interesting too that by the time of the meeting between CJ and John Condon at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, CJ's fake identity had already been self-established. He told Condon he was a sailor from "up farther than Boston" and that the baby was being held on a boat. Clearly there was an attempt to remain consistent with this form of ruse, with the baby's purported location in nautical terms, carried through to the final communication from CJ three weeks later on April 2. Joe,as I said toward the beginning of this thread two years or so ago, Hauptmann wasn't too likely to have known who Nellie Bly was. One very important piece of information on the origin of the "Boad Nelly" name seems to be lacking in this thread up to now. As Michael points out in TDC Vol.2, there was a REAL boat named "Nellie" running through waters off the Islands off the mainland of Massachussetts, not exactly in the area where the ransom note had placed "Nelly", but not too far away either. That "Nelly" was searched by the Coast Guard off Edgartown on the day following the ransom payment, and no baby nor anything remarkable was found aboard her.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 24, 2021 10:33:45 GMT -5
Joseph, can you please elaborate on your statement that the ransom note term "Boad Nelly" refers to a type of boat? For what it's worth and referring to my opening post within this thread, I'd still be inclined to put my money on Hauptmann in the Boad Nelly note, giving a shout out of sorts to Nellie (originally Nelly) Bly, pseudonym of the famous woman global adventurer. Born Elizabeth Cochrane Seaman, she left Hoboken pier by boat on November 14, 1889 and returned to the same pier 72 days later after circumnavigating the world. Richard Hauptmann arrived at the same Hoboken pier in 1923, and I've often wondered if there might have been some sort of plaque of recognition there recognizing her feat mounted there or became aware of it later. He also enjoyed playing German and American folk songs on his mandolin and I'm sure he would have been aware of the Stephen Foster song Nelly Bly, which was popular at the time and that was the inspiration for her pseudonym. The song of course, has nothing to do with Nellie Bly's exploits, other than its potentially-meaningful word association factor. It's interesting too that by the time of the meeting between CJ and John Condon at Woodlawn Cemetery on March 12, 1932, CJ's fake identity had already been self-established. He told Condon he was a sailor from "up farther than Boston" and that the baby was being held on a boat. Clearly there was an attempt to remain consistent with this form of ruse, with the baby's purported location in nautical terms, carried through to the final communication from CJ three weeks later on April 2. Joe,as I said toward the beginning of this thread two years or so ago, Hauptmann wasn't too likely to have known who Nellie Bly was. One very important piece of information on the origin of the "Boad Nelly" name seems to be lacking in this thread up to now. As Michael points out in TDC Vol.2, there was a REAL boat named "Nellie" running through waters off the Islands off the mainland of Massachussetts, not exactly in the area where the ransom note had placed "Nelly", but not too far away either. That "Nelly" was searched by the Coast Guard off Edgartown on the day following the ransom payment, and no baby nor anything remarkable was found aboard her. Yes Hurt, I recall your post and disagree with you that Hauptmann would not have known of the song Nelly Bly by Stephen Foster, which was a popular folk tune even during the time of the kidnapping. Hauptmann enjoyed playing German folk songs on his mandolin, and also American ones as he felt it was important to acclimate himself more into American culture. I'm not claiming he would have played this song regularly but I'm sure he would have been aware of the title, and may have even associated with it, the travels of Nellie Bly who traveled by boat using the same Hoboken pier he arrived at, and is buried not far from where CJ first met Condon at Woodlawn Cemetery. In an overall sense, I believe there is much more to Richard Hauptmann than meets the eye, and that it was inherent in his nature to secretly associate personally-inspired symbols and known information. An old school chum from Kamenz, came forward after his arrest to reveal Hauptmann always had "fussy ideas", suggestive of a very alert and quirky imagination, but the nature of which at times, tended to isolate him from other children. I believe this kind of behaviour and thought process is also seen within the ransom note symbol, ie. a very personal reference to the trans-Atlantic flight of Charles Lindbergh and his own tortuous journey as a fugitive to reach America, as well as the child being central to its theme and now "shared" by them both. I've previously commented on this theory in other threads here.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 24, 2021 16:46:42 GMT -5
Was surprised to find out that the Nellie Bly in the song is NOT the famous Nellie Bly adventurer who made her renowned trip around the world in 1889. Stephen Foster wrote the song in 1850, the same year, ironically, that Ms. Seaman was born. The only connection was that when Ms. Seaman began to write professionally, well after Foster's death she chose the name of the fictional lady in Foster's song as her PEN NAME. Then it was 50+ years later - about a decade after the writer/adventurer died - that the "Boad Nelly" note in the LKC was written. So Hauptmann may have known of the author/adventurer Nellie Bly (from a monument in Hoboken?) without any knowledge of Foster's song But why would have used her PEN NAME to create the name of a bogus vessel. What would give the inspiration to use the PEN NAME as a fictional boat name? Still see this as only a slim possibility and still see only a slim possibility that Hauptmann would be listening to archtypical American folk songs. His music would be German language folk.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 25, 2021 7:09:41 GMT -5
Was surprised to find out that the Nellie Bly in the song is NOT the famous Nellie Bly adventurer who made her renowned trip around the world in 1889. Stephen Foster wrote the song in 1850, the same year, ironically, that Ms. Seaman was born. The only connection was that when Ms. Seaman began to write professionally, well after Foster's death she chose the name of the fictional lady in Foster's song as her PEN NAME. Then it was 50+ years later - about a decade after the writer/adventurer died - that the "Boad Nelly" note in the LKC was written. So Hauptmann may have known of the author/adventurer Nellie Bly (from a monument in Hoboken?) without any knowledge of Foster's song But why would have used her PEN NAME to create the name of a bogus vessel. What would give the inspiration to use the PEN NAME as a fictional boat name? Still see this as only a slim possibility and still see only a slim possibility that Hauptmann would be listening to archtypical American folk songs. His music would be German language folk. It's speculation on my part that Hauptmann through some form of association, picked that name for the "Boad Nelly," but I do feel there is much food for thought behind Nelly (Nellie) Bly as the impetus for the reasons I've suggested. Yes, Elizabeth Cochrane's Editor picked the name of the kitchen servant in the Foster song as her pseudonym, but misspelled the first name as "Nellie," and the name stuck. I believe it's far more likely though that Hauptmann established the imaginary vessel name after a girl/lady through this personal association, as opposed to consciously identifying an actual boat he knew existed. In any case, just how difficult would it have been to come up with a suitable phony name? Nancy, Barbara-Ann, Suzie, Abigail, Delilah or Molly would have been just as appropriate as Nelly. How many boats of those names would investigators have turned up in a search up and down the eastern seaboard? I'd venture quite a few. The whole maritime ruse was established from the beginning when CJ told Condon that he was a sailor "from up farther than Boston" and then went on to claim he would stand on shore and signal the correct boat fitted with white cloths, and which happened to have two innocent ladies aboard. What a load of flotsam.. and just another in a series of cruel hoaxes. Hauptmann no doubt anticipated the resultant search for such a common name would likely have been delayed by numerous time-consuming and fruitless vessel boardings and investigations.
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Post by Michael on Jun 25, 2021 12:17:26 GMT -5
I believe it's far more likely though that Hauptmann established the imaginary vessel name after a girl/lady through this personal association, as opposed to consciously identifying an actual boat he knew existed. Just a quick comment to say that I do not believe someone attempting to collect 70K was sidetracked by reading tombstones instead. Next, this was NOT an imaginary vessel. A " Boat" named " Nellie" was in the exact area described by the "Boad Nelly" note on April 2 around 4PM which was prior to the ransom drop drop ruse at St. Raymond's Cemetery (see V2 page 368). If anyone believes this was a "coincidence" I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Joe - are you interested?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jun 25, 2021 13:14:15 GMT -5
I believe it's far more likely though that Hauptmann established the imaginary vessel name after a girl/lady through this personal association, as opposed to consciously identifying an actual boat he knew existed. Just a quick comment to say that I do not believe someone attempting to collect 70K was sidetracked by reading tombstones instead. Next, this was NOT an imaginary vessel. A " Boat" named " Nellie" was in the exact area described by the "Boad Nelly" note on April 2 around 4PM which was prior to the ransom drop drop ruse at St. Raymond's Cemetery (see V2 page 368). If anyone believes this was a "coincidence" I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Joe - are you interested? You've misrepresented what I actually said in previous posts by using a simple one line debate tactic. I'd call that a semi-shrug, Michael. How many other boats have you confirmed were in the area? And do you believe "Nellie" would have been unusual enough a name for a boat, in this case a fishing boat or of a similar commercial type, for this not to have been a totally coincidental event? Are you concluding whoever wrote the Boad Nelly note was personally aware of an actual boat called Nellie? What would have been the purpose of providing this information through to a location note for CALjr, when there was no intention on the part of extortionist(s) to keep their end of the bargain in the first place?
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Post by Michael on Jun 25, 2021 13:45:29 GMT -5
How many other boats have you confirmed were in the area? And do you believe "Nellie" would have been unusual enough a name for a boat, in this case a fishing boat or of a similar commercial type, for this not to have been a totally coincidental event? Only one named "Nellie" in the place where the note said it would have been around the time it was probably written. Whoever wrote the note was familiar with the area and knew a boat by that name was going to be there. Of course we could go with the theory that whoever wrote it threw a dart at a map and that a boat by that name accidentally happened to be there at the time too. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact Condon was quite familiar with the area either. What did Attorney Noah Browning write? Oh, that's right, " not one in ten thousand" just to have the knowledge of that area. Never mind that a boat was there by that name. But carry on Joe! Avoid the obvious at all cost. After all, since Condon was one of those persons with said knowledge I'd expect nothing less that you'd do your best to sweep it under the rug.
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