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Post by rick3 on Jun 3, 2006 10:55:28 GMT -5
Summarizing the Abrahamsohn Affair so far:
Well, the most important point we learn or reinforce is "that Condon has known AS for many years" and that reinforces that Myra Hacker wants us all to erase that memory? Why is that? Condon is running away full speed from this story. Makes Jafsey look even more guilty?
So, to my own way of seeing it--AS story futher exonerates BRH of any guilt and further indicts The Lies of Condon. If they had put AS on the stand then maybe BRH could have defended his actions/ we wont know will we? He never had a chance. Reilly asked for the builder of the box in Court--was he asking Toungue in Cheek? As a joke/ as his name was in the NYTimes on January 14-15th to call up!@ Its all a big farce--like summer theater. Condon knows who it is!
To clarify--the actions of BRH are not that of a petty crook, a murderer or kidnapper--just a snatcher. After all he first goes to AS shop "with a date"! As a bachelor I clearly applaud that! So you all tell me how that makes BRH a killer?
As for the mystery note or sketch, well it could have been so rough that neither AS nor BRH could tell for certain that it was a ladder? And its lost forever. Maybe one of BRHs many acquaintances ask him as long as he was passing by X street would he mind droppiing off the sketch "FOR HIM"? Just doing a buddy a favor I suppose? Mr. Nice Guy?
This is further reinforced by the facts as they stand. BRH does not come back and correct the design--the two mystery men do that. Maybe one of them is Isador Fisch, but I dought even Fisch is this dumb? Then on the third trip....well the two yound men pick up the goods, "which for some reason they came to check" and now corrected pay the $9 bucks. Maybe as a bribe? Maybe as a tip? Maybe if you want the best work in towne you pay top dollar or twice what its worth?.
Now all this is just the appetizer--the Main Course is that for some bizarre and totally crazy illogical reason--John Jafsie Condon has AS make the now famous but missing ransom box. Why is that we will never know. We dont need a box, we dont even want a box, and we already have one upstairs to AND the money wont fit into it anyway. AND I also suspect that Condon claims to have made two or a copy "IS BECAUSE HE WENT AND PICKED UP THE FIRST ONE AT ST RAYMONDS"! Big huge lie #34.
So how does any of this indict/convict/burn BRH? Well it doesnt. It looks bad for anyone WHO HAS KNOWN FOR 75 YEARS THE NAME OF THE WOMAN AND THE NAME OF THE TWO YOUNG MEN! Richard even comes back to the shop in 1934 twice to buy more lumber and although AS "from his perspective" sees the kidnapper, well he doesnt really say so, and BRHs actions look innocent to me?
Now as we hear the Samuelsohn Storey today retold it appears to center on BRH--but why? I dont know. This story should rightly center on Condon and knowing him for years and years and recognizing Condon!! It should center on the complicity of the two young men that pick up the ladder, if it was a ladder or the ladder, and the identity of the woman. Why should they get off scot free. BRH sat in jail for over one year after the Trial and none tells the truth: Agent Sisk, JJ Manning, and who else?
Now we all know more about BRHs epitaph "Condon holds the keys to my cell"! Yup thats True. Condon lies/ BRH fries.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 3, 2006 11:12:11 GMT -5
Rick, your focus on the Samuelsohn/ Condon relationship may have much merit. Of course you realize that this is a knife that cuts both ways. If Samuelsohn is accusing Hauptmann while keeping silent about Condon, then your theory by necessity makes Samuelsohn an accomplice to Condon. I have severe reservations about that and am unable to make that jump.
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Post by rick3 Detective on Jun 3, 2006 14:32:03 GMT -5
But Kevin/ Abraham has never been a suspect, person of interest maybe, but not conspirator? Hes a cabinet maker and "not a musical instrument maker"?
Condon voluteers to be the gobetween and hang Charlies arms around his Moms neck/ Yea Sure--DYBT? Look Ma--no arms/
Condon negotiates, percolates, arbitrates and masticates....all for zero, nada, nothing, minus $50K. He saves up every description of CJ hoping if someone is arrested then it will fit--same as Perrone. Condon remains a total abject failure, the consumate lier and a joke.
Its not a crime to know him--but it should be/ and worth every penny he is paid. Maybe its guilt by contamination? I think AS got caught up in Wilintz meat grinder?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 3, 2006 16:22:11 GMT -5
I think you are painting in pretty broad strokes here. Personally I don't see how you can have Condon as the mastermind and keep Samuelsohn as the innocent cabinetmaker. Perhaps you can elaborate on just how this works. For anyone interested I am providing two Acme photos taken 9/29/34 of A. Koehler at Trenton with the replica ladder. In one photo the two upper sections are shown, the other shows all three. The rail wood appears to have the typical figure of Southern Yellow Pine or perhaps Douglas Fir while the rungs are some type of clear pine. Note the neat construction of this ladder and the precise mortises ( almost as if a cabinetmaker made it). These are moderate resolution photos and I have enlarged them as much as possible on my computer to examine the details. I can make out markings for the mortises and centerlines for the dowel hole on the second section. There also appears to be a signature or handwriting at the bottom of section two (rail 15) but unfortunately the resolution does not allow more detail. www.imagecabin.com/?view=114936956280043d421dc41bd0974fa107e166997awww.imagecabin.com/?view=1149369562a888a75b3563915f76db5ec3fc632a82
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Post by rick3 on Jun 3, 2006 17:55:25 GMT -5
Kevin...good job on the photos/ this shows that no replicas were built by AS until after BRh was arrested?
I not certain what it is that AS is accusing BRH of...coming into his store and ordering some lumber 3X? Thats all he knows and does not tell such "under any oath"? Where cross examination is possible. Its heresay?
Dr. Jafsie Condon is not even the mastermind of his own life--hes a professional ambulance chaser, self-promoter, publicity seeking, coverup artist. He does what hes told to do/
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Post by Michael on Jun 3, 2006 20:04:59 GMT -5
Here is a partial time-line. I know I am missing some things but to include everything could take weeks.... I will try to fill in the gaps as time goes by.....
9-8-33 Condon tells Agent Manning that dimensions and plans for the box were made by his son-in-law Hacker. These plans called for the 6 x 7 x 14 to be made from the inside. He claimed the was built "two days" after rec'ing the note and said box had a lock but it wasn't used and that he still had possession of the key. Condon also claimed the box was made with (3) pieces of wood he obtained. These pieces were: White pine, poplar, and a piece of boxwood or mahogany and that he took these pieces to be built into the box to one of his "friends" and that no one, including Lindbergh, knew who built the box. Condon claimed the $50,000 "just fit" into the box and the other $20,000 did not. Lt. Finn asked Agent Manning who built the box so it became obvious no one ever made an attempt to find out prior to his investigation. Manning and Condon then began to ride around looking for the shop of the cabinet-maker who built the box. Condon pointed out a vacant store and claimed the man who made the box "used to have a business there." Later, Condon claimed that "old man Peretty" made the box for $3.25. The purpose for the multiple types of wood was to be able to easily identify it.
9-9-33 Agent Manning was able to track down the whereabouts of Frank Peremi Jr. and learned that his father - Frank Peremi Sr.- had died.
9-12-33 After a conference with Capt. Oliver, and Lt. Keaton, it was decided that Frank Peremi Jr. would be tracked down and interviewed at a later date.
9-22-33 Agent Manning interviews Frank Peremi Jr. and learns that his father, Frank Peremi Sr. had died in 10-31. Peremi tells Manning that Condon and Reich did come into his shop "about ten days prior to payment" of the ransom and inquired if Peremi would build a box 6 x 7 x 14. Peremi agreed he would for $3.50. Condon told him it was too much money and departed. Manning notes in his report that Condon was untruthful with him.
3-6-34 Agent Seykora interviews Peremi in the presence of Condon. Condon asked Peremi what materials he used in building the box for him and Peremi told him he didn't build it because he said $3.50 was too much. Peremi suggested that maybe Samuelsohn built it, and Condon said it was possible.
3-7-34 Agent Seykora takes Condon to Samuelsohn's shop. Samuelsohn immediately identified Condon as the man he built the box for. Samuelsohn's records indicated that on 3-25-32 he built the box for $3.00. Samuelsohn claimed the box was made of maple, five ply veneer, and was put together in tongue and groove method with glue. Samuelsohn did not recall placing a lock in it. Samuelsohn then turned over a left-over sample of wood from the box, and he was requested to make a replica. According to Samuelsohn, he asks "if the government wants a criminal and a citizen knows where that criminal is and where he is does the government give the citizen protection if he tells?" He is told they don't, therefore, he doesn't mention anything about the ladder.
9-19-34 Hauptmann arrested
9-20-34 Line-Up at Greenwich Street Station. Condon declines to identify Hauptmann.
9-21-34 Condon talks with Agent Turrou and attempts to "pump" him for information. He tells Turrou his life now wasn't worth five cents and "they were going to kill him." He later tells Turrou that Hauptmann would not be identified by him because he was doubtful he was John. He said Hauptmann was much heavier, had different eyes, different hair, etc.
9-24-34 Samuelsohn tells Breslin he thinks he built the ladder and is interrogated and explains he didn't come forward sooner because he was afraid. Certain pieces ordered by Hauptmann.
9-25-34 Samuelsohn interrogated by Breslin again.
9-26-34 Samuelsohn is brought to the Training School. He identifies "some" pieces and turns over left-over pieces from the job and shows the receipt. Cpl. Leon is doubtful. Bornmann makes first attic search report without any comment of missing piece in Hauptmann's attic. Samuelsohn told to go back to Bronx and keep his mouth shut.
9-27-34 Samuelsohn questioned by Breslin, Lamb, and Appel in New York.
9-28-34 Samuelsohn's samples are examined by Koehler. Identifies them as yellow pine but says they are different then the ladder.
10-09-34 Bornmann back-dates 9-26 report to include missing piece of board on the attic floor.
10-24-34 Condon sees Hauptmann in Flemington Jail. According to Hauptmann he declares he "cannot testify against this man."
11-7-34 Cpl. Leon assigned confidential investigation by Schwarzkopf to find out if Hauptmann knew Condon and/or Reich.
12-15-34 Condon tells Reporters he does not believe Hauptmann will be convicted.
(Sometime before Trial) - Condon is supposed to have been threatened to be named an accomplice.
1-10-35 Condon testifies box made from 3 different pieces of wood and doesn't remember who built it. Identifies Hauptmann.
12-27-35 Condon writes letter saying he knows the cabinet maker who cut the strips for the ladder.
1-17-36 Samuelsohn tells representative of Hoffman he was asked to change his story to say Hauptmann alone ordered the pieces. Also claims that Condon has been coming to see him on a regular basis.
1-25-36 Samuelsohn tells Foster he built (3) replicas of the ladder at the request of the NJSP, NYPD, and FBI. Agent Sisk tells Foster that Samuelsohn's receipt had been written in "a different pencil" within the book.
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Post by gismo on Jun 3, 2006 22:37:41 GMT -5
Wow! That's a fantastic timeline Michael! Thank you for posting it.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 4, 2006 7:59:11 GMT -5
TIME LINES COMBINED w/ comments
2-20-32 Hauptmann comes into AS shop and orders wood cut to his drawing specifications, leaves drawing, $5.00 deposit, takes a receipt and leaves with youngish woman he came in with Susan
2-23-32 Two other men, non disclosed, come in and lay cut pieces of wood out on floor and tell AS that several are cut incorrectly, please recut Susan
2-25-32 Same two men come in and pick up ladder wood, 24 pieces in all, take drawing from AS, pay him Susan
3-1-32 kidnapping
3-25?-32/ Jafsie has Abraham Samuelsohn make the five-ply veener box with a casement lock for $3 bucks/ takes 3 days. rick
4-2-32 Ransom drop @ St Raymonds
9-8-33 Condon tells Agent Manning that dimensions and plans for the box were made by his son-in-law Hacker. These plans called for the 6 x 7 x 14 to be made from the inside. He claimed the was built "two days" after rec'ing the note and said box had a lock but it wasn't used and that he still had possession of the key. Condon also claimed the box was made with (3) pieces of wood he obtained. These pieces were: White pine, poplar, and a piece of boxwood or mahogany and that he took these pieces to be built into the box to one of his "friends" and that no one, including Lindbergh, knew who built the box. Condon claimed the $50,000 "just fit" into the box and the other $20,000 did not. Lt. Finn asked Agent Manning who built the box so it became obvious no one ever made an attempt to find out prior to his investigation. Manning and Condon then began to ride around looking for the shop of the cabinet-maker who built the box. Condon pointed out a vacant store and claimed the man who made the box "used to have a business there." Later, Condon claimed that "old man Peretty" made the box for $3.25. The purpose for the multiple types of wood was to be able to easily identify it. MM
9-9-33 Agent Manning was able to track down the whereabouts of Frank Peremi Jr. and learned that his father - Frank Peremi Sr.- had died. MM
9-12-33 After a conference with Capt. Oliver, and Lt. Keaton, it was decided that Frank Peremi Jr. would be tracked down and interviewed at a later date. MM
9-22-33 Agent Manning interviews Frank Peremi Jr. and learns that his father, Frank Peremi Sr. had died in 10-31. Peremi tells Manning that Condon and Reich did come into his shop "about ten days prior to payment" of the ransom and inquired if Peremi would build a box 6 x 7 x 14. Peremi agreed he would for $3.50. Condon told him it was too much money and departed. Manning notes in his report that Condon was untruthful with him. MM
3-6-34 Agent Seykora interviews Peremi in the presence of Condon. Condon asked Peremi what materials he used in building the box for him and Peremi told him he didn't build it because he said $3.50 was too much. Peremi suggested that maybe Samuelsohn built it, and Condon said it was possible. MM
Peremi's suggestion to see Samuelsohn indicates to me that there were not that many cabinetmakers around there. Also Condon's first attempt with Peremi suggests that he had no relationship prior with Samuelsohn.
3-7-34 Agent Seykora takes Condon to Samuelsohn's shop. Samuelsohn immediately identified Condon as the man he built the box for. Samuelsohn's records indicated that on 3-25-32 he built the box for $3.00. Samuelsohn claimed the box was made of maple, five ply veneer, and was put together in tongue and groove method with glue. Samuelsohn did not recall placing a lock in it. Samuelsohn then turned over a left-over sample of wood from the box, and he was requested to make a replica. According to Samuelsohn, he asks "if the government wants a criminal and a citizen knows where that criminal is and where he is does the government give the citizen protection if he tells?" He is told they don't, therefore, he doesn't mention anything about the ladder.MM
Is this your interpretation?
5- (late)-34 Hauptmann comes back into AS shop for a small woodworking job Susan
7-5-34 Hauptmann comes back for cabinet work, a two hour job and asks AS to go out with him, AS declines, RBH chides him, but leaves Susan
Were there no reciepts for these jobs?
9-19-34 Hauptmann arrested
9-20-34 Line-Up at Greenwich Street Station. Condon declines to identify Hauptmann. MM
9-21-34 Condon talks with Agent Turrou and attempts to "pump" him for information. He tells Turrou his life now wasn't worth five cents and "they were going to kill him." He later tells Turrou that Hauptmann would not be identified by him because he was doubtful he was John. He said Hauptmann was much heavier, had different eyes, different hair, etc. MM
9-24-34 Samuelsohn tells Breslin he thinks he built the ladder and is interrogated and explains he didn't come forward sooner because he was afraid. Certain pieces ordered by Hauptmann. MM
Actually built the ladder? I though the $14 job was for pine. Samuelsohn is admitting here that he knew the $14 job was for a ladder and that he knew or suspected Hauptmann was the kidnapper. Yet he keeps completely silent, not even an anonymous call? Then he proceeds to do two more jobs for the kidnapper???
9-25-34 Samuelsohn interrogated by Breslin again. MM
9-26-34 Samuelsohn is brought to the Training School. He identifies "some" pieces and turns over left-over pieces from the job and shows the receipt. Cpl. Leon is doubtful. Bornmann makes first attic search report without any comment of missing piece in Hauptmann's attic. Samuelsohn told to go back to Bronx and keep his mouth shut. MM
9-26-34 AS is taken to Alpine, NJ to the training school to look at ladder and identify it - he identifies some of the uprights, says that only some of the small pieces are ones he sold and states that the lumber has been recut since he sold it He also stated that there were 24 pieces in all and 3 dowel sticks and told where he bought the lumber and the dowel sticks. Susan
Where was he taken?
9-27-34 Samuelsohn questioned by Breslin, Lamb, and Appel in New York. MM
9-28-34 Samuelsohn's samples are examined by Koehler. Identifies them as yellow pine but says they are different then the ladder. MM
Koehler is pictured with a replica ladder on 9-29-32. Who built this ? Would not Koehler want to speak to Samuelsohn?
10-09-34 Bornmann back-dates 9-26 report to include missing piece of board on the attic floor. MM
10-24-34 Condon sees Hauptmann in Flemington Jail. According to Hauptmann he declares he "cannot testify against this man." MM
11-7-34 Cpl. Leon assigned confidential investigation by Schwarzkopf to find out if Hauptmann knew Condon and/or Reich. MM
12-15-34 Condon tells Reporters he does not believe Hauptmann will be convicted. MM
(Sometime before Trial) - Condon is supposed to have been threatened to be named an accomplice. MM
1-10-35 Condon testifies box made from 3 different pieces of wood and doesn't remember who built it. Identifies Hauptmann. MM
1-14/15-35 NYTimes....Headlines: Ladder "Builder" Not To Be Called.... and Carpenter Tells Story...Insists It Was BRH that Had Him Build the Ladder rick
12-27-35 Condon writes letter saying he knows the cabinet maker who cut the strips for the ladder. MM
Who does he write the letter to?
1-17-36 Samuelsohn tells representative of Hoffman he was asked to change his story to say Hauptmann alone ordered the pieces. Also claims that Condon has been coming to see him on a regular basis. MM
1-25-36 Samuelsohn tells Foster he built (3) replicas of the ladder at the request of the NJSP, NYPD, and FBI. Agent Sisk tells Foster that Samuelsohn's receipt had been written in "a different pencil" within the book. MM
What does this mean? Within what book?
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Post by rick3 on Jun 4, 2006 11:24:38 GMT -5
Kevin...big Kudos on the Timeline....it should be moved to permanent status! A MM Board Classic. Printable in color too/ YOU WIN ANOTHER "exalt"!/
I have one question: I think BOI Special Agent Sisk gets involved in September 1933 as per Gardner pp.
One correction: The NYTimes articles are Jan 14-15 1935!!! Right smack dab in the midst of the Trial of the Century. They have to be when you see the Headlines....Cabinet Maker will not be Called.
So....how does everyone claim deaf dumb and happy? With Abrahams name blasted all over right at Trial Time Ground Zero. If the Press knows he exists then why doesnt the Defense and Prosecution and everyone else. AS has been buried alive for 75 years!@#$%^&*()_+?
Now we can check all the documents to see what did AS know, when did he know it, and who did he tell where and when?
Wheres the Beef? Where is the proof that AS saying BRH built or ordered the ladder from him didnt derive from one of AG Willitnz's famous threats to witnesses?
WHEN DID SAMUELSOHN NAME THE TWO LADDER PICKER UPPER GUYS TO WHOM AND HOW MANY PERSONS KNEW ALL THIS TIME????sISK? mANNING/? WILINTZ/? REILLY?
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Post by carol on Jun 4, 2006 12:08:21 GMT -5
I've read Susan's posts about her grandfather building the ladder with interest, but I must say that I have some problems with her story. To begin with I read about this in an issue of Liberty magazine and AS claimed that the woman Hauptmann came in with was a blond who he knew had gone back to Germany after the kidnapping. On the CAL board Susan said she was a dark haired woman. Why the discrepancy?
I'm not a wood expert like Kevin, so I can't comment on those things, or legal issues like MJR, nor have I done the amount of research that Michael has, but there are just some things that don't make any sense. Why would Hauptmann come back to AS's shop two years later for a small woodworking job and cabinet work? Unless he didn't know what the lumber he asked AS to cut was for I'd think he'd stay as far away from the shop as possible. I also think that it made sense for the gang to build the ladder in total secrecy and not involve anyone else.
The fact that Condon and Samuelsohn knew each other is also a problem for me. Condon acted as the go-between for Lindbergh, and, yet, someone he knew built, or was hired to build, the ladder that was used to kidnap the child he was trying to help recover. IMO, if AS built the ladder it almost guarantees Condon's involvement in the crime.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 4, 2006 13:01:21 GMT -5
I am glad that you make this observation Carol. I don't think one needs to be an expert to see the obvious problems with the whole story. It simply defies rational explanation.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 4, 2006 17:50:53 GMT -5
Yes Carol/ its difficult to tell if AS is withholding names for a reason or an excuse? In a capital murder case, i dont think you get to voluntarily withhold evidence that could either convict or exonerate the Prime Suspect. Whos kidding who here..."well Im just not going to tell you"? We can only assume for the sake of continuity that at "some finite point" AS was forced to reveal the womans name and the two Pickup Artists names as well.
On the issue of Condon/Samuelsohn: well Jafsie as usual blurts out "that he has known AS for many years" at first to get attention. But since jafsie has ADHD we cant really count on that? So, what does AS say about his relationship to Condon...so far notheing more than AS made him a box for $3 bucks and "didnt put on any lock"? So maybe Condon gave CJ(?) his own antigue box for a keepsake which was promtly rejected and thrown into the bushes? Condon is a chronic publicity seeker who jumps on any Bandwagon, likely to produce interviews, led by another more famous. Like CAl and then AS when someone suspects he has evidence about BRH? Carl Oursley (LIberty) catches Condon up in many lies or just Tall Tales. CONDON IS JUST THE KIND OF MAD HATTER YOU WOULD WANT FOR A GO-BETWEEN IF THE ENTIRE KIDNAP WAS SOME KIND OF HOAX GONE WRONG AND CHARLIE IS DEAD.
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Post by mjrichmond on Jun 5, 2006 5:25:30 GMT -5
<<<CONDON IS JUST THE KIND OF MAD HATTER YOU WOULD WANT FOR A GO-BETWEEN IF THE ENTIRE KIDNAP WAS SOME KIND OF HOAX GONE WRONG AND CHARLIE IS DEAD. >>> (Rick3)
He is also the kind you would want if it was a legitimate kidnapping and you wanted the police to be as confused as possible.
Mjr
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 5, 2006 5:58:34 GMT -5
<<<CONDON IS JUST THE KIND OF MAD HATTER YOU WOULD WANT FOR A GO-BETWEEN IF THE ENTIRE KIDNAP WAS SOME KIND OF HOAX GONE WRONG AND CHARLIE IS DEAD. >>> (Rick3) He is also the kind you would want if it was a legitimate kidnapping and you wanted the police to be as confused as possible. Mjr I suppose he might also be seen by a local Bronx resident as a figure of some respect who would be taken seriously. Personally I think anyone who could accurately perceive his idiosyncrasies would not touch this guy with a ten foot pole. Regarding this whole Samuelsohn affair. I have been going over and over the story and it's ramifications. My conclusion, for what it is worth is that when you come right down to it, this story, in the absence of more factual data, is a red herring. Essentially it gets us nowhere and proves nothing. It doesn't prove Hauptmann guilty of the kidnapping simply because no forensic triangle is made. The wood order, though interesting, does not in anyway actually relate to the kidnap ladder. It doesn't prove Hauptmann was innocent in any way that I can see. It doesn't prove others were involved because the mysterious woman's identity seems forever lost as well as the two young men. And without the ability to link that wood to the kidnapping there is no way they can be linked to the crime either. More importantly the fact that Samuelsohn seems to be more cooperative after Hauptmann's arrest indicates , to some degree, that Hauptmann was the sole threat. It doesn't prove that Hauptmann acted alone as it at least indicates that he may have had help or accomplices. It doesn't prove Condon's criminal involvement as Samuelsohn is not the first choice by Condon for the box. In short this story just doesn't get us anywhere.
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Post by Michael on Jun 5, 2006 10:06:34 GMT -5
Great job on combining the timelines Kevin. I still have more to add to it but we are certainly getting there.
Additionally, you have made two very good points as to why Rails 12 & 13 couldn't have been from Samuelsohn. The latter is a very good one because I don't believe his measurements of the wood he purchased could have been mistaken via accent, or misunderstanding. Combined with your first point concerning the mortices then you have made a very strong case here.
Again though, Samuelsohn was clear this ladder wasn't the same. He was, according to the reports and Susan, supposed to have identified only (1) or (2) pieces. And we've pretty much already proven he made a mistake concerning the species of Pine, or the Police misunderstood him.
Does this erase any potential value of his story?
Well, it may erase the notion that he built "the ladder" but it doesn't take away from his account of what happened. Again, the point he is a cabinet-maker applies to both sides of the argument here. He turned over left-over pieces for the ransom box and turned over left-over pieces for the job he claims Hauptmann and the woman came into his shop for on 2-20. He is consistent. He had receipts in his receipt log (or book) for both purchases and neither had a name listed or attached. Again, he is consistent.
Now Kevin I don't understand your point concerning Condon. Condon is clearly attempting to misdirect the Authorities by telling them a dead man built the box. The shop no longer existed and to me its pretty clear what's going on. He didn't expect Manning to follow this up. Poor memory? I don't think so.... Because we see Condon utilize one of his best known tactics and that is - to repeat a past lie.... He does this on the stand in Flemington and if you believe him, that he didn't know who built the box and that it really was made of (3) different types of wood then I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I want to sell you.
Let's take a look at the timing of it.....
I see Samuelsohn implicating Hauptmann. At the time I see Condon trying to keep the Police away from Samuelsohn. Once Hauptmann is arrested, Condon is doing his very best NOT to implicate him. Condon was protecting Hauptmann. Clearly Hauptmann's demeanor as reflected within the Stockburger Reports indicate this as do the reports up until that point.
It isn't until its either "Condon or Hauptmann" that he finally gives in. And when Hauptmann gets word of the betrayal his goes into the throughs of depression.
I see this as supporting what Samuelsohn said. He turned over pieces that he had left-over from both jobs. He could have picked up 2 x 4 if it was BS and turned them over couldn't he? The dowels are also important here. I know because I have the investigations by the police into them. They simply were a unique component of this ladder.
There is just too much here for me to dismiss regardless if the ladder lumber itself was totally foreign to Samuelsohn's shop. For me there is a connection or Condon would have brought them directly to Samuelsohn in the first place.
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Post by Michael on Jun 5, 2006 10:22:14 GMT -5
Peremi didn't suggest this - It was Manning's idea.
We already know Samuelsohn's account. He never claimed he put the pieces together. What I say is how people referred to the story.
The NJSP Training School which is now the Headquarters.
I don't know whose replica this is. I have always assumed it was Koehler's but we simply don't have enough data. I too would assume he would want to talk with Samuelsohn but in the absence of any source then I see no evidence of it.
The New York Times. I have a copy of the letter which is in his handwriting.
It clearly iswithin the context of the report.
I would assume there were but no record of any investigation revealing such.
His receipt log (or book). I assume Sisk pointed this out to Foster to indicate the possibility if may have been added after the fact. It's something a good investigator would make note of to consider and investigate further. Obviously, if you accept it was added ex post facto then you have no choice but to believe Samuelsohn was untruthful which certainly isn't my position based upon his other actions as I mentioned above.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Jun 5, 2006 10:45:51 GMT -5
Kevin/Michael: Do cabinet makers really keep scraps of lumber around thier shops after a job is completed for more than one year and upwards of two? Is this believable?
And....if they do in fact keep scraps of wood all filed away with times, dates and names on them......WELL WHO IS AROUND THAT CAN CHECK THE ACCURACY OF THEIR WOOD CONNECTIONS AND STATEMENTS?
If the original ransom box "is missing" AND the ladder wood has all been supstituted for different rails and rungs--then how can thier be any match?
Please remind us all of the "dates on the timelines" that AS produces this matching lumber scraps? September 1934...30 months after the fact? How can this be?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 5, 2006 16:18:52 GMT -5
I brought that point up earlier. The only scraps that have any type of lifespan are usually those of rare or highly figured wood. Most softwoods and plywood scraps end up as blocking or go into the wood stove.Even if some survived there is no way they could be linked to any particular job.
Michael, you seem to want to keep this ball in play, so I guess you have good reason. For what it is worth here is my opinion. I get the feeling from the the fact that Peremi Jr was almost 20% higher on his box price and that Samuelsohn seemed to be able to get right onto both the wood order and the box, that it might have been known that Samuelsohn was cheaper and not so busy. That might make the choice by Hauptmann to go to him as well as Condon less of long shot. Now I can not disregard the $14 price for this wood supposedly ordered by Hauptmann. I also noted the remark about plans prepared by a draftsman. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to provide plans for an order involving wood cut to width and length. When I combine these two elements ( one alone is enough, actually) I can only conclude that this order was not for 24 pcs of wood similar to that found on the ladder, but something more extensive and involved. Perhaps Samuelsohn is simply mistaken about this order in it's entirety. I am bothered by the lack of receipts for the wood and the order, though. It is puzzling that this other receipt for clear pine survived. Is there any connection between this order and the kidnap ladder? Not directly, however as I mentioned there is a slight possibility that the wood (or some of it) used in building the ladder was somehow connected to whatever job Hauptmann was engaged in when he placed his order with Samuelsohn. As for Condon's involvement, who knows? I certainly don't. If I had to guess there does seem to be a thread of Condon exaggeration and grandstanding weaving through this whole Samuelsohn story. Bottom line, it is no wonder to me that Samuelsohn was not called by either the prosecution or the defense.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Jun 6, 2006 11:57:25 GMT -5
Kevin/ I totally agree......as for receipts or orders in logbooks didnt one of the Agents, Sisk or Manning offer that one of AS logbook lines was "in a different style or pencil"? I'm just pulling this from memory.
What bothers me, bothers me, about this whole ladder wood episode is that it just paralllels much too closely with the now mysterious ransom box story and seems to piggy back right on top of it?
Somewhere(?) in Condons posession there is an 1836 antigue ballot box to be copied for the ransom money. BUT first son-in-law Ralph Hacker needs to draw up complex plans? what for? And the 5 woods will be rare and tropical hardwoods? And the scraps will be saved for all eternity. And then el cheapo Condon "will pay AS to makie a copy or replica of the ransom box"?? Why for.
Sounds like a pre-print, rough outline, rehersal for the ladder wood story to me? After all, it was the ransom box and not the ladder wood or BRH that snagged AS in the first place!!
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Post by Michael on Jun 6, 2006 17:24:18 GMT -5
I simply don't see a motive for AS to make anything up. He also seems very consistent and doesn't waver under pressure. And really - for what purpose? He isn't looking for reward money, and is scared for his life.
He turned over wood samples for the box then turns them over for the ladder. If you don't believe one then how do you believe the other?
And if he is making up the story about the box...how so? Did someone call him to let him know the FBI was coming?
He provided receipts for both orders. He knew what the ladder looked like...as Kevin pointed out...he was a Cabinet Maker. Surely he could have pulled off a more convincing ruse.
He saw the ladder and recognized in its assembly a unique design, a design he cut to specs by order of those coming into his shop. He even had left-over dowels....
I see something here. Perhaps we should let the matter rest until such time it becomes ripe again.
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Post by gary on Jun 7, 2006 18:14:40 GMT -5
I agree with you Michael. It appears a possibility that Condon could have been protecting Hauptmann. Actually I think there is a possibility Hauptmann expected Condon to protect him by his comments he made in his last days. If in fact this is so I can not say but what could tie Hauptmann and Condon together besides the CJ and jafcie relationship?
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Post by Michael on Jun 7, 2006 18:38:13 GMT -5
Gary,
There are several things which could indicate they knew each other somehow....To name a few:
Samuelsohn.
Alexander testified Hauptmann was watching Condon. I have always believed it was BS but Jafsie declared it wasn't true in the papers before he "flipped" on Hauptmann.
City Island....especially Dixon's Boathouse.
Hauptmann and Condon seemed to have been seen in frequenting the same places in the Bronx.
Dr. Gardner's book. We see for the first time in print that Hauptmann admitted seeing Condon before and after the kidnapping (p385).
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Post by rick3 on Jun 7, 2006 20:50:13 GMT -5
Gary...I too have always felt that BRH recognized Condon, even from afar, as a friend, or known guantity, who would not send him to his death. After all Condons first declaration is "I can never testify against this man" (never say never)
It has always seemed to me that the ransom negotiations, especially in the hands of Condon were staged to appear to relate to getting Charlie back alive and well. Not a chance there. A sleeping suite does not a living child represent. 14 ransom notes, phone calls, taxi notes and the whole nine yards were to kill time. CAL finally admits " we have stalled long enough".
I think Condons job was to "keep the ransom negotiations" up in the air long enough to appear viable...stall for time, take 3 days making the AS wooden box...you name it. Keep the case on the front pages. I also think it was Condons job to "coach" CJ as to how he really kidnapped the baby by describing the scene of the crime. Its the only thing that could take two hours==oh yes and convince the gang they would pay $50K for the sleeping suite alone? That takes some talking.
Noone was ever supposed to get caught. Condon fingered every male over 12 years olde in the tristate area so no description would hold. 30 months of money laudering went by right there in the Bronx without a single arrest. Do you believe that? Only $15K was left?
Just because the extortion was a hoax, well doesnt mean that the kidnap was a hoax too. We are still searching for the Theory of the Motive and it wasnt for a measly $50K! Thats for sure/
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Post by Michael on Jun 8, 2006 5:24:39 GMT -5
Good points Rick.
If you recall, Condon didn't seem to want Lindbergh going with him to St. Raymond's did he?
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
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Post by kevkon on Jun 8, 2006 6:40:31 GMT -5
Not seeing a motive doesn't mean there isn't one present and it certainly hasn't caused anyone from being put into the suspect category before. How scared is he? Scared enough to do several more jobs for Hauptmann?
Could you elaborate on why the need to stall or delay was important ?
I have a problem with this. If I am reading you correctly, this whole affair is the work of some group or organization of which Condon, CJ/ Hauptmann and others are part. Yet we find a rather amateurish method of money laundering going on. If no one was supposed to be caught ( and I am assuming from your previous post that the $50k was incidental) then why allow this localized laundering to go on? With the power and resources of an organization, why not launder that money in a more effective ( and remote) manner? Why jeopardize this whole operation by allowing Hauptmann or others to wander around the city buying fruit with $5 and $10 bills?
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Post by rick3 Detective 4 on Jun 14, 2006 1:17:31 GMT -5
Kevin and Michael: I have received my Care Package from Mark at the NJSP Archives: 1. General Guide 2. Abraham Samuelsohn files. Included are one or two blockbusters.
Kevin: I have said for some time that everyding wid da ransom negotiations "just took too long". To assemble the money, to refuse most money contributors, stubborness on CALs part, "too many ransom notes" (Amadeus) , to many posts in the Newspapers: "mony is redy" over and over 18 times? You get my point. AND there was No Wooden Box required Needed--another 3 days blown to be dumped in bushes. We dont know the reason but one is "to make all these shenanigans look like a kidnap" OR to give CAL time to find Charlie himself? I dont know. At one point CAL says to jafsie "WE have stalled long enough"/ Amen. "Not one scintilla of evidence that Charlie was ever alive" (Wright)
2. Bombshell #1: Fred Smyder, Tool and Die Salesman from Maspeth, L.I.reports seeing Condon and Reich in Samuelsons Shop on 25 February 1932 "with the Lindbergh Ladder on the floor right in front of all four of them"! Woo woo/ that should wake up the cows? Smyder demonstrates his new wood clamps "on the LLadder for them"!! Gee Whiz--did AS mention this to the cops too? Multiple interviews of Smyder back up his ID. One on March 4th 1936.
3. In the Carl Ousler Affair (Liberty) whereas Condon takes him to meet Samuelsohn about the box and BRH's ordering of the ladder wood....Ousler buys two pieces of the ladder wood left over and sends them to Gov. Hoffman and/or Koehler for comparison matching? no resolution described. Also, In Panama, Ousler accuses Condon of saying "I saw blood on Charlies crib in the Nursery"??
4. The woman with BRH in AS shop is "24 years olde, 5'3 or 5'4", white, black Hudson seal coat, small black felt hat, fair complexion and brunette hair" eg Edna Sharpe went back to Germany? Just guessing?
5. Two ladder pickup men as described by AS: skinny fellow, 5'6", 125-130, white, fair complexion, black hair, blue serge suite, dark overcoat, felt hat, watch chain "with college emblem on it"? Good English and good drawing ablity--worked for a draftsman? [who dat/ Fisch/ Dwight Morrow Jr? ] Perp #2 5'6", 160-165, dark complexion, black hair, navy blue overcoat, dark felt hat.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jun 14, 2006 7:33:06 GMT -5
That is quite a bombshell since it proves;
A) Samuelsohn is guilty of conspiracy
B) Condon & Reich are guilty of kidnapping/ murder
C) There were at least two ladders involved in the kidnap
D) The above mentioned suspects are not only guilty of the crimes of the LKC but also of being the most idiotic and stupid group of kidnappers the world has ever seen. Which, sadly, makes all of us even dumber for wasting our time intellectualizing over a crime whose perpetrators were so feeble minded that they allowed a salesman to use their ladder for a handy demonstration. If they were just a tad smarter they might have considered advertising royalties.
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Post by rick3 on Jun 14, 2006 8:40:52 GMT -5
Kevin: What kidnapping-- A and M claimed it is all a hoax anyways, fillied to the brim with "hoaxers and hucksters"?
A} Maybe just NOT revealing the TRUTH? Sin of omission?
B} Maybe no kidnap or murder yet proven? This would also include CAL, the Four Colonels of the Apocalypse, NJSP and Wilitnz too?
C) Maybe not? Maybe just a "composite"? Kind of a mix and match ensemble? Depending on what you need when?
D] They all fooled us for nighe on 75 years/ pretty good ruse I would think?
Aside: Clearly, Abraham Samuelsohn's Shop has opened up a huge can of worms that will take another 75 years to sort out/
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Post by mjrichmond on Jun 14, 2006 12:56:55 GMT -5
<<<One on March 4th 1936.>>>Rick 3
1936 or 1932? What other dates?
On the question of Hauptmann saying Condon held the keys to his cell, I have always interpreted that as nothing more sinister that that Hauptmann believed he would be exonerated if Condon announced he was not John (although it is possible Hauptmann had heard too much of Condon's "mysteries" and thought Condon really did have the answer).
Mjr
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Post by rick3 on Jun 14, 2006 18:18:41 GMT -5
mjr: Only two reports for Mr. Fred Smyder, 56-13 59th Place, Maspeth, Long Island NY are provided. One dated Feb 25, 1936 and the other March 4th 1936. the Investigator taking the Statement: Mr. William Lewis.
Although this is rather late in the game/ Smyder says he realized all this...in early 1935 when Abraham Samuelson was in the news about the ransom box and the ladder. He then went to see BRHs Chief Council Reilly who said can you testify to this being Condon who said "did you finish my order"? No says Smyder, "not without meeting him first--to be certain"? {also present Mr. Thielen} "REilly REfused??? DYBT?
Second insight: Condon's son, Ralph Hacker, works in the office of an draftsman and architech and as such drew up the plans for the ransom box. So, does he match the description of the person #1 picking up the ladder from AS as well? Did Ralph draw up the plans for the ladder? That would make it Hacker and not Fisch?
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