kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 29, 2006 11:39:55 GMT -5
Perhaps, but it seems obvious that Samuelsohn's fears have been alleviated. That's problematic for anyone who believes Hauptmann is innocent and/or a small player in a large gang. Your only move here is to include Samuelsohn in the list of suspects, something I am unwilling to do.
Precisely
Ironically, here I am actually aiding the conspiracy angle since I can not accept this whole story as put forth.
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Post by mjrichmond on May 29, 2006 15:47:10 GMT -5
<<<Hmm/ well Im having a few second thoughts? Lets assume for just a moment that susancandy is legit and that Abraham is telling the Truth. Could this blow the Prosecutions case? Maybe Michael is being too kind about the damage it could do to Bornmann and Koehlers wood discoveries? Possibly prove even perjury and a frame of Rail 16? That could be bad for the Prosecution==right?>>> (Rick3)
I do not want to belabor this point but, no, it would not blow the prosecution's case. It has nothing whatever to do with Bornmann's or Koehler's testimony regarding rail 16. That evidence could have been presented just as it was and still had the same impact.
Kevkon - this is not about "legal stuff". This goes to the heart of the reliability/credibility of the Samuelsohn story. If the story as we are hearing it is true, then it was simply too important for Wilentz not to use it.
If Wilentz did not use this story it is because a) there was something seriously wrong with it that made its credibility questionable, or b) there was something actually exculpatory included that Wilentz did not want the jury to hear.
Mjr
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 29, 2006 17:34:20 GMT -5
Yes, I know. I made the same point a few posts ago. I am just trying to concentrate on the mechanical/ wood perspective in this on going story and am happy to let one better versed in the trial ramifications, such as you, deal with it.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on May 29, 2006 18:45:47 GMT -5
yo boys/ wjr and kev/ methinks you are jumping the gun before you have a full accounting? Sorry to see this has caused your knickers to get into a knot? Its a bit like closing the barn door before the horse runs away?
Kevin.. you especially should know better. you havent any clue how I feel about this case and suggesting that I have no other OUT than to indict AS as a gang member is patently absurd? You shouldnt drink so much on Holidays.
At best we have a sketchy story buried/deep-sixthed for nighe on 75 years. By womb pray tell--AG Wilintx, BRh, Death House, we dont know. Lots of persons could have exposed it after 2 separate articles in the NYTimes but they didnt? SAmuelsohn is a known quantity, but only for a very short time in Jan 1935. The TRial of the cEntruy daily blurbs bury him till 2004 and The Case that Never Dies. If and when we get a time line and some more info...then you can start filling the sky with lead/ No wonder Cheney shot the lawyer just shooting at anything that moved? Dont shoot each other? First rule of hunting buddies/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 29, 2006 19:28:03 GMT -5
Are you not the one who jumped the gun by proclaiming the "Samuelsohn story literally blows the lid off the LKC"? Maybe all the posts under so many different names has caused you to lose track of your position?
Why Rick you appear to be the one who is in a knot here
I would say 1000 or so posts give me some idea.
No drinking, just a visit to some hallowed ground.
A time line would certainly be helpful, but it won't change the basic facts and it certainly won't change the ramifications of Samuelsohn's revelations and what it implies regarding a gang.
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Post by susancandy on May 29, 2006 20:35:58 GMT -5
Kevkon, did I get that right. To try and answer some of your questions. I, like Michael have an entire Samuelsohn file on my desk in addition the the FBI reports, trial transcripts and various other reports to fall back on in addition to what my Grandpa told me. We also have the ransom box and ladder that he made for the NJ SP for the trial. He cut 24 pieces of wood and the job cost $14.00. Hauptmann left a $5.00 deposit and when the pieces were picked up, the remaining $9.00 was paid. According to AS statement: when he examined the ladder in Trenton(twice) for the NJ SP, he claimed that it had been tampered with, pieces recut and all in all not exactly the same pieces he had delivered on February 27, 1932. He was at the trial in Flemington, I have pictures of same. My Mom took him. He did not come forward until Hauptmann was arrested because he did get several death threats. We may still have the notes in our family files. I know that I have one on the family tape, which Michael has. And again, guys, I say this, in order to understand this case, get into the heads of these people, try to put yourself in their times, then perhaps you might understand. I have lived with this all my life, I understand the time frame and mentality of that age, but I will never understand the crime and its ramifications. Oh, and by the way, in 1990 Anna Hauptmann with her attorney Robert Bryan visited Dallas. Mr. Bryan called me to set up a meeting with my Mom and Uncle. My Mom had dementia and my Uncle wouldn't agree, so I refused. The government or powers that be were very much aware of Abraham Samuelsohn and his role in this case. Do not discount it. It may not be of major significance to anyone else, but it is to my family.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 29, 2006 21:35:09 GMT -5
Susan, thanks for the info. I hope I have made it clear that in no way do I feel he was involved in this crime and that I believe him to be a craftsman. That being said I must, however, continue with my doubts to some aspects of this affair. It could be that I am misunderstanding or ignorant of some relevant information and if so , please feel free to correct me. For starters, the $14 price for supplying " cheap" wood with a minimal amount of labor seems far excessive by 1932 pricing. Compare this cost versus the price for the box which entailed at least 6 times the labor and included hardware. Now I move onto the ladder and I find another dilemma. The kidnap ladder does not contain the proper wood as supplied by A Samuelsohn. Not by species, not by condition, and not by saw and planer marks. I ask myself if I could identify such common wood so long after the fact without any other means of identification and the answer is no. Now I have heard that there was some form of identification that Mr Samuelsohn saw in the form of pencil marks. But where are they? I, too have a folder, and it keeps growing. In it are photos, and examinations of the kidnap ladder covering every square inch and yet I have never seen or heard mention of these marks. Finally I come to the issue of Mr Samuelsohn not coming forward immediately after the kidnapping to report what he knew and not being used as a witness in the trial. Can I believe he was scared? Sure, who wouldn't be. But given what is at stake here was his fear so great as to preclude him from making a phone call? Even if Hauptmann went into his shop and pulled that Liliput out, would it not be safer to contact the authorities and eliminate the threat? And once again, if Hauptmann is not acting alone, why would A. Samuelsohn feel any safer after his arrest? And why wouldn't the prosecution use his testimony? Even if such testimony implicates others it also tightens the noose around Hauptmann's neck tighter. And what of those others, are they going to stand around and wait for Samuelsohn to id them? So many questions and so few answers.
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Post by Michael on May 29, 2006 21:42:39 GMT -5
He was given a sketch with the dimensions and told what kind to use. I think what you are looking for could have been brought out by better questions coming from the Police interviewing him. I think people were just happy to have work...asking what the project was to be used for and given the explanation he received was more like a "mind your own business" type of response.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Apparently Rick pulled an old post from "Antlerbones" AKA Keraga - off of the "truth" site. I don't have access and therefore can not possibly know the context in which it was written but I can tell you this receipt isn't related to the lumber purchase Samuelsohn links to interaction with Hauptmann on 2-20.
Do we really know he didn't? Do you know how many letters were sent just in the first month to the various parties? Besides, what does he say which doesn't lead straight to himself? I really don't understand this logic - this was an era that defined the term "drive-by" and corruption. I still can't believe he ever came forward with his "ladder" story in the first place.
I just see it differently. It appears to disrupt their strategies....from Koehler to Condon.
There's alot here we just don't know. The timing for one. This shows the crime isn't perpetrated by one person at the spur of the moment. The theories. Do they know who Samuelsohn believed the other men were? The woman? Could this have been damaging to other of their witnesses?
I think this calls for speculation. I don't know what strategy they would employ during cross if and when Samuelsohn was called to the stand. The Defense had PI's working for them too and they interviewed potential witnesses. As we see in Condon's testimony itself he pretends not to remember who built the box. Cross examination of the honest Samuelsohn could have revealed Condon's lies simply by asking normal questions put to this witness. He would have been put there by Wilentz but wasn't "pulling" for anything but the truth.
From an interview with Samuelsohn it appears he was asked to say it was Hauptmann alone who purchased the lumber and he declined to say that. They also wanted him to say the ladder was all original from what he generated and he declined to say that as well.
Say what you will, he may have been afraid - but he was a "stand-up" guy and once he came forward with what he believed was the absolute truth that's all he was going to give them.
All things considered it would have been a roll of the dice.
It's not the first time I am on the opposite end of a certain position. I will keep in mind your thoughts and will certainly apply whatever I find to both sides of this debate. I will certainly keep you in the loop.
You can't have it both ways - if its what you list above. However, I personally don't see the story as applying to this test - so it can't be held to this test. You are suggesting that Samuelsohn knew the child would be murdered and I am wondering how you know this... Also, if it were the lives of your family versus a "tip" which would you personally choose? How does Samuelsohn's story make him a wood butcher?
$14 total. $5 deposit, and $9 at pick-up.
Well no one seems to dispute Samuelsonn turning over left-over pieces from the ransom box construction. I think the "can't having it both ways" argument applies here as well. I also recall that he did turn over a receipt to the Police....I have been searching for this report for hours but haven't found it yet.
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Post by Michael on May 29, 2006 21:56:19 GMT -5
I didn't realize this thread continued so I want to comment further on this above....
I think the potential to confuse the jury would exist just as the very same confusion appears within our very own debate so in essence it would, in my opinion, been something to consider.
I simply can't accept Wilentz NOT using someone's testimony because he personally didn't believe it. We already know he would e.g. Hochmuth, Whited, etc. Curtis being on "stand-by" is enough to make me sick. No way did Wilentz believe this to be true yet was completely willing to use his testimony if necessary.
I think creditability as it relates to what the jury may or may not believe. Your other reason is absolutely correct and I personally believe it was the combination of my modification of your first point and your second wrapped up together.
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Post by Michael on May 30, 2006 5:27:52 GMT -5
I've been thinking more about the Rail 16 point. Let's look at the circumstances....
At the time Samuelsohn is brought to the training School, it is painfully obvious S-226 has not been, for lack of a better term, "discovered" yet. I have always held the theory that Bornmann's back-dated report was done so to reflect 9-26 in order to neutralize Samuelsohn's story. It could very well be that Samuelsohn was told to "keep his mouth shut" because they actually had planned on using him at one time. After all, the (3) main Law Enforcement bodies had him build a replica for each of them. Certainly the NJSP were not in short supply of replicas.
Koehler had, by his very own admission, still failed to "trace" Rails 12 & 13 to National although concluding this earlier found more defects which had proven the shipment couldn't have been the one he originally believed it to be.
Then you have the discovery of S-226, Keith's supposed nail "identification," and Keohler's apparent abandonment of his belief he had been mistaken about tracing Rails 12 & 13 versus Samuelsohn. Then we must consider that Koehler was "playing ball" but Samuelsohn was unwilling to do so.
For Samuelsohn, he was to tell his story exactly as he believed it happened or nothing. So many of the State's Witnesses, motivated by money, fame and/or fear were willing to do as requested by the State. Samuelsohn reminds me of Lupica in this way.
I still want to try and put together a time-line of events which should yield a very small amount of information while requiring a lot of time to research but I think it is necessary in order to track what is going on and when. I also think a closer look at the trial preparation notes are in order as well....
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 30, 2006 6:36:36 GMT -5
Where is this sketch? If he saved worthless scraps of wood and brought them to the NJSP, why not a sketch and receipts?
Do you really believe this? That this could be the exchange between a local carpenter and a cabinetmaker?
I know it has no relation to the ladder, but this was posted, I believe twice, on this board and was not challanged at that time.The reason for the posts is obvious and our FPL expert should have known better. I hope there is no double standard here.
Yes I know, The important question here and it may be the most important question regarding this whole affair is; Why this excessive cost? Remember this is "cheap" or common pine and only about an hour or less of work. Bear in mind this is almost a weeks work wages for Hauptman.
So you are saying that had you been the cabinetmaker who realized he has supplied the wood used in a kidnapping you would sit tight ? What is this threat that the police pose I keep hearing about and would it outweigh the more tangible threat of waiting to "eliminated" by those you can finger?
For one I am still not completely clear on what "his story" is, but I am referring here to the idea that he built the kidnap ladder, which has been put forth by some in their posts.
Michael your last posts still don't address the fact that no wood found on the kidnap ladder could have possibly come from Samuelsohn. This is fact not speculation. If there was even a chance of it being possible, I assure you I would jump all over it. I have tried and it just doesn't fly. I don't know what is going on here and I don't know what to make of it. A trained union carpenter planning to commit a kidnapping walks into a cabinetmaker's shop and pays an extravagant amount for a job he could have done himself. This expensive purchase is then not used. The cabinetmaker recognizes "his" wood 2 years later after remaining silent with the knowledge of the kidnapper's id. The state then dismisses the whole story.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 30, 2006 10:47:45 GMT -5
Just some clarification; The wood supposedly supplied to Hauptmann and Co was, as I understand it; 24 pcs which were produced from 4 pcs of either 1" x 8" or 1" x 10" boards 14 ft long common pine. That works out to 37.52 board ft or 46.48 board ft respectively. At 1932 prices that works out to a material cost of approximately $4.13 ( 1" x 8") or $5.11 ( 1" x 10"). That leaves a whopping ( for the time) $ 9. 87 to $8. 89 for labor and mark- up and we are only talking here about an hours work. Compare this with the ransom box price for a bench mark. That project would probably take Samuelsohn 4 to 6 hours ( with no finish). It would probably have anywhere from .75 cents to $1 in materials. What is wrong here?
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Post by rick3 Mea culpa1 on May 30, 2006 13:50:14 GMT -5
Mike and Kevin: No real need to quibble over this order? It was just a blind post...like a blindside: "Man hit by flying ladder!"
Yes thats right. It was the only post under Samuelson!
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Post by Michael on May 30, 2006 18:17:47 GMT -5
This is by no means a squabble by my definition. We're simply hashing this matter out by discussing our different perceptions etc. For me this is very healthy and I always come away more informed regardless of whether there is agreement on a point or not.
I may have.... It's a hard call to make. During my research I found there were so many unsolved murders.... Bodies literally being found in alley ways, rivers, rooms, etc. - constantly. There is one file at the NJSP Archives I call the "gallery of death" - you ought to see it sometime.... its enough to scare anyone. It makes one wonder why anyone would have come forward and explains why so many told the Police they wanted no involvement and simply wouldn't say whether or not they did see something.
I see this as an exchange between a cabinet-maker and a criminal. I see no point in Samuelsohn lying so therefore he must be telling the truth. If he is lying then I would like to see a motive and why such a "made-up" encounter would be so uneventful.
I definitely trust your figures here. Now this is why we are seeing things differently..... No Police Officer questions Samuelsohn as to the price and neither does Samuelsohn offer up an explanation for why it was so high. Don't you think they knew what prices were for that time-frame in history? Again, for me this is another cog of proof that Samuelsohn is being truthful. Why would a dishonest "made-up" story include such a high price-tag on the job? Do you see how I am looking at this? Samuelsohn isn't trying to make this fit - he is telling his account without "fudging" anything.
This may not fit in with the actual kidnap ladder itself so conclude what you will but do consider that Samuelsohn said the ladder was different and had been altered considerably. Also consider he was asked to alter his position but declined.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 30, 2006 19:11:29 GMT -5
I still can't believe he wouldn't come forward, even if he lived in Dodge City. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point. Regarding the excessive cost of the wood. You are sayinjg that it essentially is another proof of Samuelsohn's honesty. That's fine , as I have no reason to suspect other. But as an honest cabinetmaker we still are left with the dilemma of what this $14 was for. Let me ask you this; Do we have any reciepts for the amount paid by the police for the replica ladders made by Samuelsohn? The only other possibility that I can come up with is that the $14 was for a project unrelated to the LKC.
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Post by rick3 on May 30, 2006 19:34:06 GMT -5
kevin...lets assume for the moment that it is possible for AS to hang in the background until BRH is arrested. Im missing something between the conversation you are sharing with MM> and no, I have no under-lying motive.
Kevin...I think you are saying that maybe "none" of the existant ladder wood comes from the $14.00 order? At least as far as we can tell. So what exactly is it that AS is recognizing from ladder descriptions or newsprint photos? The wood grain, or overall construction design, or 3 sections?
What exactly does it prove if AS makes multiple copies of the ladder, if none of the original wood came from his shop? Im rather fascinated how the ransom box story seems to reflect or mirrow the ladder wood story. The wrong kind of wood is used and then we need to have extra copies of the box made as well? Who is ordering all these multiple copies...JFCondon? I am still puzzled as to the existance of an Antique Ballot Box and why Ralph Hacker needed to design the one that AS made for CJ? I thought IT was a copy too? If Im just dense then shoot me.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 30, 2006 19:46:47 GMT -5
It is not what I am saying, it is fact. The rails are s4s fir and yellow pine with the exception of our favorite #16. The rungs are pine and the only real candidates, but they are cut from a board that does not match Samuelsohn's description.
Exactly. How does this ball of wax start?
I asked this same question many posts ago. Why not bring the damn box with you?
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Post by Michael on May 31, 2006 5:32:52 GMT -5
No - not for the replica ladders (that I know of). The receipt I do have is for the replica ransom box. There's no price on it and it appears it was returned to Samuelsohn.
Unrelated or related. It came to his attention that he did this job after seeing the ladder so I think it is the latter.
If we examine exactly what Samuelsohn was saying then the pieces he turned over would not have matched the ladder.
Exactly what those smaller pieces were for we would assume it was for the rungs but we know the rungs in the ladder were ponderosa and AS's order was yellow pine (by Keohler's examination).
He turned over the left-overs from those smaller pieces. These pieces had been cut in half and were part of the reason why Koehler said they were like the ladder lumber - because they weren't.
I think if he had turned over one of the longer pieces then we could say for certainty they didn't match 12 & 13. They couldn't have match Rail 16 unless it was used for something else first then placed into the ladder. Not enough time for that if you ask me. So we are left with 12 & 13 or an alternative explanation. Kevin made a very good observation concerning AS's statement which seems to indicate he is not identifying these pieces. If he is not being misunderstood, then I think again - we are directed to the latter possibility.
So again I am asking what design would be so similar to the ladder itself and needed by the Perpetrators? If its not the actual ladder what can it be that is was designed similar but just with more pieces?
Could it be, for example, the original ladder had been built and tested then failed. We have someone say "I fix it" and then we have our infamous Rail 16 as part of the "fix".... Someone then says "lets get this done right" or "this is too important" and decides to have the lumber ordered and cut to specs by a craftsman to avoid another "failure." Then for some reason or another - it isn't assembled in time for the actual heist and they must use their original ladder.
Speculation - I know.
But I have always considered the "job" was designed for the weekend....probably the one after March 2nd. It appears to me they were making trial runs on the weekend before. They were probably advised suddenly on Monday prepare for a Tuesday job and therefore certain aspects which were intended to be wrapped up before the week's end were left undone.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 31, 2006 7:34:12 GMT -5
First, I forgot to compliment Rick on his observation regarding the similarities between the box and the ladder.
Michael. I am guilty of forgetting not everyone has the same info in front of them as well, it is easy to do. The main reason I discount any of Samuelsohn's wood ending up in the kidnap ladder is because he is ripping and planing these pieces to width. The ladder rails, except 16, are s4s lumber, meaning they were processed through a 4 head planer to their final dimensions. That is easy to identify. Why the wood order? I still think we have to look at the entire story for an answer or a determination. The excessive cost of this simple order cannot be dismissed, especially considering the economic environment of the depression. How do we reconcile this and the rather bizarre action of Hauptmann the carpenter going to Samuelsohn the cabinetmaker for such a simple task? Rick asked how Samuelsohn could have linked his wood with the kidnapping so soon. I don't know exactly when this occurred, but I can see it happening after the ransom negotiations. It wouldn't be hard to figure out once the action moved to your backyard that the order you filled has similarities to the ladder pictured and drawn in the papers. But now we have Hauptmann coming back several times to visit Samuelsohn and order a cabinet for his own apartment?? How did that go?; "Hey mister you remember me? That wood worked out so gut for that ladder I want you to make me a cabinet. We warn you for making anyding public or for the polise" Now speed ahead 2 years and Samuelsohn has an abrupt change of heart and identifies wood from the ladder as his. How is that? There are simply too many discrepancies in this story.
If you are convinced this story is factual and want some ideas on what the purpose of the wood order was I will work on some possibilities.
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Post by rick3 on May 31, 2006 11:17:38 GMT -5
kevin...to answer your questions we will have to construct our own "starter timeline" and fill in the gaps later:
Feb 20th 1932....BRH and mystery woman #1 brings the wood order to AS's shop and pays $5
Feb 27th 1932.....two unknown young men known only to AS, BRH and SC pick up ladder wood and pay remaining $9
March 25? 1932/ Jafsie has Abraham Samuelsohn make the five-ply veener box with a casement lock for $3 bucks/ takes 3 days.
September 1933......BOI Agents Thomas F. Sisk and JJ Manning begin poking holes in the tall tales told by Jafsie about....the ransom box. Somehow S & K stumble on the lie that Frank Perimi was "dead" in Feb 32.....and either pressure Condon to tell the truth or / find AS by accident. AS admits to making the box for $3 bucks.
Sept 20-Dec 1934....BRH arrested, AS identifies him in a lineup 3 times/ tells the cops and prosecution about the 2 young men and who they are? Lets say, Fisch, or Baker, or Leipold or Geissler or Krippendorf?
January 14-15th NYTimes....Headlines: Ladder "Builder" Not To Be Called.... and Carpenter Tells Story...Insists It Was BRH that Had Him Build the Ladder
Jan-Mar1935...DHReilly asks in the Trial of the Century "Dr. Condon has not produced the maker of the box" Why Not?
2004....Gardner and the Case that Never Dies
"every journey begins wth the first step"
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 31, 2006 14:08:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the time line Rick! When was the first replica made by Samuelsohn and why? I think there was a replica built for the NJSP re-enactment in the spring of 32. I have a few more questions regarding this story. How is it that there was a receipt from Samuelsohn in the Hoffman files ( the one that was posted by antlerbones)? why is this receipt available and not the one for the 4 4ft pcs of pine, or the job for Hauptmann & Co., or the NJSP ? Rick, I am glad you mentioned the ransom box ordered by Condon. As you say it took about 3 days and cost about $3. Once again compare that piece of joinery with the $14 cost for simple boards. I get the feeling that this cost issue is being downplayed but this story can't go much further until that excessive pricing can be explained, as it is obvious that it is either incorrect or related to much more work. One thought I had regarding Samuelsohn's ladder identification is that he was being asked to identify a copy, not the original. That may have been done as a precaution from defense attempts to confuse the actual ladder with one of the replicas. Just a thought, now back to the spraybooth.
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Post by rick3 on May 31, 2006 15:17:06 GMT -5
Kevin.....
1. First off AS gets found by the B-O-X, not by any ladder I-D/
2. AS is discovered by the BOI, not the NJSP or NYSP, like American Idol.
3. Con-don tries to conceal AS under the quise of Frank Peremi. Con-don tries to lie his way aways from AS...but Frank var tote. And while we are on Frank, there is Frank Jr (alive) and Sr (dead)
4. You and I don't have any dates for ladder replicates. Heck we dont have any dates for ransom box replicates either. And the number of each keeps changing 2, maybe 3?
5. Lloyd Gardner must have found the reports of Sisk and Manning (S&M)--but if they had the youngs mans names in them then we should assume that would have been "told, released, made public"! right
6. Why would any particular reciept be any more valid than any other reciept? Unless of course it was signed by BRH and had Rail 16 on it? Just like that: Rail 16 = $1.25 for planing and chiseling
7. Maybe after the fact, Hoffman and folks were just happy to get any olde AS receipt? As an example ? Maybe we still have the wrong one? Or not the ladder (?) one.
8. Good point Kevin, if they make enough "replicates" noone will ever know which one was left at Highfields/ Like a shell game>
9. Call me surprized if Samuelsohn makes any ladder reps in 1932?
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Post by susancandy on May 31, 2006 21:36:24 GMT -5
TIME LINE REVISED
Feb. 20, 1932 Hauptmann comes into AS shop and orders wood cut to his drawing specifications, leaves drawing, $5.00 deposit, takes a receipt and leaves with youngish woman he came in with Feb 23, 1932 Two other men, non disclosed, come in and lay cut pieces of wood out on floor and tell AS that several are cut incorrectly, please recut Feb 25, 1932 Same two men come in and pick up ladder wood, 24 pieces in all, take drawing from AS, pay him $9.00 and leave
March 1, 1932 Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr. is kidnapped Later March, 1932 JFC comes in and orders a five ply wood box with a lock, which he pays $3.00 for April 2, 1932 Box w/ $50,000.00 is put in St. Raymonds cemetery(box never recovered) May 12, 1932 Baby found by William Allen, 4 1/2 miles from Hopewell, near Mt. Rose, New Jersey in Mercer County late May, 1934 Hauptmann comes back into AS shop for a small woodworking job July 5, 1934 Hauptmann comes back for cabinet work, a two hour job and asks AS to go out with him, AS declines, RBH chides him, but leaves Sept 19,1934 Hauptmann taken into custody by police after being caught passing a gold certificate Sept. 26, 1934 AS is taken to Alpine, NJ to the training school to look at ladder and identify it - he identifies some of the uprights, says that only some of the small pieces are ones he sold and states that the lumber has been recut since he sold it He also stated that there were 24 pieces in all and 3 dowel sticks and told where he bought the lumber and the dowel sticks.
In 1932 AS had been a woodworker for 38 years, he would definitely know his lumber and his marks. They are also on all the furniture that he made. I have it here. Yes, he made duplicates of the ladder and the a duplicate of the ransom box, so what. The State of NJ needed them and if he had not cut the pieces of wood for the ladder how would he know how to make the ladder, He certainly was not told by the NJ police. The ransom box was never recovered so speculate away. I will say nothing about it now. All I ask is why do you guys make it so difficult when it really is very simple.
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Post by rita on May 31, 2006 22:22:38 GMT -5
Certain individuals are still trying to invent the light bulb. If they were told of threats and sniping events that took place at that time related to events that caused the kidnap they would want newsreel coverage? If they were told that part of world history was changed by the racketeer aided politically motivated kidnap, they would ask in which history book this could be found?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 1, 2006 6:09:49 GMT -5
A Samuelsohn, master cabinetmaker makes an error on something this simple? Please will someone explain what makes this job worth so much money.
When exactly in this "time line" does A. Samuelsohn ; A) Realize he had provided the kidnapper with wood B) Constructs the first replica
Yet he is mistaken on the species? I have only been a woodworker for 30 years and I can say that there is no way I could identify a stick of wood that passed before me even 3 months prior unless I made some unique mark on it. Where are these marks on the kidnap ladder? Also. according to my records the kidnap ladder was at West Trenton not Alpine on 9/26/34. If anyone has any info regarding this please let us know.
Cutting 24 pcs of wood doesn't require the information needed to layout the ladder and construct it. How would you know the rung spacing on the first section for example?
I really have no interest in making things more difficult, there are enough people doing that. But at the same time when you are being asked to fit a square peg into a round hole, well it gets difficult. I don't profess to even begin to understand this story but I do do that certain elements of it are simply incorrect. A Samuelsohn could not have identified the actual kidnap ladder as containing wood he supplied 2 yrs after the fact. The wood that that ladder is comprised of simply does not correspond to the wood Samuelsohn re-sawed in his shop, period. Contact any wood specialist and the answer will be the same. It just doesn't work.
I agree, why the need to re-invent history?
Susan, one last thing. I would actually like to find this whole story regarding Mr Samuelsohn to be true, Why? Well for one, I feel a natural respect toward him as a master cabinetmaker and woodworker. There was a time when I had a similar feeling toward Hauptmann, until I realized he was about something else. Second, because the story of Hauptmann, a trained carpenter, going to a cabinetmaker and paying a kings ransom for a job he could easily accomplish himself and then having it picked up by others could validate my own theory which started this thread in the first place. It would also indicate that upon the arrest of Hauptmann, Mr. Samuelsohn was free from danger.
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Post by susancandy on Jun 1, 2006 23:18:47 GMT -5
Kevkon, read my post. He had a sketch, Hauptmann brought one in with him. I don't know where it is now, but I have my suspicions. AS did not make a mistake, the specifications were off and that is documented. Once again, I will say on AS's furniture I have pencil marks and identifying marks, ON ALL THE PIECES OF MY FURNITURE. He told his story, he never wavered, never told a different one and stated very positively that the ladder he saw in Trenton had some of the pieces he cut, but not all and that even the ones he had cut had been recut. It takes a master craftsman to be able to identify that. Small story on this: I have been in diamonds for the last 43 years. I learned to tell a diamond from a fake with my own two eyes. Today, a diamond merchant of 30 years old and younger cannot tell a CZ from a diamond unless they have a machine that tells them. I am sure you are not that kind of woodworker. You certainly must know your work, even after you have sold it or given it away. I can go into anyone of the Synagogues where I live and pick out the Torah sticks that AS made for those Torahs. He had a style as I am sure you do. Stop making it so complicated. It isn't. Stop looking for things that don't exist. Sometimes the simple explanation is the true one, not always, but sometimes. I know AS's marks, where they are how he worked. I even work with his electric sander and I am not a wood worker. I am an artistic person but in no way can I compare with my grandfather, but I sure can put together a beautiful platinum custom diamond ring. Come on lets discuss something that makes some sense. He was not safe even after RBH arrest. He got some death threats and the house was robbed. I am sure if someone cares to research it there is a police report in the Bronx sometime in 1935 for that robbery. I just don't have the time to do it now. Give me something else we can talk about about AS. sc
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Post by Michael on Jun 2, 2006 5:58:37 GMT -5
Are you absolutely sure about this?
I am not dismissing it but no one found it suspicious so we have nothing to look at now.
I've offered an opinion on this above in one of my other posts.
Again we have (3) options. You either believe Samuelsohn was lying, telling the truth, or mistaken. If he is lying then we were all fooled and he didn't build the ransom box.... I don't see anything but the truth coming from him so I take the position of working with his story from a truthful yet reluctant source.
This isn't the case. He would have told the FBI everything if they promised him protection. He was afraid. I am quite sure he knew or suspected he built the ransom box too but never came forward until they found him.
I honestly don't see any. Now combine this with his reluctance to come forward, that he built the ransom box, and he would not change his story (as happened so many times) by buckling under the pressure of the Authorities.
I believe he was convinced that what he said was true. I also believe there was a bit of a language problem and I don't rule out any possibility concerning mistakes made in "good faith." However, we must look at the timing, the design, and the mistaken identity of Hauptmann - not once - but multiple times by someone who was afraid to come forward.
Again, for me, there is something to this of value and it could be bigger then it appears at face value.
I have been researching for the time-line and can't come up with these exact dates. "A" isn't recorded in the documentation I have so in reality, the only person who could know this would be Susan or possibly another family member. "B" has been causing me trouble as well. I have documentation concerning "replica" ladders but I hesitate to label any of them Samuelsohn's due to the fact the NJSP made some, and Koehler made at least one too.
I believe Mark found (2) replicas in the warehouse and we know Susan has one at home. However, Samuelsohn made (3) replicas, so I don't want to speculate that the one she has came from the NJSP rather then the NYPD or FBI.
Hard to say. We may have to disassemble the ladder in order to find them but the NJSP will never allow it.
It was at the "Training School" or what is now the NJSP Headquarters.
I think without documentation, wood-working skill, or a keen sense of recollection this question posed to Susan is a bit unfair. I don't see how she could answer the question yet it doesn't make what she says wrong. However, I do see why you ask and understand the issues and problems you are grappling with. I agree its necessary to iron this stuff out and I thank Susan for coming here to help us out by giving us "insider information" we would never have known about.
If Rick and Susan don't mind, I will be using some of their information and time-lines to create my own that I have been working on.
It won't be anything earth-shattering but I'll do my best.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 2, 2006 8:20:49 GMT -5
Susan, I hope you can understand my dilemma regarding the Samuelsohn affair. I must admit that I have a prejudice toward this issue. I simply can not or will not believe that your grandfather was a liar , dishonest, or involved in the crime. That's probably due to a professional regard on my part as well as a desire to believe it. I also have the sense that Michael is being a bit less critical then usual as well ( that response regarding the excessive wood cost was very uncharacteristic of you). That being said let me at the same time say that this prejudice on my part is cause for quite some consternation. You have repeatedly stated that there is no need to complicate this affair. Yet the very nature of it does complicate matters and there is no getting around that. Here we have a carpenter, Hauptmann, going to a cabinetmaker for an order of wood that could be readily purchased at any lumberyard ( and for a considerable less cost). I know Michael has said that Hauptmann wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but is he that dumb? Your Grandfather is given a drawing of this wood order and orders 4 14'long boards of wider width. He then rips these boards down and planes them to the readily available 3 5/8" width and then cross cuts some of the pieces to end up with the 24 individual boards requested. Now right away we must ask why 24 boards and not 17? Michael you asked if I was positive about the identification of the wood on the actual ladder and why it couldn't have come from Samuelsohn. Yes, because the rotary heads of a 4 head planer used to produce standard dimensional lumber is readily and easily identifiable and is vastly different from a board re-sawn and planed by a cabinetmaker even if he used a long bed jointer. That means that the only wood that could possibly have come from Samuelsohn is rail 16 and the rungs. But we know rail 16 was a low grade yellow pine board ripped and hand planed on both edges. This grade of yellow pine is almost exclusively produced for t&g sub flooring and sheathing. That leaves the Ponderosa Pine rungs as the only candidates. Susan you mentioned a craftsman's ability to recognize his work and you are correct. I can recognize work I created 30 years ago. But that is due to the unique construction and work involved ( and mistakes as well!), not the wood itself.Could you, for example, recognize a bunch of ordinary industrial grade diamonds 2 yrs after you sold them? Here we are talking about clear pine which has been handled and stained with silver nitrate. The very nature of clear wood makes it non- descript with the exception of some exotic or figured woods. There is no possible way that anyone could look at those pine rungs and identify them, they are simply too non-descript. This leaves us with the" marks" that keep being referred to. Where are they? Every inch of this ladder has been inspected and photographed ad nauseum. The only marks I have ever seen or heard referenced are some marks for the rung mortises. There appears to be a trace of a mortise or wood gauge mark and some pencil marks. All of these are common and have no unique characteristics. Then we have this even more bizarre episode of Samuelsohn doing a cabinet job for Hauptmann's apartment (kitchen?). Now I am not clear on this point; was your grandfather aware that Hauptmann and the wood he supplied him were possibly connected to the kidnapping at this time? Was Hauptmann so intimidating of a character that the very thought of revealing his identity to the police was unthinkable? By your time line this fear subsided at some point after Hauptmann's arrest so Samuelsohn obviously was not afraid of any gang still at large. That would more or less indicate he felt Hauptmann was the only participant in the kidnapping. So Susan I hope you can understand my dilemma involving this story. I also hope you will continue to share information so we can all make some sense of it. I have been going over and over it in an attempt to explain it, but every idea I arrive at has major drawbacks. One , for example was the idea that Hauptmann ordered this wood for a legitimate renovation job he was engaged in and then used the existing wood he replaced for the ladder. That theory has a lot of pitfalls, though. Rememeber, however, that 1" x 4" boards have many uses and that the rail lengths, 6'-8 3/4" just happens to correspond with door casing (trim) and jambs.
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Post by Michael on Jun 2, 2006 19:40:56 GMT -5
At least now it can be said that I am taking it easy on a position that directly involves Hauptmann. ;D In all seriousness, I do agree this job was an expensive one but I have less of an issue with it because the Police didn't seem to have one. And reading the reports of the 26th they seemed damned skeptical so why aren't they making a point of the price? Anyway that's why I hold the position I do concerning this point.
Maybe I'm not on the same page here so bear with me....
We have to remember those pieces he turned over were from the smaller pieces and these were cut differently. Additionally, and this is where I may be confused, Koehler claimed rails 12 & 13 were planed with an eight-knife cylinders and six-knife side heads.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jun 3, 2006 9:22:07 GMT -5
I think you are just afraid of being called a vulture ;D ;D
But the fact that we have no report of police skepticism over the pricing doesn't change the fact. I mean the the whole basis for our continued interest in this case is the belief that many aspects of it and evidence were ignored or dismissed. Here we have a story of a cabinetmaker supplying the wrong wood, the wrong amount of wood, and all for the wrong price. Any one of those items should raise red flags. I guess it is my nature or training to put a high priority on details. I am reminded of a piece of furniture in the Dupont collection which was regarded by expert after expert to be an authentic 17th century piece. One person had doubts and had the piece x-rayed. Turned out that hole drilled in it had the tell tale markings of a 20th century twist drill. End of story.
Wood processed by commercial mills to be sold as standard dimensional lumber and boards are typically ripped to a "rough size" and then fed into a 4 head planer/molder. The 4 heads may be equipped with a varying amount of blades and revolve at a varying amount of speeds. At the same time the rate of feed may also be variable. These variations are due to the particular machine, the pulley of gear sizes and operator controls. Once set , however, the wood will be fed at a uniform rate and the cutting knives will strike the wood at a uniform rate. There can be some slight variation s due to the power supply and the depth of cut. On the other hand, wood that is produced to dimensional size ( in this case 13/16" x 3 5/8" or what is referred to as a 1" x 4") by a cabinetmaker would be ripped and then planed to final size. This planing would be accomplished by either a hand plane ( usually a long plane called a jointer plane) or if the shop is so equipped, a long bed jointer which is power driven. In either case the resulting wood edge will be markedly different from the industrial 4 head planer/ molder. So in ripping and planing those 1" x 10"s or 1" x 8"s Samuelsohn would end up with a board that has a mill finish on at least two sides and probably the third as well. But the side or edge that he ripped and planed ( if he did plane it which would not be absolutely necessary) would be completely different. It is like the rifling marks from two entirely different guns.
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