metje
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Post by metje on May 9, 2020 9:32:55 GMT -5
I would also add that an observant Jew would be prohibited from attending occult places like the Temple of Divine Power, the spiritual place of mediums Peter and Mary. (Remember the Od Testament story of the so-called Witch of Endor who practiced illegally in the Kingdom of Israel.) If Fisch had any relationship with Peter or Mary, or if he attended services there, it would have been a serious violation of orthodox practices. Yet he was away from home with no one watching, and if he did attend services there he would be careful not to advertise his actions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 12:15:13 GMT -5
I would also add that an observant Jew would be prohibited from attending occult places like the Temple of Divine Power, the spiritual place of mediums Peter and Mary. (Remember the Od Testament story of the so-called Witch of Endor who practiced illegally in the Kingdom of Israel.) If Fisch had any relationship with Peter or Mary, or if he attended services there, it would have been a serious violation of orthodox practices. Yet he was away from home with no one watching, and if he did attend services there he would be careful not to advertise his actions. From what I have read, Peter and Mary never claimed Fisch attended their church. The claim by Peter, I believe it was, was that Violet Sharp had attended there at times. Because of the numerous coincidences that occurred in that area of 127th Street, one of which was Fisch living across the street for the Temple of Divine Power in 1932-33, it might have just been a rumor that started about Fisch going to Birritella's church. Your opening sentence from your post above concerning observant Jews reminded me about something that came up in a document I have about Fisch. When NJ Assistant Attorney General Robert Peacock was interviewing Charles Schleser on December 17, 1934 the following info about Fisch was brought out by Schleser. Schlesser credits Carl Henkel with sharing it with him. Henkel said: "It is peculiar-here is a man who was so pious about his religion at the time I lived with him-Uhlig, Fisch and myself, you know we lived together for years-every morning he got up at five o'clock and he was praying for a solid hour and he put the leather strap around his hand and the shawl above his shoulders and he was praying for one solid hour and he done that every morning and every night-"The above sounds like a religious ritual for sure. Whether Fisch continued to do this the whole time he was in America, I cannot say for certain. I do know that I believe it was Henna Fisch who mentioned that one of the items her brother had brought with him from America was a shawl. This pious side of Fisch is something I was never aware of until I came across this document at the archives. If Fisch had ever set foot in the Temple of Divine Power, I don't think it would have had anything to do with worship.
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Post by hurtelable on May 9, 2020 13:58:43 GMT -5
Please do so, amy35. Was the Chammitzer report in the Hauptmann trial record, perhaps as a State exhibit?
There's another issue possibly involved here too. Although the Nazi regime didn't officially promulgate its discriminatory Nuremberg Laws until 1935, they may have been already spreading the word that they didn't approve of the idea of non-Jewish doctors treating Jewish patients or Jewish doctors treating non-Jewish patients. So was Dr. Chammitzer Jewish or not?
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Post by hurtelable on May 9, 2020 14:21:37 GMT -5
From everything I have read, seen or heard about Fisch, he was NOT an orthodox Jew, just like the large majority of the well-assimilated Jews in Germany during this time frame. Schleser was NOT a man who was known for his honesty, so he could have been making this stuff up just to help out the prosecution in the Hauptmann case and thereby help himself skirt the law on other issues.
As for Fisch, as far as I know, he never was photographed or filmed wearing a skullcap, never was known to belong to a Jewish congregation nor known to attend a synagogue, never had any occasions to abstain from certain activities to observe the Sabbath, and quite frequently had close social interactions with non-Jews, including women. All these factors suggest that he was a secular Jew.
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Post by Sue on May 9, 2020 14:41:22 GMT -5
Yes, Amy.
That would be great to put Dr. Chammiter's medical report permanently on the board.
Joe: I can understand Fisch taking a ship back to Germany to be comforted by his family.
Hurtelable: Maybe Fisch should have stayed put in New York.
Did the trip to Germany on the SS Manhattan do him in?
It's not a sharp picture, but the photo in Scaduto's book of Isidor Fisch and Henry Uhlig (opposite page 320) in a lounge aboard the Manhattan may be interpreted as a sick and spaced-out Isidor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 18:32:01 GMT -5
Was the Chammitzer report in the Hauptmann trial record, perhaps as a State exhibit? So was Dr. Chammitzer Jewish or not? The medical report I will post was not a State Exhibit so it is not in the Trial record. I do not know if Dr. Chammitzer was Jewish or not. I don't know if this was ever a consideration by Fisch when he received medical treatment in America. I see your point though about Nazi control of Germany so that could very well have entered into Fisch's choice of a doctor to treat him in Germany.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 18:59:22 GMT -5
Yes, Amy. That would be great to put Dr. Chammiter's medical report permanently on the board. I do need to correct myself here. The report I am posting is the hospital medical report on Fisch. Dr. Chammitzer is the referring physician in this report. imgur.com/Jqrev2p Page 1 imgur.com/dbxVllt Page 2 imgur.com/mwT5bpo Page 3 Fisch really was very sick. Fisch was advised by Dr. August Spiegel on November 4, 1933, who had been treating Fisch for TB, and advised Fisch against making that trip to Germany. He wanted Fisch to go to the hospital. Fisch chose not to. Instead he made that trip to Germany. Scaduto has some good pictures that I have not seen in other publications, two of them being ones you have called attention to on page 320. I don't know who his source was for these pictures. Maybe the NYPD records?
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Post by Sue on May 9, 2020 19:08:36 GMT -5
Thank you for posting the report, Amy!
I think Scadudo was a police reporter for the New York Post.
He may have had access to many photos not seen elsewhere.
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Post by Sue on May 9, 2020 19:36:24 GMT -5
Also, Amy, I wonder if Isidor Fisch, being a furrier, contracted tuberculosis from being exposed to animal pelts.
There is a condition known as "Furrier's Lung."
Fisch was young when he died; he did not reach his 30th birthday.
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metje
Detective
Posts: 174
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Post by metje on May 10, 2020 6:09:36 GMT -5
Why is the medical report on Fisch written in English and not German? Presumably Fisch was hospitalized in Leipzig, Germany, where the report originated.
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Post by hurtelable on May 10, 2020 7:17:56 GMT -5
Also, Amy, I wonder if Isidor Fisch, being a furrier, contracted tuberculosis from being exposed to animal pelts. There is a condition known as "Furrier's Lung." Fisch was young when he died; he did not reach his 30th birthday. Tuberculosis is NOT transmitted by animal furs. It is transmitted by human droplets emitted by one person and inhaled by another. Fortunately, only a small percentage of people so exposed ever manifest any signs of infection.
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Post by hurtelable on May 10, 2020 8:35:19 GMT -5
Why is the medical report on Fisch written in English and not German? Presumably Fisch was hospitalized in Leipzig, Germany, where the report originated. The posted medical report would seem to be a translation from the original German into English. This begs the question as to why the need for a translation. Intuitively it would seem as if the translation was done at the request of someone in the United States who had need for the document, perhaps as a substitute for a death certificate, perhaps in connection with the Hauptmann trial. Separately, on the hospital report, there is a reference to Fisch having one brother and ONE sister. IIRC, it would seem as if TWO sisters were shown in the film about the Fisch family arrival in the US for the Hauptmann trial. Can someone please clear up this discrepancy?
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metje
Detective
Posts: 174
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Post by metje on May 10, 2020 13:44:05 GMT -5
On the photos taken of the group at the trial, there were two women from the Fisch family invited along with Pinkus, Isidor's brother. One woman was Hanna, Isidor's sister who testified at the trial. The other young woman is Czerna, wife of Pinkus Fisch. A third woman, in uniform, is the nurse who attended Isidor during his final hours. Presumably she was there to testify concerning Isidor's medical condition in case there were any questions needed to verify his illness and death.
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Post by hurtelable on May 10, 2020 13:49:45 GMT -5
On the photos taken of the group at the trial, there were two women from the Fisch family invited along with Pinkus, Isidor's brother. One woman was Hanna, Isidor's sister who testified at the trial. The other young woman is Czerna, wife of Pinkus Fisch. A third woman, in uniform, is the nurse who attended Isidor during his final hours. Presumably she was there to testify concerning Isidor's medical condition in case there were any questions needed to verify his illness and death. Thanks, metje. This clarifies it. One of the women who I thought was Isidor's sister was his sister-in-law.
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Post by Michael on May 12, 2020 10:35:03 GMT -5
Why is the medical report on Fisch written in English and not German? Presumably Fisch was hospitalized in Leipzig, Germany, where the report originated. Many of the documents at the NJSP have both the German and the English translations of these documents. Some only have the English version. As I've mentioned in the past, we are at the mercy of the translators when it comes to this. Siglinde once pointed out a mistake in translation concerning Pinkus Fisch's letter head so that's always a possibility. To complement Amy's post, here is a copy of the burial permit: imgur.com/ywWmmJm
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Post by roger gross on Jun 7, 2020 14:33:11 GMT -5
Hello, may I ask is this a group that regularly discusses Lindbergh and the Kidnapping?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 15:02:15 GMT -5
Hello Roger,
Yes, this board actively discusses the Lindbergh kidnapping case and those attached to the case. Please feel free to join in with comments or questions. I encourage you to join to get the best benefit from this board as many documents and materials get posted that can only be viewed when you are a member.
I look forward to what you have to share on this board.
Amy
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