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Post by Michael on Jul 27, 2018 11:57:58 GMT -5
mike, then why did the fbi say in there files that they wernt conclusive that's all im asking The Dark Corners V2, Pages 264-283. thanks for the kind words but some of the stuff I have the museum already has. I havnt seen another liberty magazine place card yet I bought it a long time ago havnt seen another one since. they put it the window of a store to advertise whats in the next issue. its about 10 by 14 inches and mine says in this issue jafsie talks about the ransom money I've only ever seen a picture of one in a window display from that time-frame. That one had Condon and the Ladder in it. I've never actually seen a real one so its definitely a rare item. Sam would be the guy I'd ask about it, or possibly Mark. The problem is this stuff is worth a lot to "us" but most of us don't have any real money, and those that do aren't interested. So you'll most likely be left holding something you know is worth money or selling it cheap. Unfortunately, thats how it works although in your case I hope I'm wrong.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 27, 2018 12:14:56 GMT -5
The man resembling Fisch with the five dollar bills is in the book, "TOP SECRETa: FBI FILES AND THE LINDBERGH BABY KIDNAPPING," Ido not have that book - at another location. The report was placed by a cashier at a train station where the man tried to exchange them.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 27, 2018 20:27:13 GMT -5
To Michael and All:
The Garrett Schenk / J. J. Devine "kidnapping" episode (V. 2, pp.507-511) is very interesting. Never heard of this stuff before; the only other kidnapping I had heard of secondary to the LKC was that of Paul Wendel.
The key questions about this include:
(1) Who was Garrett Schenk and do you think his observations of the two men and three cars on the Mt. Rose Rd. several days before the child's corpse was discovered in the vicinity were credible?
(2) When did Schenk first report these observations to authorities and what was their initial reaction to him?
(3) How did Devine even know of Schenk at the time he purportedly kidnapped him and drove him (several hundred miles) to Johnstown, PA?
(4) What would have been Devine's motive for kidnapping Schenk and keeping him against his will for several months?
(5) How much attention did Schenk and Devine receive in the newspapers of the time?
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Post by Michael on Jul 28, 2018 7:30:00 GMT -5
The man resembling Fisch with the five dollar bills is in the book, "TOP SECRETa: FBI FILES AND THE LINDBERGH BABY KIDNAPPING," Ido not have that book - at another location. The report was placed by a cashier at a train station where the man tried to exchange them. If its in this book it should be mentioned in the FBI Summary. What came to mind was the Burlesque but that traced back to a topic xjd brought up and did not mention a description. I don't remember the previous discussion on this. If you can find something/remember something else I should be able to look it up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 7:51:39 GMT -5
The man resembling Fisch with the five dollar bills is in the book, "TOP SECRETa: FBI FILES AND THE LINDBERGH BABY KIDNAPPING," Ido not have that book - at another location. The report was placed by a cashier at a train station where the man tried to exchange them. Is this the incident you are referring to Jack: lindberghkidnap.proboards.com/thread/757/penn-station-incident
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jul 28, 2018 10:16:15 GMT -5
The man resembling Fisch with the five dollar bills is in the book, "TOP SECRETa: FBI FILES AND THE LINDBERGH BABY KIDNAPPING," Ido not have that book - at another location. The report was placed by a cashier at a train station where the man tried to exchange them. Jack, that piece of information out of the FBI Files has always interested me in light of the description given by Cashier James MacWhan to be so in line with that of Isidor Fisch. In fact, MacWhan didn't know if it was this guy who passed one of the $5 ransom bills that came out of the Pennsylvania Reading Station, because he basically dismissed him, saying he could only exchange any bills if they were "good." He watched the fellow, who had a bunch of $5's he wanted to exchange, walk out the same way he came in, without going to another counter. I also remember this account well, because one of the guys I used to work with was born on the same day, November 21, 1933. Interesting too, that Fisch left for Germany about two weeks later, so was this a case of trying to dispose of as much ransom money as possible for spending cash abroad?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jul 28, 2018 10:35:27 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by Michael on Jul 28, 2018 12:05:47 GMT -5
The Garrett Schenk / J. J. Devine "kidnapping" episode (V. 2, pp.507-511) is very interesting. Never heard of this stuff before; the only other kidnapping I had heard of secondary to the LKC was that of Paul Wendel. 1. He was a fish salesman in business with Partick Lane and lived with him on the night of the kidnapping. He was definitely in a position to make this observation, however, while I find what he saw worthy of consideration there's nothing else to back it up. 2. The NJSP never spoke with him prior to his being removed from the State and the only one of record who did (that I know of) was Devine. Once he returned his main goal was to get police to listen to the fact he'd been kidnapped and removed from the State against his will. He found out quick that they did not care about it. 3. Devine was conducting his own private investigation. His original position was that Lindbergh was involved and that several Locals assisted. Devine avoided the NJSP, and interviewed all of the Locals to include Schenck. Reporters backed up his claim that weeks prior to the discovery of the corpse he predicted it would be found within 5 miles of Highfields. 4. To get the entire story which he believed Schenck knew, and to keep the NJSP away from him because he believed they were assisting Lindbergh in covering his involvement up. 5. Devine was eventually charged in PA and there was a trial. I've sought the transcripts but to this day have never seen them. I do have affidavits and statments but not the actual testimony. That's when it was in the newspapers.
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Post by Michael on Jul 28, 2018 12:38:30 GMT -5
I was able to find Agent Manning's November 27, 1933 on this. Unfortunately it is word for word for what's in the Summary about this so it adds nothing new.
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geld
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Post by geld on Aug 25, 2018 17:01:21 GMT -5
All this talk about the RANSOM BOX, was or was not a photo taken?. If not why?
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Post by Michael on Aug 26, 2018 7:01:04 GMT -5
All this talk about the RANSOM BOX, was or was not a photo taken?. If not why? There was never a picture of the original for obvious reasons. Samuelsohn built a replica for the NJSP (see footnote #864 V2). The funny thing is that while all of Samuesohn's wood and other items are still in the crates at the NJSP that box is not. It could be that someone kept it as a souvenir, or it may have been returned to him. I do know his family has a replica so it could be the original replica or he may have built another one. I know they are working on a book about his role in the case which makes it likely we could find out. There was a picture of a box in Liberty and its the only one I've ever seen. Someone included it in an enclosure that came with a communication sent to Governor Hoffman:
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geld
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Post by geld on Aug 26, 2018 13:21:48 GMT -5
This is what I am talking about:when all the princiables were at Condon's house assembling the stacks of money and the box NO ONE THOUGHT ABOUT TAKING A PHOTO!! ??
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Post by Michael on Aug 26, 2018 14:43:03 GMT -5
This is what I am talking about:when all the princiables were at Condon's house assembling the stacks of money and the box NO ONE THOUGHT ABOUT TAKING A PHOTO!! ?? So what do you think? Is everyone starting to see the bigger picture? We have Lindbergh's account of Condon's movements/actions and the Look-Out's movements/actions at Saint Raymonds. We have Condon's bogus explanations. We have Uebel's eyewitness account. We have Condon lying about the box. We have Condon avoiding Samuelsohn and pretending not to know who built that box. So once police finally get to him this whole thing should have blown up.
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Post by trojanusc on Aug 26, 2018 16:01:44 GMT -5
All this talk about the RANSOM BOX, was or was not a photo taken?. If not why? There was never a picture of the original for obvious reasons. Samuelsohn built a replica for the NJSP (see footnote #864 V2). The funny thing is that while all of Samuesohn's wood and other items are still in the crates at the NJSP that box is not. It could be that someone kept it as a souvenir, or it may have been returned to him. I do know his family has a replica so it could be the original replica or he may have built another one. I know they are working on a book about his role in the case which makes it likely we could find out. There was a picture of a box in Liberty and its the only one I've ever seen. Someone included it in an enclosure that came with a communication sent to Governor Hoffman: Isn't there a duplicate box on display at the NJSP museum? What's the provenance of that box?
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Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2018 6:01:17 GMT -5
Isn't there a duplicate box on display at the NJSP museum? What's the provenance of that box? Unfortunately there isn't. From all accounts Samuelsohn made both the original and the replica. There are some crates stored off-site that Mark had opened some years ago. Inside there was material and items marked " A. Samuelsohn 3037 Webster Ave., Bronx, N. Y. Tel. SEdgwick 3-9873" but there was no duplicate ransom box among these items in any crate. Since the family has one it most likely was returned to them.
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Post by trojanusc on Aug 27, 2018 15:05:09 GMT -5
Isn't there a duplicate box on display at the NJSP museum? What's the provenance of that box? Unfortunately there isn't. From all accounts Samuelsohn made both the original and the replica. There are some crates stored off-site that Mark had opened some years ago. Inside there was material and items marked " A. Samuelsohn 3037 Webster Ave., Bronx, N. Y. Tel. SEdgwick 3-9873" but there was no duplicate ransom box among these items in any crate. Since the family has one it most likely was returned to them. What is this box then? Just similar?
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Post by Michael on Aug 27, 2018 18:13:32 GMT -5
What is this box then? Just similar? Wow, I guess I need to check out the display every once in a while!!! Okay, I got in touch with Mark who told me this replica ransom box was among the Hicks materials which were donated to the Archives. Thanks for pointing this out!
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Post by Michael on Aug 28, 2018 7:42:01 GMT -5
Also, for those who may go to the Museum/Archives Hautpmann's trunk is in the display case as well. I know this because during my last visit I wanted to look more closely at it again but could not because it had been moved there. I did so once before, but sometimes I want to re-check myself in case I missed something. I know I mentioned this previously, probably years ago by now, but there was a hint that there was trunk/box that Hauptmann owned with a secret compartment in it that the police had "missed." That trunk does not have a "false bottom" like one would suspect. But I began to think it might be something really small as opposed to the "safes" I am used to finding so I wanted to revisit it. Also, police were looking for a spot like this and had Koehler specifically examine the Fancy Box that police had seized from the apartment. He found no false bottom and that it was NOT the size of the Ransom Box. So it could be that it became known the police were looking for a hidden compartment and this fact morphed into one where it existed and they could not find it. Hard to say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 8:24:39 GMT -5
Also, police were looking for a spot like this and had Koehler specifically examine the Fancy Box that police had seized from the apartment. He found no false bottom and that it was NOT the size of the Ransom Box. So it could be that it became known the police were looking for a hidden compartment and this fact morphed into one where it existed and they could not find it. Hard to say. This reminded me of an article I had read a while back so I went and found it in my files. A newspaper report printed something about a hidden locker that was found in the apartment closet where the serial numbers were written on the closet door. Since I never saw such a "find" being talked about in any books written on the case, I just filed the story and forgot about it. I don't know how stories like this get wings but here is what was being reported. It is an excerpt from a much larger story on the case and was published Sept. 26, 1934. For what it is worth:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 21:48:00 GMT -5
Michael,
In TDC Volume 2, Chapter 7 you talk about Hauptmann's California trip in 1931. On page 436, you make the following interesting observation:
"However, it does seem to indicate that he was taking this trip at that time as a sort of "bucket list" event. Not a good sign to anyone who may believe Hauptmann was completely innocent. But, if its an indicator of guilt, then it shows a commitment to the crime - at that very point in time."
I think this is a very solid observation. I say this because of something I recently read in an October, 1934 affidavit given by Karl Arnold, a German who had a shoemaker business in New York for some years and he knew both Hans Kloppenburg and Richard Hauptmann. Mr. Arnold had spoke with Hans sometime after he had returned from the California trip and that Hans Kloppenburg had told him that while he (Kloppenburg) was on the California Trip with the Hauptmanns, Richard had let something slip during a conversation indicating that there was something very heavy on his mind and it would be too bad if they were to catch him.
Taking that California trip was something Hauptmann had put off doing several times in the past. Perhaps BRH really did go this time, 1931, because he couldn't be sure his future would provide him another opportunity to do so.
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Post by Michael on Nov 3, 2018 9:20:08 GMT -5
Taking that California trip was something Hauptmann had put off doing several times in the past. Perhaps BRH really did go this time, 1931, because he couldn't be sure his future would provide him another opportunity to do so. That's what it looks like to me too. I've always tried to inject my opinions/observations "less" in the books as I would here but that's one point where I clearly do. Hopefully everyone realizes that while I hold strong opinions about what I see it doesn't mean its written in stone. One could possibly view this differently and it's really what this Board is all about. Keep doing what you are doing Amy! That's something I've wondered about and certainly if this was a bucket list event as I believe it was - would be weighing heavily on his mind. But there's always a counter argument to be made right? Like if I am wrong. If so, maybe it was about cheating and not wanting Anna to find out? Obviously I don't think that I am but I wanted trying to show the other side of it.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Nov 3, 2018 12:47:09 GMT -5
I doubt that he was thinking that far ahead or he would have made a better ladder and done some recon. of the house. He really lucked out considering he didn't know what he was doing.
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Post by denadenise1963 on Apr 18, 2019 0:46:11 GMT -5
Amazon delivered my copy of VII today. Cannot put it down. I did not even know I could read that fast anymore. lol I think I’ll order V1 tomorrow. I must read if ALL. ASAP. Excellent work, Michael. I’m blown away by the depths of your archival research. By shining a light into those dark corners over eight decades later, you are delivering the only semblance of justice that this sad case is ever going to receive. Thank you.
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