Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 14, 2006 9:33:28 GMT -5
Kevin, a very interesting thought. Can you possibly upload the photos you're referring to, or reference them? I've seen similar effects in openings of joints and vents, where dust has accumulated due to air circulation. It could very well be that the original section of Board 27 was removed at some point well in advance of the ladder's construction.
If true, this would seem to comment on the general veracity of eyewitness accounts relating to the missing section in the attic. Didn't Rauch claim there were no missing sections when he visited the attic in October 1931? And if the board had in fact been removed prior to 1932, then it appears the 37 or so investigators who reportedly searched the attic after Hauptmann's arrest in 1934, really did overlook this evidence entirely.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 14, 2006 10:55:03 GMT -5
Joe, My observations come from the actual ladder and S-226, I will see if I have a high contrast and resolution photo to post. I know what you are saying about the section being missed but how do you know that many investigators were in the attic prior to Bornmann's discovery? I also think that this is a difficult subject to discuss since I have no way of knowing what the attic conditions were like upon Hauptmann's arrest. That is why I asked for the info on what was stored up there and how it was accessed. I have been in many attics and know all too well that some are remarkably clean and empty while others are filled to the rafters. I think we all form our own mental image of what is was like to enter that attic at the time and it would be helpful to have a more accurate idea of this. I think it is also important to remember here that it was Koehler and Bornmann who had been partnered together for the wood search and I doubt any of the other investigators would have had their sights set on a piece of missing structure.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 14, 2006 11:55:44 GMT -5
Kevin, I don't necessarily subscribe to any significance in the "37 investigators" (if that number is correct) and their collective monumental "oversight." This is frequently trumpeted from the safe haven dapartment of the Hauptmann Supporter guild, as proof that Bornmann and Koehler were cooking up some plants in the attic. So the comment was a bit tongue in cheek.
I fully agree that we often overlook entirely what we're not focussed on or specifically looking for and the condition of the attic, as you point out could have played a significant role. To echo Michael's recent comments about Koehler overlooking the planer defect marks on S-226 and Rail 16, it would appear he may have also missed the dirt / soot marks you're referring to. Again, I would not be surprised if this were the case. These things happen in the real world in real time.
I recall reading that there were some items, possibly including a rug, stacked on the attic floor, near the entry point for relatively easy access. Because nothing of value was found prior to Bornmann's discovery, any stored items may not have been well documented though. Perhaps someone reading has an inventory.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 14, 2006 13:17:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I would like to know more of the attic conditions that existed upon the first entry by investigators. I think Michael has the best devil's advocate position regarding my theory, that the silver nitrate and other handling could have obliterated these marks. Still it would be interesting to have the rail and S-226 subjected to high magnification observation to determine whether any trace of these particles are present at the joist locations.
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Post by rita on Mar 15, 2006 22:02:48 GMT -5
floorboard Most description of floorboard evidence relies on the falsification of plane marks after the discovering detective moves into Hauptmans apartment, and this would have disqualified such evidence in most any court in the nation. The second violation of evidence handling happens when the board has been planed with Hauptman's plane to the degree it is speculated that some identifying points of the grain have to be assumed to have been planned away.
This is not legitimate evidence, and should have been thrown out of court. Any person can plane away dissimilar pieces of wood to nearly match the grain, and this is done all the time in cabinet shops. The carpenter should have realized this also, and the carpenter should have known , and I used to teach Funiture repair upholstering in high school.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 17, 2006 17:26:23 GMT -5
What about the matching grain and annular rings?
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Post by rickmember on Mar 17, 2006 20:43:21 GMT -5
Kevin--thanks for your confidence but i cant know the truth about the silver nitrate solution. my first guess would be that it could in fact obscure any joists shadows in the darkening? Just as it seems to do on the ransom notes--its like painting ww/ ink. My own feelings are that we have yet to prove that Rail 16 and S=226 are the same board. Why, because it is so difficult. It is equally difficult to prove they are not like a Mexican standoff. It would make it one heck of alot easier if there was only a kerf-width between them and not inches. Why...because they could be from the same board but have a much greater distance like 2 feet between them. This would sure confuse the evidence. But alas and alack we cant really prove that either/ Recent discussions and evidence bring another expert into the picture. Edward M. Davis from FPL...a Wood Technician from the 1920s to 1950s and a collegue of Koehler. Davis was the expert on machine marks and North Carolina Pine and published 50+ manuscripts. Until recently, I thought that Davis only saw those parts of the ladder to come to FPL, but Michael gave me two report signed by Davis in Dec 1934 and Jan 1935 which prove that Davis travelled to the NJSP training center in Wilburtha to prepare the wood evidence for Trial. To me, this means that not only did AK not see additional machine marks on Rail 16 but also Davis, the expert, did not comment on additional machine marks on Rail 16 to match the attic boards?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 8:38:54 GMT -5
Thanks Rick, I know the application is either immersion or spray so I don't think it would physically remove any traces. The darkening as you mentioned obviously would make them less visible. But I think that those particles, which are so fine would still be present in the grain and surfaces. At least a comparative analysis between it and S=226 might show a differential exposure, or not. I know the issue of the gap between the two boards is commonly used in the claims that you can not accurately determine that the two were once joined. I think to take that position strains common sense and science beyond reason. Even someone unfamiliar with wood can see the distinctive matching grain patterns. Magnify those annular rings and compare them. Map the grain orientation and growth anomalies throughout both boards. Would you be willing to say that A. Koehler was a liar and committed perjury as well as disgraced the FPL? Because that is what it would take to make the different board theory fly.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 18, 2006 9:55:39 GMT -5
The transparent overlays involving the reverse image of the end of Rail 16 and the normal image of S-226, as demonstrated in Kelvin Keraga's report, is compelling beyond the most extreme of odds. Here we clearly see the common orientation and direction of the rings, their widths, distance between rings, right down to the presence of false rings, which also match the rings' years of growth.
The matching top, bottom and side grain patterns of Rail 16 and S-226 also show clear indications of both of them previously having been one and the same original board.
Koehler and Bornmann would still be looking for so close a matchup today, if they had actually risked blowing the case and their respective careers apart, by deciding to plant such a critical piece of forensic evidence against Hauptmann.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 12:03:40 GMT -5
Joe. I think one thing that keeps this "planted" floorboard theory alive is that Bornmann may very well have violated the strict rules of evidence collection. I do believe that some sort of deceit is involved in his report, but that had more to do with improper procedure than an act of falsifying evidence. I wish some sort of conclusive invasive test could be conducted to put the issue of a "planted" board to rest for once and for all. Of course as I wrote that I realized that such results would still be ignored by some.
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Post by rick3 on Mar 18, 2006 12:29:41 GMT -5
As i mentioned on the olde board I think that 3D computer graphics can solve this dilemma without any invasion or hole drilling or sawdust. Just photograph S-226 and Rail 16 and let the computer tell us "how many inches is missing between them" once and for all--all of us. the same might hold true for MIR or CAT scan if the van can come to Wilburtha. I will accept the "scientific" conclusions!
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Post by Michael on Mar 18, 2006 13:15:25 GMT -5
Koehler has done some shady things....
His chisel charade in that Court room was perjury by omission. He knew that chisel wasn't found in Hauptmann's tool box. His floorplan was BS, and as we see in Dr. Gardner's book he lied about S-226 being brought back to the Bronx when it never left in the first place.
I think Kelvin's report is good in a lot of ways at bringing us closer to the truth. I also think we must be cautious not to do what he has done and that is draw conclusions based upon other conclusions and sell them as being drawn independently.
The People of Science that I have communicated with, and I have communicated with many, NEVER speak in absolutes when it comes to this evidence. They always say/said things like "I don't think" or "It doesn't appear" or "its unlikely"..... So I see in this regard Kel takes some liberty in his conclusions.
I also have a very hard time believing he didn't notice what Kevin did concerning the shadowing so I wonder what else he may have noticed that he decided not to include within his report. Furthermore, I saw a post wherein he quickly dismissed Kevin's "Electrician" theory based solely upon erroneous testimony from Rauch.
That ain't Science.
It doesn't make him wrong, however, in light of the fact something "wrong" did occur in that attic, we must be careful in what we accept - absolutely.
Joe, it looks like the tool mark examiner is out. Unfortunately when you run my name on Google it turns up the word "Conspiracy"..... so its my guess it doesn't help when most already opt out merely due to the controversial subject and nature of the crime itself.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 18, 2006 14:09:51 GMT -5
Yes Rick that would be a good idea. In fact I was giving this some thought and I would like to make a proposal. Since it never seems that we get anywhere with this case and I think the floorboard issue is critical for both those who see Hauptmann as guilty and those who see him as innocent why don't we initiate this testing. I know it might be expensive, especially since the ladder can not leave the museum. So here is my proposal , two funds will be created. I, and anyone else who believes the floorboard to be part of rail #16 and cares to contribute will pay for any and all testing in conjunction with those who believe the board is in fact a "plant". If the results prove the board and 16 were in fact one then you and the other contributors who believe Hauptmann innocent foot the entire bill. On the other hand, if the results prove that the two boards were not from the same piece of wood then I get to pay for the testing. Since there are so many fervent believers on each side we should have no problem creating the two respective funds. And in the end we will have finally put to rest this issue and be able to move on.
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Post by rick member on Mar 18, 2006 22:16:51 GMT -5
Well I dont know Kevin? Personally I dont think this case rises or falls on the wood evidence even though thats waht the majority of Vders hang on every post? Michael has stated time and agin that even if these two are the same board its not Check and Mate. It is now critical that they are the same board and precisely 1.58" apart too? So the rise and run are part of the bargain. We can take up a fund together I suppose, for a test we dont know for certain will solve the question. Maybe a secret benefactor will come forward with a Magnetic Resonance imaging system of his/her own and donate some time? Likely an MD. Wood is dead/ I find the LKC still alive and well.
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Post by rick the member on Mar 19, 2006 6:46:22 GMT -5
Kevin...you make my point in spades "Even someone unfamiliar with wood can see that the grain matches". [Its practically akin to the Immaculate Conception!] Wasnt that the entire exercise in Flemington (and not Mercer Co)? Take a bunch of rubes unfamiliar with wood, or handwriting or wood chisels or tool marks or saw mills and convince them "beyond a reasonable doubt" that BRH was guilty by the use of so-called experts. It wouldnt surprise me one iota if all the experts truely believed what they were saying--thus technically they werent really lying? All the prosecution witnesses themselves wanted to believe that they had helped solve the The Kidnapping of the Century for CAL/applepie/motherhood and the American Way. Sadly, like JFC, they were all slightly delusional and just wanted the reward moneys.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 8:18:49 GMT -5
"Michael has stated time and agin that even if these two are the same board its not Check and Mate." (Rick)
Yes it would not be the answer to all questions . However if you are of the opinion that Hauptmann is completely innocent and that the kidnapping was a hoax ( a Hoaxster) it would follow that determining that these boards were not the same would be conclusive proof the evidence against Hauptmann was false and therofore the claims of a hoax are true. You see, anyone like me who firmly believes that ladder rail and the floorboard are one has nothing to gain here. It has already been examined and discussed ad nauseum. But for those of you who believe a "plant" of evidence occurred and that BRH was framed the conclusive testing will verify your entire hoax theory.
"Kevin...you make my point in spades "Even someone unfamiliar with wood can see that the grain matches".
I was refering to common sense which I think was more common back then.
"Take a bunch of rubes unfamiliar with wood, or handwriting or wood chisels or tool marks or saw mills and convince them "beyond a reasonable doubt" that BRH was guilty by the use of so-called experts."
Well if I were you I wouldn't go to Hunterdon and say that. But you do make a good point. Koehler's work was advanced for the time and just as today's juries must deal with advanced scientific forensic reports so did the jury at Flemington. That is why there are two sides , a prosecution and a defense, so that these issues can be contested and examined.
My offer still stands regarding the testing. I would like to see just how commited some are to the Hoax cause. And remember, if your claim of planted evidence is true as I am sure you believe, the entire cost of testing will be paid by me. Of course if you are wrong , you pay. So let.s get this underway , make some arrangements and send me the bill.
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Post by rick the member on Mar 19, 2006 13:51:26 GMT -5
joe.....I will try to answer your questions:
1. Well, I think that this whole 3-holed approache to notes was devised or developed for the spy industry. You cant just have 3 holes placed just anyplace so you need a confirmer or checker....thats where the Mersman holes come in. When Mark F. proves his point at the Archives he shines a backlight thru the board and you can see thru all the holes at the same time. Dead on. In our case, LKC, the notes all go to CAL? So the other team doesnt need a table. Of course, I am assuming that a Nazi cell in the Bronx helped design the symbol? 2. No I dont, but i assume that they are mass produced by Mersman to be interchangable.. 3. Yes,,,,I would take the 3 hole punch and use the Mersman holes to allign the punches then tighted the thumb screws and take the board out. 4. Positioning the paper is a hard quiestion/ at first I thought there were allignment marks on the table board but there are not....so they could be punched in groups with one former one as the template? I didnt check that. What I did notice is that the Mersman table board would not work with free hand punching because the holes are overdrilled with cups for the washers!!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 16:13:12 GMT -5
Rick, I think you are on the wrong thread. Don't you mean to be on "How the holes were made"?
"When Mark F. proves his point at the Archives he shines a backlight thru the board and you can see thru all the holes at the same time. Dead on."
I am not sure Mark was trying to prove a point only point out a coincidence. It might be useful to take into account that the table brace has 4 countersunk holes for #8 or larger wood screws. Also I believe the spacing of the ransom holes is about 1 1/8" o/c which is not a extraordinary number. If you were to give me a little time I would probably be able to find an identical spacing on some tool or material in my shop.
"3. Yes,,,,I would take the 3 hole punch and use the Mersman holes to Allin the punches then tighted the thumb screws and take the board out." (Rick)
But you know very well that a 3 hole punch would not make the rough irregular holes found in the notes. Why do you keep reiterating this?
" What I did notice is that the Mersman table board would not work with free hand punching because the holes are overdrilled with cups for the washers!!"
Exactly. That is one of the many reasons that the Mersman was not used to make the holes.
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Post by rick the member on Mar 19, 2006 17:58:57 GMT -5
kevin...this Board is rapidly morphing into the LKC so noone can follow the threads/strings? Maybe the strings will rejoin in 3Dem space just like the attic board and Rail 16? Wow! Just because the Mersman Table board cannot be used to make the holes doesnt mean it cant be used to plan the holes! AFter all, some rocket scientist managed to realize that the Table board perfectly matched the hole spacing and signed the Liepsig drinking song w/ Nazi Party. Thats pretty clever in and of itself dontcha thimk?
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Post by rick the member on Mar 19, 2006 18:12:22 GMT -5
Kevin...also, you dont want to miss out on my "Fisch Frames BRH" theory. Heres how it might go: Fisch meets BRH in 1931. Fisch is sweet on Anna and comes over alot to see her when Bruno is out to lunch with Gerta. Then Fisch decides to hang Bruno with the Patsy role and steals the ladder rail from the basement where its lying around or from the attic where he is storing his catskins? Isador makes certain to have an airtight alibi for March 1st and leaves Bruno the shew box full of Gold Certs. If you are going to mastermind this kidnapping you sure arnt going to get caught--even if you spend a year laundering the ransom moneys all over the Bronx/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 19, 2006 19:11:54 GMT -5
Now you are talking Rick, glad you took my advice about concentrating on conspiracy at a time!
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Post by Michael on Mar 20, 2006 6:00:42 GMT -5
Kevin, I checked out all the reports and it seems to me only these items were found in the attic: - 1. One Brown Suit Case
- 2. One Canvas Mason's Bag containing:
A. Two Trowels B. One Ruler C. One Plastering Knife D. One Piece of Small Pipe E. One Plane Blade
- 3. One Offset Piece of Iron
Rick, No furs were found in the attic but in several other places. In total, 431 pieces of furs had been found as follows: - 1. 40 small pieces of fur found in a small brown suitcase also containing 3 metal and 1 wood hand vise - in the garage.
- 2. 340 pieces of small dyed muskrat skins found in a "mothex chest" apparently in the hallway closet.
- 3. 51 pieces of fur found in a corrugated paper box also containing 3 photos, one rubber floor protector, envelope containing snapshots, sheet music for the mandolin, and maps of various states - in the baby's room.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 20, 2006 8:23:05 GMT -5
Thanks Michael Did you ever read anything regarding what ladder was used to access that attic?
I wonder when BRH last used that mason bag ?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Mar 20, 2006 8:51:55 GMT -5
Michael, do you know if anything further was pursued on the discovery of the out of state maps? Were these possibly the ones which gave rise to the headlines about Hauptmann having maps of the areas relating to the kidnapping?
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 21, 2006 8:36:08 GMT -5
There are several reasons for why I believe the issue of a "dedicated" attic access ladder is important. First , the common theory of a Sunday ladder construction with a resulting need to find a 1" x 4" x 7' replacement board to to breakage of the original rail #16 seems even harder to accept if Hauptmann now has to retrieve a ladder from somewhere remote. He is going to have to make several trips up the stairs to his apartment with a ladder and tools, empty out the closet and access that scuttle hatch to the attic. Then he has to repeat this process , this time with a 7' board, without raising anyones suspicion. I have the same attic access situation in my house which is why I so seldom go up there. I don't even know if I could say for sure what is stored up there, it certainly would not occur to me to go up there for a piece of wood. If you are willing to go to all that effort for the wrong sized lumber, why not take a piece off the garage which has plenty of 1" material? Second, Hauptmann told the police that he never uses a ladder yet he must have when he built the garage. So what ladder was he using then? Was it borrowed? Was it the landlords? Or did he build a utility construction ladder? It is in the details that the solution to this case will be found.
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Post by Michael on Mar 21, 2006 22:11:00 GMT -5
Kevin, The closet had (4) small shelves on the side about 18" apart from one another which was used as a type of ladder in order to gain entrance into and out of that attic. I also wanted to add to my above post concerning what was found in the attic. I found in the later inventories these above items being kept with what I listed previously: 1. One Mason's Hammer 2. Two Stones (Sharpening) 3. Misc. assortment of nails, tacks, screws, etc. 4. One small edged file I don't know for a fact these were also found in the attic but it is a safe bet they were based upon what the items are and that they were being kept with the other items found up there. It's my guess these items may not have been Hauptmann's but left behind by the Contractors who had worked up there during the construction of the house. What does everyone else think? Joe, I know of no actual "investigation" but contained within the inventories there is: 1. 1931 Standard Oil Road Map of New Jersey.
2. 1932 Esso Road Map of New Jersey.
3. 1932 Gulf Oil Co. Map of North & South Carolina.
4. A box of assorted Maps of all states between New York, California, and Florida.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 22, 2006 8:08:19 GMT -5
Michael, regarding the tools and bag. This seems to be an assortment of tools as opposed to a working set for a trade. That leads me to believe that it would belong to Hauptmann or the landlord. Since I know that Hauptmann's tool inventory is incomplete, the addition of some of these items would make sense. Of particular interest is the masons bag. I have tried to imagine the exact procedure that took place that night in Hopewell. In doing so I have always believed that the kidnapper(s) would have carried tools and other items. A mason's bag would work fine for this task.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2006 13:21:20 GMT -5
Michael, your shelving dimensions got me thinking about that attic access. I looked closely at a NJSP photo of that closet ( thanks Mark) to see what the situation was. The shelves are 11 5/8" wide (Koehler) and vary in spacing from 12" to 16 1/2" ( Koehler). In addition they are not secured to the cleats which they rest on. When I took the closet dimensions ( Koehler & photo) and drew a scale drawing I found something interesting. A standard ladder would not fit in that closet with the shelves in place, but guess what ladder would? I don't know if this amounts to anything, it doesn't fit into my thinking on the attic and Hauptmann.
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 22:06:52 GMT -5
Kev...I knew if you pecked around enuf we would finally have to agree on something!! I found a number of newspaper clippings at FPL from the late 1934. Like Nove and December. There were a ton of rumors about some "mystical" link between the ladder and the house. But as late as December 12th the NYTimes ran interviews of Wilinz and Koehler "denying any wood connections". But earlier,in the Milwaukee Sentinel, there were reports/rumors of connections to the attic closet! Really. First the side board on the ladder...the small brace on one rail...was sposed to come from the closet wood. Then a second connection was rumored between the ladder rungs and the shelf brackets in the closet. Now why do you suppose Wilintz and Koehler were flatly denying this "slam-dunk" evidence less than one month before the Trial? A Christmas suprize for CAl and Anne? After all, Bornmann spotted the divine fit on 26 Sept. and they had braggin rights on it right now? When was the Bronx extradition hearing?
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Post by rita on Mar 24, 2006 23:42:31 GMT -5
To Michael Capenters very often forget where in large construction projects certain bags of tolls or inividual pieces were left behind.
Kevkon In small crawl spaces that have narrow entrance space, one has to consider the ladder length, and cross member (6", 12") turn allowance. The actual ladder might be needed to make the test.
Rick I found a three quater inch chisel, and an old case of beer the capenters forgot when they sealed off a wall on a crawl space in my house remodel job. They were boozing on the clock, and couldn't remove evidence. Rumors in newspapers can be bought, and is how advertizers pump up public anticipation for products, and even CIA has been known to publish false information for decieving the enemy.
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