kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 21, 2006 13:23:04 GMT -5
You are correct, he did not specify that it be fabricated. However there is an inherent implication here for if no packet of that size exists than it must follow that one has to be made. I can't possibly rule out that something of that size did not exist in 1932. It is interesting though that Condon, Breckenridge, and Lindbergh after seeing the diagram offered no alternative. Shoe boxes that I have measured have not come out to that size, although it must be said that there probably exists many more sizes than I could possibly measure. Once again my main point is why does Hauptmann go to the added trouble of providing a drawing here? He has already effectively specified the volume by giving exact instructions regarding the breakdown of the money, 5150 individual bills. What exactly would he think that would be put into without his drawing?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 21, 2006 13:56:08 GMT -5
It was Condon who jumped into this fray by offering a facsimile of his 19th century ballot box as the container. Perhaps he and the others felt it was close enough to appease the kidnappers' request.
As far as I'm concerned, by the wording of the note, they could have wrapped the money in brown paper, along the requested dimensions, although that would have made it impossible to verify the amount without CJ having to unwrap it.
As for the physical diagram, I regard this possibly as a means of ensuring there was no confusion about the dimensional orientation, perhaps an intent to make the process easier to follow for Lindbergh, or maybe just having to do with Hauptmann's propensity to draw diagrams. Not sure really, but I don't see the diagram as a major issue anymore than one might see an illustration in a dictionary placed beside the full description of a particular word.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 21, 2006 14:47:56 GMT -5
"As for the physical diagram, I regard this possibly as a means of ensuring there was no confusion about the dimensional orientation"
There really are not that many configurations available, unless you consider origami, for the money. So why be so peticular on this point? What would have been wrong with just stuffiing it into a bag or a notecase? Why is the physical orientation important? It sounds as if you are making the point that there is importance to the size.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 21, 2006 15:02:50 GMT -5
True, there's not many ways the dimensions could be interpreted. I guess the way I see it, it's just something Hauptmann could relate to for size and without saying the word shoebox or hatbox, or whatever, used his drawing abilities to quickly and effectively illustrate what he had in mind. I don't necessarily support any theories relating to the thought it had to be a specific size for hiding in a pre-arranged location. I would think the most important thing would be to get the money back to home base, take it out of the package, count it, divide it up. Then destroy the package.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 21, 2006 17:25:10 GMT -5
I have to believe he had a purpose here, though what it is I am not sure. It may just have been a convenient way to quickly ascertain that the proper amount of money was being handed over.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 21, 2006 20:05:55 GMT -5
That could very well be. In any case, CJ still felt the need to kneel down and examine a few of the sheaths of wrapped bills.
Joe
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Post by Michael on Feb 21, 2006 20:09:07 GMT -5
I am right there with you Kevin. It would be like saying he really didn't mean Bergen's Florist Shop - he meant any Florist. I can't shrug this off or place a generic tag onto it because what's the point of being specific in the first place then? The note Writer is specific for a reason....he's not drawing and writing for the "hell of it" so there has to be something to this. I see Joe & Rick disagreeing but I get the feeling they aren't 100% either way.
To your credit - you have been the first (that I know of) to point this out.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 21, 2006 20:34:07 GMT -5
Too bad we can't be absolutely sure about the writing after 14.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 21, 2006 20:55:29 GMT -5
It's a tough one, it's always looked like "inch" or "min" to me.
Joe
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Post by rick on Feb 22, 2006 0:13:59 GMT -5
Joe..here is another odd coincidence. In BRH last letter to his Mom he makes specific use of the word "packet" to describe the mony. This pulls him into the extortion for me? As does the drawing of the shoe box which could be the one CJ/Fisch left for Richard at the party.
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Post by Michael on Feb 22, 2006 6:27:21 GMT -5
Rick are you claiming you think Fisch gave Hauptmann the actual ransom box?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 22, 2006 7:14:50 GMT -5
If that is what Rick is implying I would agree that it is certainly a possibility. I am still not convinced that Kloppenberg's description of the "box" during the trial was coincidental given the dimensions he stated. Another thing, and I know this is probably not the right thread, the claim by BRH regarding the "package" in the leaky closet is interesting when one considers it's relative size. Assuming you believe BRH, then the package contains around $15000 . When you calculate the size that this money would occupy it comes way short of any shoe box I have ever seen. Put it this way, the 14" x 6" x 7" "packet" would be able to contain the 5150 bills comprising the $70000, assuming it was packed correctly. We know it actually contained the $50000 and remember that includes 2000 $5 bills. The supposed $15000 Fisch brought would have fit in an envelope. So why is it in a box?
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Post by rick on Feb 22, 2006 11:16:21 GMT -5
Kevkon--someone on this board has suggested that the previous kidnapp attempt on Constance in late 1920s also involved a $50K ransom and some defined package size? I cant confirm this or the dimensions. But, we might have a serial kidnapper stalking the Morrow Family? The Shoebox Snatcher?
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Post by rick for michael on Feb 22, 2006 11:22:21 GMT -5
No, not the 5 wood ballot box ill-conceived by Condon and built by Samuelson. I was thinking more like Fisch as CJ wanted the ransom to fit into a shoe box either for rapid transport form St. Raymonds, concealment or storage. Later on, when Fisch is headed for Liepsig he leaves Bruno this same shoe box he has been storing the ransom in since 2 April 32? As you recall, Kloppenberg was never allowed to say the words "shoebox' in his testimony.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 22, 2006 13:08:01 GMT -5
Yes I know that Wilentz would not allow Kloppenberg to say it was a "shoe box" he saw Fisch bring. But still his recital of the dimensions of the actual ransom box seems more than a little coincidental to me. Especially considering that he is a carpenter as well and would probably be able to provide an accurate dimensional description. I think the more important point, and I have never heard it discussed, is as I pointed out the money Hauptmann claimed was delivered by Fisch would easily fit into a smaller "packet". That point becomes more relevant when you read Hauptmann's account of the wet box on the top shelf and the money becoming visible. It sounds like he is describing a box filled with money, when in fact it would be far from filled.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 22, 2006 16:46:59 GMT -5
" have the money in one bundle we want you t [glow=red,2,300]put it in a sertain place[/glow]. Ther is no fear that somebody els will take it, we will watch evertthing closely."
Ransom Note #9
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 22, 2006 21:36:30 GMT -5
Kevin, I previously did the calculations to see whether 5150 bills would have fit into a package of the dimensions specified by the kidnappers.
They would have, with about 30% room to spare, but only if they were new bills and wrapped tightly end to end. Circulated, random bills, as specified by the kidnappers, naturally "bulk" up due to creasing and fraying. This bulking value can increase the volume taken up by a stack of such bills, by 3 or 4 times their original thickness.
They may not have realized this in their original request in the ransom note.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 22, 2006 21:47:38 GMT -5
Yes, there is always the unexpected
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 23, 2006 17:36:43 GMT -5
I wonder what "sertain" place was originally intended. Since cemeteries seem to be favored was there a niche or other space which could hold the"packet"? Was this ever looked into?
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2006 19:07:50 GMT -5
Good point and observation Kevin.....
I do know they were quite interested in a Mausoleum located in St. Raymond's but it didn't turn anything of interest up. I'll have to (once again) try to find the report for specifics if interested. Your question made me remember this.
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Post by rick on Feb 23, 2006 19:15:34 GMT -5
Also, wasnt this the MO of the kidnapping threat against Constance Morrow up in Conn? $50K dollars put into a rock wall or something like that to be picked up later on? The cops watched it for a few days but noone ever came to pick it up? Maybe whoever came back for the 5-wood Ballot Box came back for the dough as well? You might think that all those detectives might have considered this then.....just in case it was Condon who placed it?
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Post by rick on Mar 8, 2006 18:07:04 GMT -5
Bingo!
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Post by rita on Mar 15, 2006 22:35:12 GMT -5
Another unbelievable story Why would any sane kidnapper demand a box be left to the elements, and that they would be foolish enough to keep watch on it?
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