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Post by scathma on Mar 29, 2018 11:39:18 GMT -5
Author and source of the quote mentioning Kristoflex: "James Davidson is a resident of East Amwell Township where he was appointed the local historian in 2008 and is an active member of the East Amwell Historical Society and the township’s Preservation Committee. He is an avid collector of Lindbergh memorabilia and has recently finished a book on the Lindbergh kidnapping, a subject he often speaks on." discovernjhistory.org/imagining-the-lindbergh-baby-kidnapping-from-my-own-backyard/
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Post by scathma on Mar 29, 2018 12:54:26 GMT -5
The names appear on this list of Lindbergh Kidnapping Case photographs in the Kent State Collection: www.library.kent.edu/lindbergh-kidnapping-case-photographsI believe the first name is spelled "Olando" not "Orlando" Patsy Olando (questioned) #20 farm owner? William Campbell (questioned) #32 Edith Winter and Muriel Fress #35 Asa Dalgren #42 listed as Lindbergh neighbor Elizabeth Faubian #58 rumored to have made flight to Lindbergh home, April 22, 1932 These photographs are part of a collection, donated by Albert and Helen Borowitz, containing photographs, clippings, posters, and other documents related to the Lindbergh kidnapping and subsequent trial of Richard Bruno Hauptmann. A large portion of this collection includes press photographs and newspaper clippings, which give a telling glimpse into the ethos and pathos of 1930s media, and its direct influences on events surrounding the Lindbergh case. Many of these photographs, complete with detailed captions, were used in various newspaper publications during the years of the kidnap and trial. Five distinct time periods are well-represented by this collection, and include the Lindbergh family before the kidnapping took place, the kidnapping itself, the time frame during the search for the child, the investigation, and the courtroom trial of Hauptmann. The complete FBI file report about the case is also present in this collection as well as "Reward" and "Wanted" posters circulated during the case. In addition, a pamphlet satirizing a fictional kidnapping paralleling the Lindbergh case and mailed to the Hauptmann jury prior to the trial, is an important item in the collection.
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Post by scathma on Mar 29, 2018 13:13:39 GMT -5
I have emailed Kent State to request any captions associated with the photos on your list.
They are closed for Spring Break so the board may have answers before we get a response from KSU...
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Post by Michael on Mar 29, 2018 14:09:29 GMT -5
When the State Police began interviewing neighbors and virtually any inhabitants within a four mile radius, they interviewed John Kristoflex who lived in my house. He and his brother-in-law, who was staying with him, said that on the afternoon of the kidnapping they both saw a strange car pass their house. At about 8:30 p.m., their dog went crazy and they let him out and he ran down Lindbergh’s driveway. The next day, dog prints were found around footprints that led from Lindbergh’s house to Featherbed Lane; the dog was the only living thing that had seen the kidnapper(s). By then there were thousands of cars jamming the road that runs past my house and people were everywhere; some estimate that 15,000 people entered the Sourlands that day. Many newspaper pictures of the time show my house in the background. Laura Vitray who worked for William Randolph Hearst’s New York Journal talks about renting my house so she and her fellow reporters could see who was coming and going from the Lindbergh estate. Jim Davidson knows a ton about the case and is a great speaker if anyone ever gets a chance to hear him talk. He co-authored " New Jersey's Kidnapping and Trial" with Mark Falzini. Kristofeck is mention in V1 starting on page 246. I've never seen it spelled "Kristoflex" and I am thinking that's a typo but one never knows....
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Post by Michael on Mar 29, 2018 14:13:04 GMT -5
Anyone familiar with these names? Patsy Orlando (questioned) William Campbell (questioned) Edith Winter and Muriel Fress Asa Dalgren Elizabeth Faubian Orlando, Dalgren, and I think Campbell are all mentioned in the neighborhood grid searches I've posted about. The only person on this list where anything goes "further" than that in detail (that I recall) is Patsy Orlando. I mention him in V2 in Chapter 1.
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Post by scathma on Apr 3, 2018 18:21:05 GMT -5
Thanks to Kathryn Clements at Kent State for the following reply:
"I pulled the folders you are interested in and have transcribed the captions verbatim for you (spelling errors and all)"
Folder 20: Patsy Olando farm, he was questioned by police, March 4, 1932 "Question farmer in Lindbergh kidnaping Patsy Olando, laborer of Brooklyn, N.Y., owning a farm in Woodsville, N.J., who left Hopewell on Tuesday night, was picked up and questioned by New York police on March 4th. He said he knew nothing and was not officially taken into custody. In the meantime, officers in Hopewell journeyed to the Olando farm, three miles away, and questioned John Olando, son of Patsy. Above photo shows the Olando farm. Credit line (ACME) 3/4/32"
Folder 32: William Campbell, questioned in kidnaping, March 5, 1932 "B180362 Questioned in Lindbergh kidnaping. This picture shows William Campbell, 26, of Worcester, Mass., who was questioned in connection with the Lindbergh kidnaping, at Cambridge, Mass., jail, where he has been held since February 19 as an alleged interstate thief. It was reported Campbell also was known as "Scotty Gow" and might be related to Betty Gow, the missing baby's nurse, but Campbell made a complete denial of the reports. Credit Line (ACME) 3/5/32"
Folder 35: Edith Winter and Muriel Fress, conferred with Lindbergh about information in case, March 6, 1932 "2--Left to right are Mrs. Edith Winter, and her daughter, Miss Muriel Fress of Ridgefield, N.J. Mrs. Winter, in the belief that she had important information which would reveal valuable clews for the apprehension of the kidnapers of the Lindbergh baby, went to the Lindbergh home at Hopewell, N.J. today, Mar. 6th, in company with the chief of police of Ridgefield and conferred with Col Lindbergh. Her information was subsequently proved of no importance. Credit Line (ACME) 3/6/32"
Folder 42: Asa Dalgren, Lindbergh neighbor, March 8, 1932 "180792 Lindy neighbor listens in for reports Naturally the neighbors of Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh are just as anxious to hear the latest developments in the kidnaping as anyone else, and Asa Dalgren, neighbor of Lindbergh and a farmer, is greatly concerned about the kidnaping. Here's Dalgren milking a cow on his farm, and at the same time listening in to radio reports of the abduction. Credit line (ACME) 3/8/32"
Folder 58: Elizabeth Faubion, rumored to have made flight to Lindbergh home, April 22,1932 "KC 184961 Made flight to Lindberghs? Mrs. Elizabeth Faubion, who is said to have made a mysterious airplane flight from Kansas City to New Jersey ostensibly to see Col. Charles A. Lindbergh in connection with his missing child, is seen here in her Kansas City home after her return. When interviewed, Mrs. Faubion denied she had made the flight, adding more mystery to the journey. Credit line (ACME) 4/22/32"
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Post by scathma on Apr 4, 2018 10:11:11 GMT -5
I didn't do much... I merely sent an email. Kathryn Clements at Kent State did all the research and transcribing.
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Post by stella7 on Aug 3, 2021 20:07:56 GMT -5
Oddly enough Patsy Orlando's name came up on the "I Grew Up in Princeton" page on Facebook today where they were reminiscing about Karen's at Brookside, a grill and soft ice cream place at the corner of 518 and rt 31. Here's the exchange.
Before Karen bought the business from Pat Orlando , it was Pat’s . It had a “fender bender special”,free hot dog and soda with your accident. Doc Stults Sr. got a cheese steak every Sunday for his supper.. when he started ordering it was around $2.75 . One Sunday when he was in his late 90’s I offered to pick it up for on my way in for a call. At this point it was Karen’s, I told them I was there for Doc’s supper and she said ok that’s $2.75 . She never raised his price.
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Post by Michael on Aug 4, 2021 7:20:40 GMT -5
Yes. There was a pretty big investigation surrounding him and I’ve got a decent sized file on it: imgur.com/a/FJr4akj
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Post by stella7 on Aug 4, 2021 8:19:20 GMT -5
Thanks Michael, any mention of illegal stills on his farm in your file, and do you know the address? This interview was dated 1934, when did they first interview Patsy? I'll go back and read V2 chapter 1 now.
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Post by Michael on Aug 4, 2021 12:05:14 GMT -5
Original investigation began in mid March 1932. They did not find any stills at that time or anything else suspicious.
He was arrested by the NJSP in 1933 for grand larceny but the charges were dropped.
Allegations resurfaced and police investigation restarted in April 1934. This time they started to develop evidence of a stolen car ring. His son Ralph was arrested in NYC and the NJSP were trying to get the NYPD to bring in Patsy and his other son John but they seemed reluctant to do so. Anyway, the NJSP arrested him again in August of 1934 in Hopewell for possession of a stolen car. I don’t have the disposition and can’t find his statement. It could be I haven’t filed it, I lost interest because he wasn’t connected to this case so I didn’t copy it, or there isn’t one at the archives.
By the way, Orlando also had an alias of “Mucciolo.”
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Post by Michael on Aug 4, 2021 12:11:05 GMT -5
I just checked the statement collection index for the archives and there isn’t one for any Orlando (or his alias) at all.
That doesn’t mean there isn’t one down there but it does mean it’s unlikely.
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Post by Michael on Aug 5, 2021 7:32:43 GMT -5
As to the address….
Believe it or not, they only refer to his farm as being in Woodsville. His neighbor was Wendell Flynn.
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Post by aaron on Aug 5, 2021 17:30:01 GMT -5
Also in "Dark Corners" vol. 2: John Condon's responses to the questions given to him at the Grand Jury Investigation are examined in Michael Melsky's "Dark Corners" vol. 2. As we have already recognized, Condon's descriptions of Cemetery John vary so much that arriving at an exact portrait of the man (or even an approximate portrait) is nearly impossible, but he does make some comments worthy of examination. Cemetery John, he claimed, was a "sick man" physically, and specific details of the illness corroborated by unchanged details could indicate the type of illness. Condon was not a medical doctor; his advanced degree was in pedagogy. Yet he attempted to diagnose John's condition and believed it to be a pulmonary disorder. I am not a member of the medical profession but have examined the details given by Condon to the Grand Jury and also those which appear in Coleman's unpublished work "Vigil." The symptoms mentioned resemble those suffered by patients with congenital syphilis. In particular, the description of John's hands matches those of individuals with syphilis: "the fingers are long, and the hands appear to be 'ordinary," but Condon claimed that "the finger tips appeared. . .just as if disease such as pulmonary inroad" might seem. The swelling at the base of the thumbs could have been caused by syphilis not an unusual symptom. Images of hands affected by this disease appear on-line. Also symptomatic is a protruding mandible (lower jaw), also mentioned in relation to CJ. At one point Condon said that CJ's face looked like a triangle with the lower angle lopped off. Characteristic also is inflammation of the cornea, causing tear drops. Condon reports seeing tears on CJ's face. The problem with the corneas results in squinting of the eyes of the affected person. Condon reported that the eyes of CJ squinted like those of a Chinese or Japanese person. Condon reported that CJ told him that "he was only a go-between, that he had no record but was recruited because the group "had something on him." It's possible that Number 1 and Number 2 of the gang CJ mentions knew of his syphilitic condition and would spread the information if he refused to cooperate. At that time (1932) syphilis was treated with salvarsan. Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in 1929 , it was not used to treat syphilis until the early 1940s. Cj was indeed a sick man, but a bottle the cough syrup Condon suggested would have been of little use to a man with an illness as serious as congenital syphilis.
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Post by Guest on Aug 5, 2021 18:56:50 GMT -5
Also in "Dark Corners" vol. 2: John Condon's responses to the questions given to him at the Grand Jury Investigation are examined in Michael Melsky's "Dark Corners" vol. 2. As we have already recognized, Condon's descriptions of Cemetery John vary so much that arriving at an exact portrait of the man (or even an approximate portrait) is nearly impossible, but he does make some comments worthy of examination. Cemetery John, he claimed, was a "sick man" physically, and specific details of the illness corroborated by unchanged details could indicate the type of illness. Condon was not a medical doctor; his advanced degree was in pedagogy. Yet he attempted to diagnose John's condition and believed it to be a pulmonary disorder. I am not a member of the medical profession but have examined the details given by Condon to the Grand Jury and also those which appear in Coleman's unpublished work "Vigil." The symptoms mentioned resemble those suffered by patients with congenital syphilis. In particular, the description of John's hands matches those of individuals with syphilis: "the fingers are long, and the hands appear to be 'ordinary," but Condon claimed that "the finger tips appeared. . .just as if disease such as pulmonary inroad" might seem. The swelling at the base of the thumbs could have been caused by syphilis not an unusual symptom. Images of hands affected by this disease appear on-line. Also symptomatic is a protruding mandible (lower jaw), also mentioned in relation to CJ. At one point Condon said that CJ's face looked like a triangle with the lower angle lopped off. Characteristic also is inflammation of the cornea, causing tear drops. Condon reports seeing tears on CJ's face. The problem with the corneas results in squinting of the eyes of the affected person. Condon reported that the eyes of CJ squinted like those of a Chinese or Japanese person. Condon reported that CJ told him that "he was only a go-between, that he had no record but was recruited because the group "had something on him." It's possible that Number 1 and Number 2 of the gang CJ mentions knew of his syphilitic condition and would spread the information if he refused to cooperate. At that time (1932) syphilis was treated with salvarsan. Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in 1929 , it was not used to treat syphilis until the early 1940s. Cj was indeed a sick man, but a bottle the cough syrup Condon suggested would have been of little use to a man with an illness as serious as congenital syphilis. Hauptmann was examined thoroughly after his arrest. The diagnosis you propose was not made.
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Post by aaron on Aug 6, 2021 3:17:17 GMT -5
If that is so, then Hauptmann would not have been Cemetery John, or he would have been suffering from another disease that produced the symptoms identified. Obviously CJ was not a healthy man.
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Post by aaron on Aug 6, 2021 4:07:33 GMT -5
By way of explanation. I am not espousing any theory regarding guilt. Condon reports that Cemetery John is ill and has a disease. CJ admits he is ill. These facts are presented to us in Michael's vol. 2. Condon is not a medical doctor, but his diagnosis is that Cj has a pulmonary disease. The inconsistency, however, is the extent of the coughing, whether CJ coughs once or several times. The coughing is the symptom that leads to Condon's diagnosis--which for him is not a cold being suffered for the moment. In discussing the hands of CJ he mentions the tips of the fingers--which must be unusual in some way--since he relates the appearance of the finger tips to a chronic pulmonary condition, not just a temporary cold. Condon's conclusion may be in error but the symptoms are still there.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 6, 2021 11:16:08 GMT -5
I’m not surprised that no reasonable candidates who might have been CJ, other than Richard Hauptmann, have come forth in close to ninety years. He fills the bill for so many good reasons, most of which point to his inarguably-intimate connection to this case, within both the kidnapping and extortion.
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Post by aaron on Aug 6, 2021 12:04:09 GMT -5
I understand. My interest in the case is not to prove anyone either guilty or innocent but to examine the facts, evidence, and data concerning the crime and evaluate them. Some of the circumstances in the case, or at least reasonable possibilities, have not been considered though a number of theories have been advanced, several of which appear very unlikely. So I explore possibilities not yet considered and try to connect the dots. This case is not easy, certainly not like an Agatha Christie short story, since there are many distractions, witnesses who may have meant well but misinterpret what they have seen, others with imperfect memories, some interested in making some money at the expense of others, etc. I do think, though, that Cemetery John may well have had a chronic disease, given his conversation with Condon. The suggestion of congenital syphilis is genuine although I have seen any source for the suggestion. What I have found in the medical resources and from the photographs of the disease do support this observation. The disease was common enough but may not have been considered before in regard to this case. Since you are interested, I will do some further research on the subject and will post on the board if anything seems appropriate. My training was formally in historical research and so can appreciate the work done by some members of this board.
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Post by Michael on Aug 7, 2021 6:13:18 GMT -5
I’m not surprised that no reasonable candidates who might have been CJ, other than Richard Hauptmann, have come forth in close to ninety years. He fills the bill for so many good reasons, most of which point to his inarguably-intimate connection to this case, within both the kidnapping and extortion. How can you say this while simultaneously believing Condon was an honest guy? Here are just some examples: No lump.
Footprint did not match.
Condon originally did NOT identify him.
Condon took off to Florida to searching to place the blame on somebody else. These aren’t innocent “mistakes” or “oversights.“ You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. It’s one or the other. Either Hauptmann was CJ or Condon was lying.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2021 10:04:16 GMT -5
I’m not surprised that no reasonable candidates who might have been CJ, other than Richard Hauptmann, have come forth in close to ninety years. He fills the bill for so many good reasons, most of which point to his inarguably-intimate connection to this case, within both the kidnapping and extortion. How can you say this while simultaneously believing Condon was an honest guy? Here are just some examples: No lump.
Footprint did not match.
Condon originally did NOT identify him.
Condon took off to Florida to searching to place the blame on somebody else. These aren’t innocent “mistakes” or “oversights.“ You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. It’s one or the other. Either Hauptmann was CJ or Condon was lying. Condon basically was an honest guy Michael, in spite of the fact you seem to continually do your best to portray him in the most negative light in order to keep your personal theory agenda afloat. Why is this so obvious? For the simple reason that over the past twenty years, you’ve glaringly omitted or downplayed any possible references to Condon’s positive character attributes, in regards to love of country, family and community service and his repeated claims he wanted to do nothing greater than serve the Lindberghs and safely return CALjr to them. Of course, you do the same with Lindbergh for a different reason, but that’s a whole other story. I won't belabour your highly-debatable points here, so I’ll go with the precis version based on what I know and believe. Condon wasn’t looking for a “lump” or a congenital defect, or whatever you'd prefer to call it. He was looking for a well developed thenar eminence muscle group at the base of Hauptmann’s thumb, palm side. He refers to it as a “mutton chop” in some sources, right? Hauptmann, having worked for many years as a carpenter, still had this in September of 1934. This was by no means a totally-defining moment within the identification process, but it was another point to be considered. Many types of tradesman have this trait, including carpenters, metal workers, plumbers and line workers, whose livelihood depends on strong hands to hold and work tools. Regarding the St. Raymond’s fresh grave footprint, you’re convinced that it could not have been made by Hauptmann, right? The complete evidence picture doesn’t bear that out conclusively, Michael. The simple fact is we don’t don’t know for sure if it was made by Hauptmann and we don’t know for sure it wasn’t. This is the kind of hazy evidence picture you can go head over heels to prove or disprove if it helps your point. We don’t even know if Hauptmann had the same pair of shoes in September 1934 that he might have been wearing in April of 1932. As an aside, I am a size 9 to 9-1/2 and among my shoes, I have a size 10 pair of composite toe work boots as well as a size 8 pair of loafers. Why do the loafers fit me so well? Simply because they’re a bit wider and have a more rounded toe than the rest of my shoes. Think about that when you're splitting hairs over half sizes based on a sliding impact made into relatively soft ground. Condon felt very strongly that Hauptmann was CJ when he saw him at Greenwich Station. He was also convinced there were accomplices still at large so he felt genuinely concerned for his personal safety and that of his family, as indicated by his well-documented lament to Agent Turrou. This was the first time he had ever expressed such a level of concern after many previous identification processes. Two-and-a-half years of time and physical change had elapsed since Condon and CJ had met and he wanted to be absolutely certain. He was genuinely concerned that Hauptmann’s life essentially hung in the balance over what he had to say. If Condon clearly didn’t believe Hauptmann was CJ, as he had concluded with other individuals in previous requests to identify potential suspects, he would have stated such then and there. He was also clearly upset by the news reporter and cameramen mayhem the police had allowed to manifest at Greenwich Station, and in some ways he was rebelling, as he admitted later, against the enormous pressure to immediately identify Hauptmann as CJ, rightfully believing the process was not being conducted fairly towards either the accused or himself. Balanced viewpoint here, anyone?
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Post by aaron on Aug 7, 2021 10:55:36 GMT -5
Also in "Dark Corners" vol. 2: John Condon's responses to the questions given to him at the Grand Jury Investigation are examined in Michael Melsky's "Dark Corners" vol. 2. As we have already recognized, Condon's descriptions of Cemetery John vary so much that arriving at an exact portrait of the man (or even an approximate portrait) is nearly impossible, but he does make some comments worthy of examination. Cemetery John, he claimed, was a "sick man" physically, and specific details of the illness corroborated by unchanged details could indicate the type of illness. Condon was not a medical doctor; his advanced degree was in pedagogy. Yet he attempted to diagnose John's condition and believed it to be a pulmonary disorder. I am not a member of the medical profession but have examined the details given by Condon to the Grand Jury and also those which appear in Coleman's unpublished work "Vigil." The symptoms mentioned resemble those suffered by patients with congenital syphilis. In particular, the description of John's hands matches those of individuals with syphilis: "the fingers are long, and the hands appear to be 'ordinary," but Condon claimed that "the finger tips appeared. . .just as if disease such as pulmonary inroad" might seem. The swelling at the base of the thumbs could have been caused by syphilis not an unusual symptom. Images of hands affected by this disease appear on-line. Also symptomatic is a protruding mandible (lower jaw), also mentioned in relation to CJ. At one point Condon said that CJ's face looked like a triangle with the lower angle lopped off. Characteristic also is inflammation of the cornea, causing tear drops. Condon reports seeing tears on CJ's face. The problem with the corneas results in squinting of the eyes of the affected person. Condon reported that the eyes of CJ squinted like those of a Chinese or Japanese person. Condon reported that CJ told him that "he was only a go-between, that he had no record but was recruited because the group "had something on him." It's possible that Number 1 and Number 2 of the gang CJ mentions knew of his syphilitic condition and would spread the information if he refused to cooperate. At that time (1932) syphilis was treated with salvarsan. Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in 1929 , it was not used to treat syphilis until the early 1940s. Cj was indeed a sick man, but a bottle the cough syrup Condon suggested would have been of little use to a man with an illness as serious as congenital syphilis. Continuing on with this position: since Dr. Condon's descriptions of Cemetery John do vary from time to time, we turn to the disinterested description of Robert Riehl, the cemtery guard who observed Condon and CJ conversing. According to Michael's "Dark Corner" vol. 2 Riehl described CJ was being about 22 years old, 5'3 inches tall, 135 pounds with a slim build. In July of 1932 (3 months later) Riehl described CJ as being 5.6" tall, about 130 pounds and 23-24 years old. This statement describes a man much younger and lighter in weight than Richard Hauptmann.
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Post by Michael on Aug 7, 2021 11:02:11 GMT -5
Joe-
In your reply, you are not only ignoring certain facts, you are making things up. It’s hard to have a legitimate discussion under these circumstances.
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Post by aaron on Aug 7, 2021 11:15:05 GMT -5
Continuing on the point just made: The description of Riehl does fit John Mohrdieck as earlier posts have suggested. According to Mohrdieck's Declaration of Intention, He would have been just 26 years old in March 1932. He was 5'7" inches tall and weighed 126 pounds, surprisingly slender for an adult man. He had only a fourth grade education in Germany, again surprisingly since most of his friends completed school through the eighth grade, the equivalent of our middle school. His hair was brown and his eyes gray. He arrived with his mother Betty from the German Empire (Schonebeck) when he was 18 years old. There is no mention of a father. Mohrdieck's description and his failure to continue schooling after reaching the equivalent of the fourth grade suggest serious health problems. Several earlier posts have attempted to identify a genetic disease or childhood disease that he might have inherited to explain his appearance and lack of education. A photo was taken of his twenty-first birthday party dated March 1931 as he stands next to Isidor Fisch in the back row, his hand resting on the shoulder of the person standing on his left side. The hand resembles that of one afflicted with congenital syphilis and also matches Condon's description of the hand and finger-tips. In the photo we do not observe a thumb, but swelling in the thumb and finger digits are common in this disease. The names of both Isidor Fisch and John Mohrdieck (and only these two names) were given by Richard Hauptmann in his final appeal to the Court of Pardons. It is quite possible that John Mohrdieck was indeed the man called Cemetery John.
Also, given his height he very likely wore a size 8 shoe.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2021 15:21:55 GMT -5
Joe- In your reply, you are not only ignoring certain facts, you are making things up. It’s hard to have a legitimate discussion under these circumstances. What certain facts am I ignoring and what am I making up?
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Post by Wayne on Aug 7, 2021 18:28:23 GMT -5
How can you say this while simultaneously believing Condon was an honest guy? Here are just some examples: No lump.
Footprint did not match.
Condon originally did NOT identify him.
Condon took off to Florida to searching to place the blame on somebody else. These aren’t innocent “mistakes” or “oversights.“ You are trying to have your cake and eat it to. It’s one or the other. Either Hauptmann was CJ or Condon was lying. Balanced viewpoint here, anyone? Let me jump in with 2 questions: 1) If Condon was part of the kidnap and/or extortion gang and was working with Hauptmann, why would he give such a perfect description of Cemetery John from his very first statement that matches Hauptmann so accurately? Why wouldn't he give a description of a Leprechaun, something totally different from the someone he was working with? 2) If Condon was part of the kidnap and/or extortion gang, why didn't he simply clear Hauptmann by saying that Hauptmann wasn't the person he saw at the cemetery?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 7, 2021 19:26:55 GMT -5
Balanced viewpoint here, anyone? Let me jump in with 2 questions: 1) If Condon was part of the kidnap and/or extortion gang and was working with Hauptmann, why would he give such a perfect description of Cemetery John from his very first statement that matches Hauptmann so accurately? Why wouldn't he give a description of a Leprechaun, something totally different from the someone he was working with? 2) If Condon was part of the kidnap and/or extortion gang, why didn't he simply clear Hauptmann by saying that Hauptmann wasn't the person he saw at the cemetery? Very relevant questions Wayne. I believe Condon, while not a medical doctor, was more than qualified to judge a subject's physical characteristics based on his many years experience in physical education and very close interaction with CJ, considering the many times he physically engaged and assessed him over the approximately one hour and fifteen minutes in which they met. Yes, the physical descriptions considering the low light conditions of that evening, very accurately match those of Hauptmann. This was an average sized man (close to 5' 9" in height) and no slight-of-frame and lightweight body type, as is often implied. Many point to the apparently racking cough exhibited by CJ as a means of distancing Hauptmann from this person. Having smoked many years ago and like millions of others, having received my fair share of seasonal bouts of colds and deep chest coughs, I consider this a relatively moot point.
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Post by Michael on Aug 7, 2021 20:02:55 GMT -5
What certain facts am I ignoring and what am I making up? Condon told Special Agent Turrou that he was " not going to identify the man because he was doubtful whether Hauptmann was John." " He asserted that the real John was killed long ago and that the money was taken away from him by his confederates. He intimated that the real men who are responsible for the kidnaping and murder of the Lindbergh child are now somewhere in Long Island, around Bayshore." (V2, Pages 312-13). You ignore this in order to sell a story that just isn't true. Why do you do this Joe? Do you forget or simply hope everyone else will? Next, there is absolutely no source that attributes the "lump" Condon claimed existed had anything to do with a "a thenar eminence muscle." This is merely something that you've invented. If not, please post the state police source because I haven't seen it. Next, Condon checked everyone who was ever a suspect for this lump. He asserted it was an identifying attribute. He also claimed many other things at various times. This would include the "mutton chop hand" you mentioned. Hauptmann had neither a lump nor a mutton chop hand. Never had either before the crime, during the crime, or after the crime. If so please give me your source. Fact is there are none. I could go on and on. YOU claim to believe Condon. Yet, you have to invent or ignore things in order to make him appear to be honest. Look at what he said and did. Stop pretending you don't see what's right in front of you. Same with the footprint. It did NOT match Hauptmann's size. So he was either lying about that too, or it Hauptmann wasn't CJ. This idea that the NJSP seized every shoe Hauptmann ever owned in order to compare it to those casts, matched them, but then chose not to use them in Court is asinine.
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Post by Michael on Aug 7, 2021 20:16:51 GMT -5
Let me jump in with 2 questions: I'd refer you to V2. I answer all questions in the book. Next, I don't agree with the assertion that he gave a "perfect description." What he did was do what most good liars do. He mixed in fact with fiction. For example, Hauptmann was not "Scandinavian." Hauptmann had no lump on either (or both) thumb(s). As I've written in response to Joe, he told Turrou it wasn't him. Then he used that line about CJ being dead because he "borrowed" that idea from previous interactions thinking they might buy it. That's something criminals do and guilty people do. And so, he could have gave a description of Jesus Christ but if he was there in front of him and denied it was him how in God's name does that support your position? Have you ever seen a picture of Garelick? He DID look like a Leprechaun! How about Simek? Think he looks like Hauptmann? And yet, Condon identified him. That is until he found out it couldn't have been him then changed his mind. Again, I've got a whole book filled to the brim with facts and information, all footnoted, which exemplify this guy was a liar and did everything humanly possible to protect Hauptmann. It came down to either him or Hauptmann. Had he not been painted into a corner like that he would have never testified as he did.
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Post by jeanne on Aug 7, 2021 22:00:46 GMT -5
John Condon did not drive a car but relied on others for transportation (Al Reich, for example) and on public buses usually available. I am wondering why he did not own a car and drive himself. He may have had some serious memory problems related to his age, , or perhaps concussion suffered during sports activity. True, he may have been dissembling deliberately, but he also may have been creatively filling in details, having forgotten what really happened and then forgot the creative details when telling the story later. The details concerning the Tuckahoe lady vary so much that it's difficult to get any impression of her appearance. While he certainly could be lying for reasons of his own, I wonder if his inability to drive has anything to do with his memory problems.
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