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Post by Michael on Apr 24, 2006 7:08:41 GMT -5
I wonder why Schwarzkopf would tell Junge not to tell anyone about whatever it was she had on Sharp?
Even Hoover expressed an opinion of this being an "inside job" and when one reads internal communications, as opposed to prepared public documents, then its important to note that after Gov. Hoffman re-investigated this case - Hoover gives an appearance of assisting but in reality is keeping himself (and his Agency) at an arms length away.
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Post by rickIII trooperII on Apr 24, 2006 10:11:22 GMT -5
theon Wright sums it up for me:
"Many errors, omissions, and certainly mistakes in judgment were made by the NJSP (Schwartzkopf) and FBI (Hoover) that allowed the LKC to drag on for many years. There were two errors at the very inception of the case however, so obvious and fundamental, that one wonders why they occured. The first was the immediate assumtion that the extortionists in the Bronx were responsible for the kidnap and the second: the hasty identification of the baby found on Mt. Rose Road.as Charlie Jr" page 230 (bolding mine).
The above quote is the Understatement of the Century--rg
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Post by Michael on Apr 25, 2006 17:14:07 GMT -5
I think Wright is wrong including Hoover at this point. He assumed nothing because he wasn't really involved. The assumption that John is connected to the Kidnapping comes directly with the production of the Secret Symbol although they are still dealing with Curtis as if he too is in connection with the Kidnappers.
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Post by wcollins on May 8, 2006 9:38:18 GMT -5
It would repay reading John Douglas's account of Violet and her suicide in his "The Cases That Haunt Us." He is a hardheaded investigator who presumably knows a good deal about crime scences, interrogations, and evasive answers. He doesn't believe for a minute that she committed suicide because of harassment. p. 161. "I don't believe we can dismiss Violet that easily or what I suspect was her link in the chain of intelligence information that made the kidnapping possible. This is something that should be kept in mind as we examine the subsequent occurrences in the case."
Well-put
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Post by wcollins on May 8, 2006 9:41:04 GMT -5
I forgot to add that Douglas thinks she began putting together the pieces, and her unintended role in the crime. If we pursue that angle, even without finding out who her contacts were, we are led to see that this was not a simple case of a single perp kidnapping from a lonely house in the wood.
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Post by thomas for wc on May 8, 2006 15:04:20 GMT -5
rereadi ng that too. defininitly think l. borden did it. Douglas also points out that people don't act out of character. think of lindbergh, condon and hauptman? who was and wasn't acting in character?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on May 11, 2006 18:21:23 GMT -5
Mairi to wc. Would like to read that. Am inclined to think V. Sharp may have been more directly involved. Also believe the same of O. Whately. He could readily have handed the baby out the window to one or more outside and then hastily wiped down fingerprints and beat a fast retreat to his end of the house.My thoughts go to his and Sharp being seen at the same eatery and/ or the den of Chief Yellow Feather. Also suspect Fisch as CJ. Keep thinking the plan had been for a brief kidnap, immediate ransom and return of the baby. Because this didn't pan out as planned we see Sharp crumbling and after baby found dead drinks the poison rather than risk going to prison. Can't see BRH involved with the kidnap or knowingly having ransom money.
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Post by wcollins on May 12, 2006 10:35:24 GMT -5
Douglas's point is not that V S was part of a large conspiracy of Lindbergh employees, but rather that she realized in horror that she might have given information out that made the kidnapping possible. IOW that one of her contacts that day might have been connected to the kidnapping. This would take the case outside the household (except in a peripheral fashion) and into other areas, i.e. an outside group.
This group may have had inside information, and having established VS as a contact inside the house, acted. How many people had to be rounded up, so to speak -- in volunteer fire department fashion? Etc.
At least that is where I think Douglas was going with his argument.
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Post by steve romeo on May 13, 2006 12:25:40 GMT -5
heres something in the fbi files pertaining to the abortion and something else she might have leaked-----when asked directly if she had not been friendly with a newspaper reporter by the name of mckelvie employed by the daily news, new york city, she admitted that she had been out several times with mckelvie. according to inspector walsh, mckelvie had made the statement that violet sharpe furnished him the first info from the morrow home as to the sex of the lindbergh baby when all newspapers were clamoring for this info, and that this tip from violet enabled mckelvie to score a beat in that he furnished the info to his paper five hours before any of the other newspapers. violet would not answer questions as to whether she had furnished mckelvie the above info.------accordintg to a informant, presently employed at the englewood residence of the morrow family, violet sharpe spent a great deal of her time in the company of septimus banks, the morrow butler; they appeared to bein love with each other and several months prior to the kidnapping violet sharpe underwent an abortion operation necessitated by her intimacy with banks.
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Post by rick3 on May 13, 2006 12:50:16 GMT -5
Steve---WADR, so what? This isnt exactly the end of the road for Inviolet?
I presume the abortion is unrelated in any way to Charlies disappearance? Seems like Violet was busy dating many other men, mostly named Earnie, and that Septimus was an item of the past? Violets health takes a dive "after May 12th", not before.
And who pray tell would not know the sex of a baby named Charles Lindbergh Jr.?
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Post by steve for rick on May 13, 2006 15:01:30 GMT -5
typical of you to jump the gun. the baby wasnt named right away, plus i promised mike id post the abortion paragraph in the fbi files
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Post by jack on May 21, 2006 20:14:07 GMT -5
I've been reading Joyce Milton's book "Loss of Eden." It's an interesting and provocative book.
On page 263, Milton writes that FBI files on the Lindbergh case indicate that Betty Gow apparently visited Violet Sharpe in her, Sharpe's, room to try to cheer her up the night before Sharpe committed suicide. The conversation apparently ended with Sharpe sobbing that she had killed her own child and that she was going to be blamed for the death of the Lindbergh baby. Does anyone on the board know if this account has been verified? Was it Gow or another servant? Does it seem odd that Gow is involved in a discussion of this sort with Sharpe the night before she dies?
On page 274, Milton writes that a 1930 Buick Brogham stolen in Lakewood, New Jersey, in January 1932 was recovered on 149th Street outside the Plymouth Apartments on March 2, 1932, a day after the kidnapping. Two bathrobes, a knife, and a milk bottle with attached rubber tubing were found in the car. A female witness reported that the car had been left at the location by a blond, pop-eyed man. Would Norman Whitaker have fit this description in 1932?
As reported throughout the book, the Burns Detective Agency was involved in jobs to protect J.P. Morgan partners, to search for Frances St. John Smith at the time Anne attended Smith, to protect Constance Morrow and investigate of the threat against her while she was at the Milton Academy, to guard the North Haven residence when Anne and Jon were in residence, etc. Gaston Means was reputed to be an "operative" of the agency at one time. Does this connection seem odd? Does anyone know if the agency was employed to investigate the crime by the Morrow family or family friends? Have any relationships between Burns personnel and servants at Highfields or Next Day Hill ever been uncovered?
Much of what is presented in this book seems not to have been treated by other authors. Was Milton on target?
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Post by rick3 on May 22, 2006 4:20:04 GMT -5
Jack/ good post/ any dynamic between Gow and Sharpe should be examined. Someone says that Sharpe although a scullery maid is the most popular at Next Day. she seems rather unscathed by the whole abortion issue prior to the Walsh interviews and Charlies body on Mt. Rose. Shes dating multiple men, seems fiesty and self assured.
Betty Gow has flown under the radar all this while/ often because of her undying love for Charlie. But she too must be considered as more than just an innocent bystander. We have no way of knowing if she did talk to Violet that what she reported is accurate or not edited by others. She could just as easily have been increasing poor Violets angst rather than acting as best friend?
I fail to see how Charlies kidnap plays upon her guilt for any supposed but not proven abortion. Its possible I suppose. But why would Violet get blamed for Charlies demise unless she was repeatedly told this over and over by others/ maybe she was pushed over the edge on purpose. Betty Gow herself is a key player in whatever happened/ she is as good a player for insider and may have been CYAing the same manner as Condon? Red Johnson;s brother claimed that Red "loved" Betty but she never flinched when he was deported back to Sweden/Norway? As Reilly observed shes a "tough cookie".
As for Gaston Means, it always seemed odd to Evalyn Walsh McClean that Means had some priviledged insider info on Condon and the ransom money "tossed over a hedge" in the Bronx before it was known publicly? means named Irving Fenton as his contact in NYC/
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 22, 2006 9:09:05 GMT -5
Rick, I am not a firm believer in the necessity for an inside connection, but I think your post is worthy of an exalt.
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Post by Michael on May 22, 2006 10:02:27 GMT -5
Jack, I want to echo Rick and compliment the both the observations and questions.... Milton's book has a lot of this stuff within its pages. The general references to the "FBI" files really hurts because when discussing their reports it is very important to locate the exact one. Often the FBI were "reporting" a summary of information that was sometimes gleaned from the Newspapers and/or other 3rd party sources. Special Agents would write their individual reports - then usually someone would write a summary (of sorts) rounding out all relevant facts and/or information developed to be delivered to the Inspectors then on to Hoover - usually the SAC would be the Author of this "summary." Then there were memos and letters aside from the reports. We have to remember they were being shut-out from most of the source investigations and it was their investigation of Sharp, made against Lindbergh's will, which ultimately led to harsh criticism and complaints from both Lindbergh and Schwartzkopf. We have to also remember that the FBI would withdrawal and then return later - but they were never a full partner in this investigation with the NJSP. Anyway, your "Gow" question requires further study and I will start on this as soon as I can.....I too would like to track down this source. Your 2nd question is concerning Schindler's Car. As an "update" on the topic I placed one of my old posts in the Archive section here: lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=michael&action=display&thread=1148308705I have more on this if anyone wants to know something specific. I think this car could very well have been involved due to the weird series of circumstances but then again, we seem to have these all over the place so one never knows. On your 3rd question.... Yes, Burns Detective Agency did investigate the Constance Morrow threat. Means had worked for Burns in both the FBI and Burn's Detective Agency. People have been trying to make the connection between Means, Rosner, and Nosovitzky for a while now and I also saw this as one of Casimir Palmer's pet theories. (Palmer was a PI who investigated and offered his information to Governor Hoffman during his "re-investigation" of the case.) I believe I might even have some copies of the Burns Agency's actual investigation into this matter if you are interested....
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Post by jack on May 22, 2006 20:28:01 GMT -5
Rick and Michael,
Thanks for responding to my post. Michael in response to my question about the Burns detective agency you mention Means, Rosner, and Nosovitsky. I thought Means and Whitaker were teamed up in the swindle of McClean. Does Nosovitsky have a relationship with Means or with the Burns agency? That's interesting.
The witness who spoke with police about the car on 149th street said a man with blond hair and popeyes about 40 years of age left the car there. From pictures I've seen of Whitaker when he was older, I wonder if he could have been the person who abandoned the car.
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Post by rick3 on May 23, 2006 10:41:05 GMT -5
Jack/ I want to reply to your post before it gets lost in the "fluff"-----
It is just a coincidence but Robert Aldinger called me today and also encouraged reading Loss of Eden by Joyce Milton...Ill have to find a copy.
Essentially, Roberts Story centers on Fred Aldinger and the disappearance of Bobby Aldinger. Briefly, CAL pays Fred "Fritz" Aldinger and BRH to steal Charlie in 1931--the source of thier easy money. Apparently, Fritz is hooked up with Isador Fisch at Hunters island and represents the tall blond Austrian mentioned by BRH. Fritz accompanies Fisch on some ransom money sales at the pool hall? Robert says the most accurate description of the Aldinger family is in "Loss of Eden"? [2nd would be the Forward of Lindberghs of Minnesota] when CAL changes his name to Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr to gain the Trust money.
Robert also implicates Henry Leopold.
Was the 1930 Buick Broughan "green"?? Who was the origninal owner?
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Post by jack on May 23, 2006 20:15:35 GMT -5
Rick,
Sorry, but Milton does not mention the color or report the original owner of the Buick.
Michael, in his post of June2004, reports that the car was a brown 1926 Buick Brougham owned by a person named Schindler who owned a hotel in Lakewood, NJ. I am amazed by the informatioon about this crime he and other contributors to this board have at their command.
Milton devotes about a page and a half to the relationship between Hauptmann and the Aldinger family. My impression is that Fred Aldinger was a relatively young person in the mid 1920s.
Jack
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Post by Michael on May 27, 2006 8:33:49 GMT -5
Jack, Well I have finally wrapped up my pursuit of finding the source for the Gow/Sharp issue. Nothing. What I find interesting is that by all accounts Gow and Sharp weren't close so if this is true I would like to find out more, however, I am not willing to accept it yet until such time something else turns up to support it. However, in the course of this research I once again read the information on Marie Cummings and I have to say I am still very perplexed about this situation. I mean.... if she is "let go" because CJr. "declined" under her care - why on earth is she brought back in any capacity to have Jon left in her care? The Nosovitsky/Means/Rosner connection was one line of investigation taken up by Palmer. If you are interested I could look up what he found out (or thought he found out). The Means/Whitaker angle is an interesting one as well. If you start to dig here you wind up in China - its that deep. This is why most simply "touch" on it and quickly dismiss it as a good old fashioned swindle by a complex and cunning con-man. And he was. However, as with anything else - I say we shouldn't over-look this line of investigation its just that there is so damn much on him its hard to focus. You may be interested to know that Whitaker would later contact Governor Hoffman and plead his case to him AND started to befriend Wendel gleaning what information he could from him and passing it along to Hoffman. What tangled web of circumstances.... On the eyewitness account of the driver of Schindler's stolen car....The FBI Summary seems to have the information correct on her. Regardless, I find the original eyewitness accounts are probably the most reliable so I will add the exact details from her first interview made by Detective Dunn of the Jersey City Police: Interviewed Mrs. Dorothy Stephens of the same address who states that on March 2nd she was making the bed in the front room of her apartment on the second floor of that address. She had just turned on the radio for the 11 a.m. program and hearing a car pull up in front of the house sounding like an old Buick, because she formerly owned one, her curiosity was aroused and looking out of the window saw a man get out of the drivers seat walk around the front of the car to the opposite side and appear to lock the door. She thought it strange as the window of the door was left open. She watched the man walk down 149th Street in the direction of Amsterdam Avenue and when about five hundred yards or so from the car turned around and looked at it. She described the man as being about 5'7" or 9", clean shaven, about 30 years old, slender build, dark complexion, well dressed with dark clothes and overcoat and light grey hat. She could not venture a statement as to the man's nationality. Also. corroborated Mrs. Bleisch's story as to the condition of the car and also that the rear lights in the back of the car were lit, the tail light was lit and the shades drawn down completely around the rear. This latter statement was corroborated by the officers and Mrs. Bleisch. Rick, Tell Bob to start posting. I am not sure if Fred was "Fritz" but I do know that PI Braun was investigating Fred and his possible connection. I gave those reports to him and Mike Holfeld a while back so maybe this is where his ideas on that are coming from.
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Post by jack on May 27, 2006 9:33:28 GMT -5
Michael,
Thank-you for researching this issue. Had it panned out I'd have concluded that Gow was a main player in the crime. It just seemed sinister that she'd have been talking to Sharpe the night before the suicide. If it wasn't Gow, who was it? Did a conversation of any sort occur or is Milton speculating? It seems likely some member of the staff would try to talk to a despondent Sharpe. The answer to who might lead to some sort of understanding what that person's intent was, to help or to unsettle. The more I look at this case the more questions arise.
Your information on a Whitaker/Wendel connection is interesting. As I understand your comment, Whitaker goes to Hoffmann to plead his, Whitaker's, own case. Is it as a result of this meeting that Whitaker undertakes to befriend Wendel to obtain information? Is Hoffmann playing Whitaker here or is Whitaker playing Hoffmann?
The car on 149th Street is problematic. An identification of the driver on the night it was abandoned would identify a participant in the crime. Why would an accomplice in the crime leave it at an address that later plays into the investigation and involves another possible co-conspirator? Was it part of a frame up? And if it was who was the intended victem? It obviously wasn't Hauptmann at this point. Was it Duane Baker and by connection Ellerson? Both had criminal records and would have fit the bill.
With regard to Fred Aldinger, how old was he in 1932?
Please accept my thanks again for the work you do.
Jack
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Post by Michael on May 30, 2006 18:52:52 GMT -5
According to Detective Meade, NJSP, Fred was 27 in November of '34 and Rudolph was 21. We could probably get an exact date of birth from Bob if he decides to start posting again. Another source would be Siglinde...she has a steel-trap memory and probably wouldn't even have to look this up.
Exactly. It's a non-fiction version of Alice in Wonderland.
Whitaker wrote letters to everyone it seems. I have (2) that he wrote to Lindbergh. His wife also wrote to Lindbergh. Whitaker also wrote to Condon in addition to Wendel. Wendel and Hoffman wrote back. You see, Hoffman kept an open line of communication with anyone he felt might be able to reveal any amount of truth - however slight. One thing the Governor was after from Whitaker was the whereabouts of Mrs. McLean's $104,000.
One of the most interesting aspects of this case was Gov. Hoffman's re-investigation. I think its mostly misunderstood and people who are interested in the case seem to have a preconceived notion that he was "hiring" all these PI's and that he believed Hauptmann was innocent, etc. etc.
You've touched on an angle I believe needs more attention. I have seen both Joe and Gary taking a closer look at this in the past and know they are quite interested in this too.
Also consider that some may dispute the car, its theft, its timing, and its abandoned location - as coincidence.
I am not among them.
It could be a frame-up or a "safe" area or familiar territory for whoever ditched the car there and/or used the J.J. Faulkner name on the deposit slip.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 9, 2006 18:51:21 GMT -5
Likely this has been suggested before. Re: CAL's controlling questioning of the servants/Englewood and Hopewell. Was something already obvious(or growingly so) that something was wrong with the baby and CAL didn't want that slipping out? Might V. Sharpe have let the cat out of the bag to the people she was out with on 1 March? Then she gets back hears of the kidnap. I can well imagine there were cautions by their all employers about what not to discuss with anyone (the baby and other things). Then Sharpe really panics and lies to the police about where she was and with whom? As we've seen the autopsy report speaks of an unusually large head for a child that age. Does anyone else find the doctor's letter to one of the grandmothers (I think 8 days before the corpse is found) anything but peculiar as can be??? (Ronelle's board). It's as if the baby isn't even missing! And then as a P.S. the doctor says not to respond to his letter. (I believe I've described it correctly-but better go back and take another look )
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Post by Michael on Aug 10, 2006 5:20:29 GMT -5
Whether you're right or wrong I think this is an insightful observation and with it can come many variations..... Too often we look at the strange things as if they all apply directly or indirectly to the kidnapping - which they might. Then comes the two sides - one defending actions and the other tearing them to shreads - in the context of the crime.
However, considering your very point above, these actions may have nothing to do with the Crime but another "side-issue" concerning personal family matters.
Now if this is the case (you know how my brain works) then this issue is obviously more important then finding the child - in my opinion. One would think CAL would want everyone put under the lie-detector test immediately if not sooner under the circumstances.
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Post by Bob on Aug 10, 2006 7:11:09 GMT -5
I agree. I think of Marc Klass who says when your child is missing you do everything and anything to get it back. Why would L. open the letter and ignore involving the cops but turn around and not utilize them at all? He was very intelligent wasn't he? The staff seems so obvious, whetrer or not they were involved,right? It was like they were out with the dogs.
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Post by rick3 on Oct 28, 2006 13:30:11 GMT -5
Michael--I agree that Lloyd Gardner remains our best source on any timelines. But how many other errors are there in Det. Harry Walshes Jersey Journal articles written only 6 months later? They should have been fresh in his mind? In the last two installments Harry Walsh alludes to "secrets he cant yet reveal"?? Why not, and were they revealed after BRH was arrested? One other mistake is that Harry places the holes in the singnature "inside the blue circles"--this is just wrong. Pretty sloppy.
II. With regard to Violets suicide on June 10th at Next Day Hill, when Violet fainted upon hearing that Walsh wanted her picked up and taken to the Police Station at Alpine NJ to face Ernie Brinkert...."Albert Springer told Margarite Junge to give her an asprin"!!! Yikes, that was the last asprin Violet ever took? And on top of her bad throat too?
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Post by Giszmo on Oct 28, 2006 15:24:10 GMT -5
"Albert Springer told Margarite Junge to give her an asprin"!!! Yikes, that was the last asprin Violet ever took? (Rick)
Isn't that what killed Bruce Lee?
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Oct 28, 2006 20:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by sue75 on Oct 28, 2006 21:00:06 GMT -5
For Rick, In answer to your question about the person who posted about Dr. Mitchell saying it was a gunshot wound before Michael's board went down last year -- Try this: www.archive.orgThe Internet Archive WayBack Machine has select post titles and authors from Michael's old board, but it looks as if though the texts no longer exist. web.archive.org/web/*/http://forum.onecenter.com/yz12/I hope you can get through on the above site. Sue
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Oct 29, 2006 1:34:09 GMT -5
thanks Sue/ it looks at first like there are only 3 pages of headings for February 2005. The string or thread we are looking to find is in December 2005? Nevertheless, its a fascinating site. Its interesting to read back what the buzz was then, and how many times we repeat ourselves on the same topic? Right off the bat I see a string about Arthur Denzler.
II. As for the untimely death of Violet Sharpe, maybe we should apply the same standards of evidence for Violet that we tried to apply to Charlie Jr?
1. Who was present in the Englewood house the morning of June 10th? Were all parties officially interviewed? 2. Where was everyone located during the official reenactment? 3. What room and floor was Violet in when she expired? How did she come to be there? Where was she running from? 4. Why did Dwight Jr. carry her body back upstairs? Was this before or after the doctors arrived? Who signed the death cert? 5. Was an official autopsy performed to determine the cause, manner, mechanism and time of death? 6. Was there a coroners jury or inquest to confirm all this? 7. Did any other party present have the means, motive or opportunity to hand Violet the glass of silver polish? 8. After all, Violet had reportedly lost over 50 pounds during the period 28 April to 23 May according to Walsh? From what? 9. Was Violet reporting some kind of sore or poisoned throat prior to June 10th? In a letter to her sister perhaps? 10. Did CAL arrive and find the potassium chloride hidden in her room? From where did Violet obtain the glass of water? 11. What other person or persons had prior knowledge of the potassium chloride? 12. It seems unlikely that Hercule Poirot or Ellis Parker would have immediately confirmed suicide without checking out all other possibilities--even at the Morrow Estate. But then we really didnt have any real detectives now did we?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Oct 29, 2006 16:27:30 GMT -5
Rick~Re:your focus on V. Sharp's death On the edge of that anyway---Do we know how long she had worked there? ("planned for a year already") Something she may have divulged? (waited "until the child was stronger")
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