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Post by scathma on Jul 6, 2017 18:58:44 GMT -5
One thing that has always troubled me about Violet's suicide is the fact that she supposedly drank the poison in her room and then came running downstairs. If her intent was to kill herself, why didn't she just lay down on her bed and die? Why run out of your room and down the stairs to find someone? And is it merely coincidence that CAL was present at the time she decided to take the poison...?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jul 6, 2017 19:33:44 GMT -5
Amy, it would be a virtual impossibility for someone to just lay peacefully and die after ingesting a large dose of potassium cyanide, while experiencing the feeling that every cell in your being was now being violently suffocated. I can well understand how Violet, having realized the gravity of what she had just done, was now desperately seeking help that just couldn't be had by that time.
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Post by kate1 on Jul 6, 2017 19:57:29 GMT -5
Any information Violet Sharp might have passed on to a third party would have been useful for the kidnappers/in-house conspirators (take your pick), Amy. John, What do you mean that the info would have been useful to "in-house" conspirators? Who are you referring to? The information we are talking about was Charlie staying at the Hopewell house on Tuesday night and Betty Gow being sent for to care for Charlie. That's the info that Violet had to share. Maybe it wasn't a guy-thing that was behind Violet's suicide. Perhaps she had something else in her life that she didn't want revealed. One thing that has always troubled me about Violet's suicide is the fact that she supposedly drank the poison in her room and then came running downstairs. If her intent was to kill herself, why didn't she just lay down on her bed and die? Why run out of your room and down the stairs to find someone? I think it was strange that she had that stuff in her closet that she reportedly had brought to the Morrow house from her previous job. For someone so cheeky with the police she was certainly "sensitive" about any supposed guilt she felt. Everything I've read about Violet makes me think there is definitely something more to be investigated. She had a huge amount of money in her bank account.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 21:59:45 GMT -5
And is it merely coincidence that CAL was present at the time she decided to take the poison...? Are you saying that CAL was in the Morrow house at the time Sharp killed herself or are you saying CAL was in Sharp's room when she drank the cyanide?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 22:05:48 GMT -5
Amy, it would be a virtual impossibility for someone to just lay peacefully and die after ingesting a large dose of potassium cyanide, while experiencing the feeling that every cell in your being was now being violently suffocated. I can well understand how Violet, having realized the gravity of what she had just done, was now desperately seeking help that just couldn't be had by that time. I don't think she would be resting peacefully. That is a terrible way to die. But if she is intent on killing herself, why wouldn't she stay in her room as agonizing as it would have been. Are you suggesting that Violet changed her mind about dying after drinking the cyanide??
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 22:29:16 GMT -5
I think it was strange that she had that stuff in her closet that she reportedly had brought to the Morrow house from her previous job. For someone so cheeky with the police she was certainly "sensitive" about any supposed guilt she felt. Everything I've read about Violet makes me think there is definitely something more to be investigated. She had a huge amount of money in her bank account. I think it is strange too that she would keep that polish in her personal closet. I hardly think she was in the habit of cleaning Mrs. Morrow's silver in her room. Violet did have a bank account of like $1,600. Violet was questioned about this sum. In Gardner Book, The Case That Never Dies on page 105, you can read how she explains all her saved money. Violet was very close with her sister, Edna and very protective of her. This is a relationship that needed closer scrutiny but Violet's death really hindered further investigative efforts by authorities. Violet did make a $500 deposit to her account in October of 1931 which she claimed was money that she had saved up. I have always wondered if it was not what Violet might have told but what Violet might have known that presented the real danger.
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Post by john on Jul 7, 2017 2:26:41 GMT -5
That wasn't the best way to say what I was trying to get at, Amy. I meant anything and everything that Violet knew about the Lindbergh-Morrows and their household help and something that might have happened before the actual kidnapping that Violet had heard of or knew about; that is, if one suspects that the crime was an inside job.
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Post by kate1 on Jul 7, 2017 5:16:22 GMT -5
I think it was strange that she had that stuff in her closet that she reportedly had brought to the Morrow house from her previous job. For someone so cheeky with the police she was certainly "sensitive" about any supposed guilt she felt. Everything I've read about Violet makes me think there is definitely something more to be investigated. She had a huge amount of money in her bank account. I think it is strange too that she would keep that polish in her personal closet. I hardly think she was in the habit of cleaning Mrs. Morrow's silver in her room. Violet did have a bank account of like $1,600. Violet was questioned about this sum. In Gardner Book, The Case That Never Dies on page 105, you can read how she explains all her saved money. Violet was very close with her sister, Edna and very protective of her. This is a relationship that needed closer scrutiny but Violet's death really hindered further investigative efforts by authorities. Violet did make a $500 deposit to her account in October of 1931 which she claimed was money that she had saved up. I have always wondered if it was not what Violet might have told but what Violet might have known that presented the real danger. Yes Amy, i agree! Her sister left for England about the time of the kidnapping. She had two trunks transferred from her former employers home (employer had died) to Englewood to Morrow home. Edna accompanied the taxi with the trunks and a friend. At that time she didn't visit with Violet. A little confusing but she told the apartment superintendent she was visiting for England but planned to return in a "few months". Wonder if Violet knew or suspected something about Edna. A fellow servant at the Morrow's told FBI Violet had an abortion and that she loved Banks. Strange about that huge bank account !
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jul 7, 2017 7:12:27 GMT -5
Are you confusing CAL with Dwight Morrow Jr.? I don't believe Lindbergh was at the Morrow home when Violet killed herself, but that he came back to find the place in an uproar and Septimus Banks quite drunk and incoherent, having fallen off the wagon again.
I'm not so sure it would have been a matter of her changing her mind more than her entire body simply screaming out for help. I believe by her very nature, her first reaction in this case would have been to seek help from anyone who might be able to help.
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Post by scathma on Jul 7, 2017 8:34:15 GMT -5
Are you confusing CAL with Dwight Morrow Jr.? I don't believe Lindbergh was at the Morrow home when Violet killed herself, but that he came back to find the place in an uproar and Septimus Banks quite drunk and incoherent, having fallen off the wagon again. Yo Colonel: You could be onto something here--maybe? CAL spent alot of unexplained nites at Next Day Hill rather than make the extra one hour drive home. Monday 29 Feb 32 for one? Now at what age does a man start milking the maidens? 25, 35, 45? I dont know but since it was true later, it could easily be true in '32. At least thats what Bill Clinton told me/ but there are 30 servants at Next Day including Betty Gow...so theres a certain chance. The second part of the question is also yes. But we will only know when more of the LKC mystery is revealed. Like where was Charlie taken, on what day, and by whome for 72 days? It is interesting that CAL insulated all the servants at Sorry Hill, but none at Next Day? Violet could have been in the planning stages of a kidnap with Fisch in the Bronx at the Harlem church, or could have given away pertinient info to the snappers. But both Dwight Jr and CAL were there the day Violet drank the poison so either one of them could have handed it to her. Nice thought huh? CAL found the glass in her room? The quote above was the result of a search of the board, but I will check my LKC library for the source that was the genesis for my comment...
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Post by scathma on Jul 7, 2017 8:51:46 GMT -5
From Gardner's TCTND blog:
"When the police came to take her away for questioning for a third time, they were sent to cool their heels in an office -- for half an hour --- (!), while someone fetched her. What had happened while they were kept in another room was she had staggered down into the butler's pantry and collapsed. Then the officers were taken to the study where Col Lindbergh and a Dr. Phillips met them and told them Violet was dead. Once again, the person in charge is Col Lindbergh. Once again it is Col Lindbergh who informs the police that there had been found a"partially filled can of Cyanide of Potassium Crystals on the shelf in Miss Sharp's room," along with a glass containing the remaining undissolved crystals and a discolored spoon. Only then - after all that -- did Captain Harry Walsh get admitted to the "death room," so to speak. So perhaps it would be a little uncomfortable to pursue that death."
caseneverdies.blogspot.com/2013/01/forensic-disputes.html
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Post by Wayne on Jul 7, 2017 9:48:23 GMT -5
Hi Scathma,
I just want to confirm that CAL was at Next Day Hill when Violet killed herself.
The third paragraph of the June 10, 1932 report (signed by Walsh, Keaten, Moffatt, and Horn) states: “Lieut. Keaten, Inspector Walsh, Dr. McClane, and Cpl. Horn then proceeded to the Study in the Morrow Home where we met Col. Lindbergh and Dr. Phillips of Englewood, N.J. who pronounced Miss Sharp dead. Cause of death undetermined at that time.”
Here’s something else interesting about June 10, 1932.
Why didn’t the Lindbergh’s have a memorial for Charlie and what happened to his ashes?
According to Milton (p. 261), she says: "He (CAL) and Anne had decided that the ashes should be scattered from an airplane over the Atlantic, quietly and without informing anyone else in advance in order to avoid attracting the notice of the newspapers." Then (according to Milton) CAL came back to Englewood early that morning and Violet killed herself (June 10). But according to Berg (p. 281), he says: "On the fifteen of August...What he told nobody except his wife was that he flew over the Atlantic Ocean, several miles out to sea, where he strewed his firstborn's ashes."
Anyone know for sure when CAL scattered his son’s ashes? June 10 or August 15?
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Post by scathma on Jul 7, 2017 11:13:20 GMT -5
Is it possible the decision was made in June to scatter the ashes but the actual scattering occurred in August? If Milton is the only source for the June date, it wouldn't be the first time she is the sole source of otherwise unsubstantiated information...
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Post by scathma on Jul 7, 2017 11:21:24 GMT -5
And is it merely coincidence that CAL was present at the time she decided to take the poison...? Are you saying that CAL was in the Morrow house at the time Sharp killed herself or are you saying CAL was in Sharp's room when she drank the cyanide? I meant present in the house, not that he was actually with her when she drank the cyanide... but wouldn't THAT be something; if CAL (or Dwight Jr. for that matter) was actually with her when she did it, as if she intended it to be a final retributive act in whatever unknown drama might have been transpiring between the two of them?
If so, and one were to know all the details behind such an intrigue, it would explain the drastic measure of her suicide better than the speculation we are currently left with...
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Post by julie0709 on Jul 7, 2017 12:48:53 GMT -5
Amy thanks for the input It's nice to know a little something about these figures mentioned in books I'm glad to know that Gustave was real and that at least something about this enigma pans out with info that can followed up on.
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Post by julie0709 on Jul 7, 2017 13:06:44 GMT -5
Is it me or does most of the players in this mystery seem wacky? Lindbergh, Swartzkopf, Violet Sharpe, Condon, and on and on.
My gut feeling reading about the unfortunate Violet Sharpe is that she was a common woman who feared being thrown out of a "cush" job because of her behavior. Come on now, affairs with 5 plus men (allegedly) abortion (allegedly) lying about being married? Then drinking poison on top of it? I can only hope that she didn't chose suicide and the poison was taken by mistake Something similar happened to Jack Pickford's young wife. She suffered 3 days in hospital before succumbing.
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Post by pzb63 on Jul 7, 2017 19:04:52 GMT -5
I'm the first to admit my knowledge on cyanide is non-existent, but I must ask the question: Is it at all possible that Violet only intended to take enough make herself ill, perhaps even to the extent of being re-hospitalised as she was at her wits end with questions, rather than actually kill herself?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 7:03:37 GMT -5
I'm the first to admit my knowledge on cyanide is non-existent, but I must ask the question: Is it at all possible that Violet only intended to take enough make herself ill, perhaps even to the extent of being re-hospitalised as she was at her wits end with questions, rather than actually kill herself? I am no authority on cyanide either but I think your question is worthy of consideration. I recall reading that when Violet learned that she was going to be taken for questioning, she went running to Banks and told him she would not go and then took a measuring cup from the pantry and ran upstairs. If she just wanted to kill herself why bother with a measuring cup?? She could just put some powder in the cup and add water, stir and drink. Maybe she did want to just end up in the hospital and not dead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 7:12:32 GMT -5
Is it possible the decision was made in June to scatter the ashes but the actual scattering occurred in August? Perhaps you are right about this. It may be that the Lindberghs held off with scattering the ashes until after the birth of Jon in August. I found this getty image with the caption that says Lindbergh flies for first time since the kidnapping. Getty has the image dated for August 1932. www.gettyimages.com/license/466704507
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Post by stella7 on Jul 8, 2017 8:44:49 GMT -5
Well, he flew the Sikorsky aircraft to look for the Boad Nelly, so that's not entirely accurate, but Amy you may be right about why they waited til August. I was always under the impression that they scattered the ashes just after he was cremated.
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Post by pzb63 on Jul 8, 2017 22:26:07 GMT -5
Thanks for your response Amy35. So on that line of thinking....that may explain why she came downstairs after taking it. She only wanted to be incapacitated enough to avoid questions(for whatever reasons, no judgment here), and came downstairs to start "becoming ill" so to speak.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 22:43:57 GMT -5
Well, he flew the Sikorsky aircraft to look for the Boad Nelly, so that's not entirely accurate, but Amy you may be right about why they waited til August. I was always under the impression that they scattered the ashes just after he was cremated. True. Lindbergh did fly to seek his son in April of 1932. What I think the newspaper meant was this was the first time Lindbergh was flying since his son was found dead. The only time I read about the ashes being scattered was in Joyce Milton's book. She has Lindbergh flying out the same morning that Violet Sharp killed herself and he returned to Englewood and found the house in an uproar. I really don't believe this is accurate. She has no footnote for this entry. With the birth of Jon, I just think August makes more sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 23:06:50 GMT -5
Thanks for your response Amy35. So on that line of thinking....that may explain why she came downstairs after taking it. She only wanted to be incapacitated enough to avoid questions(for whatever reasons, no judgment here), and came downstairs to start "becoming ill" so to speak. That could certainly have been the case. Violet might not have known how quickly cyanide could take her down, even if she used only a small amount. Maybe she thought she would be rushed to the hospital after she came down those stairs. She was just so desperate to avoid further questioning! Such a tragedy. Will we ever know what drove her to such a drastic act?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jul 9, 2017 7:23:22 GMT -5
Is it at all possible that Violet only intended to take enough make herself ill, perhaps even to the extent of being re-hospitalised as she was at her wits end with questions, rather than actually kill herself? (pzb63) This is a very interesting thought. Violet may have had no idea how lethal was the dose she was about to take. Obviously her self-poisoning was well beyond the acute level, but it seems possible she only meant to take enough to avoid additional questioning at that particular point in time. The one thing she does say though, ie, "they'll never take me again" or something to that effect, makes me think she had a pretty good indication about how lethal cyanide chloride and her intent was probably a final one. As a side note, it's pretty unsettling to realize now that any of the kids'chemistry sets which were common when I was growing up in the 60's, and which contained bottles of potassium or sodium cyanide, were potentially lethal in much the same way as was the silver cleaning compound Violet had easy access to.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 9, 2017 10:11:53 GMT -5
It was my impression that the ashes were disposed of immediately after the cremation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 19:29:03 GMT -5
It was my impression that the ashes were disposed of immediately after the cremation. Hurt, Please check out Michael's book, Chapter 15, In The Shadow of Death. On pages 319 & 320 Michael writes about the cremation and the ashes. You will read there that Lindbergh left the crematorium around 6:15 pm once the process was over. He did not wait for the ashes. He left specific instructions that Walter Swayze would be picking the ashes up and those ashes were to be released only to Walter Swayze. Just when they were picked up, I do not know. Thinking about it though, it would not surprise me if they remained either at the crematorium for a while or at the Swayze Funeral Home until a decision was made by the Lindberghs about where and when they would scatter those ashes.
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Post by kate1 on Jul 9, 2017 19:50:11 GMT -5
It was my impression that the ashes were disposed of immediately after the cremation. Hurt, Please check out Michael's book, Chapter 15, In The Shadow of Death. On pages 319 & 320 Michael writes about the cremation and the ashes. You will read there that Lindbergh left the crematorium around 6:15 pm once the process was over. He did not wait for the ashes. He left specific instructions that Walter Swayze would be picking the ashes up and those ashes were to be released only to Walter Swayze. Just when they were picked up, I do not know. Thinking about it though, it would not surprise me if they remained either at the crematorium for a while or at the Swayze Funeral Home until a decision was made by the Lindberghs about where and when they would scatter those ashes. Scott Berg says on the 15th of August, first time in 3 months since baby was discovered, CAL flew over the Atlantic, from New Jerseey, and scattered the ashes. He told no one but Anne. Waller sasaid that the superintendent of the crematorium told CAL that the ashes would remain there until a urn was ready. Jon was born the day after that flight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 20:25:48 GMT -5
Great find Kate. That explains it. Anne went into labor on the 15th of August. John was born on the 16th. Perfect!!
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Post by john on Jul 11, 2017 2:25:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Amy, Kate, Scath, Jack, Joe, Michael, et al. Some great posts on this thread. I've become a bit punchy Lindywise (sic) and have found the threads of discussion sometimes difficult to follow, more likely something to do with me than those who post here. There's so much information in this case, and when an assertion gets made,--who was where on what night, who knew who and when, whether it was possible for such and so to have happened under a particular set of circumstances--heck, I sometimes don't know how people can keep their heads from spinning,--to which I should add an LOL! Still, this is a great place and I hope to return shortly.
John
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 11, 2017 10:07:46 GMT -5
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Here you have CAL Sr. acting in a questionable manner again. His wife is going into labor on August 15, and rather than being there with her, he goes flying over the Atlantic to dispose of CAL Jr(?)'s ashes. You may think that the timing of the disposal of the ashes is befitting, but why would have waited three months with the ashes supposedly in Swayze's custody before doing something with them? And with all the hullabaloo and breaches of privacy and security that went down when the body was in Swayze's custody back in May, why would CAL Sr. be trusting Swayze to keep the ashes for three months before disposing of them?
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