jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 15, 2016 6:07:17 GMT -5
It's always seemed that having quite a few people involved as the conspiracy on here is developing into would mean that somebody over the many years since the crime would have snitched - death-bed confession or something of that sort. That hasn't happened.
The major factor which has always bothered me is CAL's getting of the money. In reality, especially where the life of Charley was involved, Charles could have raised 50k very quickly - probably closer to ten minutes on the telephone rather than the two weeks or whatever it took him.
Always made me think he knew right away that Jr. was dead.
Charles Lindbergh was a true realist. It could be that his advisors, Breckenridge or whoever, told him something like odds were that after the first hour if the kidnapping isn't solved there's an 80% chance the victim is dead, or some such thing. Of course we don't know that for sure, but it's a possibility. Lindbergh might have given up immediately.
Secondly withholding the extra 20k was directly contrary to instructions (as was calling the police) and that withholding was Lindbergh's call, not Condon's. Cal was sitting right in the car when Jafsie took not all of the money.
So did one of those faux pas result in the death of his child?
Either the entire crime story is a contrivance and has gotten plenty of exposure with no solutions, or it was all so outlandish in it's progression that it's beyond logic.
There is no why, there is only is.
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Post by Michael on Jan 15, 2016 6:42:44 GMT -5
Can't wait. As you know I've been waiting a decade. Are you doing anything special to accompany the release? No, but it's done. Just waiting for the Editor to finish then I will immediately send it to the Publisher. It's not about money but the facts I've found over the years that I am absolutely positive no one has ever seen before. If the only people who read it are Members of this Board that's fine with me. One thing for sure is I believe we'll all be light years ahead of everyone else on the subject regardless of the interpretation. And this is just the first Volume. If the reaction isn't what I expect then it will be the last, but if it's what I believe it will be then I have at least 2 more Volumes to write. It's always seemed that having quite a few people involved as the conspiracy on here is developing into would mean that somebody over the many years since the crime would have snitched - death-bed confession or something of that sort. That hasn't happened. We'd all hope this would have happened in order to solve this thing. But what is the reason everyone thinks it did not? Logging the most hours at Archives containing the subject might not guarantee who would but it certainly increases the odds. Besides the Archivist Mark Falzini, who has spent the most time there? We've all been led to believe the guy who spent a couple of weeks there knows the most, so of course new material was there the entire time waiting to be discovered - and not just at the NJSP Archives but others as well. Always made me think he knew right away that Jr. was dead. I've always believed that looking at the scenarios, one at a time, with a different position from each person leads to some interesting ideas. For example, IF he did believe he was dead already how does that change the entire way his actions are viewed? Too often people get caught up in the " (s)he had no idea" as a way to avoid doing just that. My question is why? I believe because it's more "comfortable," however, sometimes the truth is uncomfortable. And sometimes very uncomfortable. There is no why, there is only is. Or was.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 15, 2016 6:51:13 GMT -5
There is only was.
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 16, 2016 11:49:45 GMT -5
To xjd and All:
I notice that one of the LKC exhibits at the NJSP archives depicted in the reddit link is the cash box which supposedly contained the ransom money which Jafsie Condon gave to Cemetery John. Was that very same box actually somehow recovered by authorities, or is the box on display merely a replica of the original box? (If the box was recovered, that would be news to me.)
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Post by Michael on Jan 17, 2016 8:53:54 GMT -5
To xjd and All: I notice that one of the LKC exhibits at the NJSP archives depicted in the reddit link is the cash box which supposedly contained the ransom money which Jafsie Condon gave to Cemetery John. Was that very same box actually somehow recovered by authorities, or is the box on display merely a replica of the original box? (If the box was recovered, that would be news to me.) One thing I wanted to mention is that if you've stumbled onto this site out of interest but haven't read too much about the case it can be overwhelming. I suggest you jump onto Amazon and buy both of Mark Falzini's books: " Their Fifteen Minutes" AND " New Jersey's Lindbergh Kidnapping and Trial." I think they represent a handy tool when sifting through this nightmare of information. I am almost certain the Members here already have them to refer to when needed. To answer your question Hurt: No. The Box was never recovered. Police were mindful it hadn't been recovered, and they were hoping to find it in Hauptmann's place when they were tearing everything apart looking for ransom money but it wasn't there. The NJSP had Samuelsohn make a duplicate box which I know his family has/had. They may have donated it, or perhaps the NJSP built a replica themselves. (Photo below from NJSP)
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Jan 17, 2016 15:39:10 GMT -5
It's quite interesting that a shoebox of essentially the same dimensions would play such a prominent role in Hauptmann's later explanation of the ransom hoard in his garage.
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Post by Michael on Jan 18, 2016 8:41:49 GMT -5
It's quite interesting that a shoebox of essentially the same dimensions would play such a prominent role in Hauptmann's later explanation of the ransom hoard in his garage. What are your thoughts on this Joe?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 10:10:15 GMT -5
Michael,
I remember reading somewhere that a box was recovered from the bushes around the cemetery grounds along E. Tremont Ave. Am I remembering this correctly? What box was that and who found it?
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dave
Detective
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Post by dave on Jan 20, 2016 10:19:41 GMT -5
Hey Amy, I have followed your posts with great interest. Your doing great and I am very impressed.
I was just wondering if you have had any opportunity to visit any of the key sites in the case?
Keep up the good work. Always remember that you can get great takes on the case from Jack. He'll always make you think outside the box.
Stay strong, Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 9:05:11 GMT -5
Hey Dave,
Good to see that you are still checking in with us. You and Jack always bring much to the table when you post on this board.
A while back I looked at Highfields. That house looks very different now. There is an addition on the back where the patio used to be and the garage has been converted to living space. Surprisingly, the house is not massive looking when you see it. It is difficult to find even with a GPS. The area is still very woody and that drive up to the house is a long one. I cannot see anyone finding this house in 1932, especially at night, unless they had driven to it before and more than once.
I am planning to go into Flemington soon to see the court house and the Union Hotel.
I was looking through Jim Fisher's book, The Lindbergh Case, the other day and I saw you mentioned in his acknowledgements regarding your interviews with Lewis Bornmann. Did you ever meet Jim Fisher or see him at the archives?
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dave
Detective
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 11:02:56 GMT -5
Hey Amy,
I always loved the old Lindbergh House. Now they have distroyed the place. The first visit I made was in 1982. Inside and out side was pretty much as it was in 1932. The white wash was all but gone then. I lived in the place by myself for several weeks after the fire in 1984.
I was never best buddies with Jim Fisher. Whenever I wanted to take him somewhere he would say - "I gotta ask my wife first." For an FBI guy I thought he was kinda weak. I was better friends with Kennedy and very close to Wayne Jones and Tony Scaduto.
Also regarding the house, back then you could make a clean walk from Fetherbed Lane to the Lindbergh House. Also the foundation to the "Guard House" was still at the start of the drive way.
Here's a research question for ya. When I was living in the Lindbergh House I explored the basement. During the investigation a famous prisoneer was kept there. I found where he had carved his name on one of the walls. Who was it?
Let me know when you go to Flemington or the Bronx and I'll give you some interesting places to check out. Off the beaten path so to speak. I wish I had known when you were going to Hopewell. I would directed you to the family of Millard Whited, they still live near the Lindbergh property, as do some of Ben Lupica's family. Just think you could have also visited Millard's grave site. Let me know when you go again.
It' a great case. But as I say, "Simple crime, simpler time!"
Stay strong!
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 21, 2016 13:14:45 GMT -5
Dave. Your stories are awesome. Your posts are like field trips back to the past. I particularly like the boat trip you made to near St Raymond cemetery. Yet there are so many interesting things you did to get in the plasma of the case.
I wanted to ask a question with a simple crime simpler time viewpoint. What on earth was a Hauptmann doing in Hopewell on a cold windy weekday night? How on earth could he decide this night. to do this crime? Even if one kept tabs through the newspaper perhaps that Lindbergh was at a dinner event how would he know Hopewell not Englewood on a rare weekday night?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 14:58:54 GMT -5
Another point of wonderment, since we're wondering about things here is Hauptmann's story about the money. According to him of course, he got it from Fisch, and to the day he was arrested, knew absolutely nothing about it.
If that was the case, why didn't he just take it to the bank and tell them the Fisch story as to how he got it - trade it for regular bills? Or, if he suspected it was counterfeit or in some way bad and didn't want to get Fisch in trouble, just make up a story that he found it somehow and trade it in?
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 15:03:07 GMT -5
Hey Gary, I like that "the plasma" of the case. Your guestion "how did he know?" Is the easiest question to answer. He didn't know. What he did know was who's house it was and where the owners kid slept. (Thanks to the papers) Days they were there or not there were never an issue for him. Lindbergh at a dinner in NYC, how would he know that? He went because that was the day and time he chose. If he had gone in the room that night and been confronted by Lindbergh or Oliver, the next morning New York Time front page story, above the fold would have been: SHOOT OUT AT LINDBERGH HOME IN NEW JERSEY. If they had gone back to Englewood at the end of the weekend like they always did, he would been surprised to find no baby in the crib. Taken his ladder and note and gone back to the Bronx. Knowing Hauptmann the way I do though, he would have killed anyone (He had a gun) who walked into that room while he was there that night. Period. Full stop.
Is it too simple? Maybe so and no where as much fun if you don't see a conspiracy is it? I don't think Englewood was ever a consideration!
Simple crime, simpler time.
Hey Jack should I put a number after my name? How about "Dave 81" ?
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 21, 2016 15:48:25 GMT -5
I vaguely recall reading about this. I don't recall the man's name who was taken prisoner, but I believe he was a crooked former federal agent who came over to the Lindbergh house uninvited and claimed he knew where the baby could be found. Unlike Means and Curtis, he couldn't con anyone, and Lindbergh's people put him in the basement temporarily to get him to confess to the hoax.
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dave
Detective
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 15:52:33 GMT -5
Not a farmer. Big name in the case!
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 21, 2016 16:03:00 GMT -5
To amy35:
Michael told me on this thread that the original ransom box was never recovered, and a duplicate was made by Samuelsohn, which is currently present in the NJSP exhibit. So whatever box you indicate was found around the cemetery grounds was NOT the ransom box that Condon presented to CJ. I'd assume that the original box was ultimately used as firewood by CJ and/or his friend(s).
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Post by hurtelable on Jan 21, 2016 16:13:17 GMT -5
Dave, I think you misread my post. I said FORMER, as in FORMER federal agent, rather than "farmer."
Let me take another guess at this. Could the prisoner have been John Hughes Curtis? I know he came over to the Lindbergh house and confessed to his hoax.
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Post by garyb215 on Jan 21, 2016 16:20:57 GMT -5
I thought it was Curtis too but thought that would be too easy.
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dave
Detective
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 16:32:15 GMT -5
In the summer of 1984 I was in a suburb of Jersey City, New Jersey to meet a member of Harry Walsh's family. A very nice lady bought out a wooden box that was an exact copy of the box at the NJSP Museum. The lid or cover was broken and a large part was missing. In it were Harry's gun, a few pictures, and some newspaper clippings and a fountain pen. I was there about 30 minutes. A couple of days latter a called the lady. A man answered the phone. I told him who I was and that I would like photograph the box. He said his wife was out and that he knew nothing about the "wooden box with the broke lid." and hung up. Had I scene "the box?" And did Harry Waldh have it? They never took my calls after my final contact with the man. I want by the house twice after that in the fall but a neighbor told me on my last visit that the man had died and the lady had moved to Florida with no forwarding address. I was DOA with regards to the mystery box after that.
And what of the pen? Why did he keep that one pen?
Sorry I did miss read the earlier post. It was Curtis!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 17:52:53 GMT -5
Harry Walsh had the ransom box??? I never heard that before. And the Pen. Did you get a good look at it? Did it have an M on it? You know that the police recovered a pen from Hauptmann's old radio that Hauptmann gave to Hans Mueller. Is this the pen it might have been??
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 18:34:47 GMT -5
That 7's just on there because there's too many Jacks around - according to some folks at least one too many.
How about Dave148395026?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 18:41:12 GMT -5
I'm Jack7737 and a woman asked me once why the 7737 - told her I wasn't at liberty to disclose that information. Gotta keep up the image you know.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Jan 21, 2016 18:41:58 GMT -5
On another site Jack7737.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 20:03:01 GMT -5
Not all cops are good cops! That be news to some!
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dave
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Post by dave on Jan 21, 2016 20:03:24 GMT -5
I really hope that what I am about to say will not break too many hearts. But here goes. A lot of the Troopers. Policemen and FBI Agents who worked the Lindbergh Case took stuff that related to the Hauptmann's. I found two old troopers from the NJSP who had Hauptmann's shotguns. Some had furniture form the Hauptmann Apartment. Dishes from Germany, silverware, framed pictures, personal gifts from family members, Richards musical instruments. When Mrs. Hauptmann asked, and she had a right to do so, for personal iitems that didn't relate to the case be returned, she was told "Sorry you should have asked earlier!" There was nothing left.
Did Harry have the box? I think he did. It was most likely found during or after the trial and the case being so strong never used. The pen, I don't remember too well, I'm sure was Hauptmann's.
A lot of the cops that worked this case were real scum. I found a lot of cops had one or two Lindbergh bills. Not a crime, but how and from whom did they get them?
I don't know what happened to the radio. I gave the NJSP a press photo of two Jersey Troopers carrying it into the Court Room at Flemington. I have no idea where it went from there. The Trooper who gave me the picture, and he is in the picture, only laughed when I asked him.
Simple crime, simpler time. A time when the cops took everything and no one asked any questions. There's a word that is used today way too much with too many people and the word is "HERO." There were none in this case. If you look hard you will find two or three good cops on this case but that's it. Very very few.
Sounds kind of modern huh?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 20:52:24 GMT -5
I know that Anna did get some things back. I believe what was returned depended on whether the authorities believed it was bought with ransom money or not. Sounds like a lot more items were kept than should have been though.
I saw that picture too, of the radio being carried into court for the trial. I wondered what had happened to it. It wasn't on the list of items that Anna received. You paint a very negative but unfortunately true picture of what the police were like in this case. And we are supposed to believe in the case they presented against Hauptmann?
Yes, it does sound kind of modern.
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Post by rebekah on Jan 21, 2016 21:00:26 GMT -5
In terms of the inside help being Betty or the Whateleys, my money is on Betty. Not as any kind of mastermind, but as someone who was compelled, under false pretenses, to assist, to keep the coast clear. There was someone else on the inside who was arranging this whole thing, I think, and Betty was just doing what this person told her to. Yes. And then promised she "wouldn't be touched."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 21:09:45 GMT -5
I wanted to ask a question with a simple crime simpler time viewpoint. What on earth was a Hauptmann doing in Hopewell on a cold windy weekday night? How on earth could he decide this night. to do this crime? Even if one kept tabs through the newspaper perhaps that Lindbergh was at a dinner event how would he know Hopewell not Englewood on a rare weekday night? It is an interesting question you ask Gary. If Hauptmann was in Hopewell that night, perhaps he chose Tuesday because he thought Lindbergh would be at that dinner in NYC plus Anna worked late on Tuesday night and that might have had something to do with choosing a Tuesday. The other night that Anna worked late was Friday night. The Lindberghs never came to the Hopewell house on Fridays so that night would not have been an option for Hauptmann. Why Hopewell and not Englewood? The answer may be because Hopewell was the softer target. Englewood had guards. The Hopewell house did not. How did Hauptmann know the Lindberghs were there? I think it still comes down to some inside help.
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Post by rebekah on Jan 21, 2016 21:17:43 GMT -5
Hi, Amy. Question. When you went to Highfields, did you go inside?
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