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Post by lightningjew on Sept 28, 2014 18:35:44 GMT -5
Ooh burn!
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Post by rebekah on Sept 28, 2014 18:53:10 GMT -5
Hi, Amy. No, I DO believe he was being treated for rickets. But, the idea that he wasn't quite 'all there' just doesn't ring true with me. I'm glad we have the old home movies to look at. He looks and acts perfectly normal to me. I wonder who shot those films.
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 28, 2014 19:21:03 GMT -5
My intuitive guess would be that CAL Jr. was probably delivered at one of the Morrow homes, either in Manhattan or Englewood, NJ. This was before the era when deliveries of babies were commonly done in hospitals. I suppose that getting CAL Jr.'s Birth certificate would resolve the issue as to place of birth.
If he was born at home you would be less likely to find any medical records surrounding the birth, but I would start with trying to track down descendants of Dr. Hawkes, who, by some offbeat chance, might know what he might have done with his records from that time. If Charlie was born in a hospital it's possible, but a long shot, that the hospital or its successor hospital might have the records available on microfilm.
In any event, the odds of finding something along these lines would slim.
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Post by Michael on Sept 28, 2014 19:54:48 GMT -5
Okay, well, let me phrase the question another way: IF Dr. Hawkes did in fact say this, how would this be documented and where would one go to find it? If this particular hypothetical example were real or based upon something tangible, one should always try the NJSP Archives where 95% of anything that's out there now resides. I'd also say that having researched there myself for as long as I have, that I would have already found it, xeroxed it, then added it to my personal collection. But like I've repeatedly said, each and every time I make another visit I find something new that I either missed or didn't find important - because I was less knowledgeable the last time I came acrossed it. For example, you are further along now then you were a year ago, and I am willing to bet a year from now even further still. Something could be entirely meaningless to you now but might be very important at that future date.
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 28, 2014 22:18:13 GMT -5
To Michael and others:
Just curious: Would you know if CAL Jr.'s birth certificate is in the NJSP Archives? If someone has an image of it, can you please post it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2014 8:51:33 GMT -5
Hi, Amy. No, I DO believe he was being treated for rickets. But, the idea that he wasn't quite 'all there' just doesn't ring true with me. I'm glad we have the old home movies to look at. He looks and acts perfectly normal to me. I wonder who shot those films. Thanks Rebekah for clarifying your position on the rickets issue for me. As far as who shot those home films, I can only offer that in Anne's diary she mentions that her Aunt Alice (sister of Dwight Morrow Sr.) recorded home movies of Charlie. When you watch the linked newsreel from 1932 about the kidnapping they use a portion of at least one of these home movies in that newsclip. The report credits Charles Lindbergh with making the portion of home video being used. I cannot say for certain about whether he shot that piece of video of his son. youtu.be/NZIcAdZWIO4Personally, I think it is more likely the video was taped by Aunt Alice. Lindbergh must have released the videos to the newsmedia to aid in the search for Charlie so the credit goes to him. The newspapers used stills from the videos in the newspapers when reporting the kidnapping. People were to be on the lookout for the curly-haired blonde, blue eyed boy. A lot of the press was reporting these picture as 'recent' photos, etc. They all show Charlie with a head of golden curly hair. So many people were being pulled over by police because their children were in the correct age bracket and had blond curly hair like Charlie's. I wonder why the Lindberghs did not make it clear to the police and public that Charlie's curls were cut off just days before he was brought to the Hopewell house that final weekend. He didn't have the full head of curly hair the night of March 1. Here is a link to Mark Falzini's (NJSP museum archivist) latest blog post concerning this: www.njspmuseum.blogspot.com/
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Post by Michael on Sept 29, 2014 16:20:26 GMT -5
To Michael and others: Just curious: Would you know if CAL Jr.'s birth certificate is in the NJSP Archives? If someone has an image of it, can you please post it?
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 29, 2014 17:09:11 GMT -5
To Michael:
Thanks for your posting of the copy of Charlie's DEATH certificate. There's an obvious controversy here, since the death certificate indicates the place of death as Mercer County, while Hauptmann was tried for murder in Hunterdon County. Hauptmann's defense team did raise the issue at trial, but somehow the venue was not changed.
But, Michael, the question I had posted was about Charlie's BIRTH certificate. Have you ever seen it, and if you have it, can you post an image?
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Post by Michael on Sept 29, 2014 18:18:26 GMT -5
People were to be on the lookout for the curly-haired blonde, blue eyed boy. A lot of the press was reporting these picture as 'recent' photos, etc. They all show Charlie with a head of golden curly hair. So many people were being pulled over by police because their children were in the correct age bracket and had blond curly hair like Charlie's. I wonder why the Lindberghs did not make it clear to the police and public that Charlie's curls were cut off just days before he was brought to the Hopewell house that final weekend. He didn't have the full head of curly hair the night of March 1. Clearly it defeats the purpose doesn't it? So what's your best guess about this Amy?
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Post by Michael on Sept 29, 2014 19:42:16 GMT -5
Sorry for the mistake. Yes, I have seen it and I have several copies. Two are in terrible shape, in fact I don't expect they'll scan up, but I know I have something else that HRO sent me that has the same information on it but its not a copy of the original - but it works better because it's in good shape. Unfortunately NONE are where I expected them to be so you'll have to give me a rain-check until such time I "stumble" upon them - or at least one of them. Is there something you would be looking for on them in particular? If so just ask and I just might remember.
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Post by hurtelable on Sept 29, 2014 20:15:35 GMT -5
To Michael:
With regard to Charlie's birth certificate, was interested in determining where he was born (home or hospital?) and if there is anything there to hint at any medical problems noticed at birth.
Separately, have you seem any medical records on Charlie other than the Van Ingen letter to Mrs. Morrow?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2014 0:02:32 GMT -5
People were to be on the lookout for the curly-haired blonde, blue eyed boy. A lot of the press was reporting these picture as 'recent' photos, etc. They all show Charlie with a head of golden curly hair. So many people were being pulled over by police because their children were in the correct age bracket and had blond curly hair like Charlie's. I wonder why the Lindberghs did not make it clear to the police and public that Charlie's curls were cut off just days before he was brought to the Hopewell house that final weekend. He didn't have the full head of curly hair the night of March 1. Clearly it defeats the purpose doesn't it? So what's your best guess about this Amy? Well, Michael, holding back important information about how Charlie really looked at the time he went missing leads me to think someone didn't want Charlie to be recognized or located. Withholding an accurate description of Charlie makes no sense othewise. If there was a plan to relocate Charlie to some type of institution and not have him recognized in the process then misleading the police and public to look for a boy with lots of curly blonde hair on his head would help accomplish that. You would want everyone focussed on that image of Charlie. When you want your child found you provide an accurate description of him. You don't leave out something important like a recent haircut that alters your child's appearance significantly from the published pictures.
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kdwv8
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Post by kdwv8 on Sept 30, 2014 12:09:52 GMT -5
The autopsy report said the baby's head had "light curly hair about three inches long". That seems like long hair for a baby that had a recent haircut.
Didn't Charlie have his curls cut off days before the kidnapping/murder?
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Sept 30, 2014 13:07:07 GMT -5
I can only offer that in Anne's diary she mentions that her Aunt Alice (sister of Dwight Morrow Sr.) recorded home movies of Charlie. Amy35..CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME MORE ABOUT AUNT ALICE??
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Post by Michael on Sept 30, 2014 20:05:08 GMT -5
To Michael: With regard to Charlie's birth certificate, was interested in determining where he was born (home or hospital?) and if there is anything there to hint at any medical problems noticed at birth. I do know the birth certificate says Englewood. I wanted to know this myself due to one of the books claiming he was born in the Morrow's Apartment. However, despite most sources claiming he was born at Next Day Hill I remember seeing something I couldn't make out that bothered me about this claim. Separately, have you seem any medical records on Charlie other than the Van Ingen letter to Mrs. Morrow? I really don't know how to answer this question. I've seen as much as I could find. There are bits and pieces everywhere.
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Post by romeo12 on Sept 30, 2014 21:20:13 GMT -5
what I heard in the last 20 years, his medical records is housed at john Hopkins hospital in Baltimore. I don't know how true this is or not
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kdwv8
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Post by kdwv8 on Oct 1, 2014 19:49:41 GMT -5
The autopsy report said the baby's head had "light curly hair about three inches long". That seems like long hair for a baby that had a recent haircut. Didn't Charlie have his curls cut off days before the kidnapping/murder? Micheal, Please respond to this. Thanks, kdwv8
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 21:38:33 GMT -5
Amy35..CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME MORE ABOUT AUNT ALICE?? I really don't know that much. What I can tell you is the following: Alice Morrow was born in West Virginia July 23, 1871. She was an older sister to Dwight Whitney Morrow. Alice moved to Allegheny, Pennsylvania in 1875 when her Dad, James Elmore Morrow, accepted a teaching position in PA. Alice Morrow became a teacher and taught for awhile in Pittsburgh. She eventually moved to Englewood N.J. Alice became friendly with Evangeline Lindbergh after meeting her at a Morrow Christmas party in 1927 in Mexico. When Evangeline was offered and accepted a visiting professorship appointment with the American College for Girls in Constantinople, Turkey in 1928, Alice accompanied Evangeline to Turkey. Alice remained active with the college serving as a trustee with the Near East College Association in New York. Alice Morrow never married. She died May 9, 1940.
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Post by hurtelable on Oct 1, 2014 22:33:42 GMT -5
To amy35 and All:
Thanks for the biographical data on Alice Morrow. Had no idea she was born in West Virginia, then moved to western PA. I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that Alice and Dwight's dad was a man of some means, because Dwight went to school at Amherst, and not many poor kids went to prestigious colleges in those days. Just curious: do you know what profession or business Alice and Dwight's father was involved in?
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Post by Michael on Oct 2, 2014 5:28:16 GMT -5
The autopsy report said the baby's head had "light curly hair about three inches long". That seems like long hair for a baby that had a recent haircut. Didn't Charlie have his curls cut off days before the kidnapping/murder? I haven't forgotten this question. I remember this being discussed years ago on Ronelle's Board, I believe there's testimony about it, and I even think an announcement made by Schwarzkopf concerning this fact exists, so I was going to search for these but that can take time I haven't had much of at the moment. The Child's hair was cut on Feburary 23, 1932. Everything in Mark's Blog is correct, and I've never found anything to upset it. For example, when the word came out about this haircut there was no rush to dispute it from any source. So the estimated length, and curliness of the hair found by the corpse seems the only question - not only from this source but most said the hair had been "curly" and in some places "matted." I have never found an exact length anywhere - not even in the NJSP Review. I am not an Expert in any field, most especially in hair, but from any of the pictures I've seen it looks as though his hair was very long but curled. I think it depends the length at which the curls start, and what can happen to hair when uncombed and exposed to the elements. Next, I do know that death causes the skin to shrink and exposes more hair that had been growing beneath it. Here is a picture of Charles Jr. and I think it shows his hair being quite long. In my opinion, a barber could take quite a bit of hair off his head and still leave some: www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo/rights-managed/PG16557/portrait-of-charles-lindbergh-jr?popup=1I wish the hair was still at the NJSP Archives so that we could get a better sense of this all, however, this is all we can go by at the moment:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2014 13:49:16 GMT -5
To amy35 and All:
Thanks for the biographical data on Alice Morrow. Had no idea she was born in West Virginia, then moved to western PA. I don't know this for a fact, but I assume that Alice and Dwight's dad was a man of some means, because Dwight went to school at Amherst, and not many poor kids went to prestigious colleges in those days. Just curious: do you know what profession or business Alice and Dwight's father was involved in? James Elmore Morrow, the father of Alice, Dwight and six other children, was a school teacher. His teacher salary was very modest and the family lived most frugally. James Elmore did seek to improve his earning status over the years but by the time Dwight was ready for college the family budget was still quite tight.
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Post by hurtelable on Oct 2, 2014 23:16:07 GMT -5
To Michael, amy35, et al:
Thanks for posting the NJSP report on the hair comparison between Charlie's hair from his last haircut (Feb. 23, 1932) and the hair purportedly taken from the body found in the woods.
The two specimens are reported the same in terms of size, texture, color, and chemistry, but there is no further more specific detail. I have a hunch that any child with blond and modestly curly hair would have matched to Charlie's, so I don't think the police report in any way proves that the body found in the woods was that of Charlie. BTW, it's hard to imagine what chemical tests may have been available back then to compare hair samples.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 9:41:48 GMT -5
Actually, the hair becomes one of the best sources to reveal that the body found in the woods and Charlie are one in the same. Back in 1932 there was limited ability to look as closely scientifically at hair samples as there is today. There was a later look microscopically at those samples after Anthony Scaduto's Scapegoat book came out in 1976. This was done by Alan T. Lane, who was Senior Forensic Scientist at that time with the NJSP. What he found that was not evident in 1932 was that Charlie's hair sample pre-kidnapping and the hair sample recovered at the gravesite shared a very unusual condition. Hair nodes (little bumps) were found along the shaft of the hair that was examined. This was not at all a common condition. Something had caused the hair to have this condition and both Charlie and the corpse shared this same condition. What are the odds that a substitute child in the woods could have been known to have this same hair oddity that matched perfectly with Charlie's hair?
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Post by hurtelable on Oct 3, 2014 15:44:46 GMT -5
To amy35:
Is there any medical term you know of for these nodes in the hair shaft? Is this phenomenon perhaps only an artifact caused by degenerative changes due to exposure of the cut hair over many years? If you can, please link me to this story about the hair nodes.
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Post by stella7 on Oct 3, 2014 17:10:11 GMT -5
it can be the environmental factors, like exposure to the sun lamp that caused it or some genetic disorders,
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Post by hurtelable on Oct 3, 2014 19:44:25 GMT -5
To stella7, amy35, and All:
(1) What is the medical or scientific term for this condition?
(2) Can you link me to any general discussion about this condition on the Internet?
(3) Can posthumous changes occur to cause the nodes to appear on the hair shaft?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2014 9:02:16 GMT -5
Hair Nodes are breaks (splits) in the hair shaft which weaken the hair. If you google hair nodes you can read about this type of condition. Hair nodes can have an external cause and can also be caused by disease.
We know that Charlie was being treated for rickets. Vitamin supplements and sunlamps were the methods used in 1932. These usually brought about the desired results when treating a normal case of rickets. What I think we see with Charlie is something more serious going on. These standard treatments are not producing the expected results. Charlie is not metabolizing the vitamin D supplements aided by the use of the sunlamp as would be expected if normal rickets were all that was going on with Charlie. Charlie is given additonal sunlamp treatments thinking this might improve his response to the vitamin D supplements. Instead, his skin is becoming very dry(see Van Ingen's letter to Mrs. Morrow) and Charlie's hair is being damaged from the use of the ultraviolet light. Charlie is not improving even with all of the efforts to help him.
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Post by rebekah on Oct 4, 2014 11:07:27 GMT -5
Hair Nodes are breaks (splits) in the hair shaft which weaken the hair. If you google hair nodes you can read about this type of condition. Hair nodes can have an external cause and can also be caused by disease. We know that Charlie was being treated for rickets. Vitamin supplements and sunlamps were the methods used in 1932. These usually brought about the desired results when treating a normal case of rickets. What I think we see with Charlie is something more serious going on. These standard treatments are not producing the expected results. Charlie is not metabolizing the vitamin D supplements aided by the use of the sunlamp as would be expected if normal rickets were all that was going on with Charlie. Charlie is given additonal sunlamp treatments thinking this might improve his response to the vitamin D supplements. Instead, his skin is becoming very dry(see Van Ingen's letter to Mrs. Morrow) and Charlie's hair is being damaged from the use of the ultraviolet light. Charlie is not improving even with all of the efforts to help him. I find this very disturbing. It might account for the lack of any photos of the baby after 1931.
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Post by romeo12 on Oct 4, 2014 11:35:22 GMT -5
everybody is trying to be doctors here, the fact is he had rickets so did 5000 other kids at that time. beyond that, I never in 20 years saw any proof that he had other diseases as far as I know. until somebody can take a peak at his medical records we don't really know
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Post by hurtelable on Oct 4, 2014 13:20:46 GMT -5
Agreed that Charlie likely had rickets and was treated as you say. In fact, his lack of response to those standard treatments indicates that what he had was likely what is called today Vitamin D resistant rickets. This in children is usually a genetic order which prevents Vitamin D from being metabolized to its more active form, Vitamin D3.
What I'm driving at is the significance (or lack thereof) of the hair nodes observed 40+ years later in dead, cut off hair. There seem to be no contemporary records of Charlie having these hair nodes when he was alive or shortly after death. Could the hair nodes observed forty years later on his cut hair being preserved in the NJSP laboratory have come about through many years of exposure to that environment? If so, it wouldn't be surprising that the hair sample taken from the corpse found in the woods would show the same degeneration. Then, too, even if Charlie did have these hair nodes in life, couldn't some other child have had hair nodes also, since it isn't by itself such a rare condition.
The bottom line here is that finding hair nodes on both Charlie's hair and the corpse's hair 40+ years after the fact is not all that strong of a point in identifying the corpse in the woods as that of Charlie.
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