Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 21:58:39 GMT -5
It has certainly not gone unnoticed by anyone who has looked into this case that there are no known/revealed pictures of CAL with his son Charlie. Charlie was the firstborn child and CAL's namesake. One would think there would have been pictures of Lindbergh with Charlie, right? So why aren't there any?? I have not seen any, not even when Charlie was less than a year old. CAL certainly was not opposed to taking pictures with his other children that he had with Anne. Here is a picture of Lindbergh with his son Jon. This picture was taken by Anne Lindbergh during the summer of 1934 before Jon was two years old. Jon enjoyed the honor of having his picture taken with Dad, something that, as far as is known, was denied to Charles Jr. imgur.com/eA3SQU9
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ziki
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Post by ziki on Oct 27, 2019 0:27:56 GMT -5
Hello, Amy, if thinking in mode "everything is possible": What about the possibility of Charlie Jr. not being CAL’s son? Or CAL doubting paternity of Charlie Jr.?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 10:26:32 GMT -5
Hello, Amy, if thinking in mode "everything is possible": What about the possibility of Charlie Jr. not being CAL’s son? Or CAL doubting paternity of Charlie Jr.? Hi Ziki. Speculating around the "everything is possible" scenarios you mention, we can consider the April 1930 high altitude flight that was taken by CAL and Anne when she was 7 months pregnant with Charlie and, as a result, Anne did suffer physically from this flight and needed to be hospitalized. There were rumors that followed that Anne gave birth as a result and "something" happened to the baby. Anne confirms these rumors did exist in her May 12, 1930 diary entry! I bold this date because exactly two years later a child's remains would be found in the Mount Rose woods and would be identified as Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr. Anne says in her diary entry that she, herself, answered some of the newspaper inquiries as the "secretary" with the following statement, "There is no information being given out." I do not understand why there was no flat out denial of these rumors if everything was just fine with the pregnancy and the unborn child. Are you considering the possibility that the child was delivered prematurely and died and another child was secured as a replacement baby and this is why CAL chose not to be photographed with "Charlie"? I have never considered your second question, that CAL doubted the paternity of Charlie Jr. This would mean that Anne, while still in the first year of her marriage to Lindbergh, might have been cheating on her husband! CAL was a possessive man when it came to Anne. Anne was head-over-heels in love with CAL who she thought the sun rose and set upon. Plus that first year of marriage their schedule had very little down time. I can't begin to figure when or who she could have attached herself to long enough to end up pregnant from such a union. I do think Anne was the most emotionally vulnerable in that marriage and this would reveal itself years later(1939) when Anne became infatuated with French aviator, Antoine de Saint-Exupery. This did not go unnoticed by CAL. I personally believe that Charlie was biologically the son of both Charles and Anne Lindbergh. He was their first born. I think CAL's lack of bonding with his son stems from that fact that Charlie was not physically perfect, had real health issues and Lindbergh was not accepting of this. I believe he blamed these issues on the Morrow side of the family!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 27, 2019 11:09:19 GMT -5
Hello, Amy, if thinking in mode "everything is possible": What about the possibility of Charlie Jr. not being CAL’s son? Or CAL doubting paternity of Charlie Jr.? Hi Ziki. Speculating around the "everything is possible" scenarios you mention, we can consider the April 1930 high altitude flight that was taken by CAL and Anne when she was 7 months pregnant with Charlie and, as a result, Anne did suffer physically from this flight and needed to be hospitalized. There were rumors that followed that Anne gave birth as a result and "something" happened to the baby. Anne confirms these rumors did exist in her May 12, 1930 diary entry! I bold this date because exactly two years later a child's remains would be found in the Mount Rose woods and would be identified as Charles A. Lindbergh, Jr. Anne says in her diary entry that she, herself, answered some of the newspaper inquiries as the "secretary" with the following statement, "There is no information being given out." I do not understand why there was no flat out denial of these rumors if everything was just fine with the pregnancy and the unborn child. Are you considering the possibility that the child was delivered prematurely and died and another child was secured as a replacement baby and this is why CAL chose not to be photographed with "Charlie"? I have never considered your second question, that CAL doubted the paternity of Charlie Jr. This would mean that Anne, while still in the first year of her marriage to Lindbergh, might have been cheating on her husband! CAL was a possessive man when it came to Anne. Anne was head-over-heels in love with CAL who she thought the sun rose and set upon. Plus that first year of marriage their schedule had very little down time. I can't begin to figure when or who she could have attached herself to long enough to end up pregnant from such a union. I do think Anne was the most emotionally vulnerable in that marriage and this would reveal itself years later(1939) when Anne became infatuated with French aviator, Antoine de Saint-Exupery. This did not go unnoticed by CAL. I personally believe that Charlie was biologically the son of both Charles and Anne Lindbergh. He was their first born. I think CAL's lack of bonding with his son stems from that fact that Charlie was not physically perfect, had real health issues and Lindbergh was not accepting of this. I believe he blamed these issues on the Morrow side of the family! And yet, there seems to be no indication of Charles rebuffing his first born son. The distasteful jokes aside, that probably were a direct result of Lindbergh's own sang froid upbringing, Anne's diary indicates he was warming up and in the process of bonding with Charlie. My own feelings are that the Lindberghs and Morrows just didn't take a whole lot of family photographs, primarily based on Lindbergh's concern about them being leaked to the press, and that in most cases he just wasn't fully prepared for fatherhood when Charlie came along.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:12:59 GMT -5
My own feelings are that the Lindberghs and Morrows just didn't take a whole lot of family photographs, primarily based on Lindbergh's concern about them being leaked to the press, and that in most cases he just wasn't fully prepared for fatherhood when Charlie came along. Actually, the Lindberghs and Morrows did take a lot of pictures. You need to go through the picture archives of Yale and you will see many family pictures. What you won't see there or in any book or publication is even a single legitimate picture of Charles Lindbergh with his namesake and first born son, Charles Jr. There are quite a few pictures of Charlie, some of which Wayne has generously shared with this board. No pictures of Lindbergh with Charlie. That is the point of this discussion. CAL took pictures with all his other children with Anne, but none with Charlie. Why is Charlie the exception???
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Oct 28, 2019 8:00:54 GMT -5
My own feelings are that the Lindberghs and Morrows just didn't take a whole lot of family photographs, primarily based on Lindbergh's concern about them being leaked to the press, and that in most cases he just wasn't fully prepared for fatherhood when Charlie came along. Actually, the Lindberghs and Morrows did take a lot of pictures. You need to go through the picture archives of Yale and you will see many family pictures. What you won't see there or in any book or publication is even a single legitimate picture of Charles Lindbergh with his namesake and first born son, Charles Jr. There are quite a few pictures of Charlie, some of which Wayne has generously shared with this board. No pictures of Lindbergh with Charlie. That is the point of this discussion. CAL took pictures with all his other children with Anne, but none with Charlie. Why is Charlie the exception??? Yes, I recall some of the Yale photos now. Your point is an interesting one, and is a bit tough to reconcile given Anne's memoirs about the seeming bond that existed between father and son.
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ziki
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Post by ziki on Oct 29, 2019 4:55:03 GMT -5
Thank you for your answer, Amy. My thoughts were based on impression Anne makes on me: still waters run deep. But it really seems too early for Anne cheating on CAL, although there can be self-censorship or "poetic licence" in writing her diaries (and if I got it right, we can not read them in whole in books like Hours of Gold, Hours of Lead…). But I can’t rid of the thought, that the German sisters having children with CAL more than twenty years later weren’t the first time of such behavior by CAL... Another two questions arised: 1. Did the photos from CAL and Charlie Jr. exist and somebody (CAL?) destroyed them later, or CAL allowed absolutely no photo with his first born son or with his wife and son from the very beginning, maybe because of the rumors you mention? (Also "unripe" fathers make photos with their children, but some fathers behave weird toward their first born sons, even if the sons are physically and mentally OK and they make photos with them - as I know from an example in immediate family.) 2. If it was CAL who killed (directly or not) Charlie, did Anne know about it or realized it later?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 7:31:02 GMT -5
Another two questions arised: 1. Did the photos from CAL and Charlie Jr. exist and somebody (CAL?) destroyed them later, or CAL allowed absolutely no photo with his first born son or with his wife and son from the very beginning, maybe because of the rumors you mention? (Also "unripe" fathers make photos with their children, but some fathers behave weird toward their first born sons, even if the sons are physically and mentally OK and they make photos with them - as I know from an example in immediate family.) 2. If it was CAL who killed (directly or not) Charlie, did Anne know about it or realized it later? About your questions, here are my thoughts: 1. You suggest an interesting idea that perhaps CAL destroyed any existing pictures of himself with Charlie. Although anything is possible, I am not sure what his purpose would be to do that. Is it about rejection of Charlie or an unacceptance of Charlie because of his health issues so he destroys those pictures if they ever did exist? I am more inclined (unless something else surfaces) that none were taken with them together. 2. I have found nothing that suggests that Anne blamed CAL in any way for what happened to Charlie or thought he was responsible in any way. Just the opposite, actually. She felt the death of Charlie brought them closer together! If CAL had a plan to permanently remove Charlie from the family circle, I do not believe she would have known about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 15:49:57 GMT -5
I found a nice picture of Anne and Jon that I have never seen before. The picture is labeled by Anne. She gave this picture to Elsie Whateley. After the kidnapping and the death of her husband Ollie, Elsie remained in the employ of the Lindberghs, living with them at Next Day Hill in Englewood. One of the things Elsie did was help Anne with the care of Jon until the summer of 1935 when Elsie returned home to England. I think this picture was probably a gift to Elsie before she left for England. Here is that picture: imgur.com/HHxoWL6This picture is available for sale on an English website that sells all types of autographs, etc. I happened upon it during one of my searches. This lady lists the picture as being Charles, Jr. which is not correct. www.sophiedupreautographs.com/StockItem.aspx?s=53329
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Post by Mbg on Apr 29, 2020 16:03:10 GMT -5
Thank you for posting this beautiful photo, Amy. The studio of the Misses Selby was the most exclusive portrait photo studio in Manhattan in its day. Perhaps the Lindberghs had planned to take Charlie there for a photo one day, or not?
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Post by Sue on Apr 29, 2020 19:14:33 GMT -5
I think the Lindbergh baby was beautiful!
I especially like the photo of him at the beginning of Jim Fisher's first book.
What absolutely gorgeous curly blonde hair!
Running. Crying. Unhappy about something.
A baby being a baby!
Too cute for words!
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Post by xjd on Apr 30, 2020 9:23:13 GMT -5
beautiful picture, that is a great find amy!
makes me wonder, i did a brief search for baby pictures of the other Lindbergh children and didn't see much. are there any available pictures of Charlie's siblings as infants? was just thinking about the paucity of known Charlie pictures as opposed to the other kids. admittedly (usually) the more kids a family tends to have the less pictures they have time to take! and CAL Sr. might have been extra leery of allowing pictures after Charlie's death.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2020 15:15:11 GMT -5
Hi xjd, You are correct, it is difficult to find infant baby pictures of Charlie's siblings online. I will check the Yale digital collection to see if I can find any pictures there that I can post. There is a picture of Jon from his Darien Conn. High School year book, class of 1950 I found online from a site called My Heritage. Don't know how many people might have seen this so I am going to post it here. imgur.com/u6uhfLsI will check around for some baby pics of the other CAL/Anne children.
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Post by hurtelable on May 2, 2020 7:25:53 GMT -5
Hi xjd, You are correct, it is difficult to find infant baby pictures of Charlie's siblings online. I will check the Yale digital collection to see if I can find any pictures there that I can post. There is a picture of Jon from his Darien Conn. High School year book, class of 1950 I found online from a site called My Heritage. Don't know how many people might have seen this so I am going to post it here. imgur.com/u6uhfLsI will check around for some baby pics of the other CAL/Anne children. Surprised that Jon would attend a pubic high school, even one in an uppity community. BTW, according to Wikipedia, Jon is still alive at age 87. He has had three marriages and eight children from them. (Like father, like son?) In his earlier years, he was a US Navy officer and a marine biologist. His alma mater is Stanford.
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Post by trojanusc on May 2, 2020 16:16:49 GMT -5
Hi xjd, You are correct, it is difficult to find infant baby pictures of Charlie's siblings online. I will check the Yale digital collection to see if I can find any pictures there that I can post. There is a picture of Jon from his Darien Conn. High School year book, class of 1950 I found online from a site called My Heritage. Don't know how many people might have seen this so I am going to post it here. imgur.com/u6uhfLsI will check around for some baby pics of the other CAL/Anne children. Surprised that Jon would attend a pubic high school, even one in an uppity community. BTW, according to Wikipedia, Jon is still alive at age 87. He has had three marriages and eight children from them. (Like father, like son?) In his earlier years, he was a US Navy officer and a marine biologist. His alma mater is Stanford. I do wonder what the family knows/suspects regarding the kidnapping, including the real reason they had the stuff from the archives removed. Michael - any guesses on the latter?
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Post by Michael on May 3, 2020 9:46:51 GMT -5
I do wonder what the family knows/suspects regarding the kidnapping, including the real reason they had the stuff from the archives removed. Michael - any guesses on the latter? Before the German/Swiss siblings I'd say they neither knew nor suspected anything. But after that .... "suspects" would be the word I'd use. As you know, the "official" explanation was that Anne had always wanted this done. Sounds reasonable and hardly anything one could argue against. Still, if she did what was stopping her at any time to ask for them? In my opinion, the NJSP and/or the State of NJ would have tripped over themselves to hand them over to her. It's the timing of the removal that is a little suspect. I've always considered DNA could have been the (a) reason but of course I cannot say what someone else's motives were. I empathize with the family honestly. All of these years with people claiming to be their brother, and then all of the sudden, the family in Germany emerged with their claims of being siblings. I recommend reading all of these articles below without skimming or skipping over anything (CAL had everyone fooled - even his own family): m.dw.com/en/germans-claim-charles-lindbergh-is-their-father/a-951603
www.dw.com/en/tests-prove-claim-of-lindberghs-second-family/a-1045130
www.dw.com/en/lindberghs-double-life/a-1620936-0
www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/garden/17lindbergh.html These three sets of siblings are just what we know about. I'd be willing to bet there's more.... Reconstituting the gene pool ain't easy, and by the way, think about how many people were required to keep a secret for this to have "worked." And we're talking people who knew about each other and shared his "affections." Consider how lucky we are to have been able to learn about this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 8:22:02 GMT -5
are there any available pictures of Charlie's siblings as infants? I still do check online for any sibling baby pictures you asked about. So far, I haven't located any pictures I have not seen before. Anyone who has read Anne Lindbergh's diaries would have seen some of the pictures I will post here. These come from the Yale digital archives available online. Anne holding Jon Lindbergh who is 3 months old: imgur.com/YHUX6iNAnne holding Land Lindbergh (born in England) with Jon looking at Land in one of the photos: imgur.com/5XKjpMaimgur.com/6yA5GJAAnne holding baby Scott Lindbergh surrounded by his siblings, Jon, Land and Sister Anne: imgur.com/MIVvGOlI wanted to add here a couple of still photos of Anne Lindbergh that appear in the Lindbergh biography film I will link in this post: imgur.com/n4jvLvw Anne imgur.com/JOGHe0F Anne sitting with older sister Elisabeth and younger brother Dwight and youngest sister Constance. Here is the biography video that contains these photos: youtu.be/p-XiEHuanSAI will continue to keep an eye out for any photos that may sometime cross my path. I will certainly share them here.
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Post by stella7 on Jul 12, 2022 11:52:55 GMT -5
We had dinner recently with my brother-in-law and a fellow Mason of his. We got talking about history (this guy is a Civil War buff) and the Lindburgh Kidnapping came up. Apparently, before my brother-in-law's time, Hugo Stockbuger was a brother and a member of the same lodge. He was well into his 90s and gave a talk at the lodge about the kidnapping.
He, as you all know, was a NJ State Trooper on duty the night of the kidnapping. He was on his motorcycle the night of the kidnapping, monitoring the Rt 1 Corridor when the call came in. Various gas stations along the route had phone booths and if a call came into the station the owners would put a red light out to flag the officer as they cruised their beat and they would call into headquarters for any news or updates from the phone booth. Of course that night the news was The Crime of the Century! He was told to keep an eye out for anything suspicious along Rt1, particularly around New Brunswick, but saw nothing of note.
He talked about the strange coincidence of Dr. Condon's involvement as a go between, the ransom payment, showed pictures of where the body was found, and showed the gruesome photos of the corpse.
Later, oddly enough, he was the prison guard assigned to Hauptmann when he was first arrested. As a German native Stockburger was in a unique position to converse with Hauptman and listen in on his private conversations with others, but mostly Hauptman was quiet and didn't open up to him. At the end of the talk he was asked if he thought Hauptman could have done it. He said "Some people think he did, and some people think he didn't. He certainly didn't do it by himself, but he was one cold son of a bitch".
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 12, 2022 16:33:55 GMT -5
We had dinner recently with my brother-in-law and a fellow Mason of his. We got talking about history (this guy is a Civil War buff) and the Lindburgh Kidnapping came up. Apparently, before my brother-in-law's time, Hugo Stockbuger was a brother and a member of the same lodge. He was well into his 90s and gave a talk at the lodge about the kidnapping. He, as you all know, was a NJ State Trooper on duty the night of the kidnapping. He was on his motorcycle the night of the kidnapping, monitoring the Rt 1 Corridor when the call came in. Various gas stations along the route had phone booths and if a call came into the station the owners would put a red light out to flag the officer as they cruised their beat and they would call into headquarters for any news or updates from the phone booth. Of course that night the news was The Crime of the Century! He was told to keep an eye out for anything suspicious along Rt1, particularly around New Brunswick, but saw nothing of note. He talked about the strange coincidence of Dr. Condon's involvement as a go between, the ransom payment, showed pictures of where the body was found, and showed the gruesome photos of the corpse. Later, oddly enough, he was the prison guard assigned to Hauptmann when he was first arrested. As a German native Stockburger was in a unique position to converse with Hauptman and listen in on his private conversations with others, but mostly Hauptman was quiet and didn't open up to him. At the end of the talk he was asked if he thought Hauptman could have done it. He said "Some people think he did, and some people think he didn't. He certainly didn't do it by himself, but he was one cold son of a bitch". Interesting post, stella7. Could you kindly explain how your brother-in-law knew the gist of Stockburger's speech to the Masonic Lodge re the LKC? Did someone collect a video or audio of the speech and present it to your brother-in-law or his fellow Mason? Seems as if Stockburger would be unusually honest as a retired police officer in saying that the police and prosecutors got the case botched up by claiming that Hauptmann certainly didn't do it by himself.
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Post by Wayne on Jul 12, 2022 20:49:24 GMT -5
We had dinner recently with my brother-in-law and a fellow Mason of his. We got talking about history (this guy is a Civil War buff) and the Lindburgh Kidnapping came up. Apparently, before my brother-in-law's time, Hugo Stockbuger was a brother and a member of the same lodge. He was well into his 90s and gave a talk at the lodge about the kidnapping. He, as you all know, was a NJ State Trooper on duty the night of the kidnapping. He was on his motorcycle the night of the kidnapping, monitoring the Rt 1 Corridor when the call came in. Various gas stations along the route had phone booths and if a call came into the station the owners would put a red light out to flag the officer as they cruised their beat and they would call into headquarters for any news or updates from the phone booth. Of course that night the news was The Crime of the Century! He was told to keep an eye out for anything suspicious along Rt1, particularly around New Brunswick, but saw nothing of note. He talked about the strange coincidence of Dr. Condon's involvement as a go between, the ransom payment, showed pictures of where the body was found, and showed the gruesome photos of the corpse. Later, oddly enough, he was the prison guard assigned to Hauptmann when he was first arrested. As a German native Stockburger was in a unique position to converse with Hauptman and listen in on his private conversations with others, but mostly Hauptman was quiet and didn't open up to him. At the end of the talk he was asked if he thought Hauptman could have done it. He said "Some people think he did, and some people think he didn't. He certainly didn't do it by himself, but he was one cold son of a bitch". Stella, Mark Falzini became good friends with Hugo Stockburger and if memory serves, Stockburger was the last NJSP Trooper involved with the LKC to die (in 2007). Mark wrote a great article about him on his blog: njspmuseum.blogspot.com/2006/
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Post by stella7 on Jul 13, 2022 6:47:37 GMT -5
Sorry Hurt, I didn't explain that well. They were all brother masons at the Princeton, NJ lodge. Hugo Stockburger gave a talk at the lodge before he died about the LKC, so he must have been about 97-98 years old. At that point he wasn't divulging anything new. My brother-in-law's friend was telling us what he talked about and at the end of the talk asked him if he thought Hauptman did it. My brother-in-law didn't remember Hugo Stockburger so it must have been before he joined the masons.
We were on our way into a concert (Best of the Eagles if you have a chance to see them on tour, you should!) so I didn't get much of a chance to ask him questions.
Yes Wayne, he told him he was the last living NJSP trooper that worked on the case! I'll check out Mark's blog. Thanks.
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Post by stella7 on Jul 13, 2022 15:21:30 GMT -5
Thanks Wayne, a life well lived!
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Post by IloveDFW on Jul 14, 2022 6:15:27 GMT -5
ilovedfw, did your dad work for Mr. and Mrs. Woods who owned White Cloud Farm? They were favorite customers of both my dad(manager of LaVake Jewelers) and my father-in-law(owner of Hill's Market) both in Princeton. Stella... YES!!
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