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Post by rick3 on Nov 18, 2007 21:30:17 GMT -5
My question is a simple one: What evidence connects Jafsie Condon with the Temple of Divine Power, Peter or John Birritella or Mary Cerrita? - On page 100 Gardner suggests a role for Peters bro John as a Taxi driver. He could have brought the mysterious woman on March 8th OR could he have been Taxi driver #2--if there was one?
- on page 409 Gardner reminds us that the Temple was diagonally acrossed the street from Fischs apartment AND that Mary Cerrita could have been the Tuckahoe woman Condon met at the violin bazaar.
- I'm intrigued by the sequence of Mary and Peter's seance with Breckenridge and Rosner on March 6th. It seems they were trying to get into Highfields to reconnoiter the crime scene?(or pickup items for the extortion in the Bronx?)
- But when they only get as far as the Princeton Hotel they forshadow "JFC" Condons letter to the BHNews and subsequent ransom note by mail. Then Condon gets to Highfields to deliver the note predicted by Mary.
- All this seems carefully orchestrated. If Condon is connected to this little Family Group at the Temple then they all could be coordinating their efforts to extort the $50,000 in St.Raymonds.
- Didn't someone opine that Condon too attended the Temple--and had more than a passing interest in spritualism?
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Post by Michael on Nov 19, 2007 6:07:52 GMT -5
I know of no "evidence" he ever attended this church. It has been suggested but I've seen nothing to support this claim.
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Post by rick3 on Nov 20, 2007 4:09:13 GMT -5
Michael--you seem less than enthusiastic about Gardner's suspicions about some messenger role for the Biratella Family? We shouldnt overlook that they speak Italian and could have been involved in the Statto Citta phone call to Condon as well? Here are two further quotes I found: - Wayne Jones pg 618..(eg quoting from Theon Wright) Apparently Wright and Dunniger are interviewing the Biratellas on December 30th 1934: "Were any of the members of your Church involved with the Lindbergh Case?" Biratella responded: "Well, they were not really members--but we knew them as freguent visitors. The man who signed himself as JJ Faulkner on the deposit slip for the ransom money was known to us as Falconi. And there was Jafsie Condon, Isador Fisch and also Violet Sharpe. Dr. Condon was very interested in Spiritualism."
- FBI Files page 425: ...on March 21st 1933 Mr. Al Dunlap, publisher of Detective magazine, exhibited to Special Agent in Charge Purvis of the Chicago office, a portion of a letter referring to the Lindbergh kidnap and extortion case, which had been recieved from the magazine "Startling Detective Adventures" in Minneapolis, reading as follows:
"....There were no gangsters involved. Two men and several women all of them "spicks" still dwelling in the Spanish-Negro section of Harlem. Harlem, incidentally is where most of the ransom money was found. "The principals in the LKC have been up all night for the past 3 nites with Secret Service Men, who finally got one of the women to talk. Some of the original suspects freed were in on it, as was the one suicide. (eg Violet Sharpe?) "If the father (eg CAL?) doesnt interfere this time, the Government will send them to Jail." end quote
- Why, or how, per Lloyd Gardner, would the Birratellas get involved as so-called messengers or go-betweens in the first place? Wouldnt this be considered dangerous?
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Post by Michael on Nov 20, 2007 6:08:00 GMT -5
Actually, I do believe they played a messenger role. I just don't believe there's any real proof Condon attended their church. Look, I have copies of the phone taps. It appears they mention Rosner and refer to the case. Madden went over there to scare them but they wouldn't talk. If Condon, Sharp, etc. had attended their church then why did they sit on this information so long if the goal was to provide helpful information?
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Post by rick3 on Nov 20, 2007 10:20:18 GMT -5
- They were already down to Princeton on Sunday March 6th, which is pretty quickly. Noone listened?
- It looks like they are more part of the extortion than part of any real solution? They were banking $ome $small payment$ all along.
- Probably for the same reason that Thomas F. Rice, and Alfred W. Jones, and Abraham Samuelsohn waited as long as possible to come forward? And Robert Thayer couldnt leave fast enough?
- The LKH is ripe from top to bottom with crooked cops, crooked alibis, crooked gangsters feathering ther own nests and CAL protecting as many persons as he can by threats? Its a wonder anyone would touch it with a ten foot pole. After all Ellis Parker Sr. ended up dying in prison? Noone protected EHP?
- Maybe some secret warning to steer clear can be found in the Symbol?
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Post by Michael on Nov 20, 2007 20:50:54 GMT -5
I think there's evidence all over the place of this gang employing "outsiders" to do some of the dangerous "dirty" work. Utilizing Perrone is one example - then there's the Scissors Grinder and Needle Salesman who were probably used too etc.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 20, 2007 21:34:11 GMT -5
Having agents posted in the neighborhood to watch Condon's house, might the needle/scissors men also have been BI?
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Post by Michael on Nov 21, 2007 6:21:02 GMT -5
Wouldn't have been the FBI because I have their reports concerning intense investigations trying to find the identity of these people....
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Post by rmc1971 on Nov 21, 2007 8:48:21 GMT -5
Michael - any info in your FBI papers on how they missed Lindbergh and Condon leave Condon's house the night of the ransom drop? I was wondering if they had any explanation for that.
Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but I got an book off Amazon a couple years back that has the FBI files on the case. But when I got it I was disappointed to find that it was only the files related to the BRH investigation, not the whole LKC. It's interesting for what it is, but I was excepting so much more.
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Post by Michael on Nov 21, 2007 17:38:50 GMT -5
I do have a report or two covering this which I think Lloyd gave me. Because of this I believe something on this may be in his book The Case That Never Dies. I am not home right now but I will check this out or someone else could check it out before then.
Special Agent Lackney had rented a room directly across the street and saw the cars coming and going. Remember the Authorities were forbidden by Lindbergh from interfering with the ransom drop so this surveillance was done in secret. Reporters and the NYPD were also engaging in secret surveillance as well. Again, I'll have to check the reports once I get home but I think I remember the NYPD attempting to follow them but their car broke down.....
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Post by rick3 on Nov 22, 2007 9:15:27 GMT -5
I think there's evidence all over the place of this gang employing "outsiders" to do some of the dangerous "dirty" work. Utilizing Perrone is one example - then there's the Scissors Grinder and Needle Salesman who were probably used too etc. - Do you assume that the "gang" is the "they" that paid for Peter and Marys train tickets to Princeton Junction on Sunday March 6th?
- As such, wouldnt the gang, or at least one member, (eg Sharpe/Fisch?) need to have prior knowledge, trust or a close connection to the Temple of Divine Power in Harlem before the instant snatch?
- I wonder why the Temple would be considered such an attractive candidate for messengers? Because Mary and Peter are small-time cons a priori?
- Are you assuming that Owney Madden and Rosner scared them off after a couple weeks when they went into hiding for 6months?
- Happy Turkey Day!
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 22, 2007 12:03:30 GMT -5
Happy Thanksgiving, all! Rick~ Could you elaborate on Peter and Mary going into hiding for 6 months? Sounds interesting. They seem so obviously involved at some level. I notice -Theon Wright, I think, said they quoted JJ Faulkner being a church visitor. Of course they could have already heard of the name and may have just added it on--but why?
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Post by Michael on Nov 22, 2007 15:35:14 GMT -5
Honestly I'd have to disagree. It makes more sense if they had no personal connection to whoever they decided to employ. Perhaps they did a little investigation into them before hand though.... Simply take Perrone as the "control" here. I am quite certain they had no idea who he was. ++++ Want to share a little of my world with you here.... Searching for the report in re Agent Lackney I started with the Taxi Search file then to all of Condon's files. No luck. Then I moved on to Agent Sisk's file which referenced a July 21 report but it wasn't in there. Next I tried O'Sullivan's file which lead me to Irey's - still no luck. I know I have it but it may take some time to find the damn thing. Please bear with me.
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Post by rick3 on Nov 23, 2007 11:34:40 GMT -5
Mairi--there are only a handful of sources on Cerrita and Birrittella: - FBI Files....pages 419-425
- Theon Wright--pages 90-92, 219-220 & 232
- Wayne Jones--pages 616-619
- Lloyd Gardner--pages 49-51,100-101, 408-409 & 423
- Behind the Mediums Cabinet--Joe Dunninger
- Frederick Collins--Liberty Magazine April 4 1936--'Before the Body was found Mary said the Baby was Murdered"
One of the above sources stated that the Gangster element that took Mary and Peter for rides in Mercer and Huntindon County scared them to death so badly they got married....eg Owney "the killer' Madden, Spitale, Bitz and Mickey Rosner. (Loss of Eden pp 242-243) 2. I have also seen a couple sources that Septimus Banks, who accompanied Violet Sharpe to Harlem to visit a speakeasy just up East 127th Street from the Temple of Divine Power, also died by 1936 and added to a list of mysterious LKC deaths? Can anyone confirm this? See Major Frank Pease--Hole in the Hauptmann Case pp.7.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Nov 23, 2007 15:18:18 GMT -5
Rick~ Thank you so much for the good references! I must confess my "system" is a big scramble! I must come up with a better way of sorting sources. Here on the day after, is everyone having good turkey sandwiches?
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Post by rick3 on Nov 24, 2007 8:18:10 GMT -5
Mairi--the passage we were hunting for is in Loss of Eden by Joyce Milton. See also footnote 6 on pages 498-499:
"In retrospect it seems almost unbelievable that Birrattella and Cirrata--the only links the authorities had to the crime--were not pursued more industriously? The NJ authorities had no jurisdiction. The NY police did not have any opportunity to question Peter and Mary before Owney Madden had seen them, and they seemed to have been influenced by the rumor that they were working for Mickey Rosner/ Meanwhile, treasury agent Frank J. Wilson who was checking them out, was officially removed from the case in the summer of 1932, when the case was transferred to the FBI. Some months passed before the FBI became interested in the pair ......" p.498 Loss of Eden
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Post by Michael on Nov 25, 2007 19:34:47 GMT -5
It appears Agent Lackney, as well as NYPD Itchner and Clune saw them leave. None saw a Taxi deliver the ransom note so its clear Condon lied about this. According to Finn, Officers attempted to tail Lindbergh and Condon but their car broke down. Lindbergh also would claim people were following them but he was able to lose them. The reports say that Oliver was the one who detailed Clune & Itchner as well as having Officer Cramer wire tap the Condon home. Lindbergh had asked Mulrooney not to involve his men in at the stage of ransom negotiation and Mulrooney agreed, therefore, Oliver was breaking rank so his men didn't make any written reports on the matter.
In Schoenfeld's book, it claims Oliver himself tailed Lindbergh & Condon. This was brought to my attention by either (or both) Sue and/or Kevin. I have found nothing in any report to back this up and it does seem unlikely if Oliver had detailed those I mentioned above.
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Post by rmc1971 on Nov 27, 2007 9:24:41 GMT -5
Michael, do you think any other characters in the drama can be linked to Peter, John and Mary?
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Post by Michael on Nov 28, 2007 6:25:28 GMT -5
Well, I am not sure how to answer that. There are so many possibilities that I would never discount them all. However, as far as Whateley, Sharp, etc. actually attending their church - I have found no evidence of this and think the few sources for it are suspect to say the least. I do think there is a "spiritual" angle to this so perhaps that's where the idea to bring these people in came from in the first place....
Not sure about this Rick. Off the top of my head I believe that Banks lived well past '36.
BTW:
Anyone following the recent discussion on the other board which has been emailed to me I wanted to simply answer it here so everyone knows the true situation....
Walt is correct and Hickman is wrong. Highfields could be seen from the spot where the baby was found in 1932. All of the source material clearly states this. I have one report which says it could even be determined if the lights in the house were on or off from that vantage point. It is different now due to the tress which have grown up in places they did not exist back then.
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Post by Michael on Nov 29, 2007 6:19:51 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on Nov 29, 2007 13:01:22 GMT -5
Michael--this is a good find: eg Sam Berritelli. Another brother of Peter Berritella? Wonder if Sam met Fisch at the Knickerbocker Pie Company Hqtrs? [that makes 3 men and one woman Mary]
2. According to Public Data.com Septimus Banks lived until 1970:
Name BANKS,SEPTIMUS Social Security Number 072120726 Verify/Proof: none found Last Known ZIP Code: 07747 Lump Sum Payment ZIP Code State/Country of Residence New Jersey Date of Birth: Sep 28 1891 Date of Death: Jan 1970
3. Its a mystery why the London Examiner and Pease thought Banks was dead by 1936?
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Post by Michael on Nov 30, 2007 20:12:56 GMT -5
Are you talking about Major Pease?
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Post by Michael on Dec 2, 2007 10:20:48 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on Jan 2, 2008 12:15:06 GMT -5
OK then, Happy 2008 and back to more tractible issues:
Here is a great question asked over on Lindykidnap #7668 Oct'04 by aneventof32:
eg Who told BRH and the note writer about the details of seance? See:
The Case That Never Dies: The Lindbergh Kidnapping - Google Books Resultby Lloyd C. Gardner - 2004 - True Crime ... the reverend had in tow his medium, Mary Cerrita, “a plumply pretty” ... Cerrita announced that she wished to be taken to the Lindbergh house and be ...page 50 books.google.com/books?isbn=0813533856...
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Post by Michael on Jan 2, 2008 17:10:53 GMT -5
It' s pretty obvious (to me) the Culprits employed the use of others whenever possible (e.g. Perrone). And so these "mystics" were armed with whatever information these people were willing to share with them.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 6, 2008 8:11:02 GMT -5
Michael...in a way this really begs the question. On the one hand it is understandable for the "gang" to use others to deliver information like ransom notes. However, in the case of Cerrita and Birrittella, it appears they are more than that. They show up in person and begin to discuss go-betweens and negotiate further ransom notes with Rosner and Breckenridge. This is more than just a gopher? - B and C dont even know who is going to meet them at the train? Could it have been CAL himself?
- They also don't know what questions will be ask them?
- They seem to be negotiating with Breckenridge to deliver another ransom note "sooner rather than later" and designating Breckenridge as the official go-between?
- If B and C know even one of the gang--then isnt is dangerous to walk into the Lions Den? They could have been arrested? After all thats what happened to Curtis?
- The letter Mary predicts comes to Breckenbridge the next day.
- Later, B and C had two more seances with Rosner and Owney Madden--during one she says the baby is now DEAD--this was 3-4 weeks before the body was found--4 and 1/2 miles from Highfields.
- There is something fishy about all this "inside knowledge" of the crime? B and C seem to have confidence that they are never going to be charged as co-conspirators to the putative kidnap or murder? Why not?
- Newspapers (Dorothy Dumas) picked up thier participation as early as April 17, 1933....before the Dunninger-Wright interviews.
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Post by Michael on Jan 6, 2008 8:49:16 GMT -5
Not in my opinion. It seems to me they were utilized because of their hustle. Additionally, it they were employed in this way they were trusted insofar as those people using them didn't fear getting caught because they were trustworthy in that regard and/or somehow kept their identities from them.
I promise you if Owney Madden started breaking kneecaps someone would have been ratted out or at least the truth would have been known concerning their involvement.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 6, 2008 9:57:06 GMT -5
Not in my opinion. Seems to me there is alot more cunning and cleverness here than just hustle? B and C are attempting to gain access to the crime scene and the Lindberghs. Maybe even a sleeping suite and some of Charlies toys or safety pins to exchange as evidence of actually holding him? Perrone the taxi driver ended up as a proscecution witness fingering BRH? Not Mary and the Rev? How do you propose they act as go-betweens and go-back-betweens when they get back to Harlem if they dont know the identity of one of the gang? Fisch, Henkels, Uhlig and Kloppenberg live justacrossed the street at Mrs. Selma Kohls rooming house on E. 127th? Someplace to start. Gardner connects them as "continuing messengers" on page 409 of TCTNDies.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Jan 6, 2008 18:33:03 GMT -5
Hi Rick~`This would be based upon V. Sharpe/O. Whateley actually attending the B &C church (though I guess there is no real proof of it). Have wondered if word of the B&C meeting/interview reached Violet and if it was what tipped her over the edge (?) Had she again talked too much about the Lindberghs/Morrows(?) I believe word could have readily gotten back to her. I am in a scramble about which things B&C said on what date. If we could sort through which things they said before certain things became public it would be a help. I agree with you about that first meeting. They did seem to know things they couldn't have unless there was some sort of linkage.
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Post by rick3 on Jan 7, 2008 12:32:03 GMT -5
Hi Mairi--well of course you are right on--but I think it is nye on impossible to determine who knew or said what when? Who can we trust....Breckenbridge? Rosner?....B and C? Maybe we can trust the following - A telegram was sent to Highfields and read by Rosner or Thayer on Sunday March 6th. (Even this is very clever to get in!)
- One of them called the Rev or Mary back to set up a meeting.
- They come out on the train to Princeton Junction....they go to a Princeton hotel room for the seance--but not Charlies room?
- Breckenridge is totally skeptical about Marys powers
- Some sort of dialogue takes place at that time. Mary reckons that Breckenbridge should stay close to his office in NYC for a contact?
- Then, quite miraculously, Breckenbridge gets a note Tuesday morning mailed Monday with the appropriate symbol?
- All of this proves interesting enough for Rosner, Madden, Spitale and Bitz to chase B and C around for the next few weeks?
They take them for rides trying to find the farmhouse on the hill in Hopewell?
- We just cant say when exactly "the Light" shown on JFCs initials or when the Baby was pronounced "dead"?
- None of the above appears in the papers--so how does the gang know to send a letter to Breckenbridge on Monday?
- Shades of John Condon and CJ--are the Birrittellas delivering information or phishing for information?
- Why are B and C so eager to get involved in a putative murder-kidnap?
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