Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Dec 21, 2013 17:50:49 GMT -5
Yes, the body was turned over, that is why the right leg in located next to the left hip. I do not see over lapping toes in the close up photo of the right foot. I'd like to be very clear here...in regard to Dr. VanIngen's letter to Elizabeth Morrow (Anne's mom): The baby they found in the cold New Jersey woods had blonde curly hair and his birthdate was February 18, 1931. In the letter it describes the corpse's features, as opposed to Charlie Jr.'s features. Per Dr. VanIngen: 1)The baby is 33" tall and 26lbs....but he should be 34" and 27ilbs. Per Dr. VanIngen 2) The baby has 16 teeth...but ha should have 21 teeth Per Dr. VanIngen 3) The baby's fontanel still may be detectable on the head (**Yes, that's because the baby in the woods was younger than Charlie!)...but should be closed.
***Michael/Board...Has anyone ever seen (or have a have a copy) of the dietary menu from Dr. VanIngen that was published in many northeast newspapers??
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Post by Michael on Dec 21, 2013 20:08:32 GMT -5
. ***Michael/Board...Has anyone ever seen (or have a have a copy) of the dietary menu from Dr. VanIngen that was published in many northeast newspapers??Is this what you are looking for (linked from Ronelle's Site: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/vaningen.pdf)?
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Dec 22, 2013 22:29:47 GMT -5
No, Michael, this is the VanIngin letter from which the newspaper publication was derived from. The newspapers only took part of the letter (dietary information and I don't know what else!),as if they were giving a shout out to the kidnappers of the northeast. They were publishing what Charlie Jr., should be fed, but I believe it was directions on how to dispose of the baby body they found. They could not have direct contact with the bad guys at that time. The publication date would be important, as well as what words were really published. I have wanted to see a copy of this for a very long time. THANK YOU.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Dec 24, 2013 22:26:48 GMT -5
ATTN: Michael...and Board, Has anyone seen or have a copy of any northeast newspaper that published the dietary information instructions for the kidnappers to feed Charlie Jr.? PLEASE HELP ME IN FINDING THIS! Thank you!
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Post by Michael on Dec 25, 2013 7:01:42 GMT -5
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Dec 30, 2013 1:10:29 GMT -5
Michael.. Thank you so much for getting one of the published articles I have be looking for!! I am wondering what other information was published in other northeast states...ESPECIALLY FROM CONNECTICUT?? I have not had time to read the article in full..but I did notice that the newspapers printed the need for Charlie Jr, to take Vioserol, whereas Dr. VanIngen didn't mention anything about Vitamin D or Vioserol! How could he have forgotten to write down such an important daily medicine in his letter to E. Morrow?
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 5, 2014 18:00:40 GMT -5
I think Alan should get an extra star for his comments about the relationship of pediatricians of James Warburg and the Lindbergh Family, on the James Warburg Thread. Alan, Smoking gun? I would say so. ** The second meeting with "John" occurred at St. Raymond's Cemetery in the Bronx. This time Dr. Condon was driven to the cemetery by Charles Lindbergh. Dr. Condon told Lindbergh to stay in the car (it was parked half a block away) with the ransom money. This would be Condon's 2nd meeting with "John". .... "Hey Doctor!" ---What are the chances that Philip VanIngen WAS the doctor?? He had his fingers in many cookie jars, (almost tentacles) including many children's hospitals all in the northeast.(ie: Meridian Sanatorium, a hospital for children with TB. They checked in, but never checked out.) This is where I believe the switch of Charles Jr. happened. **"(The Lindberghs would eventually name their second child Jon. It is difficult to understand. Anne gave birth only 5 months after Cemetery "John's" involvement in the extortion plot.)" Wow, how do you process that one? ***Amy35, always happy to read your comments. As for the newspaper article, published in Baltimore Maryland, there is no doubt in my mind that VanIngen was involved in the Baltimore area at some time.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 6, 2014 21:15:52 GMT -5
Michael, in regard to the newspaper article that you have posted/linked above, I have never seen so many adjectives use in a newspaper article describing such love. Mrs. Lindbergh described Charlie Jr. as "The Lindbergh Baby" in her plea to the kidnappers. Anne also gave dietary information on record that did not follow Dr. P. VanIngen's dietary information that was given to Mrs. E. Morrow (grandmother). Hummm, some protein for Charlie Jr. (instead of a raw egg) would have been a nice thought. Of course I must mention again, that VanIngen's letter said nothing about a vitamin D deficiency and a whole lot about meats that must have blood running out and not burnt.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 8, 2014 20:41:06 GMT -5
As I said before, my grandfather was arrested on kidnapping charges (I believe in Washington DC), after they saw my dad sitting in the back seat with my aunt. My grandfather always took my aunt along everywhere, as it was a good way to "blend in" while on his frequent visits to the northeast states. This included his trips to run liquor and on his airplane flights. It was my "Uncle Max Boyer" the Lawyer for the New Jersey Police Department, who was able to get all charges dropped. He was very influential..... Easy Peezy!!
This story was entertaining to my family when I was a kid, but as time went on, my family began to realize that my dad had all the same physical features of Charlie Jr.. There were no books or reference materials that could help us understand what to do. As far as a BOLO (Be on the lookout), after the kidnapping, every person in the northeast was on the lookout. There was an incredible amount of ambition to find the kidnapped baby and everyone wanted to be involved.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 10, 2014 17:27:44 GMT -5
Michael or Board: * Did Anne or Charles Lindbergh ever have diabetes? Did it run in either family?? Thanks.
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Post by Michael on Jan 11, 2014 8:12:06 GMT -5
Michael or Board: * Did Anne or Charles Lindbergh ever have diabetes? Did it run in either family?? Thanks. I have no idea.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 14, 2014 23:09:23 GMT -5
"James Paul Warburg (August 18, 1896 – June 3, 1969) was a German-born American banker. He was notably well known for being the financial adviser to Franklin D. Roosevelt. His father was banker Paul Warburg, member of the Warburg family and "father" of the Federal Reserve system." He traveled a lot, especially to South Hampton, England. Departure 10-23-1931 from France to NY Departure 6-5-1932 from Breman, Germany to NY Departure 8-21-1932 from England to NY Departure 3-18-1935 from Hamiton, Bermuda to NY There are many more travels, but I just wanted to point out a few. James P. Warburg was a very busy man.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 20, 2014 22:25:46 GMT -5
New York Time "WESTBURY, L.I., July 13, 1915. -- Dr. Philip Van Ingen of 125 East Seventyfirst Street, Manhattan, was badly injured, and Mrs. Cornelius N. Bliss, Jr., of Wheatley Hills, wife of the New York banker. Michael or Board: Did The Bliss Family know the Warburg Family?
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2014 19:47:34 GMT -5
New York Time "WESTBURY, L.I., July 13, 1915. -- Dr. Philip Van Ingen of 125 East Seventyfirst Street, Manhattan, was badly injured, and Mrs. Cornelius N. Bliss, Jr., of Wheatley Hills, wife of the New York banker. Michael or Board: Did The Bliss Family know the Warburg Family? I have no idea Aimee. Alan would be your best source here. Try shooting him a PM in case he's missed your question.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jan 26, 2014 9:25:22 GMT -5
It is my belief that Anne lost the baby on that last high altitude flight. (Anne wouldn't get out of the plane)ie:Baby was replaced with Dwight Jr.'s baby (with unmarried girlfriend -ie: breakdown time after that) Baby kidnapped, baby didn't work out anyway. Bye bye to the baby..hello back to the girlfriend's family. A complicated feat, no doubt..but a good one.
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2014 9:08:37 GMT -5
It is my belief that Anne lost the baby on that last high altitude flight. (Anne wouldn't get out of the plane)ie:Baby was replaced with Dwight Jr.'s baby (with unmarried girlfriend -ie: breakdown time after that) Baby kidnapped, baby didn't work out anyway. Bye bye to the baby..hello back to the girlfriend's family. A complicated feat, no doubt..but a good one. Many rumors about DMJr. One was that he and Sharpe were an item. I've found that he was extremely intelligent but possessed with a mental illness which gave rise to the alcoholism, and drug addiction claims (which were probably versions of self-). There were four "versions" concerning the Baby and that flight involve Anne. One was that she went to the hospital where the child was still-born. Then next was that this child was born prematurely and this fact was being kept quiet by the family. The third was that Anne was nursed back to health, but there were predictions the child may have been harmed. And of course "history" records absolutely nothing happened, and if someone said any different they were "screwballs," or "revisionists." It's pretty clear she was harmed. The questions remain, in my mind, about the unborn child.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2014 15:15:28 GMT -5
You are sure right about that! I am going to post something along those very lines below. Perhaps you can set me straight on this possibility.
When you made this statement were you talking about Violet Sharpe or her sister Edna (Emily)?
Edna worked for Constance Chilton, Elisabeth Morrow's partner at The Little School. Might it be possible that Dwight Jr. met Edna in 1930? Could they have had an affair? The reason I ask this is because of two things posted on the Violet Sharpe's Suicide thread found on Page 3 of the General Discussion section. Just bear with me on this:
On page 7 of the Violet thread there is a post by Rick3 dated November 25, 2006. In this post Rick mentions that Edna Sharpe lives with Constance Chilton. He then goes on to say that Edna quits working with Chilton May 25, 1931 to go into the hospital in Englewood. She then goes off to a woman's home in Whiteplains, NY.
On page 5 of the same Violet thread you posted on November 5, 2006 information about Marie Cummings, the baby nurse used by the Lindberghs when Charlie was born in June 1930. You then go on to mention that in June 1931 Marie Cummings was hired by Mrs. Morrow's sister to take care of a recently adopted child.
Now, Edna Sharpe goes into the hospital the end of May 1931. From there she then goes to a facility in Whiteplains, NY. At the same time Mrs. Morrow's sister has need for a baby nurse to take care of a recently adopted child. Could Edna have had a child with Dwight Jr. and this child was then adopted by someone?
I know I am speculating here. Its just that the dates jumped out at me and I started thinking........Edna, Violet or both?
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Post by Gary Bristow on Jan 27, 2014 19:50:05 GMT -5
In Edna's interview with Schwarzkopf she said (Edna) she was in the hospital 3 months and then two weeks in a convalescent home in White Plains. I took a picture of one of her bills. May 4-7 $4 day Englewood Hospital Association. So she may have been more in and out. For the life of me I didn't record why she was there..I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a pregnancy or it would have come up in the interview. At the time I was focusing on Violet
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2014 20:21:33 GMT -5
You are sure right about that! I am going to post something along those very lines below. Perhaps you can set me straight on this possibility. I hope we can ALL set each other straight.... So far so good. Everyone here has certainly helped me! When you made this statement were you talking about Violet Sharpe or her sister Edna (Emily)? It was supposed to have been Violet. These rumors were really attached to the "illegitimate" Morrow son. This son was supposed to have been actually DMJr. so I made the leap in this post. But honestly, there actually may have been an illegitimate son too, and somehow DMJr. and that son morphed into one person. I've accepted the possibility but I do not believe Violet had anything to do with "either." Still though, don't let what I think disqualify any ideas you may have. In Edna's interview with Schwarzkopf she said (Edna) she was in the hospital 3 months and then two weeks in a convalescent home in White Plains. I took a picture of one of her bills. May 4-7 $4 day Englewood Hospital Association. So she may have been more in and out. For the life of me I didn't record why she was there..I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a pregnancy or it would have come up in the interview. At the time I was focusing on Violet. I will try to find why she was there tonight... Gary, I know you've done a ton of research on Violet. Do you believe Violet had an abortion or do you think this was just rumor?
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Post by Michael on Jan 28, 2014 6:36:22 GMT -5
In Edna's interview with Schwarzkopf she said (Edna) she was in the hospital 3 months and then two weeks in a convalescent home in White Plains. I took a picture of one of her bills. May 4-7 $4 day Englewood Hospital Association. So she may have been more in and out. For the life of me I didn't record why she was there..I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been a pregnancy or it would have come up in the interview. At the time I was focusing on Violet. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted
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Post by Gary Bristow on Jan 28, 2014 19:41:46 GMT -5
I don't have anything to contribute about this unfortunately. I will say based on Joyce Milton and I don't have the book with me now Betty Gow says she consoled Violet on the guilt and depression concerning the abortion. So I've have had the presupposition that she did but in those days abortions were quieted even more than today because its a judgement of character In reading, Edna's seems very distant. In the discussion of Payne it comes across Edna doesn't know for sure if Violet was married or not. You would think a sister would know these things.
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Post by lightningjew on Jan 30, 2014 5:59:05 GMT -5
Other than her suicide, there really has never been much to tie Violet to the crime. And while a suicide looks pretty incriminating on its own, it really isn't necessarily proof of anything like participation in a conspiracy or guilty knowledge of one. Nevertheless, completely innocent people don't up and kill themselves simply because they feel badgered by police questioning, so what happened? I believe (if memory serves) that Violet was the one who leaked CAL Jr.'s gender to reporters when he was born. She was clearly willing, then, to speak to outsiders about the family. Could she have assumed, correctly or incorrectly, that she had done something similar with the kidnapping--inadvertently facilitating it by saying something to the wrong person about where the Lindberghs were that night? Under this assumption, this fear, could she have gotten nervous and started generally lying to police, making her a person of interest they were not going to let go of? At that point, not only would Violet have been terrified about the possibility of having helped the kidnappers, but, compounding this, could there also have been the possibility that the police would, on further investigation, uncover sordid but completely unrelated background information on her (a secret abortion and/or secret marriage)? This would've been pretty scandalous, would've (in her mind at least) cost her her job, so her life would've been over--hence her suicide alongside the apparent lack of evidence that she had anything to do with the kidnapping. Personally, if there was something secret in Violet's past--and I don't think there absolutely had to have been; her fear over having facilitated the kidnapping could've been enough to drive her over the edge--but if there was something else in her past, I think this was probably the extent of its involvement with the crime.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2014 17:42:03 GMT -5
I agree with what you are saying LJ. There is really nothing tying Violet to the kidnapping or extortion. I do find her suicide perplexing. Such a drastic reaction to all the questioning. Of course, if what you suggest about her possibly leaking some information that might have resulted in Charlie being taken, she became so overwhelmed by guilt she wanted to end her life right then.
The fact that she could not satisfactorily explain what she was doing on the evening of March 1 bothers me. If you have nothing to hide, she should have been able to explain what she was doing. I just feel that something was being covered up and she was trying not to have to say what it was. When Violet was shown the picture of Ernie Brinkert and identified him as the man she was with March 1, I don't think she even knew who he was. When the police said that they would pick him up and bring him so she could physically ID him that must have really worried her. Ernie's name was on the business card they found in Violet's room. Could that be why she identified his picture? I think that the business card was from some of Edna's things that were left with Violet when Edna went back to England. The convalescent home that Edna stayed in for 2 weeks in Whiteplains NY was not that far from the Post Road Taxi Company. Since the people staying at the convalescent home were allowed to leave during the day to do things, Edna might have used that taxi cab company to go places while she was recovering there. Could be even Ernie might have been driving the cab sometimes.
I think there were secrets to protect and Violet was struggling to do that.
I received the book "Autobiography of Values" today. I am looking forward to reading it. I am hoping it will help me to understand Lindbergh's thinking and beliefs. I took a quick scan of the pictures. There are 81 of them! Many I have not seen before especially of his children. Sadly, Lindbergh only included one picture of Charlie and I was very disappointed in the one he chose. He put into the book the one we all have seen many times. It is the one of Charlie sitting in the little chair next to his 1st birthday cake. I thought to myself "this is the best he could do"? It just seemed so impersonal compared to the other family pictures he used in the book. I guess Charlie was stuck forever in his mind this way. Very sad.
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Post by lightningjew on Jan 30, 2014 23:08:56 GMT -5
I agree that Violet could very well have had secrets--just ones that were unrelated to the crime, which she was afraid would come out. I see what you're saying about her not remembering her whereabouts, not just saying where she was on March 1, but it could've simply been that she was doing something which, in retrospect, might come off as disreputable--to her mind at least; wherever she went and whatever she did, she was, by her own admission, out with a man when she was more or less engaged to another. Whether or not she'd previously been secretly married or had an abortion or something, going out with strange men would still make her look bad, and she could've convinced herself that this kind of behavior was going to cost her her job, plus (and I think this was the main thing) she could've been terrified she'd said something that aided the kidnappers. So, given all this, when her turn came to be questioned, she started blurting out stories about roadhouses and movies and random, handy names on business cards in her room, etc.--all out of sheer panic before ultimately trying to kill herself. I say 'trying' because she may not have actually wanted to die, just to get the police off her back. Drinking the silver polish could've been an attempt at buying time so she could think things out, fully explain and extricate herself. But unfortunately, the poison went all the way and killed her. I don't know, outside of all this and barring new information, I just don't see her involvement in or guilty knowledge of the actual crime.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 10:38:58 GMT -5
I do agree with you. I don't think she is guilty of anything in the crime. I have thought about the same possibiliy that she just wanted to make herself ill enough that she could be inaccessible to LE for awhile. I don't think she really wanted to die. Unfortunately, by changing her story in some way every time she was interviewed just made her appear guilty to law enforcement. Then when she identified Brinkert as the man she was with the night of March 1 she just thought she was giving them what they wanted and naively though she would be left alone.
Have you given any consideration that Violet might have been trying to protect or shield someone and this is the reason she was not being forthright about her activities on the night of March 1? Something that had nothing to do with the crime but could be damaging in some other way? Do you know anything solid about the relationship Violet and Septimus Banks actually had? Do you know if it went beyond rumors?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 15:42:35 GMT -5
Why not stay within the framework of the Morrow house to explain Violet's "nervousness"? Remember, the Morrow dressmaker, seamstress, Junge was a prime suspect & her sister is James Warburg's governess. It's reasonable to assume Violet was aware of this REALITY - so close & a friend of someone so "hotly" involved in the investigation. Why not accept this REAL internal framework instead of projecting outside people and connections.
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Post by Michael on Jan 31, 2014 20:25:30 GMT -5
I don't have anything to contribute about this unfortunately. I will say based on Joyce Milton and I don't have the book with me now Betty Gow says she consoled Violet on the guilt and depression concerning the abortion. So I've have had the presupposition that she did but in those days abortions were quieted even more than today because its a judgement of character In reading, Edna's seems very distant. In the discussion of Payne it comes across Edna doesn't know for sure if Violet was married or not. You would think a sister would know these things. Important perspective especially when considering the "accepted" theory behind her suicide came from Edna... that, in essence, it was Violet's fear the Morrow's would learn of her hooking up with strange men. Personally, if there was something secret in Violet's past--and I don't think there absolutely had to have been; her fear over having facilitated the kidnapping could've been enough to drive her over the edge--but if there was something else in her past, I think this was probably the extent of its involvement with the crime. Attachment DeletedI think there were secrets to protect and Violet was struggling to do that. I tend to agree. I don't find something that has already been "aired" to be the cause. Having gone out on a date was common knowledge at this point. It didn't prevent her from having her tonsils removed. I mean, what's the point of it if she was at the point of killing herself? Wouldn't that be the first thing to resolve before the tonsils? IF she did kill herself then I think its tied to the pending interview, which by all indications, upset her. If this is true, then how is it that Septimus Banks was able to tell investigators that the Ernie Violet was talking about was actually Ernie Miller. He told them this after Violet's death. Was Banks ever questioned as to why he knew this but Violet didn't? Amy, could you give me the source for Banks telling Investigators this? As far as Banks goes - here is something from Governor Hoffman's unpublished material on this subject: "Whether or not the Violet Shape affair can make a definite contribution to the ultimate solution of the Lindbergh crime, it is a phase that, by reason of the intense interest it has created, should be discussed in greater detail then has yet been given to the public. The State Police files are woefully inadequate upon this subject. There are references in some statement and reports to other statement and reports that either were not written or that have been removed from the files."
"There is, for instance, no record of the questioning of Septimus Banks upon his relationship with the mysterious Violet, although, in the record of the questioning of the girl herself there are frequent references to information given by Banks to the police."
Do you know anything solid about the relationship Violet and Septimus Banks actually had? Do you know if it went beyond rumors? I recall there was more then one source. Edna was one of them, and I believe its in her statement. Why not stay within the framework of the Morrow house to explain Violet's "nervousness"? Remember, the Morrow dressmaker, seamstress, Junge was a prime suspect & her sister is James Warburg's governess. It's reasonable to assume Violet was aware of this REALITY - so close & a friend of someone so "hotly" involved in the investigation. Why not accept this REAL internal framework instead of projecting outside people and connections. Certainly good advice. However, I do not believe Mrs. Jung was ever a "prime suspect." Do you have a source indicating that she was, or are you just referring to her interviews concerning Red?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 23:18:20 GMT -5
I agree with you. When Violet was confronted with the photograph of Ernie Brinket and identified him as the Ernie she was with on March 1, I really think she thought Walsh would be satisfied with that. When she was told that they would be picking up Ernie Brinkert so she could see him to confirm he was the guy that is when she started to panic and feel trapped. I don't think she knew Ernie Brinkert. That would become clear and she would be in an even more precarious position with the police. But killing herself seems extreme to me. The nurse's report you posted tends to validate that this is something Violet would not have chosen to do to herself. She left the hospital in a hurry after Charlie was found. Mrs. Morrow wanted her to stay put but Violet felt a real need to get back to the Morrow house. She was not running away from anything she was running to it. What was she that concerned about? What or who did she need to protect? The following link is to a newspaper story. In it Walsh says that Ernie Miller was found through information provided by Septimus Banks. I am sure that Walsh would have made a written report on this. I guess you have not come across such a report at the archives?? Please read the paragraph sitting above the blue highlighted article. news.google.com/newspapers?id=qbFQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JyIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3054%2C829176
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Post by lightningjew on Feb 1, 2014 5:24:33 GMT -5
Michael, I'm not sure what that report you posted shows. I see what Amy's saying about Violet going back to the Morrow estate--running to something as opposed to away from it when CAL Jr. was found dead--but what, in your view, does this imply really? That she actually had something to protect or conceal, or only that she thought she did?
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Post by xjd on Feb 1, 2014 10:21:35 GMT -5
amy, do let us know what you think as you read more of the book. CAL is just one of many human enigmas in this case. Your comment about the only picture of Charlie in that book as being the famous 1st birthday one is interesting. i maintain that it's very unusual for the first born of any family,especially a well to do fam like the Morrows, to have so few pictures. Charlie was the first grandchild, for cryin' out loud. even families of modest means if they had a camera usually record the first born more than just a few times. something hinky there.
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