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Post by hurtelable on May 10, 2015 9:54:03 GMT -5
I'm not too sure you have all your facts straight, though I will say that many did believe that Lindbergh had anti-Semitic tendencies.
There is no record of Lindbergh not saying hello to Einstein when Einstein entered the Rockefeller Institute Lab. This would have occurred before Einstein (and his fellow atomic physicists, Szilard and Teller) had designated Lindbergh to refer their letter (regarding the need for the US to develop an atomic weapon to keep ahead of the Nazis' potential technological advances) to President Roosevelt. At that point, Einstein and Lindbergh had apparently met, at least briefly, in the fairly recent past. Einstein, though, was typically politically naïve in thinking that Lindbergh would help him get the message to Roosevelt. Antisemitism may well have had nothing at all to do with Lindbergh's refusal to cooperate, which would be more accurately explained by (1) Lindbergh's stubborn isolationism at the time and (2) Lindbergh's personal antagonism toward Roosevelt and vise versa.
The fact is that Roosevelt had detested Lindbergh dating back to their feud over postal air mail service in 1933-34, and the friction between the two of them was apparent. Roosevelt hatched a plan, approved by Congress, to have all postal air mail carried by military personnel using military aircraft. Lindbergh vehemently objected to Roosevelt, predicting that there would be tragedy as a result of military aircraft being unequipped to do the job. As it turned out, Lindbergh was correct, and there were a string of military pilots who lost their lives in crashes delivering air mail. Eventually, Roosevelt went back to the previous system of private contracting for air mail delivery, though Lindbergh never received any credit from him for issuing the alarm.
As to CAL's alleged "anger at being turned down by Jewish Wall Street for his flight finances," I do not recall hearing about any attempts on his part to seek such financing. Lindbergh, of course, named his plane "The Spirit of St. Louis" because he was being financed by a banking group located there.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 11:14:09 GMT -5
As to CAL's alleged "anger at being turned down by Jewish Wall Street for his flight finances," I do not recall hearing about any attempts on his part to seek such financing. Lindbergh, of course, named his plane "The Spirit of St. Louis" because he was being financed by a banking group located there. After Lindbergh's successful Atlantic flight, he was approached by the jewish Guggenheims who saw Lindbergh as the perfect man to promote aviation and wanted to do this by sponsoring a three month Spirit of St. Louis tour which would have Lindbergh and his plane visit every one of the 48 states. Lindbergh accepted and was paid $50,000 for his participation. Harry Guggenheim and CAL would go on to become friends.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 12:17:53 GMT -5
Billy Wilder's "The Spirit of St. Louis" film has a scene where Lindbergh is asking Charles Levine for financing. This is interesting because Levine is a competitor who will cross the Atlantic with Chamberlain a few months later. Billy also has Lindbergh sleeping in a hotel the night before the flight. My research shows he slept at the leading Republican of Suffolk county's estate the night before.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 9:40:29 GMT -5
Billy Wilder's "The Spirit of St. Louis" film has a scene where Lindbergh is asking Charles Levine for financing. This is interesting because Levine is a competitor who will cross the Atlantic with Chamberlain a few months later. Billy also has Lindbergh sleeping in a hotel the night before the flight. My research shows he slept at the leading Republican of Suffolk county's estate the night before. Billy Wilder's film misses the mark on how things went down with Charles Levine. Lindbergh never asked Levine for financing. Checking sources, here is what took place: Lindbergh had approached Wright Aeronautical Corp in Patterson, NJ about purchasing the Bellanca airplane with the Wright Whirlwind engine. The executives at Wright passed Lindbergh on to Giuseppe Bellanca himself, who was the designer of the plane. Lindbergh discussed his ideas with Bellanca and returned to St. Louis. A group of St. Louis investors had agreed to back Lindbergh's flight to Paris by the time CAL heard from Bellanca again. Charles wanted the rights to the Bellanca plane. Bellanca contacted Lindbergh to come to New York stating in a wire "willing to make attractive proposition on the Bellanca airplance for Paris flight. Suggest you come New York soon possible so we can get together in quickest manner". Of course Lindbergh went to New York where he was then introduced to Charles Levine, who owned the only existing Wright-Bellanca plane. Charles Levine told CAL that he was willing to sell his Bellanca, which was worth $25,000 to Lindbergh for $15,000. The $10,000 dollar difference would represent Levine's company contribution to the flight. Lindbergh returned to St. Louis and explained the deal to his backers. A 15,000 dollar check was cut and Lindbergh returned to New York and to Charles Levine' office. Lindbergh put the $15,000 dollar check on Levine's desk. When Levine informed Lindbergh that contingent to the sale of the plane his company reserved the right to select the crew that flies the plane, Lindbergh was taken back by this. Levine had said no such thing when they had met previously. Lindbergh responded by saying there must be a misunderstanding; the point about piloting the plane was non-negotiable. Levine countered that his company could not release the plane without being able to select the crew. However, Levine told CAL that he would be agreeable to letting the St. Louis group paint the name of their city on the fuselage. Needless to say, Lindbergh was angry. He picked up the check he had put on Levine's desk and as he did Levine told Lindbergh he was making a mistake. The Bellanca was the only airplane built that is capable of flying between New York and Paris. It was Levine who made the mistake of a lifetime. Lindbergh, check in hand, walked out of Levine's office and into world history! The sources I have read have CAL staying at the Garden City Hotel the night before the flight. He had lunch earlier in the day at the home of Colonel Theodore Roosevelt Jr. In the evening he went to Coney Island Amusement Park with Harry Bruno but then he returned to the hotel for the night.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 13, 2015 20:44:10 GMT -5
Good sleuthing Amy!
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Post by hurtelable on May 13, 2015 21:34:30 GMT -5
Have never heard of Charles Levine before. What was his company and what was their usual line of business?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 7:29:08 GMT -5
Thanks, Jack! There are a number of good books and internet sites that make all this information available. A. Scott Berg's biography book "Lindbergh" is one of the best for information about Lindbergh's life.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 7:30:29 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on May 14, 2015 9:27:20 GMT -5
To amy35:
Much thanks for the interesting article on Charles Levine.
Here's something to ponder. Lindbergh was willing to trust the safety and reliability of Levine's aircraft (which was always an issue in those early days of aviation), yet it seems as if Lindbergh had no part at all in its engineering and design. Yet, according to the film, Lindbergh was very active in consulting on the design and manufacture of "The Spirit of St. Louis" at the Ryan plant in San Diego, which would be expected since his life would depend on it.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on May 17, 2015 18:10:21 GMT -5
Hi Everyone, I don't know who was a friend of CAL or not...Just wanted to ask if anyone knew if Dr. P.Van Ingen (Dr. to all) knew Isidor Fisch (a fur trader)? What a duo they would have made in the bottom basement of the children's TB sanatorium, preparing for the switch.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 11:03:40 GMT -5
Here is a possible link between Van Ingen & Fisch as drawn from my earlier posts dealing with James Warburg. Van Ingen was the Lindbergh Baby's pediatrician who serviced the Jeckyll Island bankers set that set up the Fed Reserve which Paul Warburg was the chairman of. Van Ingen lived across the street from James Warburg (my kidnapper) who also had small children & who I surmise also used Van Ingen as his pediatrician. James Warburg's bank financed 25% of American fur industry, his first published book was on that subject. Fisch could have connected to Van Ingen through James Warburg.
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dave
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Post by dave on May 27, 2015 13:17:54 GMT -5
You gotta be kidding me! A Jeckyll Island connection to the Lindbergh Case. Simple time, simple crime. My friend David Irving once said: "Someone writes a book, uses one book that's plagiarism. Two books that's research. Three books that's in depth research." You can totally over think this case Alan.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on May 27, 2015 15:47:23 GMT -5
Van Ingen was the Lindbergh Baby's pediatrician who serviced the Jeckyll Island bankers set that set up the Fed Reserve which Paul Warburg was the chairman of. James Warburg's bank financed 25% of American fur industry, his first published book was on that subject. Fisch could have connected to Van Ingen through James Warburg. There is no doubt that all the "Bankers" hung out together, and Jeckyll Island was one of those hotspots. I think you hit it head on. Anyone who was anyone tried to get VanIngen as their peditrician! The Federal Reserve is also part of the kidnapping equation.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on May 27, 2015 15:55:12 GMT -5
You gotta be kidding me! A Jeckyll Island connection to the Lindbergh Case. Simple time, simple crime. My friend David Irving once said: "Someone writes a book, uses one book that's plagiarism. Two books that's research. Three books that's in depth research." You can totally over think this case Alan. Hi Dave, All the wealthy people in the early 30's hung out at exclusive places like Jeckyll Island. Don't doubt any connection when it comes to the vacation spots of the Rich. They went everywhere together.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 27, 2015 22:29:53 GMT -5
Alan:
Was handwriting analysis ever done - ransom notes vs. James Warburg?
If James was a writer there could be lots of his known writing somewhere.
JMO I can't see people like the Warburgs hanging around with a guy like Fisch.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 11:50:09 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing up the "hang arounds". In the mid 1920's F. Scott Fitzgerald was spending time in Great Neck at Ring Lardner's estate. Next door there were wild parties going on every night. It was journalist Herbert Bayard Swope's place. Swope was Best Man at Mob boss Arnold Rothstein's wedding & introduced James Warburg to Rothstein's Friday night poker games with mob elements. Fitzgerald's Great Gatsby is the gentile front man for Meyer Wolfstein (Arnold Rothstein)in the novel made clear in the recent Gatsby film. Here, a year or two before Lindy's flight you have literary royalty & journalistic royalty - Swope won the 1st Pulitzer Prize, in bed (& loving it!)with despicable gangsters. Swope was Einstein's 1st translator. In the 1920's to 1932 gangsters supplied the rich & famous with their booze & their nightlife - they were all "hanging around" together.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on May 28, 2015 15:26:11 GMT -5
Good one. It would be tough to find three more interesting people in all of history than Ring, Scott and Zelda.
Throw in Earnest and you've got quite a crew.
Fitzgerald and Hemingway used to go bar hopping and Scott would go up to a big guy sitting at the bar and tell him,"Mr. Hemingway sitting over there at that table said you were a fairy. Is that true?"
Zelda, in spite of being in looney bins much of her life seemed pretty normal until she got into the wine.
Lots of stories.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jun 3, 2015 9:57:30 GMT -5
I always think of the players in this kidnapping crime. So Many. Finacial Institutions and Federal Reserve Pool Supporters wanted CAL to go down. Could it be so simple that Frank Hague's (NJ Mayor) wife was related to my family? (As I think they were) That the Hugue Family helped out with the situation through the Priest? (What a perfect time to get the toddler back into the original family where he started from!) That the baby was switched out...for the sake of doing the right thing? Who would want to kill that toddler? It was complicated and so twisted that even the people who were involved, didn't know who was involved! As for VanIngen knowing Fisch.. I'm sure he did. That doesn't mean that they hung out together.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 4, 2015 11:53:46 GMT -5
To All:
Seems like some here are trying to say the Dr. Van Ingen and Isidor Fisch somehow knew each other without any credible evidence to support that notion. Other than the two of them residing on Manhattan Island (where a couple of million people lived at the time), nothing else I know of connects them.
It's also been speculated here that big banking interests had something against CAL Sr. Hard to see that.
CAL Sr. did have a personal quarrel with Franklin D. Roosevelt later, but FDR was not the president at the time of the purported kidnapping.
Please, folks, idle speculation without solid facts to support it is no way to solve mysteries.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jun 5, 2015 14:38:09 GMT -5
To All: Please, folks, idle speculation without solid facts to support it is no way to solve mysteries. I am not an avid reader, a researcher or an investigative person. I am speaking from my gut, heart and soul. Things will fall into place one day, hopefully within my lifetime. The players in this crime were all linked together, in one way or another. If I had the correct resources, financial backing, and the cooperation of the authorities from the State of New Jersey and Vermont, I would be able to solve this kidnapping crime within hours. Any suggestions?
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Post by Michael on Jun 6, 2015 7:57:07 GMT -5
I am not an avid reader, a researcher or an investigative person. I am speaking from my gut, heart and soul. Things will fall into place one day, hopefully within my lifetime. The players in this crime were all linked together, in one way or another. If I had the correct resources, financial backing, and the cooperation of the authorities from the State of New Jersey and Vermont, I would be able to solve this kidnapping crime within hours. Any suggestions? I think one of the biggest mistakes someone looking for a solution can make is to get emotional about anything connected to this case. Saying things to get people emotional is a tool which can lead to other information, however, if one finds themselves "holding onto" something based solely on emotion I think it could lead to a huge waste of time. Read and Research then the investigative part will follow. If you read and research enough those skills will develop over time. Those interested in this case don't need to be a Cop, a Lawyer, or in any way connected to Law Enforcement to understand what's written in the source material. And like any other skill, over time, it develops with experience. The more you read, the more you research, the more you will learn. The authorities from the NJSP are completely helpful. The Archives are free and open to the public, and it doesn't end there. Mark Falzini is among the most helpful people on the planet. Aside from his knowledge, he will absolutely go out of his way to assist those interested in the case. He, as well as those Troopers working at the Museum & Recruiting Area in West Trenton are excellent Ambassadors for the State. Over the years I've met many great people there and I can honestly say each and every day was a great experience. I highly recommend anyone interested to take advantage of this situation. The Democrats in NJ are already chomping at the bit to take away the one last benefit the middle class have here and that's low gas prices. Once that happens, there's no doubt the situation at the Archives will change. As far as Vermont goes I wouldn't know, but with the internet I'm sure you could find a point of contact then go from there. Most people employed in these positions are enthusiastic about history and welcome the opportunity to help.
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Aimee
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Post by Aimee on Jun 6, 2015 13:22:39 GMT -5
Thanks Michael, I agree. I need the correct DNA to be compared, the records to be released, the Lindbergh Family to cooperate and the authorities (including the court system) to assist. The information I am looking for is not sitting out for all to see and research. Everyone seems interested... but the answer is always no.
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Post by C on Jun 14, 2015 17:49:31 GMT -5
Aimee, What if you were to get in touch with Lindbergh's (Germany children). Maybe they will help you with a DNA sample Its worth a try.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jun 15, 2015 14:13:31 GMT -5
In the 1980's I spent hours with Harold Olson, Ken Kerwin and five others who were told or thought they were Lindy Jr.. (One was a women from Europe. Those were fun times.) Harold became a good friend and visited me several time here in Arizona. But, He and all the others were wasting their time. Junior was found near the Mount Rose Highway in 1932. Dead at the scene, Period, end of story.
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Post by C on Jun 15, 2015 16:56:37 GMT -5
Dave, I have a question for you. Was it a waste of time for the German Lindbergh's to follow threw with DNA. To find out if they were Lindbergh's. No it was not a waste of time.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jun 15, 2015 17:13:51 GMT -5
"C"
I'm not talking about what you call the "German Lindbergh's! I am referring to the sring of crazy nuts that have turned up in the last 40 odd years claiming that they or family members had to be Junior. They are a waste of time! They don't need a DNA work up.
Am I clear now "C"?
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Post by Michael on Jun 16, 2015 6:54:46 GMT -5
I am referring to the sring of crazy nuts that have turned up in the last 40 odd years claiming that they or family members had to be Junior. They are a waste of time! They don't need a DNA work up. While I am totally convinced the corpse found was CJr., I don't hold the same general opinion concerning the group. I think they have to be looked at case by case. Many of these guys were told almost since birth they might be, or were - the Lindbergh child. So imagine that constantly being drilled into your head? It's kind of like what this new book is all about. Everyone who heard anything was hearing about the kidnapping. Here's a couple of examples: J. R.: Police were receiving numerous letters from the public asking them to investigate him. He was in Coopersburg, PA. The story was that he was given to a German couple by a mechanic from the S. S. Wright Airplane Carrier who never returned for him. This German couple could not get a birth certificate for him and everyone believed he was the Lindbergh child. R. D.: According to my sources, his Mother left Ohio for New Jersey with her baby only days before the kidnapping. When she came back they all said she had a different one. When her family pressed her on this she hinted it wasn't the same child, and on her deathbed admitted he wasn't. Supposedly his own Father was also claiming he wasn't the same child. In 1936 his prints were compared by the NJSP and they did not match, however, the family never accepted it. R.D never wanted to be the child and didn't want the claim hanging over his head. In 2000 James Starrs did DNA testing for him against a niece and they conclusively proved he was related. R.D. was relieved. R. A.: His whole life his Father told him he wasn't his son. His father had a direct link to this case having brought Hauptmann to live with him. DNA testing shows he was his Mother's son with a 96% based upon a cousin from that side. His Father however, was not his Father. So the man had a nexus for his belief only it turned out not to be true.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jun 16, 2015 9:06:34 GMT -5
Really! Michael I didn't think you bought into that crap as it relates to A.R. (I tried to put a yellow happy face here in remembrance Bob! But couldn't get it to work.)
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Post by trojanusc on Jun 16, 2015 12:30:37 GMT -5
On a somewhat related note:
If the state ever does allow the envelopes to be DNA tested, Do you know if there are any potential DNA samples from Hauptmann that the letters could even be tested against? I'm assuming his son has never provided anything.
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dave
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Post by dave on Jun 16, 2015 12:58:37 GMT -5
Troj, As far as Hauptmann, I have visited and talked with Manfred Hauptmann many times. Most of the time the conversations are about, believe it or not, my family, and how about them Yankees? If I'm there two hours I get if I'm lucky 8 minutes on his Mom and Dad. Lot of resentment towards the Lindbergh Crime in general, and yes even his Dad. New Jersey or anyone else will never get any help from Fred Hauptmann.
DNA, forget it. The only thing it would do is confirm what I already know and believe - The baby died March 1st, 1932 in his crib at the hand of Richard Hauptmann.
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