kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 2, 2012 9:03:30 GMT -5
I thought I would start this thread to get some facts and opinions on the character and personality of Hauptmann. It seems so much has been written and posted about every figure in this case and yet the main character often seems to be a mystery.
I will relate what I know about him from the perspective of someone who has studied his work and in the course of that found other details of his life. First, I can't help but to say that Hauptmann is often slighted either directly or indirectly in regard to his abilities. The ladder is a perfect example of this as it has been much maligned. I would like to set this straight. The ladder, though flawed, is actually quite ingenious. After 10 years of study I am still amazed at some of it's secrets. Yes it is not an example of fine craftsmen ship, but then why should it be? In many ways this unique creation is years ahead of it's design. It would be 40 years before a ladder with a similar design became available for commercial use. I would stress the difficulty in coming up with something as unique as the kidnap ladder. I would equally stress the difficulty in putting it together. This is not something an average person could do without many attempts. If you doubt this, try for yourself. Hauptmann is also a gifted draftsman. Perhaps, had circumstances been different he may even have been an artist. I say this because he has a great command of perspective and scale. I have often been amazed at his ability to create freehand drawings that are incredibly accurate. The little isometric drawing of the ransom money packet is but one example.
He should also be commended for his determination. How many could have gone through what he did in the Great War and survived? Especially as a machine gunner, one of the most sought after targets. How many would have the resolve to make 3 illegal transatlantic crossings? That's not something to take lightly. Then to arrive in a strange land with nothing to his name and make it.
He has to be appreciated for his, for lack of a better word, guts. How many people would go out and buy a brand new car in the height of the depression with no steady income and then go on a cross country tour? Think about what this entails.
Finally, one has to appreciate his resourcefulness. Time and time again he somehow makes it out of a tight spot. Even the things he makes are usually a product of his ability to take advantage of what is available.
In short, Richard Hauptmann is not a man to take lightly. I don't say this to affirm his guilt. I say it because in considering this crime there often seems to be a marginalization of him by both those who believe him guilty and those who don't.
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Post by johndoe on Apr 2, 2012 11:32:43 GMT -5
I'm sure.
No leading in that post at all.
I wonder what Trenchard would have thought of it?
I thought you were supposed to be unbiased.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 2, 2012 11:58:02 GMT -5
Well, as an in expert in logic,give us your assessment of Mr Hauptmann and why. What specifically do you disagree with?
Btw, I never claimed to be completely unbiased on this subject. How on earth could I be? I have been close to this guy for years in a way most never can be. Now Michael has studied him from a different angle, so I am sure he has his own opinion of Hauptmann.
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Post by johndoe on Apr 2, 2012 14:12:54 GMT -5
I've seen the claim on your behalf several times.
My current assessment of Mr Hauptmann is that he possibly got involved on the periphery of something bigger than him.
Your post is written to lead us to believe he was a clever scheming mastermind.
I think you have too much emotionally invested in this to offer an objective opinion.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 2, 2012 16:01:49 GMT -5
Based on what do you make this assessment?
I think you should read more carefully. That certainly is not my position. I wrote this because there seems to be a tendency among some, you included, to marginalize the man. Personally, I think that's a form of snobbery. This is a guy who is far more capable than he is often portrayed. That doesn't make him a "mastermind". It does make him more than capable of being involved in a major crime.
That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. It means absolutely nothing to me. There are those LKC researchers who I respect and their opinions of me are a little different from yours and more importantly matter to me. In fact, they have changed my thinking on the subject many times. Those that start out with an answer and then attempt to prove it despite clear evidence to the contrary( sound familiar?) are the ones who have no objectivity.
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Post by lightningjew on Apr 2, 2012 16:34:52 GMT -5
Excellent post, kevkon. And I agree; Hauptmann is all too often marginalized by both camps--those who believe in his guilt and innocence. My personal opinion on it is that he almost certainly had to be involved, but it's very remote (for me) that he could've pulled off everything alone. While extremely clever, resourceful, and gutsy, I don't think that means he was some sort of "mastermind." But exactly how far do you think his involvement extended? And I was also curious by what you meant when you said you've been close to him for years, in a way most can never be.
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Post by Michael on Apr 2, 2012 17:10:26 GMT -5
I think people can be smart in one area but negligent in others. I'll give you one of my "famous" examples..... I had an Electrician over to my old house some years ago to look over my breaker-box after a flood. He saw the chandelier and asked who wired it. I told him I did. He couldn't stop telling me how impressed he was concerning the job I did with the old wiring etc. etc. Then he walked into the kitchen and almost had a heart-attack once he saw how I wired my dryer. So much so he demanded I let him fix it "free of charge" because of how (he said) "dangerous" it was. And so, am I smart or stupid? Anyway, according to my way of thinking - Hauptmann screws up once he starts to launder ransom. That wasn't his thing in my opinion and I believe someone else was the "main-man" when it came to this task. I've always said that once Hauptmann starts in on it then its fairly quick work for the Police to track him down. In any event, I think Hauptmann's personality did change if you study him. I tried to give a little bit of information that isn't normally seen by adding it to his Wiki Page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruno_HauptmannHe had three brothers and a sister. At age 11, he joined the Boy Scouts (Pfadfinderbund).[2] Hauptmann attended public school (Realschule), but quit at the age of 14. He then worked during the day while attending trade school (Gewerbeschule) at night, studying carpentry for the first year, then switching to machine building (Maschinenschlosser) for the next two years.[3]
In 1917, Hauptmann's father died. The same year, Hauptmann learned his brother Herman had been killed fighting in France in World War I. Not long after that, he was informed that his brother Max was now dead too, having fallen in Russia. Shortly thereafter, Hauptmann was conscripted and assigned to the artillery.
Upon receiving his orders, he was sent to Bautzen, but was transferred to the 103rd Infantry Replacement Regiment upon his arrival. In 1918, Hauptmann was assigned to the 12th Machine Gun Company at Königsbrück.[2] Hauptmann would claim that he was deployed to Western France with the 177th Regiment of Machine Gunners in either August or September 1918 then fought in the Battle of Saint-Mihiel.[4] Hauptmann would also say he was gassed in either September or October 1918. He also claimed that while his position was being shelled, he was hit in the helmet with a piece of metal. According to him, this knocked him out for "hours" and he was left for dead. When he came to, he crawled back to safety and was back to the "machine guns" that evening.[5] After the war, Hauptmann and a friend robbed two women wheeling baby carriages they were using to transport food on the road between Wiesa and Nebelschutz. The friend wielded Hauptmann's army pistol during the commission of this crime.[6] You can lookup the sources for my information at the bottom of that page.
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Post by Michael on Apr 2, 2012 17:15:08 GMT -5
For the record, I have repeatedly said that Kevin is a true neutral when it comes to the wood and ladder evidence. I completely stand by it. If something came along concerning the ladder that proved Hauptmann innocent I believe there are some personalities who would attempt to hide it or argue against it. By the same token if something came along that proved Hauptmann did this by himself there too would be people willing to try to argue it away just out of loyalty to Hauptmann.
Kevin would accept and embrace it either way and be facinated by whatever it was. We could, for example, trust his professional evaluation of it without worrying. I have never known him to care about any of the theories - only the wood, the ladder, craftsmanship, and facts surrounding this evidence.
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Post by rmc1971 on Apr 2, 2012 20:36:17 GMT -5
I think one other thing is that the misconception made by the Prosecution that he was a loner is still out there. In fact, I think this misconception still coulds the thoughts of most of us when looking at the crime in it's entirety.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2012 7:41:49 GMT -5
Very good observations. I definitely agree with Mairi, Hauptmann is no loner. I think that is also important from a criminal profile perspective. But what do you all think about the kind of dual life Hauptmann led? I mean the legitimate vs the illegitimate.
I think he had to be fairly extensively involved. I really don't see how anyone could be only a little involved in a crime of this nature.
John Douglas the famous FBI Mind hunter says " to understand the artist, study his work". Well that's exactly what I have been doing. I not only study his work, I re-create it. And not just the ladder. So I am very close to him in a certain way that most don't get the chance to be.
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Post by bookrefuge on Apr 3, 2012 10:25:06 GMT -5
Closer to him than Anna? She was "very close to him in a certain way that most don't get the chance to be" too. Are you closer to him than Lloyd Fisher, who sat with him day after day in courtroom and jail cell, and believed him innocent? What, have you been talking to him in séances run by Mary Ceritta’s granddaughter and he finally ‘fessed up? Lemmie see:
GHOSTLY VOICE WITH CHAINS DRAGGING: “OOOH, Kevkon. You finally gottit me—I thought I haf every-vun fooled. But Rail 16, oooh, Rail 16, I knew some smart guy vould finally come along and smack me oud vid Rail 16!"
Sorry, Kevkon, I’m just having some fun with the discussion board. SERIOUSLY, I know what you mean by "close"—you’ve been trying to study the man and learn exactly where he was at. And that’s the way to investigate. Your work is very good.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2012 11:01:42 GMT -5
BR, you make a good point and it is one I am painfully aware of. That's why I so often reply upon researchers such as Michael who know BRH in a different way. It's also why I look to members of this board to give their own opinions. Still, I am very close to BRH and anyone who takes this case seriously should try to be as well.
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Post by lightningjew on Apr 3, 2012 13:56:53 GMT -5
John Douglas is actually a pretty brilliant guy, but, unfortunately, he was the one who made me realize that the FBI Summary states Whateley gave tours of the house to passersby. Read something he wrote on the case in which Douglas treats that piece of information as a real there-you-have-it fait accompli--anyone could've gotten in the house to familiarize themselves with the layout beforehand, etc.--but now it turns out that information appears to be incorrect. Removing that piece of faulty info from the equation, I wonder what he would say about the case now...? And by "involved," I mean the difference between Hauptmann just building a ladder and handling ransom money for example, or, say, his being in the baby's nursery on the night of the kidnapping.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2012 17:12:43 GMT -5
Yes, John Douglas is brilliant, so is his co-author Mark Olshaker who I just met with. I highly recommend their books to anyone interested in this case. I really doubt the Whately tour story would have much if any impact on the views expressed by John Douglas as there are a multitude of ways in which an outsider could have located the Nursey. I know we have covered some on this board. The fact that Highfields had just been completed also opens the way for more possibilities.
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Post by rmc1971 on Apr 3, 2012 17:25:14 GMT -5
Yes, John Douglas is brilliant, so is his co-author Mark Olshaker who I just met with. I highly recommend their books to anyone interested in this case. I really doubt the Whately tour story would have much if any impact on the views expressed by John Douglas as there are a multitude of ways in which an outsider could have located the Nursey. I know we have covered some on this board. The fact that Highfields had just been completed also opens the way for more possibilities. Good point. I have wondered if there was every any potential link between whoever constructed the house at Highfields and any of Hauptmann's employers.
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Post by lightningjew on Apr 3, 2012 18:50:43 GMT -5
I've often wondered that too. I can't imagine that the construction company (or companies) and their employees who built Highfields weren't fully investigated though. Does anyone know if anything interesting was ever turned up? Also, kevkon, when did you meet with Mark Olshaker?
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Post by wolf2 on Apr 3, 2012 19:25:05 GMT -5
i have a fbi report of all companys that were involved in the building of the house. mike might have it to
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Post by Michael on Apr 4, 2012 20:16:29 GMT -5
I have (3) full files of the NJSP Investigations into them. I've never been able to connect any up with Hauptmann in any way but the last time I tried was some odd years ago. It might be time to brush them off and try again......
I don't believe I have an FBI report concerning the Builders.
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Post by wolf2 on Apr 4, 2012 20:48:33 GMT -5
i will dig it out,and if youwant i will send it to you
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 5, 2012 7:00:10 GMT -5
Police and FBI lists and interviews would never be completely comprehensive because any building project has many undocumented visitors. Most will be there for business such as deliverymen, others may be there for potential business, such as job seekers and product salesmen. Still others will come by to see a friend who is working there or just out of curiosity. Then as far as the plans go, there's no telling how many people got to see them. Just the bidding sets could be seen by hundreds. Double that for sub-contractors and suppliers who get prints for their own use. This is a pretty big project for a famous person in a time of economic depression so I would expect all of the factors I listed to be higher than usual.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 2, 2012 19:35:29 GMT -5
BRH seemed extra bitter about Condon. All sorts of interpretations of this, I'm sure. He begged for truth serum or lie detector and that Condon do the same.Did he think he could beat the test and that Condon couldn't? He refused his last meal and said "Give it to Condon". The first time Condon came to the jail BRH seemed glad to have a visitor.
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Post by sonofjack on Aug 3, 2012 10:59:01 GMT -5
Police and FBI lists and interviews would never be completely comprehensive because any building project has many undocumented visitors. Most will be there for business such as deliverymen, others may be there for potential business, such as job seekers and product salesmen. Still others will come by to see a friend who is working there or just out of curiosity. Then as far as the plans go, there's no telling how many people got to see them. Just the bidding sets could be seen by hundreds. Double that for sub-contractors and suppliers who get prints for their own use. This is a pretty big project for a famous person in a time of economic depression so I would expect all of the factors I listed to be higher than usual. As a contracts negotiator for large construction projects, your description here is accurate. If people are wondering where the connection is between BRH and Lindy, the construction angle is a no brainer as one of the first places to look. And you will have to look very hard. Nowadays, there are four five or six layers of subcontractors that work under the GC's "umbrella." We need to look at all subs down to the lowest level sub and see if there might be a connection. BRH did work construction in NJ too. However, this will be like finding a needle in a haystack.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 3, 2012 11:34:01 GMT -5
Yes, but unfortunately it doesn't seem likely that anyone will look. I do have some suggestions. One might be National Lumber, they did millwork and might have been contacted. Another might be Kurt Tolksdorf's grandfather who did custom millwork and furniture. He helped Hauptmann with the garage. Then there is BRH's friend, Kloppenberg. I have always thought that the tight knit German community holds the key. Many of these Germans worked in construction and many had ties to New Jersey. Unfortunately, I think many of these connections are invisible and so finding them now would be impossible. I know from my own experience in construction, that I come to know about projects from many sources and usually there would be no trace.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 8, 2012 19:52:09 GMT -5
Good subject Kevkon!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 9, 2012 7:33:18 GMT -5
So what are your thoughts?
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Post by xjd on Aug 9, 2012 9:20:25 GMT -5
great post, kevkon. and everyone's contribution is informative as well. i agree hauptmann is mostly viewed either black/white. this case is complicated because the people at it's core, CAL & BRH were also complicated (i guess we all are).
i am not sure if anyone who has not experienced the same sort of hardships BRH grew up with i.e. war, deaths, hunger, poverty, etc. could envision what a person might do to survive under those circumstances. also, i think the xenophobia of those times (and maybe these times) leads some to view him and his work as exclusively crude, sloppy, lazy, sneaky etc. those flaws are always attributed to any immigrant class of people.
i think it's also very possible & not so strange Anna did not know anything about the kidnapping/extortion. would most wives in that era question where his money came from? husbands had their sphere, wives had their's. not as much overlap as in today's American society.
as to BRH never confessing or implicating others; i think it's entirely in his personality not to implicate the others. i agree with those that think the kidnapping was carried out by some from the community of Germans BRH knew located in/around the Bronx, and obviously he had something to do with the ladder & spending the money & possibly the notes. that community were as much as family to him by all accounts and i can't seem him "singing" to police about accomplices. a strange sort of honor code some might think, but again until one has walked in his shoes, who are we to judge?
this is not to say he did not deserve to be held accountable for his part of the crime, but i do think it crappy how they connived to get him tried in a state that would execute him for sure.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 9, 2012 18:06:44 GMT -5
"i think it's also very possible & not so strange Anna did not know anything about the kidnapping/extortion. would most wives in that era question where his money came from? husbands had their sphere, wives had their's. not as much overlap as in today's American society. " (xjd) I think you are so right on this. I try to put myself back in that day and time, but it isn't always that easy. I can appreciate the other points you made, as well.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 9, 2012 19:29:40 GMT -5
That really brings things back to square one because the really big question as has been investigated ad nausea is could he have done it alone? My inclination is just too many coincidences and that he couldn't. Some things can be ruled out. Organized crime certainly would have killed him off if he knew too much which he probably did. The intent of the crime had to have been to kill the child because evidently no means of carrying him away is apparent, and not only that the body was left where it could easily be found - funny it wasn't found earlier.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 10, 2012 7:33:24 GMT -5
I agree Jack, Hauptmann could have been "knocked off" at any time and no one would be the wiser. It's one of the major reasons that I don't see any organized gang involvement. Dead men tell no tales and Hauptmann would be a liability you just don't need.
Marie and xjd, I can believe Anna was not aware of the kidnapping. However, I have a real hard time when it comes to her having no clue regarding their enrichment.
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Post by jdanniel on Aug 10, 2012 13:53:30 GMT -5
As with the JFK case, I don't feel organized crime was involved, either. It would just draw way, way too much heat.
(If you ever get a chance to see the Fritz Lang movie from the early 1930's called M, you'd see the criminals were even more interested in catching the child killer than the police. And keep in mind the comment Anne Lindbergh said about the mobsters she dealt with...she said they were more sincere in their condolences than just about anyone else.)
But that doesn't mean criminal elements weren't involved. Con artists are criminals, after all...and quite a few turn up in the LKC.
Jd
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