ziki
Trooper
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Post by ziki on Feb 14, 2019 19:14:49 GMT -5
I think this question is not new on this board, but I can’t remember the answer... Is there available some report about questioning the owner or staff at the mentioned store about Betty’s visit?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 7:57:01 GMT -5
Also that the car used was apparently Ellerson's personal car and not one of the Morrow family cars as I had assumed since it was a member of staff driving... That is awesome that you were able to view the Hoage Collection! Your assumption that a Morrow family car was used to take Betty Gow to Hopewell is actually correct. In Henry Ellerson's March 11, 1932 statement to Lieut. John J. Sweeney of the Newark Police Department, Ellerson says the following: "I had a bowl of soup with Betty and she and I started for Hopewell, N.J., at about 12:10 in a Chevrolet Roadster owned by the Morrow Family."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 8:02:44 GMT -5
I think this question is not new on this board, but I can’t remember the answer... Is there available some report about questioning the owner or staff at the mentioned store about Betty’s visit? That is a great question! I have wondered if this claimed stop-off actually occurred and if the police ever checked this part of Betty Gow's and Henry Ellerson's statements. I think this is a question for Michael. If such a check did happen and was followed up with a written report, Michael would know about it.
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Post by scathma on Feb 15, 2019 16:52:54 GMT -5
Also that the car used was apparently Ellerson's personal car and not one of the Morrow family cars as I had assumed since it was a member of staff driving... That is awesome that you were able to view the Hoage Collection! Your assumption that a Morrow family car was used to take Betty Gow to Hopewell is actually correct. In Henry Ellerson's March 11, 1932 statement to Lieut. John J. Sweeney of the Newark Police Department, Ellerson says the following: "I had a bowl of soup with Betty and she and I started for Hopewell, N.J., at about 12:10 in a Chevrolet Roadster owned by the Morrow Family."Once I heard "roadster" I assumed it wasn't a Morrow car and therefore must have been his. All this time I was picturing the Morrow fleet containing nothing but expensive sedans Is this the same car that was later destroyed by fire? I seem to recall something about a roadster blocking the drive at Hopewell... was that before or after Betty was dropped off? Betty doesn't look like she'd have much of an appetite yet noon bowl of soup at Morrow's, then 2pm lunch upon arrival at Highfields? Maybe she's a nervous eater
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 20:37:50 GMT -5
Once I heard "roadster" I assumed it wasn't a Morrow car and therefore must have been his. All this time I was picturing the Morrow fleet containing nothing but expensive sedans Me too! I guess Mr. Morrow had a roadster as part of the family cars for the children's use, Elisabeth, Dwight and maybe even Anne. I am now curious and will have to find out just how many cars the Morrows had and what models they were! I assume that you are referring to the car Ellerson was driving that burned up. The car involved in that incident was Ellerson's personal car. This is what the FBI summary report says about this incident on page 135: "It is stated that in May 1932, Ellerson wrecked his green Ford Sedan on a hill at Fort Lee, NJ and the same was completely burned."
(underlining is mine) What I have seen speculated about Ellerson's car is that he used it to move Charlie's corpse to the Mount Rose Hill and then destroyed his car to eliminate that evidence. Is this true?? I don't know. I do believe that someone put that corpse there, however. It was after he had left Betty Gow at the Lindbergh house. From Charles Henry Ellerson's March 11, 1932 statement: "On my way out of the Lindbergh lane I noticed that a man had his car parked in the road; the car was facing toward Hopewell. It was a green Ford coupe; there was only one man in the car and although I blew my horn he did not move and I had to drive my car around his to get by."LOL! Just preparing for a long, rough night, I guess.
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Post by Michael on Feb 16, 2019 10:45:31 GMT -5
Last month I went to UCLA and viewed the Hoage collection. Awesome! FYI: Anything written after October 1939 should be unique to that collection. That's where my documentation ends from everything I've copied at the NJSP Archives. There's also a possibility that material within that time-frame is unique as well because its hard to know what Ho-age may not have shared or "kept" from this time in NY. The Governor gave him quite a bit of access and obviously some original material as well. I hope you can get back one day and continue your research there.
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Post by Michael on Feb 16, 2019 10:55:24 GMT -5
That is a great question! I have wondered if this claimed stop-off actually occurred and if the police ever checked this part of Betty Gow's and Henry Ellerson's statements. I think this is a question for Michael. If such a check did happen and was followed up with a written report, Michael would know about it. As soon as I saw Ziki's question I believed I had a report to show where it had been followed up. I know I read about it somewhere so I went to my Gow, Ellerson, and Red files (which is an enormous amount of material) but didn't find any source to back it up. When something like that happens I start questioning my memory, however, I am usually right. So now I have to try to remember where it might be. It could be a book although very few books are my primary sources for anything and if it was a book I would have followed up the source by locating it at the Archives. IDK ... I am going to have to think on this one about where it might be. If anyone else knows please just in!
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Post by scathma on Feb 16, 2019 21:15:14 GMT -5
Last month I went to UCLA and viewed the Hoage collection. Awesome! FYI: Anything written after October 1939 should be unique to that collection. That's where my documentation ends from everything I've copied at the NJSP Archives. There's also a possibility that material within that time-frame is unique as well because its hard to know what Ho-age may not have shared or "kept" from this time in NY. The Governor gave him quite a bit of access and obviously some original material as well. I hope you can get back one day and continue your research there. Thanks Amy35 for providing the details on all the vehicles! Michael, I hope to get back to both the NJSP archives and UCLA. I go to CA at least once a year and plan to get back to UCLA on my next visit now that I know the process and what their collection is comprised of. I want to share some details of my visit but just haven't had the time yet. The UCLA Ho-age collection is quite small compared to NJSP's but as you know, a single folder of papers can be time-consuming to peruse and their restrictions make note taking slow as well. The strangest thing in their collection is a pristine tissue-wrapped copy of Scaduto's "Scapegoat"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 10:08:20 GMT -5
As soon as I saw Ziki's question I believed I had a report to show where it had been followed up. I know I read about it somewhere so I went to my Gow, Ellerson, and Red files (which is an enormous amount of material) but didn't find any source to back it up. Thanks, Michael. I appreciate you taking the time to look for a back up report on Betty's drugstore stop. I am currently of the belief there was such a stop. I will check through some of my books on this case and see if this comes up in one of those.
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ziki
Trooper
Posts: 44
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Post by ziki on Feb 17, 2019 10:44:07 GMT -5
Thank you, Michael and Amy. I also believe there was such a stop and I’m looking forward to know, thank to you, some details about it.
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Post by Michael on Feb 17, 2019 12:52:00 GMT -5
Thank you, Michael and Amy. I also believe there was such a stop and I’m looking forward to know, thank to you, some details about it. This is just a part of my collection as it existed back in 2011. It has grown a lot since then. It's part of the reason why it can be so hard for me to find a certain fact because if it isn't somewhere I think it "should" be then it could be anywhere.
So far I haven't found anything. I have a collection in mind I am going to get to today.
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Post by Michael on Feb 17, 2019 12:55:09 GMT -5
Michael, I hope to get back to both the NJSP archives and UCLA. I go to CA at least once a year and plan to get back to UCLA on my next visit now that I know the process and what their collection is comprised of. I want to share some details of my visit but just haven't had the time yet. The UCLA Ho-age collection is quite small compared to NJSP's but as you know, a single folder of papers can be time-consuming to peruse and their restrictions make note taking slow as well. The strangest thing in their collection is a pristine tissue-wrapped copy of Scaduto's "Scapegoat" Yes thank you for sharing and I look forward to hearing more once you get the time. I will never go to LA so you are going to be my eyes and ears when it comes to this collection!
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Post by Michael on Feb 18, 2019 10:35:19 GMT -5
Okay. So I am going to tell a long story but don't tune me out! There's going to be a valuable lesson in here somewhere (I think). Here is what kicked it all off: "I left Englewood at half past ten with the Morrow chauffeur in a small Chevrolet roadster car. We didn't make any stops, went straight here and arrived here by two oclock" Later on statement PG.14 she states "we stopped in a drug store." "I bought something for the baby's cold that Mrs. Lindbergh told me to get" I was surprised that she contradicts herself in the same statement about whether a stop was made! Also that the car used was apparently Ellerson's personal car and not one of the Morrow family cars as I had assumed since it was a member of staff driving... In Ellerson's April 12th Statement there's this exchange: Q. During your trip to the Lindbergh estate at Hopewell with Betty Gow did you make any stops? A. Yes, we stopped at a drug store in Englewood, Betty went in there and came out with some candy. This stop was made at the direction of Betty Gow.
Q. Do you know whether or not Betty Gow made a telephone call while she was in the drug store? A. No, I do not.
Q. How long was she in the drug store? A. About three minutes. We do see that Ellerson backed her up about the stop but differs as to what she purchased. But Scathma's point should not be lost either. Also, Ziki is right expecting there was an investigation into it. The problem is that sometimes the documents don't follow the expected pattern. If we don't find one then is it safe to assume it did not occur? No. I'd say without it all we can say is that we do not know. Did a follow-up occur? I say "yes" and here's why.... Early in the investigation police became aware of a an incident involving a Drug Store in Pennington in which Louis Schildkret worked. A women attempted to buy ether on March 1st " Tuesday night." This was always one of those incidents that many talked about as having a possible connection to this case. It also brought about speculation that this women may have been either Betty Gow or Violet Sharp outside of the Law Enforcement circles. Are you still with me? In 1936 a woman by the name of Edna Cochran contacted the Newark Police. She had recently moved to Newark from Hopewell and claimed that a friend of hers had been to that very drug store on the same day of March 1st. She claimed that Mrs. Steeber overhead from others in that store that the woman in question was Betty Gow. (What actually occurred was that her friend heard it from Dr. Richards while at the Pennington A&P). Police obviously had no idea what she was talking about and if true saw the value in what she was saying. We know this because they didn't "dismiss" her. However, they didn't refer it to the NJSP either. Instead they brought Lt. John J. Sweeny into the investigation and he quickly squashed the matter. As we all know Sweeney was involved in the early stages of this investigation because he was one of the members of the Newark PD that had been loaned to Gov. Moore. Here is what he said: In reference to the Lindbergh nurse, Betty Gow, I can say that she left Englewood on March 1, 1932, in one of the Morrow cars, driven by the Morrow chauffeur, some time around noon. They made a stop to buy some candy in Englewood and arrived in Hopewell about 2:00P.M. She did not leave the house that day. The only servant of the Lindbergh family that went to a drug store was Olly Whateley, and he was sent some medicine on Sunday and on Monday before the kidnapping. I have a faint recollection of the nurse-chloroform incident, and it was checked and rechecked and nothing came out of it that would tend to link it in any way with the Lindbergh case. In closing I will say that there is nothing that warrants further investigation along these lines.
This tells me that Sweeney may have been the guy to look into the drug store stop by Gow. If not, he certainly was aware of it to the point he had vivid recollection about it in 1936. I would expect that if Alpine didn't look into it then Newark or Jersey City probably would have. This might explain "why" I cannot find an actual report but of course that doesn't mean one never existed. There's also a chance one was written and I missed it or it has become lost over the years. I still think there might be mention of this in Schwarzkopf's Press Releases but there are over 2-1/2 years of them to go through. Maybe a newspaper report or even Walsh's articles might be something to look at too. So one can see the limitless potential when attempting to locate a source for something specific like this.
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Post by scathma on Feb 18, 2019 12:29:58 GMT -5
For me, the inconsistencies in the statements of those individuals present at Hopewell on March 1st point to a false narrative of what actually went on that day and the inability of those involved to stick to the “official” fictional version of events, especially with each passing day. While Ellerson is able to back up Gow’s version by April 12th, it is Gow’s contradiction of her own comments on whether a stop en route occurred in a statement taken within 48 hours of the event that should be scrutinized closely. In the version where she claimed the stop was for medicine at the behest of AML, when would Gow have been instructed to make such a stop? How is she confusing her apparent spontaneous desire for candy with the non-existent direction from her employer to pick up medicine for the child she is employed to care for?
Nowhere in AML’s statements does she ever mention directing Gow to pick up medicine, so why would Gow say that was the purpose of such a stop, only to later change the item to candy?
Gow originally was directed to travel by train, which only later was changed to being chauffeur-driven so any instructions to pick up medicine could only have come after the travel mode was changed, yet there is no evidence that such instructions were ever made by AML to Gow.
While you might ascribe minor errors in details after a significant amount of time has passed to failings of memory, statements made early on in the investigation and willingly volunteered should have been more heavily weighed as accurate and not subject to such distortions from the passage of time.
I’m curious why Morell & Brex (and I believe there was 3rd investigator on that report) didn’t pursue that discrepancy at the time or that future investigators didn’t cross-reference the subsequent statements taken from Gow and AML to the earlier statements. Perhaps they were hamstrung since staff “wouldn’t be touched” thanks to CAL.
Look how fluid the timeline for March 1st is, from the arrival of Gow, the pebble throwing incident, the phone calls to Highfields from CAL and Red, sewing the nightshirt and CALs arrival home… they are rife with contradictions or omissions as to what happened and when. Why can’t all the participants agree on what actually happened that day?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 18:34:14 GMT -5
It could be that Gow could have gone in and purchased medicine and when she came out she told Ellerson she bought candy, not wanting to say what she actually purchased. It is troublesome that Anne never mentions in her statements that she told Betty to get something from a drug store. Anne was never asked about this either. You would think the police would want to verify with Anne that she did ask Betty to make such a purchase.
Betty Gow, in her March 3, 1932 statement on page 8 does say to Deputy Chief Brex the following:
Q - Did Mrs. Lindbergh know you came with the chauffeur? A - Yes, I phoned her and told her that one of the chauffeurs would bring me down; she said that was fine.
There is the possibility that Anne told Betty at this time to stop for medicine on the way down.
I totally agree that the earlier statements should carry more weight. Statements are also dependent on the questions being asked. Anne should have been asked if she requested Betty Gow to stop for medicine. Unfortunately that wasn't done.
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Post by Michael on Feb 19, 2019 9:47:09 GMT -5
I wanted to post this map which shows the various NJSP Stations at this time. I wasn't saying Troopers would "have" to have come from Alpine to investigate this because that's not true. This is just my opinion concerning the likelihood based on the timing of the event. imgur.com/a/P8CPGVaObviously not to scale but I've found it helpful over the years.
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