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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 27, 2017 8:43:32 GMT -5
those handwriting experts wernt going to say Hauptman didn't write the notes anyway. they would have got killed. its so obvious that he did. fisher was right
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Post by Michael on Mar 27, 2017 17:58:34 GMT -5
those handwriting experts wernt going to say Hauptman didn't write the notes anyway. they would have got killed. its so obvious that he did. fisher was right He was completely wrong Steve. They both wanted to testify but Reilly decided not to call them. Since JF doesn't footnote his source for this, I will give you what I believe it was.... Wilentz bragged to the Press that only one Expert for the Defense "dared" to testify and that the others "quit." Now if someone is writing a book supporting the Lone-Wolf position then it makes sense to read this then stop short of looking into it further. But again, what Wilentz said was not true. In answering Amy's question, I found a letter Reilly wrote to Farr explaining that since she was a Graphologist, he wouldn't have been able to qualify her which was why she wasn't called. According to Lloyd Fisher, Theilen was very young, had never testified in court, "didn't know English from Yiddish," and predicted he would have been eaten alive on the stand. Make of that what you will, but this was written after Reilly was fired so remember his position was to make Reilly look bad and pointing to the Handwriting Experts in this way was one method in which he did. Anyway, NONE of them quit because they concluded Hauptmann wrote the notes. Now, does that mean he did not? Well that's up to the individual Researcher to decide, but I think it's important to know what the actual truth was about this issue first.
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 28, 2017 8:37:14 GMT -5
they would have got killed but I guess for money they would have gave it a try. I think fisher was right. its so obvious he wrote the notes
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 28, 2017 8:45:57 GMT -5
well if foster said fisch wrote the notes he must have been told to say that because the other experts didn't believe that. again foster would have got killed on the stand.
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 28, 2017 8:49:33 GMT -5
amy what is mikes second book going to talk about? he said something about hauptmans closet hes going to my world now I was in the house and killed a few myths
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 28, 2017 8:52:01 GMT -5
yes Hauptman lied to his coworkers about making all this money in the stockmarket. its clear in a document I have with a former coworker the ny police interviewed
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Mar 28, 2017 14:42:09 GMT -5
Hauptmann tried to change the size and slant of his handwriting during his requested writings. Fisher gives plenty of sources who witnessed that, among them Wallace who stated that Hauptmann told a friend that if the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby never told anyone about it, how would anybody know?
Hauptmann had a drawing of a ladder similar to the one found at the crime site, yet he stated that he'd never built or used a ladder. Why have a picture, design of one in his notes?
I guess I've never believed that Hauptmann was so stupid about money that he would, as he testified to, dump thousands fo his dollars into worthless furs supposedly obtained by Fisch.
Nobody testified for Hauptmann handwritingwise. That should speak for itself without needing backup.
It has always seemed kind of odd that the NJSP museum comes up with these incredible finds - table and chisel - so long after the issues have been closed. Anybody else wonder about that?
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 28, 2017 17:05:02 GMT -5
Hauptmann tried to change the size and slant of his handwriting during his requested writings. Fisher gives plenty of sources who witnessed that, among them Wallace who stated that Hauptmann told a friend that if the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby never told anyone about it, how would anybody know? Hauptmann had a drawing of a ladder similar to the one found at the crime site, yet he stated that he'd never built or used a ladder. Why have a picture, design of one in his notes? I guess I've never believed that Hauptmann was so stupid about money that he would, as he testified to, dump thousands fo his dollars into worthless furs supposedly obtained by Fisch. Nobody testified for Hauptmann handwritingwise. That should speak for itself without needing backup. It has always seemed kind of odd that the NJSP museum comes up with these incredible finds - table and chisel - so long after the issues have been closed. Anybody else wonder about that? (1) Who could have witnessed Hauptmann doing the requested writings other than police? How would they know if Hauptmann was trying to change the size and slant of his writing? To say that would mean that they were already familiar with his usual writing and they had some general expertise in forensic document examination. Obviously, they didn't have such expertise or they wouldn't have deferred to Osborne and son. (2) The ladder found at the crime site was extremely odd: three sections intended to be connected by dowel rods, 19 inches between rungs (compared to the usual twelve inches), unusual placement of the rungs within the side rails. Can't say that it was similar to the ladder in Hauptmann's drawing, which contained no specifications. (3) There was at least one defense witness who did testify regarding the handwriting, John M. Trendley. See Lloyd Garner's "The Case That Never Dies."
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Post by Joe on Mar 29, 2017 9:55:29 GMT -5
I believe Hauptmann's attempt to alter his handwriting style, as seen across the span of the individually written pages, would have been obvious to anyone witnessing the event. I have no difficulty seeing what they saw and reported.
The ladder was all business and designed to provide enough strength to climb while maintaining lightness and compact-ability for transporting. Hauptmann's notebook drawing illustrates the concept of recessing the rungs of the top two sections so they could be nested together in the most efficient way with the bottom section. It's not so bad that he had it in his book, but he effectively perjured himself by claiming a visiting child had drawn it. (Really?)
Trendley's defense presentation could just as easily have been used by the prosecution to demonstrate clearly that Hauptmann wrote all of the notes. It was totally ineffective and I can't imagine how the other defense experts (who didn't or wouldn't testify) could have topped Trendley.
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Post by jack7 on Mar 29, 2017 13:28:16 GMT -5
Y're right Hurtelable and Joe. It was police officers including Schwartzkopf who witnessed the Changes BRH made to his request writings as he wrote them. But the changes were in size and slant, and it didn't take a handwriting expert to notice them. The officers wondered why an innocent man would attempt to alter his handwriting.
The fact that Hauptmann would even draw a ladder at all was the incriminating part. He claimed he never built or used one. Of course he used one in Germany to get into the mayor's window and steal his watch!
Trendley believed that Fisch had written the ransom notes, so the scenario would have remained the same as if Hauptmann had written them. Trendley testified at about 400 trials. In one of them he testified under oath that a signature was authentic, and then after lunch he stated that it was a forgery - same trial, same signature. Regarding the ransom writings, Hauptmann even said to Anna that they looked like his own writing.
There was evidence against Hauptmann at every level of the crime and so far nothing has come down regarding anybody else save Hauptmann's postmortem implication against Fisch. The "death-bed" confession of Ollie is really nonsense. Ollie could have accused anybody with what (none) evidence he had. If there's ever more implicating anyone, it's hoped there's some evidence accompanying it or it's just more babbling by Scaduto and Kennedy characters trying to get into the limelight of which there isn't much left. You'll notice they all write books that don't say much - and nothing new.
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 30, 2017 9:35:35 GMT -5
No way! IF Fisch had written the ransom notes, Wilentz's "Lone Wolf" argument re Hauptmann is totally blown out of the water and the case is changed immensely. Fisch becomes a plausible candidate for Cemetery John or the lookout seen near the cemeteries, and the strange man who entered Breckenridge's office shortly after CAL Jr.'s disappearance. Plus, the Hauptmann story that Fisch left the box loaded with ransom loot with him for safe-keeping when Fisch went to Germany becomes more credible.
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Post by Joe on Mar 30, 2017 12:42:36 GMT -5
With Fisch as ransom note writer, the implications would have been huge.. but his handwriting wasn't even close. I'm not aware of Trendley actually implicating Fisch as ransom note writer and I believe he only acknowledged that he had looked at the handwriting of Isidor Fisch in direct examination from Reilly.
Fisch is definitely a character of interest in this case. I believe any potential participation on his part, could well have been swept under the rug by investigators, once they arrived at the "Hauptmann did it all" consensus.
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Post by Wayne on Mar 30, 2017 13:25:06 GMT -5
Hi Jack,
Question. You wrote, "Of course he used one in Germany to get into the mayor's window and steal his watch!"
Waller wrote on page 260, "...(Hauptmann)climbed a ladder to a second-story window in the home of the burgomaster, Herr Schierach, forced it open and slipped inside."
Since Waller did not use footnotes, can you please tell me what he backed this up with? Thanks!
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 30, 2017 14:16:43 GMT -5
Permit me to interject here, Wayne.
When Hauptmann was arrested in New York in Sept. 1934, US law enforcement (not sure whether it was NYPD, NJSP, or FBI) sent to Germany, requesting his criminal record from there. From what came back from Germany, one of the cases against him involved his breaking into the Burgermeister's (approximate equivalent to American mayor) home via a ladder.
I believe that Hauptmann himself admitted that the record of that incident was basically accurate.
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Post by Wayne on Mar 30, 2017 14:42:14 GMT -5
Hurtelable,
Thanks for the info! Good to know. Have you personally read the German reports? And can you point me to where Hauptmann himself admitted that he used a ladder in Germany? Much appreciated!
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Post by jack7 on Mar 30, 2017 14:46:01 GMT -5
As far as Trendly goes, I didn't say I believed it, just what he thought. He determined that Fisch wrote the ransom notes, but Trendley's only example of Fisch's writing was Isidor's signature, of which he used the letter "e" as his determiner. Sounds kinda weak so I didn't go into it, just that Fisch's (now dead and unable to be examined) writing the notes would have led in the same direction as if Hauptmann had written them. Remember, the only reason Fisch is known at all is that Hauptmann brought him up. Criminally, Fisch is completely clean.
Wayne: Waller's European edition is supposedly footnoted. With that in mind, I ordered the European edition specifically from Amazon UK (I have an account with them) and they sent me the American edition - from London yet! So I gave it up thinking that it wasn't terribly important. Michael may have the European version, but I've never even seen one.
Hauptmann's ladder use in Germany is mentioned unfootnoted in Gardner, and Fischer mentioned it and states that his arrest records are on file in the Lindbergh Case Archives. Hauptmann did confirm to NYPD that their German criminal records about him were basically correct.
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Post by jack7 on Mar 30, 2017 14:56:55 GMT -5
One more thing:
Michael, if you do have the Euro Waller, see if he footnotes where he got the "fact" that BRH's landlady's daughter said that Richard had paid his rent prior to when he claimed to have met Fisch in gold bills. I think it will be NY Times but that's always been a hanging "fact."
TY in advance!
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Post by Wayne on Mar 30, 2017 15:04:52 GMT -5
Thanks Jack!
I think you guys will find this interesting.
I have copies of BRH's German arrest records. I have also read BRH's autobiography, BRH's police interrogations, BRH's extradition hearing transcript, and BRH's trial testimony.
The ladder is not mentioned in any of them. Not one.
Here is the actual German translation of the break-in at the Mayor's home:
“The criminals climbed in an open window in the home of the Mayor and forced open a writing desk with a crow bar and took out 2 to 300 marks in each also a silver pocket watch with a gold chain. They divided the money but Hauptmann kept the watch. The victim was Mayor Schierach.”
That's it. No ladder!
And I'm not sure it was a second-story job.
Unless anyone can show us a statement or report to refute this, BRH did not use a ladder in Germany.
It's just one more false myth that has trickled down over the years and been accepted as fact.
As they say on Mythbusters. Busted.
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 30, 2017 17:41:59 GMT -5
Thanks Jack! I think you guys will find this interesting. I have copies of BRH's German arrest records. I have also read BRH's autobiography, BRH's police interrogations, BRH's extradition hearing transcript, and BRH's trial testimony. The ladder is not mentioned in any of them. Not one. Here is the actual German translation of the break-in at the Mayor's home: “The criminals climbed in an open window in the home of the Mayor and forced open a writing desk with a crow bar and took out 2 to 300 marks in each also a silver pocket watch with a gold chain. They divided the money but Hauptmann kept the watch. The victim was Mayor Schierach.” That's it. No ladder! And I'm not sure it was a second-story job. Unless anyone can show us a statement or report to refute this, BRH did not use a ladder in Germany. It's just one more false myth that has trickled down over the years and been accepted as fact. As they say on Mythbusters. Busted. Possible great myth-busting there. I would get someone who can translate German into English competently to translate the original German record for you. (Remember that the record was sent over from Germany by the Nazi regime, so you would have to rule out chicanery in producing the record and possibly in translating it.) It may also be possible, if that Burgermeister's house is still standing or from old photos of it, to see if a ladder might have been useful in entering it. It's possible that law enforcement and others here may have wrongly inserted a ladder into the crime in Germany because their suspect had carpentry skills and for no other reason.
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Post by jack7 on Mar 30, 2017 21:46:49 GMT -5
Good job, Wayne!
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Post by Wayne on Mar 31, 2017 6:10:14 GMT -5
Thanks much, Jack!
But I want everyone to know that this was a joint find. Using Michael's methodology, I compared all the statements I have regarding the German ladder and crunched the numbers with Mark Falzini and museum ace researcher Margaret and we were pretty much stunned to learn that nowhere in the statements does it say that BRH used a ladder.
IF anyone comes across a document to refute this, please let me know!
One more thing. Know how Waller, Milton, and others quote the "The Lone Eagle Builds A Nest" Sunday Mirror newspaper article to rationalize how BRH would know the layout of Highfields because the article contained directions to the house, photos, and even floor plans?
I spent 8 hours at the New York Public Library going through the Sunday Mirror and it's not there.
FYI, Waller made reference of the article on page 8 simply saying "A Nest For The Lone Eagle" contains pictures of Highfields (not footnote).
Milton's 1993 book (page 210)built on this to read: "Although Charles and Anne had purchased the acreage through a nominee, the press had quickly discovered the location, and an aerial photo of the house, then still under construction, was featured on the front page of the Sunday Mirror, headlined THE LONE EAGLE BUILDS A NEST" (not footnote).
Finally, the article totally morphed in 2007 with The Immortalists (p51) to read: "A photograph of the estate — and the floor plans of the house — had been published in the New York Sunday Mirror under the headline THE LONE EAGLE BUILDS A NEST."
Amazingly, the footnote on this references Milton's book!
Again, it seems like "The Lone Eagle Builds A Nest" to explain how BRH knew so much about Highfields can be regulated to Lindbergh mythology.
However, if I'm wrong and someone has this article, please let me know!
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Post by wolfman666 on Mar 31, 2017 9:15:56 GMT -5
wayne you have to read the hearing document when he was caught coming on a ship illegaly. in the transcripts he mentions going up a ladder and robbing the mayors house
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Post by Wayne on Mar 31, 2017 12:02:09 GMT -5
Hey Wolfman,
Nice find! Are you talking about BRH's extradition hearing transcript? Could you please send me the exact quote? I don't see it and in BRH's autobiography he doesn't even bring up robbing the mayor. He admits to robbing the two women, but not the mayor, unless I missed that page, too. Thanks!
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Post by Michael on Mar 31, 2017 16:27:50 GMT -5
One more thing: Michael, if you do have the Euro Waller, see if he footnotes where he got the "fact" that BRH's landlady's daughter said that Richard had paid his rent prior to when he claimed to have met Fisch in gold bills. I think it will be NY Times but that's always been a hanging "fact." TY in advance! Jack, I don't have this edition. In fact, I didn't know anything about it until I read your post. I remembered seeing at least (3) different copies of Waller at the NJSP Archives so I contacted Mark. He told me there is a German Edition but that doesn't have an index. It could be some kind of special edition which means it's going to be hard to find.
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Post by Michael on Mar 31, 2017 16:50:10 GMT -5
IF anyone comes across a document to refute this, please let me know! I am racking my brain trying to think of a source you haven't checked but can't come up with anything. wayne you have to read the hearing document when he was caught coming on a ship illegaly. in the transcripts he mentions going up a ladder and robbing the mayors house Attachment Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 17:38:24 GMT -5
Hey Wolfman, Nice find! Are you talking about BRH's extradition hearing transcript? Could you please send me the exact quote? I don't see it and in BRH's autobiography he doesn't even bring up robbing the mayor. He admits to robbing the two women, but not the mayor, unless I missed that page, too. Thanks! In Hauptmann's autobiography, he doesn't say specifically he burglarized the mayor's house but he does admit to break-ins that yielded what he took from the mayor's house. Here is the quote from his autobiography, I Am Innocent, written by Hauptmann, edited by Dan Heinrich Tolzman. From page 57: "I no longer remember where we committed our first burglary. There were three occasions altogether. Two of them occurred in the neighboring villages and one in Kamenz. We were familiar with all these places and knew where to go. We carried them all out in the same manner, by breaking in through a window. They all happened during a short time. We divided the money and the other things we found. If I remember rightly, we got two watches and some war bond coupons. With these we could no nothing. Each of us got around two or three hundred Marks out of all three robberies."
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Post by Wayne on Mar 31, 2017 19:20:57 GMT -5
Hi Michael and Amy,
Thanks for the supporting documents! Life should always be this easy.
Wolf,
Do you see what we're talking about now? Unless you have it, there is no report stating that BRH had a prior arrest using a ladder to rob a house. And no prior for a second-story job, either (the mayor's house might have been two-stories, it's just not in any of the reports).
Waller seems to be the first to mention this ladder break-in in 1961. From there, it seems to have become a misnomer that BRH was a ladder/2-story man.
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Post by jack7 on Apr 1, 2017 5:28:10 GMT -5
Thanks for checking Michael. Probably just another Lindy Legend.
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Post by Joe on Apr 1, 2017 6:18:48 GMT -5
Interesting discussion about whether or not a ladder was actually used during the robbery of the Herr Shierach and definitely worth pursuing to find out where Waller got his information. What I find most interesting here is Hauptmann's admission that "they," referring to him and his accomplice Fritz Petzold, were familiar with the places they robbed and "knew where to go." From the Hoax Site, here are some items posted by researcher Sue Campbell, that provided details of the new Lindbergh house in Hopewell, "almost ready for occupancy" on December 3, 1931. disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=141545;article=51500;title=The%20Lindbergh%20Kidnapping%20Hoax%20ForumPlanned for a year already?
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Post by Michael on Apr 1, 2017 8:56:25 GMT -5
Thanks for checking Michael. Probably just another Lindy Legend. Well I hope it's true and someday one of us stumbles onto it. It would be a huge help wouldn't it? With all due respect to both you and Sue this information isn't new and I don't see what value it has to assist people wanting to plan a kidnapping. Look at those and other similar articles then jump in your car and kidnap someone? No. They needed specific information and, as proven by their actions that night, they had it. It did not come from these type of newspaper reports. As far as being the impetus for the crime, that is, seeing an article like to this get the ball rolling, then perhaps so. But isn't that kinda like someone seeing a horror movie as what motivates them to kill someone? I am not saying it is impossible, but it feels more like an excuse.
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