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Post by wolf2 on Jan 18, 2011 19:19:44 GMT -5
my brother just informed me that on the tv program pawn stars, on this coming mondays episode, somebody walks in the pawn shop and tries to sell lindbergh kidnapping memorbilia. its on the history channel
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Post by hunley2 on Jan 24, 2011 13:49:21 GMT -5
i have got it set to record...thanks!
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Post by hunley2 on Jan 25, 2011 8:33:11 GMT -5
I watched this and found myself pausing frames trying to read some of the evidence they quick flashed across the screen. Amazing! A whole collection of old newspapers and thoughts of the original owner Leon Hoage, who had willed it to this guy's grandmother. I saw the sleeper, Dr. Denton, was 28" long. And Hoage had written a memoir about his conscious knocking...he believed Hauptman was accidentally set up by a friend he allowed to stay with him in the states, the man left the money in a tin can (supposedly from Hoage's view to thank him for his help), the money got him executed. Some of the collection was photographs of evidence, the papers and memoirs(written by Hoage) were probably real. This collection, again, points to Bruno Richard Hauptmann being framed. This guy didn't sell...but I bet he will get many calls from people who are serious about owning such a historical collection of the Lindbergh Kidnapping Case!! Maybe that was the reason behind this PUBLICITY of the collection ... even he says it could be well worth more, "I'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE."
Thanks again for bringing the show to my attention.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 25, 2011 16:45:49 GMT -5
Wonder what UCLA thinks of this?
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Post by Michael on Jan 25, 2011 18:51:41 GMT -5
I am a little behind on the posts but I wanted to make a few comments.....
Many of Ho-age's materials are at the NJSP Archives in West Trenton. Most of the rest are at UCLA (stored off site).
I can tell you from looking at this lot its authentic. I am not sure who bought the nails from Rauch. It's either Hoffman, or the State of New Jersey. Ho-age had integrity so Hoffman probably told him to keep those. Those post cards are legit too. These should be at the NJSP Archives with the rest, but again, if Hoffman told Ho-age to keep them then there's an argument for why he held onto them.
From looking at the reports which they quickly showed.... One is a copy of the report which examines the sleeping suit and other of the toddler's clothes. This is at the NJSP Archives. The other report I saw, something like "......the door of unconscious" is a report I have never seen before.
I believe much of what is at the NJSP Archives is from when Ho-age had his office in NYC. Once he moved to California, that's where I think UCLA got his later material.
A couple of mistakes mentioned in the show: It wasn't a rung that broke. The guy with the hat corrected that one. But he said something about 13K being found on Hauptmann. It was more then that. The Gentleman who brought the collection in said Ho-age was hired by Lindbergh. That is totally incorrect. Ho-age volunteered his services to Gov. Hoffmann. That same Gentleman said Ho-age suspected Hauptmann's friend who "lived with him." I think Rick is right and this guy is referring to Fisch, however, he's getting some of his facts wrong.
It seems to me he is mixing in things he was told and either was told wrong or mis-remembering them. All of the Ho-age material I have suggests an "Inside Job." I don't remember him accusing Fisch but, as I said, I only have his earlier stuff. However, the only time he did examine the evidence is when he was back East. So I have always believed I have what's important as coming from Ho-age.
But I've been wrong before.
All in all, he should have taken the $1500. It's priceless to me, however, guys like me don't have any money. Those who do (and are interested) don't pay much for this type of material. We all saw this when Pope's material was on Ebay and no one bought it. I believed that was worth every penny he was asking, yet, no one came close to an offer he was looking for.
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Post by wolf2 on Jan 25, 2011 19:31:20 GMT -5
i agree mike, he should have taken the money, i didnt see anything earth shattering. you can buy old newspapers at differnt websites pertaining to the case. i should have asked the guy for nails when i was in hauptmanns attic
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 25, 2011 20:18:28 GMT -5
Definately should have taken the money and ran. Just like the EBayers that think what they have is worth twice as much as it is. Mike, have you seen the UCLA collection?
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Post by Michael on Jan 26, 2011 16:13:00 GMT -5
It's hard to believe but I am in my 11th year of research. Sometime ago I got in touch with a really nice lady at UCLA about this collection. She told me it was "off site" and to hire a Student to find & make copies of what I wanted. She then gave me the prices to include copies.
I let the idea go for a period of time then actually tried to do it later. But that time someone else was my point of contact. This time I was informed it wasn't open to public research.
It might be now - I'm not sure. But I've reasoned to myself that I have what's good. While in NY he was allowed to examine anything he asked Hoffman to see. He worked with all the big names like Dr. Hudson while doing so.
He shared everything with Hoffman. Once he pulled up stakes and went to California he was giving talks expressing his opinions and backing the Governor for granting the reprieve. So I can't imagine anything "new" coming out that he believed which wasn't in the Governor's possession already.
And what the Governor had is at the NJSP Archives. Like I said, this could be an error in thinking on my part - I've made mistakes before.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Jan 26, 2011 17:23:49 GMT -5
Der Meißel??
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Post by Michael on Jan 26, 2011 17:58:14 GMT -5
I have the chain of custody forms so I think we could probably determine who had it last. I don't think it was Hoffman. Hopefully, whoever kept it as a souvenir told whoever has it now.
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Post by rick35 on Jan 26, 2011 22:39:05 GMT -5
I have the chain of custody forms so I think we could probably determine who had it last. I don't think it was Hoffman. Hopefully, whoever kept it as a souvenir told whoever has it now. It shouldnt be too hard to find a guy named Leon X who got the material from his Grandma...likely Ho-ages wife or mother/sister? The guy was about 60-65? The primary reason he should have grabbed the $1500 bucks is he had nothing new, or at least showed no cards that indicated he had some evidence not seen and considered by numerous other Inspector Cluesoes already? Pointing at Isador Fisch is only good for lining your parrots cage...nearly everyone defaults to Isedor in one way or another?
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Post by Michael on Jan 27, 2011 13:46:20 GMT -5
Honestly, without reading what Ho-age wrote in this material I really don't know if there's anything new. Hauptmann's sister was out there and she had an Attorney working angles too....
It's possible there's something new he adds to what I've already seen but I'd be lying if I said I really thought there was. And even so, I still don't think it would fetch $1500 on Ebay. I don't think it would fetch $500 although it might.
Way back when, there was also a guy selling Fawcett's material, piece by piece, with a reserve set for $25 per document. No bids, and believe me, I am very interested in that stuff.
But I am more interested in what it says. I'd pay for copies of it and have no "need" to own the originals.
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Post by rick3 on May 23, 2011 20:15:59 GMT -5
Tonitewas a replay of the Leon Hoage collection on Pawn Stars? I heard NEW LEON....saythat Det. Hoage left these papers with his Grandmother in 1940? What I didnt hear him say last time was that Hoage (no dash please) concluded that BRH was innocent and Isador Fisch was guilty? Can we confirm that opinion anywheres else? Did LH tell Gov Hoffman that? Why not? - one typed manuscript in the collection was entitled...._______** KNOCKS AT THE DOOR OF MY CONSCIOUSNESS by Leon Hoage.("searching for something or someone most uncanny")
** maybe Truth or Justice or God? (fill in the blank...)
- Did LH ever give another copy of this to anyone else?
- Included in the collection were square nails which came out the floorboards in BRH attic...maybe from Arch Loney?
- our current Leon claims there was enough evidence in this package to show BRH did not do it and "they executed an innocent man"/?
- It also appeared that LH has the reverse J, Baby Safe postcards....howd he make off with those? French Leave?
- Another document is titled....Chief Medical Examiners Office / Essex County, New Jersey/ Chemical and Toxicological (Newark)Laboratory/ Dr. Albert E.Edel/ Chemist and Toxicologist/ State of New Jerseys case against BRH....Case 7741?What happenedin Essex County? Did Dr. Edel ever testify?
- The real kidnapper, says New Leon,' was a friend of BRH who stayed at thier house....doesnt sound like Fisch there? More like Eric Schaefer or the cousin?
- other evidence looks like a letter dated April 1943 from an insurance company exonerates BRH? (+/-)
- So, did LH ever try to go public with this theory? maybe at UCLA? Does Leon Hoage have any credibilty?Why did he sit on his theory? Exactly how early did he get involved with LKC? See here: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/cem.html
- Apparently, LH was present for the interview of Hochmuth by Gov Hoffman on Dec. 15th 1937...a bit late doncha think?>
- Anyhow, here is the Leon Hoage Collection Weblink:
cdn.calisphere.org/data/13030/6c/kt4580136c/files/kt4580136c.pdf
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Post by Michael on May 24, 2011 18:53:54 GMT -5
Don't know. I don't have a copy so its not in any of the Hoffman Collection or NJSP Files.
No. Ho-age and Lewis were the one's who purchased Board #26 from Rauch. In fact, Ho-age was the one who built the protection for this board in order to preserve the saw cut. He felt this cut is what proved Hauptmann wasn't the one who sawed the floor. Kevin could probably explain this better then I can, but armed with the knowledge the Electricians were the one who cut it then that explains away the saw cut in my opinion. Anyway, he either got the nails during this purchase, from Gov. Hoffman, or Dr. Hudson. Ho-age was directly involved in evaluating this attic evidence which I don't think most people are aware.
Hoffman gave him much to look over and evaluate. It's possible he told him to keep them or just never got around to retrieving them. Later in the re-investigation Ho-age leaves NY for California.
I have this report. No, he didn't testify but I do believe he was issued a subpoena. He evaluated the child's clothing and later some of Hauptmann's material. There was really nothing for him to testify to.
Sounds like this guy was a victim of "whisper down the alley." But if we take him literally, then it was his upstairs neighbor Shussler. They were friends and Dick had no problem with him going into the garage whenever he wanted.
He gave talks all the time about this Crime being an Inside Job.
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Post by rick3 on May 25, 2011 2:21:03 GMT -5
Hi Michael...thanks for filling in some blanks on Leon Hoage... - Lots of folks, including Al Dunlap, quessed it was an inside job, but fewer said outright that BRH was framed and innocent?
- Its harder to imagine how some friend(?) or relative of BRH staying at thier house and leaving the ransom behind could be compatible with an "inside job"? I think that theory would be more closely linked to the 2 gang theory whereas the Extortion in the Bronx by Condons Harlem buddies is just that alone and totally unrelated to any putative kidnap?
- Maybe Eric Mueller, Anna's nephew-in-law, had more access to the attic or garage than we had previously noted? You've had your sights on him for some time...
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Post by Michael on May 25, 2011 16:56:24 GMT -5
I still think he got the story wrong. However, Mueller is someone I do think needs more attention payed to him.
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Post by johndoe on Apr 1, 2012 10:10:29 GMT -5
I would like to know how Board #27 can be square cut and Board #26 cut at an angle. The saw should have been square to Board #26 because the cut channel in Board #27 should have kept it square. Unless the cut in #26 was done after to sell the idea that Board #27 was cut there.
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Post by tan tan on Jun 14, 2013 13:53:52 GMT -5
the thing is if he didn't do it why he never deny it?
at the first if he know that the money is belong to his friend.. then if he know that he didn't do anything wrong why he have to hide the money in the garage?
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Post by Michael on Jun 14, 2013 18:41:02 GMT -5
the thing is if he didn't do it why he never deny it? at the first if he know that the money is belong to his friend.. then if he know that he didn't do anything wrong why he have to hide the money in the garage? Because simply possessing this amount of gold note certificates were illegal under the law.
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kdwv8
Trooper II
Posts: 95
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Post by kdwv8 on Jun 15, 2013 8:49:55 GMT -5
Is there any Hoage material available on-line that "we" can view or is it all at UCLA and the NJSP archives?
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Post by Michael on Jun 15, 2013 9:11:08 GMT -5
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Post by tan-tan on Jun 15, 2013 10:46:51 GMT -5
the thing is if he didn't do it why he never deny it? at the first if he know that the money is belong to his friend.. then if he know that he didn't do anything wrong why he have to hide the money in the garage? Because simply possessing this amount of gold note certificates were illegal under the law. what i am trying to say is. since Hauptmann admitted that the money is belong to his friend, it just proven that the investigator of Hauptmann was wrong for telling that the evidence was implanted by the police.
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Post by VAKen on Apr 10, 2014 10:15:15 GMT -5
For the record, "Bruno" Richard Hauptmann was not his real name. "Bruno" was a derogatory name given to him by the press because of his German accent and heritage.
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Post by Michael on Apr 10, 2014 18:55:58 GMT -5
For the record, "Bruno" Richard Hauptmann was not his real name. "Bruno" was a derogatory name given to him by the press because of his German accent and heritage. Not exactly. He never used the name "Bruno" and his friends all knew him as "Dick" or "Richard." However, here is a copy of his fingerprints from an arrest in Germany. Look closely at the first name (Vornnamen). This isn't coming from the press, and was a genuine document retrieved from Police Headquarters at Dresden Germany by Detective Arthur C. Johnson from Oberkriminal Inspektor Henschel on October 12, 1934:
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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2014 15:37:08 GMT -5
I shouldn't say "never." He seemed to accept this was his name after his arrest. As an example I am attaching the last page of his letter to Governor Hoffman written on March 31, 1936:
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Post by Michael on Apr 12, 2014 13:38:48 GMT -5
I hate to beat a dead horse but Hauptmann was christened " Bruno Richard Hauptmann." I also went to the Bautzen County Court Records from March 1919 and here is what they say (translated): Hauptmann, first name Bruno Richard, machinist, born November 26, 1899 in Kamenz at 64 Bautzener St., and lived there at the time of the crimes, and Petzold, first name Hermann Max Fritz, machinist, born November 30, 1900 in Kamenz.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 17:03:13 GMT -5
I know that Petzold was a friend of Hauptmann's before the war and would become his partner in crime in Germany after the war. I did not know Fritz's full name. How curious that Petzold's three first names are the same names as Hauptmann's brothers, Hermann, Max and Fritz.
Is it a fact that Petzold gave up Hauptmann as his partner in several of the crimes they committed together? I am not real clear on Hauptmann's German criminal record.
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Post by Michael on Apr 12, 2014 22:03:03 GMT -5
Is it a fact that Petzold gave up Hauptmann as he partner in several of the crimes they committed together? I am not real clear on Hauptmann's German criminal record. The Report that I have been referring to only says: Hauptmann and Petzold were arrested on March 26, 1919 in Kamenz and transported by means of a prison wagon to the jail in Bautzen on April 24, 1919 during which time Hauptmann escaped in Bischofswerda. On April 25, 1919 he surrendered himself to the Police in Kamenz and was taken back to jail in Bautzen on April 28, 1919.I think there was something in Liberty Magazine about these arrests as well. Whatever it was it isn't fresh in my mind so I'll have to try to remember where to look. Do you remember where you read Petzold gave up Hauptmann? I'd like to verify this because so much BS is out there, like for example, the women pushing baby carriages had no babies in them. They were using the carriages like wagons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 18:15:41 GMT -5
If I am remembering correctly, it was not a definite statement that Petzold did this. It was put forward as a possible reason that Hauptmann might have gone solo on the kidnapping instead of having a partner. I will try to find out where I read this. It was a while ago. Sorry.
I thought that Petzold and Hauptmann were ID by someone and that is how they were apprehended.
Didn't Detective Johnson speak with Petzold when he was in Germany checking out Fisch and Hauptmann?
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Post by Michael on Apr 13, 2014 20:23:54 GMT -5
If I am remembering correctly, it was not a definite statement that Petzold did this. It was put forward as a possible reason that Hauptmann might have gone solo on the kidnapping instead of having a partner. I will try to find out where I read this. It was a while ago. Sorry. Don't apologize! I feel your pain when it comes to remembering sources. I thought that Petzold and Hauptmann were ID by someone and that is how they were apprehended. Whipple wrote they were " easily tracked down." Didn't Detective Johnson speak with Petzold when he was in Germany checking out Fisch and Hauptmann? He tried to but couldn't find him. I have more on Petzold but I can't remember which file its in. Most likely one of Hauptmann's but I have at least 20 files on him - so that could take a while to find. There might also be something in one of Hauptmann's autobiographies, or Hoffman's Liberty series too.
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