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Post by hunley2 on Feb 1, 2011 13:11:43 GMT -5
There were Statements covering the period when the crime occurred. Here is Gow's (compliments of Ronelle's site) March 10th as an example: www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/gowstatement.htmlThere is also a Statement covering the corpse. One of the others covers both, because it is a trial preparation statement. This is the same example I used when i was asking about the time frame gap of when Betty left Elsie's room to go to the baby at 10:00 From the time Betty leaves Elsie to go to the baby, Elsie is getting a call from Ann, going to Ann's room, having a short conversation with Ann about hot lemon and Ann says she is going to take a bath.... Elsie leaves Ann and immediately runs into Betty, who, by both accounts of Betty and Elsie's statements she had aready been to the nursery...because that is where she was going when Elsie got call from Ann. Why would Betty lie about making two visits when she only made one according to her trial testimony?? IT'S SO SIMPLE Elsie knew Betty had already been to the nursery How? Betty left Elsie's room going to the baby Why did Betty make two trips in her early statements? Because Elsie knows she went to the nursery already, and was coming from that direction (because Elsie's statement says that Betty went "BACK" to the nursery). Why lie? Because Betty inquired about Mrs. L, but not if she had the baby. Because she was not upset during the confrontation. Why two trips? She knew Elsie would tell of their hall visit if questioned Because she did not expect to see Elsie and had to think fast Trial Testimony One TRIP Betty testifies that she went from Elsie to the nursery bathroom and turned on the heater and then went into the bedroom and turned on the heater, closed window, went to crib, discovered baby was gone. Wilentz specifically asks Betty if she went into the bedroom from the bathroom...her answer: "Yes" How long was Betty in the nursery after leaving Elsie? Long enough for Mrs. L to take a bath (long time to close window and plug in two heaters) How do we know Mrs. L had or had not taken her bath? Because she "was going to" when Elsie left her... Because Elsie had to help dress her appropriately before police arrive Two very different versions We know there was an accidental hallway confrontation between Betty and Elsie because both of them describe describe it in early statements. We also know Betty had two versions of how many times she went to the nursery. Why was the hallway confrontation between Betty and Elsie NOT addressed in the trial? Because it would not fit into the single trip version...because if there WAS ONLY ONE TRIP...BETTY COULD NOT HAVE SEEN ELSIE IN BETWEEN AND IF SHE DID...SHE WAS ALREADY AWARE THE BABY WAS GONE.
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 2,800
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Post by kevkon on Feb 2, 2011 8:40:26 GMT -5
Do you have the floor plans of Highfields?
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 2, 2011 9:03:20 GMT -5
No, But I know through the readings that Ann's room was connected by a passage and so was Betty's. So both rooms are close to each other. Elsie's room was quite a distance but both had to walk the same distance to get to Ann's room so the timing should not interfere with the result...and it does not take away from the fact that Betty's story changed from 2 to 1 visits.
Why else would she change her story?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 2, 2011 12:35:30 GMT -5
You really should get a scale copy of the floor plans of Highfields if you are looking closely at the movements of the household. It will make sense out of some of these issues. Michael or I can send you a copy or post them. as for changing stories, who knows? I'm sure Michael might not agree with me, but it's really quite common for people to change various elements of a story when recounting it over and over again. And it's not neccesarily done intentionally. It's one reason that it's SOP to seperate witnesses when taking statements. I would go so far as to say that if everyones statements never changed at all, it would be indictative of a conspiracy or rehearsed account.
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Post by Michael on Feb 2, 2011 14:37:23 GMT -5
According to Gow's trial prep statement to Peacock made on 1-1-35: She says she was having tea with Mrs. Whatley. The child was with Anne in her sitting room. Around 5:30PM the child ran into the kitchen and supposedly ran around table. Gow says she brought him up to his room. At about 5:55PM she leaves him in his room alone to go downstairs to get his supper then returns with it. Right after supper Anne arrived and they both got him ready for bed. After putting him to bed she went into the bathroom. Here she washed some of the baby's clothes. She was in there about a 1/2 an hour. At about 7:50PM she checked on the child and found him asleep. She then fastened his clothes to the mattress with safety pins. She then says she did not go downstairs right away because she was doing "something" in her room. Then at about 8PM she went downstairs to "our own" sitting room and had supper with Elsie. At about 8:30PM Lindy came home and Elsie left. After her dinner Whateley came and told her she had a phone call. After the call she went back to the sitting room, she read, and only the dog was with her. Elsie later joins her after giving Lindy his supper. They talked. Elsie suggested they go upstairs to her room. They went upstairs and Elsie showed Gow some dresses. Eventually Gow would look at her watch and see its 9:50PM. Gow got up and " went right along the top passage through the bathroom adjoining the baby's room." She put on the electric heater then went to get Anne who would usually accompany her to see the baby at 10PM. She runs into Elsie along the passage who is coming out of Anne's room and asks where she is. Elsie tells her she is taking a bath. She goes back through the bathroom, turns off the heater, then opened the door into the baby's room - crosses to the French window and closes it, then plugs in the electric heater to eliminate the chill. She stands there for a moment then goes to the crib. She hears nothing. The only light was coming from the hall. She realizes he isn't there. Now remember, this is years after the event, and it appears she is being coached so take these circumstances into consideration. Here is the floor plan courtesy of the NJSP Archives: Attachments:
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Post by Michael on Feb 2, 2011 15:20:59 GMT -5
I think it depends Kevin.
What we have here is a household full of routines. Yet, on this night, many things happen differently. And so I am inclined to think these differences would be remembered... I do expect a certain degree of variation excepting when someone says they looked at their watch. For example, when Lindy came home.... 8:20, 8:22, or 8:30. Since he wasn't supposed to be coming home Elsie might be the best source because its her job to fix him supper. However, each time being different coming from different people seems reasonable.
If someone says something different it could be due to the time elapsed since the event took place, certainly, but it also could be because they are lying but don't remember their original tale.
The best "control" to a story is to test it against someone else's version who was there. Then give it a "test" by asking yourself if the differences are "reasonable" or not. It's different based upon the individual grading it. Kevin may give more slack then me, I don't know, but its something that must be done in order to come to some sort of personal conclusion. The missing element here, and its huge, is not being able to read a person's body language. I am pretty good at telling if someone is lying to me or not so that aspect is lost forever.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 3, 2011 8:31:39 GMT -5
I don't know that I give more slack or not. What I try to do is keep in mind that there all sorts of personal, political, and other agendas which exist independently of the crime. Therefore there are a myriad of reasons for people to, let's say not be completely forthright in their answers. This has always been a major source of problems for detectives working on criminal investigations. And it often causes the investigation to go down the wrong path. And yes, you don't have the luxury of personal contact to use which makes this even harder. On top of all of this we are not getting first hand all of these accounts. So, I guess if I give some slack it's because there has to be an allowance for a bit of movement.
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 3, 2011 15:07:02 GMT -5
Let's look at the differences in Betty's statements without times and told only by Betty, with no one else's story adding confusion...this is just Betty. I put her statements in groups as she claims events happened that day, her own words, her own story, no one else interfering or causing confusion...
JUST BETTY
1. Left at 10:30 "EXACTLY" 2. We "didn't" make any stops, drove "straight there" arrived at 2 (very long trip for straight through 3 & 1/2 hours)
1. Betty notified to go to Hopewell at 11:00 (what happened to leaving EXACTLY 10:30? she's just notified at 11) 2. 11:45 leave for Hopewell. (again, exactly 10:30 is not 11:45) 3. Stopped at store to buy something (What happened to no stops and driving straight there?)
1. Arrive at 1:20 2. Arrive at 2:00 (40 minute gap)
1. Betty asks Ann to get scissors and thread 2. Betty leaves room to get scissors and thread 3. Betty gets scissors, ELSIE BRINGS THREAD LATER 4. Ann leaves room to get scissors and thread
1. Betty in nursery, Ann joins her through her bathroom 2. Betty in nursery, no one else mentioned 3. Betty and Ann go to nursery together, in nursery, Elsie comes later, Elsie in nursery, Ann is outside throwing pebbles at window (HUH?)
1. Betty and Elsie in nursery 2. Betty, Ann, and Elsie in nursery
1. Ann leaves...Betty puts light out, both doors closed tight, washes clothes in bathroom stays until 8 2. Ann leaves, Betty re-enters nursery, pins matress, turns out bath and bed light, goes to cellar, sitting room, eats 3. Betty finishes wash in bath, tells Ann baby asleep, goes to sitting room and eats (no cellar) 4. Goes downstairs, tells Ann of baby sleeping and pinning mattress, eats with Elsie (no cellar)
1. Bath door Bathroom heater, through bathroom door into bedroom, close window, plug heater, check baby, gone, goes to Ann through bathroom door, goes downstairs 2. Looks at watch, exclaims nearly 10:00, goes to baby. Enters bathroom, lights light, put on heater, goes to find Ann, meets Elsie, Elsie says she is bathing, Betty goes back to nursery, opens door, crossed room, closes window, feels for baby, goes to Ann through bathroom (where she was supposedly bathing) asks about baby, no answer, bewildered look....goes downstairs 3. Looks at watch, says "I must go to the baby" (NO TIME MENTIONED), GOES TO NURSERY(NOT BATHROOM), close window, plug heater, no baby...NOW SHE GOES TO HALLWAY and sees ANN (Not through bathroom to see Ann) asks about baby, Says "Maybe Colonel Lindbergh has him,," asks Ann where he is, ANN TELLS HER HE IS DOWNSTAIRS IN THE LIBRARY (no bewildered look??)
Granted, I can understand time frame discrepencies of 10-15 or even 30 minutes. There is more than that in Betty's statements. Again, this is her detailed story of events, without any other interference or time discrepency from others...she also quotes times, and constantly refers to her watch.
She uses definite words such as "EXACTLY 10:30" "Drove STRAIGHT there, NO STOPS" "It's NEARLY 10:00, I MUST GO..."
She recalls entering the nursery upon arrival (together with Ann, or alone and Ann comes later)
She can't seem to get it right about who is in the nursery mid-day (Ann, Ann and Elsie, Elsie in and Ann outside) She differs on where she finds Ann when she discovers the baby missing (bedroom or hall)
She differs which door she goes in to get to the nursery (bathroom or Hall)
She differs on responses of others (no answer, bewildered look...downstairs in the library)
Again, I can understand slight discrepencies...but this is more than that!! As I have mentioned earlier, when something traumatic happens, the events are etched into a memory forever...there may be slight word differences, small time discrepencies, but the story is the same...details remain the same....
There is something wrong here...and it's Betty...this is just her versions explained and a few things that jumped out at me... Ann has many variances as well...I simply wanted to point out that I do understand that truths are told with variances and minor differences in wording and timing...but the storystays the same
Does this seem minor and slight to you all? NOT TO ME....the story changes, not just the words and not just minor time discrepencies
Betty is involved, she is a PART of the INSIDE JOB...(IMO)
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 3, 2011 15:36:38 GMT -5
Ok. In my opinion I think I know who is lying and why. I'd rather not reveal this information because its something slated to be included in my book. As of right now, I can't figure out the need to lie about, or to cover it up. There must be a reason but I have yet to find out what it is. The biggest thing it proves is that information could be hidden, and many people were on board to make it happen. And if it weren't for (1) person making a remark about it in 1939, then I'd still be in the dark. Michael, I may not be right but after re-reading statements... Betty had to get "in touch with Mrs. Morrow. AND Ellerson had went to work at 8 and cleaned the chevrolet and put it at the door for Miss Elizabeth Morrow (mother or daughter??)
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Post by Michael on Feb 3, 2011 17:45:04 GMT -5
This is important. I think, for example, Betty left out the stop originally so that she didn't have to mention Red. That doesn't mean he's involved. It could mean she knows he isn't so she's trying to avoid his being drug into it. So there's several possibilities.
I think everyone is unique in their perspective of certain things. Giving or not giving slack may apply in one place for one person then not in others for that exact same person. Thens there's degrees of it. It's all in the eye of the beholder. But its important because if we all saw things the exact same way all the time nothing would get accomplished by way of figuring things out.
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 3, 2011 21:56:35 GMT -5
P.S. Michael, Thanks for the floor plan...it allows me to put a better perspective on timing and entryways in the house...and garage....and window placement.
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 4, 2011 19:32:46 GMT -5
Michael and Kevkon, I know you guys have been into this case for a very long time. Obviously you both have information that is not known to the public...All I can do is base my thoughts on what I have to work with because I certainly do not have the money to invest in the books and private collections...I still have a full house at home...two boys in high school. All extra expenses now go into high gas costs and trying to provide descent teen fun for them...BUT I LOVE THIS CASE, I got pulled in. I am so grateful for everything extra that is offered through all your hard work and investments...
What I can offer is research, time, and my opinion from what material I do have available (here of course with all the extras you both contribute)
As for secrets kept in the family...I can find no information on Dwight Jr., Elizabeth, Mrs. Morrow...so I am now at a standstill working with what I know...(through posts I get some foggy ideas)
I know Elizabeth (MRS. or MISS is at question) was not at the Morrow home by reading all the statements Betty "got in touch" with her Ellerson had the car at the door for her that morning so obviously she went somewhere...(don't know where???) I know mental problems were in the Morrow Children's Genes (from posts)
I know the staff at the Hopewell Home consisted of the Whateleys (Elsie and Olly), Betty Gow the night of the disappearance I know the dog was left at the Morrow home, or was he in the basket in the sitting room with Betty (either way he did not bark) I know Ellerson drove Betty from Englewood to Hopewell
I know Septimus was in on the calls and planning the transfer (BETTY), drank heavily, had relationship with Violet
I know Violet also took a call that day, she also released secrets to a friend of the press, and killed herself or was killed by someone June 10, 1932
I know these are the people I am looking at presently, these were the people I KNOW were involved in getting the nurse from one home to the other...on the day the baby disappeared.
I know stories and times changed over several interviews within a months time
BUT I DO NOT KNOW
Secrets of where family members were Mrs. Morrow Elizabeth Dwight Jr. Anything found through private collections or books I have not read YET (though I plan on getting one soon) I am clueless.
I know there were pawns put into place to cover up secret goings on in the family
I believe that these pawns include: Ladder Chisel Jafsie Cemetary John Rosner
Do you all honestly think that Cemetary John would be honest with Jafsie in their long unbelievable conversations? Even Jafsie said he was told to stir up chaos and confusion...it was all part of the plan.
In all honesty, even without privy information...It is my opinion that even if this was a plan from weeks or months before...it was put into action by the "INSIDER"
The "Insider" has to be either: 1. Ann Lindbergh 2. Charles Lindbergh 3. Betty Gow 4. Olly Whateley 5. Elsie Whateley
One of these five helped something go down that night, one "or more" got the ball rolling! All of them could have for all I know...
UNLESS SOMEONE WAS HIDDEN INSIDE THE HOUSE AWAITING AN OPPORTUNITY...OR
...Could something have happened prior to the date we are led to believe this happened? ...Were the Breckenridges and Ava there Saturday night and Sunday for some other reason? ...Could Mrs. Morrow have been involved? ....Could Sister Elizabeth be involved? ....Could Dwight Jr. be involved? All these are people I have no information about...where were all these family members? does anyone know?
Could little Charles have had some kind of surgery that backfired? For a disability of some kind the world was not allowed to know about? CAL eugenics Dr. Carrell could have performed or set up experimental surgery that went wrong maybe?
RAB Archives mentions the sleeping suit and STAMFORD CT. He mentions the water routes. All kinds of them...because the baby was said to be on a boat by several He suggest that possibly Stamford could have been a half way meeting point between individuals
I hope this may be some help from me: I went to google maps and did a lot of putting in and taking out...
Here is some approximations of what I came up with:
Road Routes
Hartford (Red Johnson) to Stamford is round 80 miles Hopewell to Stamford is around 95 miles Bronx to Stamford is around 26 miles Stamford to Rockland Maine (goes out to North Haven Island where Betty and Red met) appr 360 m Toronto Canada (Violet and Edna Sharp before USA entry) to Stamford 785 km Detroit to Stamford 650 m Detroit to Toronto 393 km Toronto to Hartford 814 km Chicago to stamford 850 miles
Again I estimated within close range and some are in km and miles...note that
Water Routes
Bronx Englewood City Island Hart Island Fort Schuyler All the above form one small cluster on map
Morris Cove Water Route is between Stamford and Hartford (43 miles from Hartford and 79 miles from Stamford)
North Haven, Maine is an island off the coast of Maine that stand by itself...
Let me know what you all think and if you might can add to some of my questions
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Post by Michael on Feb 5, 2011 9:10:24 GMT -5
I think what you are doing is good. You take what you have then consider what others may have to counter, add to, or even create more questions to.
The hardest part to this Case is evaluation. I have several Official sources on subjects which contradict. There are sources that are wrong sometimes then right others. Then you have individual "personalities" who will make stuff up, or talk up one source and shrug off others they do not like. Then there's the stuff we just don't know.... so we are forced to speculate.
The NJSP Archives themselves can be its own mystery. There's files where you think they would be, then files where you think they shouldn't be - and they shouldn't - but there they are. Then there's a "rogue" report which is a keystone to certain investigations that turns up, or certain elements supplemented in the Hoffman Collection that you just cannot find anywhere else.
It's not a simple Case of letting the facts lead you to the truth because if it were it would have been completely solved.
You've mentioned the dogs. There were several. Many are mentioned by name and then every once in a while I come across something I never saw before. Take the English Bulldog dubbed by the NJ Troopers "Highfields Sue." I found the pictures of her last year. I have no idea where this dog came from. Was it Lindy's? Was it a stray? Was it a Neighbors? I don't know. But the Troopers took a liking to it so I have to assume it hung around them either at the gate or the house.
The key to determining who "Elizabeth" is - is in the spelling. Eli(s)abeth is the daughter. Eli(z)abeth is the Mother. That is, unless someone spells it wrongly.
Rosner isn't in place to cover anything up in my opinion. He accused Fogerty or Galvin as being in "league" with the Kidnappers. He was also blistering in his criticism of the NJSP.
But he also, in my opinion, wasn't always on the level either. That is unless he's just wrong but actually believes it. Every person involved has varying degrees of believability. Some more then others but I've also found there's a possibility of bogus information from anyone. But there's also something to be learned from everyone too. We cannot discount anything simply because we don't like the source. Furthermore, we cannot accept everything because we like it.
It has to fit in BOTH the immediate subject/issue AND in the overall scheme of things. In this Case a puzzle piece must snap into two seperate places in order to "work."
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kevkon
Lt. Colonel
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Post by kevkon on Feb 5, 2011 10:47:02 GMT -5
I guess I take a different path as I only believe in what story the physical evidence can tell. And there is still more that it can. Then again, I don't necessarily believe a kidnapping was planned or committed that night
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Post by hunley2 on Feb 5, 2011 11:24:42 GMT -5
The key to determining who "Elizabeth" is - is in the spelling. Eli(s)abeth is the daughter. Eli(z)abeth is the Mother. That is, unless someone spells it wrongly. (Michael)
Ellerson says: ..."Miss Elizabeth Morrow" which sounds like it would be the sister because of the "Miss" instead of "Mrs." (what I would expect if he was referring to the mom...
In Ellerson's statement he also said he worked for "The New York Telephone Company.... as a wire chief's clerk...for about three years..."
I read somewhere about one of the original kidnappers fleeing and contacting the police via letter...in this letter he said that one of the kidnappers was tapping into the phones of the Lindbergh's or Morrow's...how smart he is...this one writing the letter got cold feet and told them to follow the phone lines....I do not recall exactly now what all was said, but I know the kidnappers tapping into the phone lines was mentioned
Has anyone ever put Ellerson in this category?
Ellerson and Betty had a long drive together that day...and were in contact regularly through employment???
Has this ever been considered by the board?
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Post by Michael on Feb 7, 2011 8:27:54 GMT -5
We have to remember the Cops were taking these statements down in their note-books then typing them out later. Many of these guys were poor at spelling and some may not have known the difference themselves. The context or other indicators are necessary in order to determine who they are talking about.
I've considered both independently but never working together. That's new territory on my end of things.
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