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Post by Michael on Apr 18, 2010 8:42:18 GMT -5
This is really good research Kevin - keep it going!
Let me ask you this and forgive me if you already have in a past post.... What kind of paper are you using?
I still have the other report I want to post.
+++
Also, Pam is logging in, it accepts her login, then when she tries to post its telling her she isn't logged in. My guess is that it is the Browser or Cache. If anyone else is having this problem, or if you think you know the solution to it please let me or Pam know via post, PM, or email. Thanks!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2010 11:57:30 GMT -5
At this time I am only using cheap bond paper until I am satisfied with the transfer. My initial impressions are thus far; - The first note symbol shows less completeness than most of the others. Could this be another instance of improvisation?
- It seems pretty clear to me that the large circles were created by transferring ink from an impervious surface, while the red sphere was created by transfer from a non-impervious one. This can be seen by the blotchy appearance of the red sphere.
- Any way you do it, it's a potentially messy process.
- The first note doesn't seem to have been blotted.
- I am surprised at the almost cursory investigation given to the symbol construction at the time. It's no wonder the signature was not instrumental in catching Hauptmann and that it was not used in the trial.
I'll continue on when I get the materials I am waiting for.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 18, 2010 12:39:17 GMT -5
Good "sing" circles, Kevkon! Thanx for putting up the photo of it.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 18, 2010 15:52:27 GMT -5
Kevkon, You know that kind of implement that starts out almost looking like a screwdriver but is concave shaped on the end? I used one of those when I was building a bookcase. It's where I was sinking headless nails deeper into the wood in order then to tap in wood plugs. Do you think a tool like that may have been used for the (no hanging chads) holes in singnature? Along with that, I haven't given up on the idea that a hinge may have been used for template. I kept coming up with door hinges having the middle hole offset from the ones on each end--drat it! A few minutes ago I thought to look at the hinges on an antique buffet I have. Voila! Three holes in an even row. Do you or Michael have the measurements between the three holes of the ransom notes? I might have to throw out the whole idea, but would like to chew on it a bit more.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2010 16:16:33 GMT -5
Hi Mairi, good to hear your research! I have something coming that may prove to be perfect for the holes, I'll have to wait to see. Those clover like ones are the problem. A hinge for the template! Yes, I thought about that, but as you found out, most have at least one hole offset. That's so the chance of splitting the wood is minimized. Finding a three hole one with no offset is a real find! The holes are about 1" on center. What is just as important as the spacing though, is the distance from the holes to the edge of the template so that it can be located on the paper in the correct location. That should be about 3/16" from the side and 1 3/8" from the bottom.
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Post by Michael on Apr 18, 2010 17:11:51 GMT -5
Here is the other Report (actually a Memo) I promised. It's actually from Lt. Snook and includes the following (undated): SYMBOL
Definite Points Established.
None.
Problematical.
1. Large Cirlces made Top of Cork Black Ink Bottle
2. Small Circle Made with bottom of Cork of Red Ink Bottle. (Probably Waterman's)
3. Holes not all made at the same time.
4. Symbol indicates sense of balance, symetry and beauty.[ Lt. Snook]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 18, 2010 19:29:27 GMT -5
Let's think about that for a moment. It should be evident as to why using the top of the stopper would not be practical.
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Post by Michael on Apr 19, 2010 16:01:57 GMT -5
Well, I am simply watching what you and Mairi come up with. If what you are saying is true - then it can't be a non-impervious source for this.....
I wonder why due to the fact so much time was spent on the writing. After all, they say it was the heaviest of disguises - so much so that they got tired and gave up on it in the 2nd note. So that, to me, shows the 1st note required more time and attention - does it not? And if so, why then less on the symbol?
Just thinking out loud here.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 19, 2010 16:33:23 GMT -5
If you use the top of the stopper as an ink pad then you are not going to use that ink bottle again unless you want to fingerprint yourself.
I'm still amazed that the symbol has been given such short notice. I even went back through Haring's Hand of Hauptmann. Nothing.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 20, 2010 4:41:35 GMT -5
there is something odd or untoward, a nonsequitor, about the symbol that causes me to reflect on the merits of the two gang theory of Parker>>Wright..Scaduto. more specifically it is the two unrelated media required: ink and carpentry? These two are odd bedfellows...and why required? [Pen and Hammer] Are the ink circles too weak alone/ or the 3 square holes/ a conundrum? www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/brace.htmlthe 2 gang theory arises from the differences between the nursery note and first ransom note...they dont match ? Looks like two hands at work? Very few persons can write the same style w/ both left and right anyways--so thats a very weak argument--only Count Cagliostro? Obviously a red herring...or Red Harring? Also, we should all agree that the Bronx gang doesnt even have CJr--thats why they ask JFC "Is he dead?" So just as a straw man/women...lets say the Temple-Fisch gang hooks up w/ Noso-Means and each owns a part of the symbol? The fems take to ink circles and the spys take the holds? Separate but equal? But why go to all this trouble? Each symbol structure is unigue on its own merits? Are there two cryptic codex in play here--not just one? eg two gangs? A complex union of opposites? And all it costs CAL is $50K?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 20, 2010 7:23:15 GMT -5
It's worth a smite for asking, what makes you think there are "two unrelated media required: ink and carpentry" involved in the symbol? Why is a hammer necessary to make three small punched holes in writing paper? I would agree that the Nursery note is far different than the rest to follow. I'm not a QDE, so I defer to those who know regarding the handwriting. But there's no doubt that differences exist in the symbol construction.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 21, 2010 2:02:26 GMT -5
Kevin....it just feels to me like two brains at work here--like right brain (ink circles) and left brain (3 holds)> - you know like Drawing on the Right side of Your Brain? Betty Edwards.
- if ever confirmed...the symbol maker needs to dissassemble the Mersman, at least once, to construct the pattern for the holes each time...more blue collar? Its not likely he/she keeps a Mersman table brace in the drawing room? Although there were literally "millions of Mersmans" at the time.
- Yes....a simple nail or leather tool punch would do...with a 4 leaf clover head sometimes/
- Usually when you get an idea...its not that all encompassing or diss-jointed? eg painting vs sculpture vs woodwork/ not all 3...
- Maybe the right-brain woman wrote the Nursery note and the left brain spy wrote the 2nd/ or visa-versa to be cute?
- if it truly is a "signature" is it that of two persons working in concert? a union of opposites? and which writes the notes?
- In an odd sort of way.....the symbol maker leaves us a clear-cut lead, but not towards BRH? So it is a "signature">>>to who? [Margarite and johanssen Junge?]
- why go to so much bother when you dont have CJr anyways? Whats the game? Blackmail or Extortion?
- Art and Hammer; Ink and Nail; Punch and Judy; Point and Circles; Shock and Awl?
- In sixty years (60) hasn't anyone confirmed What Mersman Model # Bolliard's table brace was?
- thanks for nothing Kev on table/sll talk--no action.
www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/brace.html#Clarifications Concerning the Table Evidence
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 21, 2010 7:21:03 GMT -5
Well thanks for the reply (and the smite), Rick. This kinda reminds me of the common Polish joke, how many people does it take to write a note? If you are serious about this Mersman angle, I suggest you try it for yourself. You can pick them up pretty cheap or send me your address and I will ship you an exact replica base plinth. Then you can punch away to your hearts content ( with or without a hammer). One word of caution though, you will be punching for a long time before you come up with anything like those found on the ransom notes. If you are still interested after that, I can send you the Mersman catalog with the model info.
In the mean time, could you please post some photos of the ink bottle and cork top you used to make the large circles that matched the symbol? I'm having a hard time finding it.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 21, 2010 22:18:37 GMT -5
Sorry kev....I went to 50+ websites on Google/eBay and couldnt find the right photo either: - Its Watermans Ideal Ink for fountain pens No 302 violet
- Box is yellow with big Red Letters...blueblack is No 102
- Bottle is clear with raised letters and cork w/ plastic top
- When I looked just a few years back they were easy to find?
- Dont have any clue where they all went to now?
Dont keep us in suspense on the Mersman table Model #...even mark falzini doesnt know what it is.... just spill the beans? Maybe the hole punching is a secret spy trick for initiates only?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 22, 2010 6:54:04 GMT -5
Hey thanks for that Rick. I was really hoping you had that bottle & top. I have looked and looked for a bottle stopper that might work, but none of the cork types seem right. I suspected it could be a transitional top with both cork and bakelite like this; cgi.ebay.com/Waterman-red-ink-16-oz-1930s-Ideal-Globe-cap-/300367640923?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45ef4e795bProblem is , every one I have found has embossing on the cap which would rule it out for the circles. I have even gone to some collectors, but no luck. The Mersman is a dead issue unless someone can show how you could use it as a template with the same alignment as the notes and produce the same holes. I sure as hell couldn't and believe me I spent a helluva lot of time on it. That's why I suggest trying for yourself if you really believe it's worthy.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 23, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
The holes; [a href=" "][/a] [/url] Made 100% free of carpentry tools and table parts. Just three things found on any desk in 1932 were used and one of them is the paper.
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Post by Michael on Apr 24, 2010 7:06:33 GMT -5
Looks pretty good to me - great work!
Does this work with (3) sheets stacked together as well? However, since the Police were searching for ways to make these holes, how do you account for them missing what you have stumbled upon? Were these items among the Hauptmann inventories?
If you want to wait on answering these questions I will understand. I can see you are working to the end of this so I don't want to put the cart before the horse.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 24, 2010 11:21:38 GMT -5
The holes I made were punched with both two and three sheets. I don't know if the police would have bothered to inventory these items as they are so innocuous or if they were discarded long before. Or for those so inclined, that they were never part of Hauptmann's items. I will pm you what they are as well as anyone else who is seriously interested. My guess is that the police didn't look until they had Hauptmann and then they fell into the same mindset I originally had which was based on his occupation. The interesting thing is that the "template" is part of the process. The real question is still why he felt it necessary to add these after he had made the symbol on the Nursery note.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 25, 2010 13:13:20 GMT -5
Here is another set punched 2 at time with actual 1930's writing paper similar to the actual notes; [a href=" "][/a] [/url] I think the holes are even more accurate with the period paper.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 27, 2010 16:03:43 GMT -5
Good on you, Kevkon! The "sing" reproduction pictures look great!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 28, 2010 9:34:15 GMT -5
Thank you Mairi! Please keep going with your own experiment with the "singnature". I know a lot of people like to argue grand theories and that's fine. I guarantee that it's only by working through these seemingly small issues that progress will be made. Let's all try and figure out what the cause was for adding those holes after the symbol was made. There had to have been a reason and it had to have been important at the time.
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Post by Michael on Apr 29, 2010 5:56:12 GMT -5
I thought the symbol colors were made after the holes which is exemplified by the bleeding through.... Did I misunderstand something you've written, or just mistaken?
Could you straighten me out here?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 29, 2010 7:42:12 GMT -5
Look for any bleed thru on the first ( Nursery) note.
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Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2010 5:38:24 GMT -5
Ok. Refresh my memory here... Is this the only note where this occurs?
A possibility could be the holes were an "after-thought" on this note, therefore, were added lastly. The problem is that we do not know if the text was written before the symbol was created or not. I do think its a safe bet the text pointing out those holes came after the holes were added.
It's an enhancement which seems to be added. There could be a motive for this, and in my opinion, suggests two minds at work here.
Or it could be they were just ad-libbing there way through the creation of this 1st note. After figuring out what worked they "went with it" for the duration.
Any more ideas?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 30, 2010 7:31:47 GMT -5
Yes, it's the only note without red ink bleeding thru. You may disagree, but I see this note as a first attempt. In fact, I believe there is a possibility that the symbol might have not been originally intended. In any case, why would we see such improvisation evident if this whole thing was the result of extensive planning? The addition of the holes proves evolution of the signature at work. Why is it evolving and why is there a need for it to be more elaborate? I know I sound like a broken record here, but I really do believe the Nursery note can reveal a large part of the crime.
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Post by Michael on Apr 30, 2010 15:34:41 GMT -5
Or it could be something along the lines of a suggestion I made a while back. That is, the ransom wasn't supposed to be collected. Then, at the last minute, someone decided they might just want to pull a double cross by keeping the money they were paid AND collecting what was supposed to be a bogus ransom request.....
So the symbol is needed to make it look official then... these holes are the key (or option) to the collection of this ransom. The child is dead, as planned, so how else could they have done it without a living child?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 1, 2010 14:59:10 GMT -5
Interesting though, is the fact that no one wasted their time checking hole alignment. The symbol and the letter content was more than enough. Actually the sleeping suit was also required, so the holes really did nothing. And as I have said previously, a kidnapper normally always has proof of who he is by virtue of that which he holds. There must be some reason Hauptmann felt if necessary to add the holes.
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Post by Michael on May 2, 2010 8:29:07 GMT -5
"Even the strange symbol of blue-ink circles, with their overlapping portion filled in with red ink, conceivably could have been duplicated by an impostor - but no person on earth other then the man who wrote the note found pinned to the baby's nursery could have duplicated those holes," investigators declare.
"This is the reason: The crudely written note on the window sill and all subsequent letters received as a result of the 'Jafsie' negotiations by Dr. John F. Condon had been piled on top of one another-probably in blank sheet form long before any of the letters were written-and punctured simultaneously in three places on the circle symbol. [Associated Press, 9-21-1934]
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 2, 2010 9:26:28 GMT -5
Is this AP report backed up by the official reports?
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Post by Michael on May 2, 2010 12:58:57 GMT -5
That's hard for me to say. Since the Investigator isn't identified, then I don't know if there's a report to back it up. The way the FBI reports are written....there are a lot that are written having 50 subjects included in just one....so its hard to file and/or remember each individual subject by that report.
I am also seeing articles written by Reporters where they include information from people who are seldom mentioned. Like, take for example, Hopewell Police Officer Williamson and what his theory was.... There's no report or testimony concerning it. But he's interviewed by a Reporter and tells them.
The bottom line is there is so much stuff. The idea for me has been to accumulate as much as possible to sift through. What's creditable or not depends upon the person researching the subject.
This AP piece sounds like they interviewed someone who knew what they were talking about. However, its hard to say without a report, and really hard to say without a name.
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