kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 11, 2010 11:28:29 GMT -5
Is anyone besides Mairi interested in re-creating the symbol. There's a lot that can be learned from this and it's a subject that I think has escaped a lot of scrutiny.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 11, 2010 15:40:47 GMT -5
You were purely correct in warning how difficult it would be! Am still trying to analyze what I learned from it ;D. 1) my tools and supplies were quite makeshift. acrylic paint diluted and not 2) punches =phillips head screwdriver and point of ballpoint pen. ...No out and out hanging chads 3) Each hole through the red, coated inner aspect of centre hole red, just as you had found. 4) Where red glob overlayed blue circle I had a faint trace of purple. It definitely needs more trials by me! I (we) need more tips from you, KevKon!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 11, 2010 16:02:32 GMT -5
Mairi, I'm waiting for Michael to post the results of the original report on the symbol construction. I've never seen it and only remember hearing that they felt the large circles were made by inking the bottom of an ink bottle and the small red one was made with a cork stopper. I could be wrong since I heard this quite a long time ago. Now I just tried it with a 1930's bottle of Carter's violet ink ala Ebay. While the diameter was wrong I did get something very like the note symbols. The results seem very inconsistent so far. Another thing, this is one messy process. I forgot how easy it is to get that writing ink everywhere but where you want it! One thing I did notice, the stopper on the bottle has a strange shape and I want to see if I can make the holes with it.
Some advice please; am I correct in assuming that a writer in the early 30's would be using a refillable fountain pen, inkwell, and blotter? Also, what did they do when traveling or away from the desk?
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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2010 17:05:39 GMT -5
There's a couple of reports I am searching for. I will upload them when they are located. Remember you will probably have to log in to see them.... I know that Joe did some work on the symbol. His "hole" formation research is posted in our Archives here: It's a good thing you and Mairi are doing this. Sometimes thoughts or ideas need to be actually tried out now and then to test the theories which are accepted as fact.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 11, 2010 18:14:09 GMT -5
[quote author=kevkon board=talk thread=600 post=9690 Some advice please; am I correct in assuming that a writer in the early 30's would be using a refillable fountain pen, inkwell, and blotter? Also, what did they do when traveling or away from the desk?[/quote] kevkon, My impression is that you are correct that fountain pens were used in the 30's. When I was little that's what I recall seeing (in the 40's). I remember how sometimes the ink would let go and cause a blob on the paper I recall refilling fountain pens just out of the ink bottle.I don't know how many still used the older method of dipping back and forth (into ink well) and writing. As to using an ink well,don't you imagine there would have been a stopper to seal it when the person was away? I've seen pretty inkwells in photos and somewhere in the long ago I guess it was someone I knew, had one, maybe at that point as just a decorator desk item. I collect (individual use) salt wells aka salt cellars. Have just a few master salt cellars, from which the individual ones are filled. Would this be somewhat similar to pouring abit of ink from a (supply) bottle into an ink well, do you think?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 11, 2010 18:37:26 GMT -5
Michael, Thanks for posting the review of Joe's hole punching demonstration. It is quite helpful to see that. Yes, I agree, there is something interesting about trying out hands-on experiments. Something had sort of crossed my mind about a concave punch, but had nothing at hand like it. Might have to make a trip to my "friendly neighborhood hardware store".. huh?
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 11, 2010 19:18:49 GMT -5
As usual, Kevkon is correct.
But what if the premice is incorrect? It's assumed that the blue circles are round, and so it's always been assumed that they were made from the bottom of a bottle. But if you'll look closely they aren't quite (more correctly, exactly) round and could have been made more easily by a brush without having to deal with messy ink bottles. In fact the circles are what is called an artist's round which is pretty close to circle but just giving the artistic touch. Same for the red pattern which has never matched with anything - brush!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 11, 2010 20:07:35 GMT -5
Mairi, yes I remember playing with my parents old pens, what a mess. But what did people do when traveling or when away from the desk? What about blotting?
Jack, I'm not sure I understand how the circles could be brushed. Do you mean they were made freehand? Do you think you could do this and post photos?
As for the holes, I think I may have found what made them. Those cloverleaf like holes really perplexed me. I was stuck thinking something carpentry related. I should have been thinking writing related. Now to see if it works. If it does, and I am not sure it will, I would bet that the "template" for the holes will be found in the same area.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 11, 2010 22:16:47 GMT -5
TG for Kevkon - and I really do say that with heart and meaning! Just above is the best post I've ever seen on any LKC site!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 11, 2010 22:38:37 GMT -5
Yes I could do it by brush - but I'm not saying it was done by brush. The red mark could have been by brush heavily laid. Most likely, as said it was a bottle twisted. But the red doesn't really work for a bottle twisted - so why use two methods?
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Post by Michael on Apr 12, 2010 7:47:55 GMT -5
I found what I was looking for. Of course that always leads to other things.... I will type out the first report then post Ho-age's tomorrow (possibly). If I am not mistaken, this same report is mentioned in Lloyd's book: After considerable experimentation both Dr. Souder and Mr. Davis stated it was their opinion that the large circles in the symbol were made by the top of a cork of a black ink bottle (probably a Waterman's) and the smaller red circle by the bottom of a cork of a red ink bottle. Mr. Davis duplicated the large circles with a cork from a Waterman's ink bottle. It was thought that the holes in the paper were made by some blunt instrument punched through the paper using something under the paper as a guage..... [Lt. Snook, NJSP Report, May '32] ++++++ I am off to the Archives again to tie up some loose ends. In trying to impress upon anyone reading this - the nature of researching this case - here is yet another example..... For over a decade now I've been spending a lot of time at the NJSP Archives. One would think (by now) there wouldn't be much left (if I had been properly researching) to find. But down through the years I've found interesting material only to see it "end" or "cut off".... So here today I am following up on something I found that I thought had ended but never really did. Researching a family named "Schlacht" I was curious to find certain facts that had me wanting to follow up. But, as I stated above, the Reports came to an abrupt halt. I scratched my head and quickly moved on. Recently I came upon a report mentioning a family named "Slack" and guess what? Same family. Either the name morphed due to spelling, different investigating officer, alias, or it becoming "Americanized." Don't know. But its why you can't write a serious book making (8) trips or so to these Archives. You just can't if you are serious about what you are writing. Anyway, hope what I posted helps with this discussion and I will scan the rest later.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 12, 2010 14:29:12 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that Michael, I should have thought to look in Lloyd's book. It seems interesting that the investigators didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the symbol. It should be viewed as an important piece of evidence in it's own right. Imagine if the wood evidence was ignored and upon Hauptmann's arrest a search revealed the components used to make the signature. Regarding the holes, I think they only have it partly right. They should have been asking why the sheets were punched in pairs. That's were the answer lies. The rest of the answers were probably right in front of them on top of a desk.
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Post by rick3 on Apr 13, 2010 2:17:48 GMT -5
Michael...you are absolutely 100% correct! [there is no need to randomly reinvent the wheel]
I actually bought a couple Wasserman Ink bottles offen Ebay a couple years to check this...its a piece of cake. Couldnt find red and blue but only purple and black...works like a charm. The Hand of Hauptman is so close to scale you can reproduce (or cover) the center dot "on the book cover" in 2 seconds!! Check and mate.
So now we all hold both the method of the symbol and the method of the holes....eg the Mersman table brace...perfect match every time! Just like clockwork...just ask Mark!
Does anyone but me think that this "combination" may have been used for more than the LKH? Why invent such an easily reproducible, yet elegant symbol with everyday household items just for one kidnapping? Could it have been used for some other covert purpose as well? There were alot of Mersmans around in 1932? What other type endeavors might require a recognizable, yet easily reproducible, symbol? (eg one that might even be copied?)[keeping in mind that this symbol cost CAL $50,000 bucks and did not result in return of CJr "safe and sound"?]
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 13, 2010 2:55:54 GMT -5
So were there other kidnappings w/this type sig? What he's saying is legit. $ 50 K is peanuts! Theo Hamm from St. Paul went for $ 200 K in quick. So do they want to make some money or is this some other C? Gotta be some other junk and along comes poor man Jack and gets killed? But he don't yet - he F's with peoplein bowling alleys and is an army guy and he messes with them in Iraq and Afghanistan and still they keep after him. So he makes his last stand with his friends Rita and Rick and is finally totally shot down. But Jack is still standing and so is Rick and Rita and where are you all? In mud?
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Post by rick3 on Apr 13, 2010 3:18:16 GMT -5
So were there other kidnappings w/this type sig? What he's saying is legit. $ 50 K is peanuts! Theo Hamm from St. Paul went for $ 200 K in quick. So do they want to make some money or is this some other C? Gotta be some other junk and along comes poor man Jack and gets killed? But he don't yet - he F's with peoplein bowling alleys and is an army guy and he messes with them in Iraq and Afghanistan and still they keep after him. So he makes his last stand with his friends Rita and Rick and is finally totally shot down. But Jack is still standing and so is Rick and Rita and where are you all? In mud? not necessarily another kidnapping? hows about: - international spies? Nosovitzky and/or Means
- or rumrunners? e.g. Purple Gang...did you ever see any coffee tables in a cigarette boat?
- Nazi SS? NSDAP/
- Frat boys? maybe CJr was snatched as college prank--Norris
- Why didnt anyone plant a Mersman in BRHs living room?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 13, 2010 7:17:49 GMT -5
That's great, Rick. Did you use the corkstopper bottles or the capped? I was just curious about the stopper.
So you made the holes too? How did you index the sheet? What made the strange pattern? Those Mersman holes are pretty big, how did you keep the holes from enlarging and tearing. What I don't get is how BRH got a hold of that table prior to it's manufacture?
Perhaps because Hemingway put it on the line and exposed his soul for all to see. That's the price. You won't get adulation by making claims and then dancing around the issue. You will get it when you stand behind what you say and take whatever comes at you.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Apr 13, 2010 15:49:41 GMT -5
Hey there, Rick, Was pleased to hear of your symbol experiment. You and Kevkon have a knack at these hands-on trials! My effort at it was quite makeshift, but at least a little bit revealing. I keep thinking the implements had to have been around-the-house handy, then disposed of or so mundane that the police didn't figure it(?)
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Post by Michael on Apr 13, 2010 16:15:28 GMT -5
Ho-age's report is (4) pages long. I am pressed for time so I am posting the 1st page for now. I also found another report authored by both Farrar & Souder which I think should be looked at as well.
I am not up to date with this thread yet either so I need to do that before I can make any comment.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 13, 2010 20:15:10 GMT -5
Hemingway was a very unusual person. He actually sought violence. I'm not sure what the psychological relationship for that is, but it can't be good. Psycotic? He had people with him on a boat trip once (they were essentially trapped - possibly one of his "submarine hunts") and he just kept unloading his shotgun on harmless little birds who were flying around the boat looking for their lost lovers. It made the others on the boat absolutely sick. So you try to tell me about Hemingway's courage and that is total BS - he was an absolute buffoon. They wouldn't let him drive ambulances in France because he was too unstable so he rode bicycle - look it up. He came upon trick writing because of his journalism experience (he once interviewed Mussolini) but if it wasn't for Scott Fitzgerald Hemingway would never have amounted to anything more than another big (sizewise) loser. And if you don't believe that maybe you should look up the real life of the great Ernest. His father committed suicide, he did, and his daughter did too, so that might be a hint of what kind of genetics are there.
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Post by vovina on Apr 14, 2010 9:56:16 GMT -5
Kevkon : In response to your question in reply#2 - what would a writer in the 1930's use when traveling or away from the desk - the answer is a fountain pen using an ink cartridge system. These items were also equipped with a clip. On pg. 235 of the explorer/adventurer W.B. Seabrook's 1927 book " Adventures In Arabia ", such a pen is described as clipped in a waistcoat pocket. Such a clip could possibly be removed to perhaps punch distinct holes in paper as the tip was a rounded metal ball.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 14, 2010 16:09:19 GMT -5
Thanks for that Vovina. I knew about the cartridges, but not when they came into widespread use. I guess what I'm trying to understand is how they carried around bottles and pens. Was there a portable writing station?
Rick, I forgot to ask you, did you use the top or bottom of the corks to match the symbol?
Michael, any chance you can post that report on the symbol?
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2010 17:52:09 GMT -5
Page 2 of the Ho-age Report: Attachments:
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2010 17:59:30 GMT -5
Page 3: Attachments:
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2010 18:00:26 GMT -5
Final Page: Attachments:
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2010 18:02:50 GMT -5
X-tra Bonus Page (found elsewhere) that I am making available to non-registered Guests too: (If you are interested to see the other pages simply join the board as a Member by registering).
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Post by Aussie Pam on Apr 15, 2010 1:50:41 GMT -5
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Post by rick3 on Apr 15, 2010 2:11:31 GMT -5
Simple logic dictates that BRH did not construct the secret symbol(SS): - if he owned any Mersman table...he wood have kept it? (Just like the Blood money and Lilliput pistol)
- has anyone determined that any or every similar make/model Mersman Duncan fyfe table brace can be used?
- how could BRHs coffee table be owned by Bolliard in Plainfield NJ? see Gardner pp. 413-414. [the entire book is online!] [search: table, Elmer, Bolliard, Plainfield]
- "If the poem dont fit/ you must acguit?"
- no Vassermans Ideal Inks or bottles were found to match?
- BRH is not Jewish or Hebrewic?
- MM has always been 50/50 on the handwriting because of prejewdice...anyone who said BRH didnt do it was diss-missed?
- to the best of our knowledge, BRH did not belong to any group or organization that used an "off-the-shelf" symbol for ready recognition? [think Hymie Rosner; then Owney Madden]
- oh yes, the top of the cork is distinctly ribbed? its the part in the ink thats a perfect match...
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 15, 2010 5:35:40 GMT -5
Rita had a Mersmer table in the foyer of the last apartment which she lived in. I asked her to go down and take it apart and measure the holes - as far as I know she never did.
I have always been surprised that if Hauptmann was truly guilty there wouldn't be some physical evidence linking him especially to the notes, i.e. a bottle or something, and that has always been a problem.
But they never found a cork or anything - it could have been brushed but they never found a brush.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 15, 2010 7:11:35 GMT -5
Aussie Pam, thanks that is kind of what I am getting at. I can't see carrying ink bottles and all the other stuff around loosely.
Rick,thanks for not answering the questions . Was the smite(s) for asking you a question or was it just a general smite? That's why I prefer to confront someone directly, it makes the issue clear. But hey, we all have different ways of dealing with things.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 17, 2010 15:51:31 GMT -5
Here's an attempt I made to recreate the large circles with 1930's violet ink and the bottom of the ink bottle; img683.imageshack.us/img683/9206/misc064.jpgI think it's close but not there. I noticed that the original has tiny traces of what looks like ridges on the inside. Still, I think it's a lot closer than those from the original investigations.
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