kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Jan 8, 2007 17:35:21 GMT -5
Not having a 30 Dodge 6 laying about it is hard to say absolutely yes, but I think it could be managed . I would guess the ladder would have to be in the nested position and perhaps on edge. That is if the front seat is the one occupied. No problem for a backseat passenger.
I agree completely regarding a second ladder.
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Post by Michael on Jan 21, 2007 9:08:28 GMT -5
During my most recent visit to the Archives I attempted to find more on any "Green Car" sighting. As I said, as it pertains to the NJSP Collection there are sometimes (4) different files which are supposed to contain the same reports but most of the times there are unique reports in all of them. Here is one such report:
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Post by rick3 on Jan 21, 2007 13:27:28 GMT -5
Michael--this whole green car thing is bugging me? - I think there was a Green Hudson seen around Highfields on the night of the snatch? Who saw this car?
- I think that Charlie Shippell (Shoepfel) has a Green Paige sedan? Hidden under some straw?
- I think that Ernie Brinkert has a Green Nash sedan? Maybe Ernie Johnson has a Green car too--a two seater?
- I think that Charlie Ellerson has a Green Ford Coupe and saw a car just like that in the LIndbergh Drive on his way home?
- I think that Red Johnson bought a Green Chrysler Convertible 2 weeks before the snatch? How could he do this? Could this be the two seater that picked up Edna and Violet on Sunday?
- How much difference is there between all the Green sedans to be able to tell both make and model. All early 1930s cars look alike?
- Who owns the 1924 Green Chrysler sedan (above post) --this car is getting kind of olde? Even BRH has a newer one? Dont license plates ever trace to the owners?
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Post by Michael on Jan 22, 2007 6:46:20 GMT -5
I know Rick... This is why I believe its so important to research and research then research some more. Its been 6 years I've been going to the Archives and I just found this. Imagine that. And so of course I tried to follow it up and I learned this car had been reported stolen on March 1st around 10PM but the owner wasn't sure when it had been taken....then it was recovered around 2AM on March 2nd by Atlantic City Police.
Of course there is a report that is referenced to that I cannot find so I will continue to search and perhaps I will find it my next trip to West Trenton.
It reminds me a little of the Schindler situation, and if this car is stolen in Margate, seen near Highfields, then found in Atlantic City in this short period of time then I think the circumstances dictate further investigation. However, one needs all the facts and I just don't have them as of yet.
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Post by Michael on Jan 24, 2007 20:46:44 GMT -5
Here's a something interesting (in theory) but we have to be careful because its coming to the Police as 2nd hand information. Many follow-ups turn up different versions and/or facts so treat this as open ended because I have searched for - but have not found any follow-up to this report therefore I hesitate to jump to any conclusions.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 18, 2007 18:20:12 GMT -5
Here is some additional grist for the theories and speculation mill relating to Hopewell vehicle sightings on the night of March 1, 1932 as well as the general timeline of the kidnapping.
Firstly, from the Princeton Recollector, dated Spring 1977 comes this account by "Doc" Ashton. I am not aware of any police reports relating to this sighting and perhaps others know of one.
"I was up in my brother-in-law's ice cream store on the corner of Greenwood and Railroad Place that night, and there was some of the other fellas in there playin' cards. When I started for home, I opened the door and I heard this car comin' down Greenwood Avenue at a terrific rate of speed, makin' an awful noise. When he comes over the bridge, (it ain't like it is now) there was a bump, an' that car looked like it went up off the ground three feet.
It was either a Packard or an Overland, had a hood on like the old Packards back in the 'twenties had. It was a convertible. It went down to the corner and turned left down East Broad. I firmly believe that baby was in that car. This was about ten or fifteen past nine at night."
If the timing of "Doc" Ashton's account is reasonably accurate, then it seems possible he saw the car containing the individual(s) who actually took the child. This timing could also be supported by the noise heard by Lindbergh around 9 pm and the Kutcher account of the barking dogs heading towards the chicken coop about the same time. (paw prints also found alongside what were believed to be footprints of fleeing kidnappers)
Further, we have Anne Lindbergh's recollection of what she thought was the sound of car tires on the gravel drive around 8:10 pm. Might this have been one of two vehicles involved in the crime, the same one witnessed by Ben Lupica, which contained the ladder and other supplies needed for the abduction? I would think if two vehicles were involved, it would make sense to drop off what was needed, thereby avoiding the lugging of equipment all the way to the house from Featherbed Lane. The vehicle which sped past the Moore's house just after 8:20 pm might well have been the same one heard by Anne outside the Highfields window approximately 12 minutes earlier.
I believe it was Oscar Bush who first determined two vehicles were involved by noting the tire tracks and damaged roadside vegetation alongside Featherbed Lane. Could this have been the place where it had been pre-arranged for the two vehicles to meet in the early evening hours of March 1, to firm up the final stages of the kidnapping plan?
Perhaps such a theory is a bit lacking in meat and potatoes, but there are some other pieces within a few reports I have in mind which might add some credence to it and develop a fuller picture of this scenario. Before going too far down this road, does the above sound plausible and do any immediate "dealbusters" come to mind?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 18, 2007 19:57:00 GMT -5
Joe~ I like the "meat and potatoes" of your post--"Doc" Ashton's description of the speeding car! Can you tell from that which direction the car was headed - the Bronx or the baby's grave site? If the car hit a bump that hard and (seemingly) went three feet in the air, could you conceive of it's being the baby's cause of death, even with it's being a convertible? I recall riding in a car which hit a bump so hard my head hit the top of the car (and I thought I had been killed!) Have always been nagged by the sound of car Anne thought she heard. I, too, have wondered if it may have been delivery of the ladder. Hearing/seeing a speeding car separately by two people is quite interesting. I think it is a #@%*& crying shame that the police didn't pay more heed to Oscar Bush!! For my money he was probably much better at the signs than those incompetent police.
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Post by sue75 on Feb 18, 2007 20:58:23 GMT -5
For Joe:
Some insight into "Ambling" Doc Ashton:
This is from a chapter from Lorena Hickock's (Eleanor Roosevelt's lover?) unpublished life story, obtained from the Franklin D. Roosevelt Library:
"When I arrived in Hopewell on the morning of March 3, some thirty-six hours after the story broke, the police were still searching abandoned farmhouses within a radius of twenty-five miles of the lonely, wind-swept hill on the brow of which, as we sob-sisters used to put it, "the Lone Eagle had built his nest." Murray Becker, an AP photographer, and I hired a car and joined the search. The car was an elderly Dodge sedan, owned and driven by a native named Ashton, who for the duration of the assignment was known to the AP staff as "Ambling" Ashton because under no circumstances would he drive faster than thirty miles an hour.
At thirty miles an hour of course we had no hope of keeping up with the police, so "Moe" and I were forced to go hunting by ourselves. In the course of our travels that afternoon we heard, in a rural speakeasy where we stopped for a beer, about an abandoned house on the Princeton highway..."
"...It was getting toward dusk when we went outside, but we began digging wherever the earth looked as though it had recently been disturbed, while "Ambling" Ashton sat in his car muttering derisively:
"Them's just moles!"
"...Nerves on the part of the AP desk in New York sent me on an adventure one night that cost me my voice for six weeks. A day or two after my arrival in Hopewell, "Ambling" Ashton and I were cruising around when he stopped the car by a farm at the foot of the hill on the side opposite to that up which climbed the driveway up to the Lindbergh house. Police had set up a barricade half a mile from the entrance to the drive, and no reporters had been permitted to go through since the morning after the baby was stolen, when a small group actually got up to the house.
"There's a path up the mountain on this side, " he said casually. "Lindbergh he uses it going in and out when he don't want nobody to see him. You go through this here barnyard --"
"...Slowly and cautiously, with his lights off, Ashton approached the farm at the bottom of the hill and parked his car as far off the road as he could get..."
"...and in "Ambling" Ashton's over-size galoshes I could not feel my way along..."
"...I think the most beautiful landscape I ever saw was that barnyard, with the shadowy outlines of Ashton's car in the background, when we finally stumbled out to it. We tumbled into the car, each took a long pull at the applejack jug, and rode back to our headquarters."
Maybe Doc Ashton kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 18, 2007 22:15:50 GMT -5
Joe, how do you think this car ended up on Greenwood Ave heading South? Do you think it made it all the way through Featherbed Lane?
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Post by rick on Feb 19, 2007 3:56:51 GMT -5
At times it seems as though there were too many sightings of cars, especially green ones, the nite of the snatch? Green ones, Brown ones, Eastbound, Townones? - The clearest car to understand is the brown muddy one that passes the Moore house going SOUTH at 8:25pm--Ellis Parker has that one figured as coming from Highfields?
- But what about the two cars headed NORTH on Hopewell Wertsville road? Whoever reported those was headed towards Hopewell when the two cars nearly forced him off the road?
- Can we tell which direction the car(s) on Featherbed Lane were travelling? I am assuming they are headed EAST toward Cononvers house?
- Can we post a MAP of Hopewell/Mercer County and then try to place the cars onto the MAP going in the right direction? This might help the discussion/
- Where is Rocky Hill? Its not on any map (Breevolt Bollmer)
- Isnt Red Johnson's car a 1924 Green Chysler convertible?
- Can we add CAL's Brown Lincoln and ROUTE HOME to this MAP since he arrives so close after the snatch@8:25pm? Who saw CALs car on the roads around Hopewell?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 19, 2007 4:16:05 GMT -5
Mairi, from "Doc" Ashton's description, the driver of the car would have been heading along East Broad Street in an easterly direction, one which ultimately would have afforded a main connection with roads and highways to get back to the NYC area. At the same time, this path would essentially have been directing him away from the Mt. Rose location along the Hopewell - Princeton Road where the baby's body was found. Perhaps this is another point in favour of the generally increasing belief nowadays that the body was returned to its location sometime after the night of March 1.
I like your point about the baby possibly being injured during the time the car went airborne and came crashing down and it's well worth considering, if this car was involved. These were definitely pre-seat belt days and who knows how the baby would have been secured for safety, if at all during its journey? And yes, I agree that Oscar Bush should have been more effectively utilized and that larger egos on the part of the NJSP and an underestimation of his practical abilities, probably prevailed in writing him off as just another meddling local.
Sue, thanks for the added insight into "Doc." He does sound like someone who was all too keen to immerse himself in the case. Mark Falzini recently sent me a copyrighted chart he assembled, which details many of the vehicle sightings around Hopewell and which includes the following:
Joseph Kuchta reported that on 03/01/32, 10:00 am, a car drove from the road near Ashton Farm, where Kuchta was visiting his brother-in-law, towards Lindbergh’s driveway. Large touring car with curtains drawn. Dark blue body, 2 men, driver having stout face, passenger having long, slim face. Car was driving very slowly toward the Lindbergh’s driveway. The passenger was nudging the driver and both looked toward the Lindbergh estate, passing it very slowly. After passing the driveway, the car picked up speed and drove out of sight.
I think this may well have been the same vehicle sighted by "Doc" Ashton later that evening at ten or fifteen minutes past nine. I also believe that Duane Baker may have been in that car on both occasions. From the investigation into Baker's activities, he was known from time to time to have borrowed a large, old, dark blue, open touring car, which according to Stowe Studley, former Superintendent at 568 West 149th Street, he drove to New Jersey on at least one occasion via the Dykeman Street ferry from NY. Baker is described as 5' 9", 160 lbs., dark blonde hair, blue eyes, thin face. There are some other details regarding my suspicions around Baker which I will add later.
Kevin, I'm not sure of the entire route taken by the car sighted by "Doc" Ashton, but I have to think if it had any connection with the case, then this old touring car exited Featherbed Lane at its WEST entrance where it joins the present day Hopewell - Wertsville Road. From maps, it appears that if the car had exited the east entrance of Featherbed Lane, the driver would simply have proceeded down Hopewell - Amwell Road (Lindbergh Road) and have been able to bypass the centre of Hopewell entirely. I think this may be an important point which helps to further identify the most efficient path of retreat once the car left Featherbed Lane. And perhaps this is why the Conovers did not notice the vehicle leaving Featherbed Lane after the kidnapping - because it left FL at the opposite entrance to where they lived..
If "Doc" Ashton is correct and the car did contain the baby, then it appears that by going south on Greenwood Avenue and turning (left) east along East Broad Street, the driver may have been attempting to get back to an intersection of some general bearing to the kidnapping party, mainly the corner of Hopewell - Amwell Road and Hopewell - Rocky Hill Road. From here, the connection to NYC could be made. Interestingly, it is at this intersection where Amandus Hochmuth lived and where the old man claimed to have seen Hauptmann's car rounding the corner and head towards the Lindbergh estate in the "forenoon" of March 1.
Also, we see the driver of the touring car sighted by "Doc" Ashton apparently misjudged the railroad bridge on Greenwood Avenue and which obviously contained some kind of hump, sending the car temporarily airborne. This points towards the occupants being in a hurry and not familiar with local road conditions.
More next weekend.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 19, 2007 7:16:28 GMT -5
Yes, Mr Baker
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 19, 2007 7:52:32 GMT -5
... and his little basement card room.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 19, 2007 17:16:59 GMT -5
Joe~ Thanx so much for the additional post on Doc Ashton. It's also helpful to know the car's direction. I'm not prepared to rule out the neighbor's barking dogs,as it may relate to the kidnapping time. And the paw prints relationship to the possible route of the perps. They were headed for the chicken coop which I've read was at or near the Lingbergh property. While we're on canines, I'm not overly impressed that Wagoosh didn't bark.(and how do we know that he didn't bark and then just leave off and no one remembered) How much a dog barks can be different according to the perspective of the one being around, it in my view. If it's more annoying to some they might say he "barks at everything". While at the same time Lindbergh said something along the lines of not being able to always count on his barking. Sue~Your post on Ashton is quite interesting, as well. I'll need to go back and review the timing the muddy car was seen. If LB used that "barnyard" route when he didn't want to be seen, then do you suppose the kidnappers had found and used it , as well? The belief that they had scoped out the property for a while may suggest they spotted that, too.(?) If so could this be the car that brought the ladder and may even relate to the driveway sound Anne thought she heard(?) Rick~ Your idea about the car sighting map is TERRIFIC! I think Michael had some thoughts along those lines, too. You all are smart enough to figure out how to do this. Get busy! . Do you know if the Ashton described car resembles the abandoned car found in the Bronx? When you get the map going will you PLEASE add the chicken coop to it. Am so in need of knowing it's location to the LB property I agree that Baker may bear somemore scrutiny. You had some good focus on him awhile back. The fact that he AND his wife suddenly diappeared still hangs in my mind. If anyone can point me in the direction of the start of the Thomas Rice discussion, I certainly would appreciate it. Have searched for it and have found some remarks here and there, but somehow missed the starter point of that.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 19, 2007 19:16:05 GMT -5
Rick~Your observation about so MANY strange car sightings triggered this thought for me. Based upon the feeling of many that something of a gang was involved and connected up with sightings of sometimes one person in a car,sometimes two and sometimes three, what's to say there were not two, even three strange cars connected to the crime? ( May also account for some of the different color cars[?]) There we have the early in the day sightings, plus the later time of day and I believe there were 3 in a car asking directions to the LB house. Even allowing for some of these sightings as being unrelated, I think it could still leave right many cars of interest. Do you recall the description of Condon meeting up with someone near one of the cems afterward-going up to another car and speaking with someone? I'm of a mind we might as well throw the description of that car in the pot, too . What do you think?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 20, 2007 7:41:42 GMT -5
Joe, do you believe a heavy touring car with little ground clearance could actually make it all the way through Featherbed La at that time of year?
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Post by Michael on Feb 21, 2007 21:52:38 GMT -5
Here is a map Rick sent me that is quite helpful when discussing this topic especially: I haven't come across any Police Report mentioning Ashton's account. Of course that could mean I just haven't come across it yet. Also, many people were afraid to get involved and kept things they saw to themselves because they didn't want to get killed or lose their jobs etc. Or it could be something which developed over time - who knows? It doesn't appear that he mentioned this to the Reporter he was driving around either.... Just want to inject the fact that people who generally drive slow seem to notice people proceeding at normal speeds as going too fast. Maybe he's seeing this car go airborne for just this reason when in fact it was just going faster then he would have if he were driving? No doubt this is just speculation but something I always consider if I know someone generally drives fast or slow then tells me a story concerning another driver's speed. Anyway - this is good (new) information and I thank both Joe and Sue for posting on it.
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2007 6:36:17 GMT -5
Did I ever post this before? This would be more of a strange "sighting" minus the vehicle. Of course I can't imagine one of the crew hanging around after the "snatch" but what I find interesting is the subject - Red's roomate. Anyone ever suspect him before?
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Post by rick3 on Feb 23, 2007 11:26:02 GMT -5
Hi Michael--Well, I certainly think this is an interesting clew to investigate. Which roomate? I never saw William Boland or Heimo Hatsu's photos? Its even difficult to read the signature of the writer: is it a Lt. Redfern? Red Johnson, inspite of all the tall tales he told which presumably checked out remains very high on my Persons of Interest list: - I concur with the suspicions of Bob Mills as to Red's travels and phonecalls to Betty on the afternoon and evening of March 1st. See Ronelles Hoax Board for May 25, 2005:
disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=141545;article=31445;show_parent=1
- Red had at least 3 variable or floating alibis for the nite of Charlies dissapperarance: movies/ left for West Hartford and drove around with the Junges until 11:15? to where?
- Later on it was rumored that Margaite recanted her alibi for Red?
- Red's green sedan is spotted all over the day/nite of the snatch around Hopewell and at the Perth Amboy outerbridge to SI?
- Condon claims on his Jafsies House of Facts that he enters the fray because he doesnt want Red falsely accused? Right? Sounds alot like the sob storey of CJ?
- After Red was "cleared of all charges" his bail was set at $50,000 the highest ever known for an illegal alien? Odd number keeps popping up?
- Red was interviewed at Highfields by CAL as late as 19 May after similar interviews of Violet Sharpe? Presumably Violet saw Red bring Margarite home at 11:15pm?
- Red was not deported voluntarily until after Violets funeral?
- Could you post the remaining pages of Mark Falzinis paper in the Members Archives: In the Footsteps of Red Johnson:
lindberghkidnap.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=mark&action=display&thread=1145814250
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Post by Michael on Feb 23, 2007 18:00:23 GMT -5
Honestly I have never seen pictures and if I did then I didn't take note of who I was looking at. I am sure some exist at the archives so next time down I'll see if I can get a couple scanned in....
Mark's paper on Red Johnson is copy-righted. I only have permission to post what is there. Since Richard Sloan's Bronx Tour is coming up and both the Research Guide and the Red Johnson work are going to be handed out I don't want to ruin that. I know people are very excited for this tour and these added bonuses. Are you going?
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Post by Michael on Feb 24, 2007 19:44:08 GMT -5
Here's all I have been able to find on Ashton (so far):
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 25, 2007 8:54:57 GMT -5
Mairi, I also think the barking dogs and the paw prints found alongside what were believed to be the fleeing kidnappers footprints may be significant. I also vote to pardon Wahgoosh for not being more of an official watchdog, (not my job ) given that he was at the opposite end of the house resting or sleeping in his basket on a very windy and noisy night. Apparently he began barking and yelping constantly after the house was invaded by troopers and investigators, but can you really blame him based on the comparitively stable and idyllic conditions he would have been used to there? Kevin, I'm only a bit familiar with the weight and ground clearance of mid-1920's touring cars in general, but I'm sure that other factors like tire selection and low end torque would come into play and that all American cars would have to be prepared to negotiate the very common muddy road conditions of the day. Here are a few sideviews of a 1920 Packard and a 1925 Overland as well as a 1930 Dodge for ground clearance comparison: (top to bottom) Michael, re the "Doc" Ashton account in the 1977 Princeton Recollector, thanks for posting what you have read on anything Ashton in the Hopewell area. The Charles Ashton in the report you show had driven a taxi for seven years. I wonder if he was a retired doctor, hence the "Doc," or even moonlighting in the Depression. It may well have been a common name there in 1932 and I know from Mark Falzini's vehicle sightings report, there was an Ashton Farm just down the road from the Lindberghs. As Charles Ashton lived at 14 Seminary Avenue, it sounds as though he may have been trying to sell a parcel of family-owned land to Lindbergh. Your point on the actual speed of the car which "Doc" Ashton sighted travelling down Greenwood Avenue and turning onto East Broad Street is well taken. From Sue's account of the woman reporter who traipsed around the Lindbergh property with him, he was definitely a slow and steady driver. Still, to comment that the car he saw that night went airborne to me is significant and speaks of someone not familiar with that stretch of road and the bridge that crossed the rail line at the north end of town. I really think there's something to his account.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 25, 2007 11:46:43 GMT -5
Joe, I have always wondered about the escape route, whether it be two cars or one. Obviously Featherbed Lane makes sense from a map perspective. But Featherbed is more like a farm access route than a road. I wonder if anyone wishing to get out of Dodge in a hurry would risk such a path. It is known from local accounts, such as the Moore's, that getting stuck on that path was quite a common occurrence. Even if someone in a road car attempted it, they would be in low gear all the way, so I don't see it as an expedient action.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 25, 2007 12:17:26 GMT -5
Kevin, I wouldn't want to wager anything on a car having traversed the entire length of Featherbed Lane to get out via the west entrance onto Hopewell - Wertsville Road on that night. I just don't know enough about the conditions of that road during March 1932. For all I know it could have been an easier route going that way. Today's Featherbed Lane has a number of houses along its western portion but I don't know if this is indicative of a better road back in 1932. It would certainly help to speak to someone knowledgeable about what things were like back in the day.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 25, 2007 14:11:17 GMT -5
I know what you are saying Joe. I just have a hard time with this escape route as every mention I have read or heard about it gives me the impression that it was no better than it is today. The Conover account strongly reinforces that. Added to that, one has to take into account the need for a quick getaway. Even if you could traverse Featherbed without getting stuck, it would be slow going and I don't see the advantage of heading to Hopewell Wertsville Road.
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Post by Michael on Feb 25, 2007 17:16:26 GMT -5
I think we must look at Featherbed from all angles and then judge for ourselves...
No doubt this road was in bad shape. It was also rarely traveled by.
Do we conclude it was used by mistake or by design? Did the Conovers see the car coming...or going? If coming and having almost been stuck would they risk using the road again after the fact? Were there two cars and were they both on Featherbed?
My point here being we could have multiple sightings of cars in different places that were both connected to the crime. Exactly where they were seen doesn't necessarily mean they drove the straightest point in order to get there either.
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Post by rick3 on Feb 25, 2007 18:53:57 GMT -5
Hi Michael....I think one of our many car-spotters saw two cars going North out of Hopewell on Hopewell-Wertsville Road? If so, then maybe these turned onto Featherbed lane going East wards and the Conovers saw the lead cars headlightes with the second car under blackout right behind. The tracker guy Ol' Oscar Bush said he saw two car tracks on Feather bed.
Its hard to tell where the car Lupica saw going SOUTH on Lindbergh Road was headed so early but The Princeton Register Map shows car tracks off the Lindbergh driveway right where the ladder/chisel was found? This saves the kidnap team a ton of lugging the ladder over rocky fields at nite in the wind?
I intend to send Richard Sloan my $60 bucks on Friday March 1st!
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 26, 2007 8:46:43 GMT -5
It's all fine and well to keep all options alive and juggle a thousand balls in the air if you are content with never getting anywhere. But, frankly, it would be more constructive to making actual headway in this already overly complicated case, if we could make just a few determinations. It sometimes feels as if I am trying to build a house on a foundation that keeps moving around. How difficult can it be to determine the viability of traversing the entire length of Featherbed Lane? I can remember all too well the constant arguments regarding the mud (or lack of) in the nursery. Well if it was that muddy, how in earth could a road car with narrow tires make all the way from one end of Featherbed to Wertsville Rd. And , given that Featherbed parallels the mountain and it is March, how could the lights of this car(s) not be seen by everyone in the valley? I can't believe that with all the police, reporters, and various others clamoring around Highfields after the kidnap, that no one reported the condition and viability of travelling the length of that road. Added to that, I would also consider what advantage such a route would provide. Maybe someone could expound on the advantage of crawling along a muddy path with the ever present possibility of getting stuck to arrive at Hopewell Wertsville Rd. Where does that get you if you are heading North, South, East, or West? Hopewell Amwell seems to be a quicker and more advantageous route no matter how you look at it.
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Post by Michael on Feb 26, 2007 10:26:56 GMT -5
We have indeed been over this topic many times over but I am of the opinion that each time usually reveals something to me to consider that I hadn't thought about previously. I also tend to encourage discussion because, although I do have a personal theory, I do not think its untouchable.
I usually debate as I was taught how to... It doesn't always mean the position I appear to take is a direct reflection of my actual personal position. In fact sometimes I try to test my own theories by attempting to raise doubts about them then see what other points our board's discussions can bring about - other pro's or con's that brain-storming tends to bring about.
In short, if someone wants to know my exact position the best way is to ask me point-blank.
Anyway, Agent Sisk referred to Featherbed Lane as an unimproved rough country road. Lt. Keaton, although it could be argued there was proof of withholding evidence by the NJSP from the FBI, clearly stated that he did not believe Featherbed was used. Basically he was telling Sisk the escape did not occur from Featherbed.
The FBI Summary report refers to Featherbed as having signs posted which say "Road Impassable - Drive at your own risk." It's hard to say where this information comes from either from actual investigation or by newspaper reports but its something to consider when applying the Conover's eyewitness accounts who insinuate the condition was such that a car could get stuck.
I personally believe Lupica saw a Confederate @ 6PM. The Conover's saw a car between 630-7PM. From the reports it appeared to get stuck after pulling in this lane.
Does that mean it was the same car Lupica saw?
Had it driven in to turn around only to be seen at that moment? Had this car driven its total length after getting "unstuck" where the Conovers saw it or had it simply remained where it was waiting? Could the car negotiate this road without lights? If not then it was there past 9PM when the Conovers went to bed having not seen it leave or proceed further.
Exactly what did Bush see? When we refer to his eyewitness accounts what are we relying on?
I personally do not feel Featherbed was driven its total length at any time. I believe the car the Conovers saw was involved and pulled into this section merely to turn around and/or to standby off the main road. I believe if anyone attempted to negotiate this entire length they would have gotten bogged down and stuck.
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Post by rick3 on Feb 26, 2007 11:27:00 GMT -5
Michael, well i was just trying to account for the cars reported going NORTH? The only way they could get near to Highfield's was on Featherbed.
Not to play Devils Advocate(?) but none of the accounts including that of Ol Oscar Bush says anything about Featherbed Lane being totally impassible? If it is, then the last thing anyone wants to try to do in the dark on a muddy impassible country lane is to try and turn around?!@#$%^& Thats a prescription for disaster. eg which end is impassible?
Maybe all the folks would like to see the position of the car facing East on Feather bed Lane shown Princeton Recollector Map or birdseye view drawing I emailed you last weeks? Its from the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin 1932:
"The 524 Acre Estate with Various Points That have Bearing on the Case." The house is about 4 miles from Hopewell and 10 miles from Princeton. The ladder is made in 3 sections and was placed against the nurserywindow Tuesday nite. The shutters of this window that had been warped had not been locked. A man's footprints were found on the ground beneath the window. A short distance away they were joined by other foot prints., supposedly those of a woman. The ladder was found in the undergrowth a few feet from the house. Automobile tracks marked the ground. The drawing also shows the roads around the place. In the center of Featherbed Lane is indicated the parked car seen by Harry Conover, a neighbor, the night of the kidnapping"" The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin
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