jack7
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Mar 16, 2017 9:36:39 GMT -5
Post by jack7 on Mar 16, 2017 9:36:39 GMT -5
". . . the motive became in some minds such a certainty that when given a clue which could have solved the case, they refused to even consider it."
Vincent Bugliosi - Curt Gentry Re: Tate/LaBianca murders
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Mar 16, 2017 16:05:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 16:05:08 GMT -5
well amy I never saw real proof that anyone else was involved. to many people dilly dally and go in circles researching this case. I climbed a replica ladder same weight and measurements at the very spot its very doable. it was possible that one man could have done the whole ball of wax. one thing I did learn is the ladder when first built split at the very spot like the original. keraga thinks it was a design flaw putting the dowel hole close to the end instead of to much weight coming down like a lot of authors claim. You mention Keraga and the ladder he built. I have been looking through the Ladder/Wood threads on this board to find posts about or made by him. I see that Michael posted a report Kelvin Keraga did on the ladder. I shall have to read that. I don't have a good understanding of wood and building things with it so any help I can get from a report will be a big plus for me. The only knowledge I had about the Lindbergh baby kidnapping was what I read in Anne's diaries so my thinking was limited to what she wrote. I eventually did buy a book on the kidnapping so I could better understand what happened. I purchased a used copy of Kidnap by George Waller and read that. I had no agenda when I read that book. I just wanted to know more about the crime. I will be honest and tell you that the book left me with lots of questions. One of the first things I noted was how could Hauptmann have known the Lindberghs were at the house on Tuesday, March 1 if he had no inside or outside help? If he is all alone in this, how did he know to go to Hopewell that night and that the family would be there??? This is an old question I realize but when you read about this kidnapping and that Hauptmann lived all the way in the Bronx, this question just jumps out at you. Did you ever wonder about this?
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Letters
Mar 16, 2017 16:31:57 GMT -5
Post by hurtelable on Mar 16, 2017 16:31:57 GMT -5
Just a couple of questions about that replica ladder. What was your approximate height and weight when you climbed it? What were the spacings between the rungs on that replica ladder - 19 inches? Were you able to gain entry into that nursery window from the ladder placed to the right of that window? Were you able to get inside that room without knocking over the items that were supposed to have been on top of the bureau and without making a loud noise? Were you able to get out of the nursery room back on the ladder with a package weighing about 30 pounds? Were you able to get down the ladder with that package without the ladder splitting and without falling to the ground when the ladder broke? And did you leave any fingerprints on the ladder when you attempted this herculean feat? As you well know, the trooper who testified at the Hauptmann trial for the prosecution (Sweeney) admitted that he never accomplished all those things in his experiments. That's because it would have required superhuman powers.
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Letters
Mar 16, 2017 16:54:09 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Mar 16, 2017 16:54:09 GMT -5
Just a couple of questions about that replica ladder. What was your approximate height and weight when you climbed it? What were the spacings between the rungs on that replica ladder - 19 inches? Were you able to gain entry into that nursery window from the ladder placed to the right of that window? Here is a picture of Steve on that ladder. It's one of my prized possessions and you won't find this one at the NJSP Archives!:
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jack7
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Mar 16, 2017 17:20:56 GMT -5
Post by jack7 on Mar 16, 2017 17:20:56 GMT -5
Amy:
The only reason the crime was on Tuesday night was because Anna Hauptmann was working and not home to wonder where Richard was. Everything else about "why Tuesday?" is speculation, and just that - speculation.
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Mar 18, 2017 8:34:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 8:34:16 GMT -5
Amy: The only reason the crime was on Tuesday night was because Anna Hauptmann was working and not home to wonder where Richard was. Everything else about "why Tuesday?" is speculation, and just that - speculation. I can appreciate your theory regarding why it was on a Tuesday night if it is Hauptmann on that ladder that night. My question, when giving consideration to Hauptmann being a lone wolf with absolutely no inside or outside source of information still remains; how did he know the Lindberghs would be there on that Tuesday night? Is he just guessing or what? The Lindberghs didn't live at the Hopewell house. They only visited on weekends and sometimes they missed some of those.
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Mar 18, 2017 9:37:21 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 18, 2017 9:37:21 GMT -5
thanks mike I lost some weight since then maybe I can go through the window this time
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Post by hurtelable on Mar 18, 2017 12:26:44 GMT -5
Come on, Steve, stop fooling yourself. The feats which Wilentz ascribed to Hauptmann - climbing that poorly designed ladder of two pieces up to the right of that second floor nursery window, obtaining entry into the nursery without barely making a noise and without knocking over any of the items on the bureau, then snatching the child, going out the window while carrying him (a bulky 30+ pounds), getting back on the ladder, then descending to ground level, all without leaving footprints or fingerprints anywhere nor any signs of a fall when the ladder supposedly broke - are NOT doable, not even by an Olympian gymnast.
Again, I refer you to Trooper Sweeney's testimony at the Hauptmann trial, where he admitted that he could NOT accomplish all of this in his experiments with a replica ladder.
There is no way that a jury with a modicum of intelligence and courage would have convicted Hauptmann of murder. What should have been done is to remand Hauptmann back to New York to face charges of extortion, possession of stolen property, and illegal possession of a weapon. In addition, he could have been charged in federal court with hoarding gold certificates.
No, I don't like Hauptmann. But he should have been convicted for crimes he DID commit, not paid with his a life for a crime he didn't commit.
And if no other murder suspects could be found in the Lindbergh kidnap case, you just have to concede that some crimes, even homicides, can't be solved and probably never will.
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jack7
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Mar 18, 2017 14:34:58 GMT -5
Post by jack7 on Mar 18, 2017 14:34:58 GMT -5
A jury did convict Hauptmann. The case is long closed and the only ones still looking are independent true crime lovers such as yourself and there's nothing new since 1935 except to more discredit BRH.
And, Amy, I don't think Richard knew any more than where the Lindberghs lived and where the nursery was from simple observation, so he went there on a Tuesday when he could get over there. He had no idea they wouldn't be there. The crime was his own idea and the only possibility of help was that someone else might have laundered money for him. Even that would be risky because it was such a hot crime. So we don't know some things, but we do know how they turned out.
Lindbergh said it in juxt, it was just bad luck of the draw for him.
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Letters
Mar 18, 2017 15:32:18 GMT -5
Post by lightningjew on Mar 18, 2017 15:32:18 GMT -5
And what was Hauptmann planning to do with CAL Jr. once he had him? Is there any discrediting evidence that's come to light that he rented a place to keep him? In any case, he'd need others to help him care for the child. Who were these people? Or was the plan all along to kill CAL Jr.? The most high-profile child in the world? Was Hauptmann out of his mind to take all that on himself?
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Mar 18, 2017 17:24:31 GMT -5
xjd likes this
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 17:24:31 GMT -5
In 1936, Samuel Leibowitz talked his way into being taken on briefly as Hauptmann's defense attorney. Leibowitz was positive he would be able to get Hauptmann to confess. He never did get that confession. What he did get was Hauptmann's hypothetical version of how he might have done the kidnapping. Here is some of what Hauptmann told Leibowitz.
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Letters
Mar 18, 2017 18:34:26 GMT -5
Post by kate1 on Mar 18, 2017 18:34:26 GMT -5
Has there been any discussion anywhere about the book by Jerry Kroth?
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Letters
Mar 18, 2017 20:44:45 GMT -5
Post by Michael on Mar 18, 2017 20:44:45 GMT -5
Michael, where is the letter to Dr. Hudson from "JJ Faulkner?" I see a letter in the JJ Nosovitsky thread from July 14, 2014 but it's signed "Jhon." I wasn't aware of such a letter. Is it somewhere else? Joe - I haven't forgotten your question, but I did forget about that "other" communication with Dr. Hudson. I searched in a few places but came up empty. If it exists then my guess is that it is in the Hoffman Collection. I plan on going back to the Archives in 2018 for at least a month to cover certain things and tie up some loose ends so I'll make finding that one of my goals unless someone else posts/links it before I do. And what was Hauptmann planning to do with CAL Jr. once he had him? Is there any discrediting evidence that's come to light that he rented a place to keep him? Are you talking about the "Lynch" receipt? It was debunked about 15 years ago because both Lynch and Jones actually existed and lived nearby the place they were attempting to rent. Has there been any discussion anywhere about the book by Jerry Kroth? I never read this book. If you have please post on it. I for one am interested to hear about it and what you think.
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Letters
Mar 19, 2017 2:15:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by lightningjew on Mar 19, 2017 2:15:07 GMT -5
Right, that Lynch thing was debunked, so there's no real evidence that Hauptmann had any sort of plan to keep and care for a child. Was he going to bring him home to his wife? "Oh, I found this kid who happens to bear a striking resemblance to the same kid the whole country is looking for. Nothing to worry about though; I just need you to take care of him for 2-4 days..." I guess Hauptmann's plan was just to murder the child in cold blood then, since he had no plans to take care of him. But is there any evidence that Hauptmann was that kind of psychopath, targeting the most high profile people in the world?
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jack7
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Mar 19, 2017 2:26:04 GMT -5
Post by jack7 on Mar 19, 2017 2:26:04 GMT -5
Hurtelable:
Because of the bones being spread about, and the condition of the skin on the face of the body, it seems most likely that the body was in the same place since the night of the kidnapping. Recall how the skin darkened once it was exposed to the light and air - that would have happened if it had been moved also. So unlikely as it seems, the body was left in that slightly into the woods spot during all of the ransom negotiations and which if found, of course, would have put an end to them.
It seems BRH planned to kill Charlie from the start and probably did do it in the nursery. I'd suspect hitting him with a gun because that's the only way he could have dealt with exposure - just shoot everybody and ransom the baby to his Grandma Elizabeth. She would have kept her mouth shut and paid the money too.
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Letters
Mar 19, 2017 4:24:52 GMT -5
Post by kate1 on Mar 19, 2017 4:24:52 GMT -5
The book by Kroth is on Amazon kindle. I have read it and because I'm a retired psychotherapist I enjoyed it...its full of Jungian stuff. His take on Hauptmann was very definitive. He absolutely feels it's absurd to believe him guilty and gives his reasoning. The book is titled "The Lindbergh Kidnapping" but there is a lot about CAL's personality too.
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Letters
Mar 19, 2017 6:19:04 GMT -5
Post by hurtelable on Mar 19, 2017 6:19:04 GMT -5
Amy, where did you get that article from, where Hauptmann purportedly tells how he would have done the crime? I am skeptical of its legitimacy, because it is almost a confession of sorts. Who is the anonymous "source" being cited? Leibowitz?
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Letters
Mar 19, 2017 7:21:09 GMT -5
Post by xjd on Mar 19, 2017 7:21:09 GMT -5
In 1936, Samuel Leibowitz talked his way into being taken on briefly as Hauptmann's defense attorney. Leibowitz was positive he would be able to get Hauptmann to confess. He never did get that confession. What he did get was Hauptmann's hypothetical version of how he might have done the kidnapping. Here is some of what Hauptmann told Leibowitz. View Attachmentthat is an awesome find! what intrigues me is that is a classic detective interrogation technique, get the suspect to tell how they would imagine "someone else" would commit the crime (the OJ Simpson book "If I Did It" is this idea taken to extreme!) makes me wonder because there was a person who did "get sweet" with a female staff, Red Johnson.
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Mar 19, 2017 10:12:57 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 10:12:57 GMT -5
The book by Kroth is on Amazon kindle. I have read it and because I'm a retired psychotherapist I enjoyed it...its full of Jungian stuff. His take on Hauptmann was very definitive. He absolutely feels it's absurd to believe him guilty and gives his reasoning. The book is titled "The Lindbergh Kidnapping" but there is a lot about CAL's personality too. I have not read Kroth's book yet but I have watched his you tube video about his book and the theory that he bases his book on. He does believe that Hauptmann is completely innocent, as you noted, Katie. For anyone who wants to look at this angle, I will link Kroth's you tube video here. It is almost an hour long! I will also link the google book sample for his book too, if someone would rather read parts of it instead or along with viewing Kroth's video. Video: youtu.be/HjWaFm9VSJkBook Sample: books.google.com/books?id=Icxd52-mcwQC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Lindbergh+Kidnapping:+mobs,+mass+psychology+and+myth&source=bl&ots=dT-jp4Dyf-&sig=xftOyvEU2my_iEpdLbsiVEdw5Sk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwt7uErOHSAhWM5yYKHcE4DuwQ6AEIcTAG#v=onepage&q=Lindbergh%20Kidnapping%3A%20mobs%2C%20mass%20psychology%20and%20myth&f=false
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Mar 19, 2017 10:31:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 10:31:25 GMT -5
]Amy, where did you get that article from, where Hauptmann purportedly tells how he would have done the crime? I am skeptical of its legitimacy, because it is almost a confession of sorts. Who is the anonymous "source" being cited? Leibowitz? Hurt, That article is a piece of a much larger newspaper article. I found it quite a while ago when I was looking into how Leibowitz became attached to Hauptmann's defense. I had read Gov. Hoffman's Liberty piece on Leibowitz and so I did some searching around. As to the source who was leaking this cell "confession" of sorts, my guess is Leibowitz himself to a reporter. Leibowitz did a daily commentary for the news during the Hauptmann trial. Leibowitz positively thought Hauptmann to be guilty and was absolutely certain that he would be able to "break" Hauptmann and gets a confession from him. Perhaps he was saving his reputation by providing something that no one else was able to get from Hauptmann - his "If I would have done this crime" story. I think it should be noted that Leibowitz did believe Hauptmann was guilty but that he did not do the crime alone. Here is a short video of Samuel Leibowitz commenting on Hauptmann. www.britishpathe.com/video/hauptmanns-new-layer
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Mar 19, 2017 10:54:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 10:54:54 GMT -5
In 1936, Samuel Leibowitz talked his way into being taken on briefly as Hauptmann's defense attorney. Leibowitz was positive he would be able to get Hauptmann to confess. He never did get that confession. What he did get was Hauptmann's hypothetical version of how he might have done the kidnapping. Here is some of what Hauptmann told Leibowitz. View Attachmentthat is an awesome find! what intrigues me is that is a classic detective interrogation technique, get the suspect to tell how they would imagine "someone else" would commit the crime (the OJ Simpson book "If I Did It" is this idea taken to extreme!) makes me wonder because there was a person who did "get sweet" with a female staff, Red Johnson. Thanks, xjd. I was intrigued by it also. And I agree, it is like Simpson's "If I Did It" piece. I like that you bring out that point about "getting sweet" with one of the females who are close to the family/child. Red Johnson certainly knew enough about the family's activities, the Hopewell House, and Charlie's whereabouts to have been a real asset to anyone planning this kidnap. I also found Hauptmann's comment about keeping the child at a nearby farmhouse interesting. I know that this idea has figured into theories about the crime and the possibility of a local connection to the kidnapping. Maybe he was doing what Condon so often did, mixing a bit of truth into his comments. I thought others might find it interesting to read.
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Letters
Mar 19, 2017 13:19:55 GMT -5
Post by hurtelable on Mar 19, 2017 13:19:55 GMT -5
]Amy, where did you get that article from, where Hauptmann purportedly tells how he would have done the crime? I am skeptical of its legitimacy, because it is almost a confession of sorts. Who is the anonymous "source" being cited? Leibowitz? Hurt, That article is a piece of a much larger newspaper article. I found it quite a while ago when I was looking into how Leibowitz became attached to Hauptmann's defense. I had read Gov. Hoffman's Liberty piece on Leibowitz and so I did some searching around. As to the source who was leaking this cell "confession" of sorts, my guess is Leibowitz himself to a reporter. Leibowitz did a daily commentary for the news during the Hauptmann trial. Leibowitz positively thought Hauptmann to be guilty and was absolutely certain that he would be able to "break" Hauptmann and gets a confession from him. Perhaps he was saving his reputation by providing something that no one else was able to get from Hauptmann - his "If I would have done this crime" story. I think it should be noted that Leibowitz did believe Hauptmann was guilty but that he did not do the crime alone. Here is a short video of Samuel Leibowitz commenting on Hauptmann. www.britishpathe.com/video/hauptmanns-new-layer(1) What specific newspaper dd that article come from? Was it a wire service story or an exclusive in one newspaper? (2) If Leibowitz was the source of that leak, shame on him! He violated the ethical principle of attorney-client confidentiality - assuming that he and Hauptmann had such a relationship at the time Hauptmann supposedly told him those things.
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Mar 19, 2017 14:42:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 14:42:49 GMT -5
(1) What specific newspaper dd that article come from? Was it a wire service story or an exclusive in one newspaper? (2) If Leibowitz was the source of that leak, shame on him! He violated the ethical principle of attorney-client confidentiality - assuming that he and Hauptmann had such a relationship at the time Hauptmann supposedly told him those things. (1) The story appeared in the Montreal Gazette on February 20, 1936. The story is coming out of Trenton, NJ. (2) As you will see, Leibowitz had quit as Hauptmann's defense attorney before he gave the interview in Trenton. I am linking the newspaper below. news.google.com/newspapers?id=cb4tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xpgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6558%2C2314087
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Mar 20, 2017 8:57:23 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 8:57:23 GMT -5
im not fooling myself I don't know what sweeny was talking about but I was there with my own eyes that you can enter the nursery with that ladder. coming down is another story that's why I think hqauptman fell. but it can be done.
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Mar 20, 2017 8:59:47 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 8:59:47 GMT -5
hi amy I have a lot of articles pertaining to leibowitzs interview with Hauptman. he tried like hell to get him to confess. he was a top lawyer in new York and later became a judge.
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Mar 20, 2017 9:03:51 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 9:03:51 GMT -5
Just a couple of questions about that replica ladder. What was your approximate height and weight when you climbed it? What were the spacings between the rungs on that replica ladder - 19 inches? Were you able to gain entry into that nursery window from the ladder placed to the right of that window? Here is a picture of Steve on that ladder. It's one of my prized possessions and you won't find this one at the NJSP Archives!:
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Mar 20, 2017 9:07:19 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 9:07:19 GMT -5
mike kel built it by hand and had everything the same including the spaces and built it with the dowl holes the same. I believe you had to be 180 or lower to climb to the top. I was over 200 pounds and I felt shaky near the top. im 5ft 10 inches tall. they wouldn't let us go through the window but the other guy who weighs less could have. I also have a picture of me in hauptmans attic sweating to death
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Mar 20, 2017 9:12:07 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 9:12:07 GMT -5
amy that's a good question but police never could connect anyone to Hauptman that would have told him. we can point the finger to a lot of people but you need proof. they thought violet had something to do with it but did Hauptman know her?
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Mar 20, 2017 9:16:53 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 9:16:53 GMT -5
(1) What specific newspaper dd that article come from? Was it a wire service story or an exclusive in one newspaper? (2) If Leibowitz was the source of that leak, shame on him! He violated the ethical principle of attorney-client confidentiality - assuming that he and Hauptmann had such a relationship at the time Hauptmann supposedly told him those things. (1) The story appeared in the Montreal Gazette on February 20, 1936. The story is coming out of Trenton, NJ. (2) As you will see, Leibowitz had quit as Hauptmann's defense attorney before he gave the interview in Trenton. I am linking the newspaper below. news.google.com/newspapers?id=cb4tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xpgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6558%2C2314087
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Mar 20, 2017 9:18:06 GMT -5
Post by wolfman666 on Mar 20, 2017 9:18:06 GMT -5
amy not to change the subject I know you asked if Hauptman was called dick by anyone, it seems when I read a transcript of police interviews with people he worked with they seem to call him dick
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