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Post by Michael on May 31, 2016 5:35:57 GMT -5
I know that Hauptmann was beaten by the police which was nasty enough but what Else describes happened to her father sounds almost unbelievable. Thanks for the correction Amy. Mark is right and I got them mixed up. Red did praise how well he was treated in Newark. Unfortunately, some Police would "rough up" suspects. Like I've said before, it depended upon the individual moral compass to what degree this would occur - not just in cases where someone was beaten up but in selling information, fudging reports, or denying the existence of and/or framing evidence. Take Special Agent Sisk, for example, he saw Hauptmann getting lumped up, was totally against that tactic and kept his men away from the situation - but did nothing to assist Hauptmann. There's also a story that Jung told how Police had threatened to kill him and dump his body ... but I had better find the material before I screw it up like I just did with Red below.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 9:21:53 GMT -5
I know that Hauptmann was beaten by the police which was nasty enough but what Else describes happened to her father sounds almost unbelievable. Thanks for the correction Amy. Mark is right and I got them mixed up. Red did praise how well he was treated in Newark. Actually, it seems that it is Red Johnson who is not correct in stating that Hartford police treated him the worst. I read over Red Johnson's Adventure series this morning. He did this series in April of 1932. His treatment by the various police agencies was still very fresh in his mind. Here is what Red said in 1932. The following quote is from Chapter 10 of the adventure series. These are Red's words: "Well to get back to my story, after I had been in Newark two weeks, word suddenly came from Jersey City that they had some new clues and wanted me there for questioning, so to Jersey City I went. So far as I could see they didn't have anything new at all. I guess they just wanted to horn in on the publicity. And I got worse treatment in Jersey City than anywhere else." (bolding is mine) Jersey City, not Newark, not Hartford and not the Feds. Maybe by the time Red was being quoted for that Norwegian newspaper and sharing his custody stories with his daughter he no longer remembered correctly which agency was hardest on him??? In that same Adventure article Red also relates that the Jersey City police were the ones who swooped down on his brother Fred Johnson in Brooklyn. Two Jersey City police and two police from Brooklyn's 86th Street Station grabbed Fred right out of his bed. They also seized another girl in the same apartment building who Fred knew. These same officers also went to the home of Fred's girlfriend on Ditmus Ave. in Brooklyn and picked her up. Fred's room was ransacked by the police, turning everything upside down. Fred and the two girls ended up in Jersey City for questioning. Fred was put through a thorough examination. In the morning the two girls were released but Fred was held for the immigration authorities because of his status in America. Fred ended up released on $1,000 bail pending a decision on his case. I hear what you are saying and I know that the way police interrogated suspects in the 1930's was not regulated like it is today. Red Johnson must have told Else that the scars on his upper body came from his handling by the American police. The cuts, the special cell and the water dripping on Red's head sound more like torture methods. Yet when you read his "Adventure Series" article on his handling by police it doesn't compare to what Else was told by her father. I hope you can find the Jung information and share it with the board. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You didn't screw anything up. With the overwhelming amount of information you have in your head, it is easy to not recall something accurately without going over the material first. I have certainly done this with things I have posted and I am sure it is true of others. No big deal!
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Post by Michael on May 31, 2016 18:57:36 GMT -5
I hope you can find the Jung information and share it with the board. Please don't be so hard on yourself. You didn't screw anything up. With the overwhelming amount of information you have in your head, it is easy to not recall something accurately without going over the material first. Okay so it was a good thing I located the source documentation before posting this account.... One of Reilly's PIs went looking for Mrs. Jung to interview her prior to the trial. When he got to her home he was told by Mr. Jung that she was presently in South America working with her Employer. So the two began talking. According to Jung, he was at the Police station being interviewed when (2) Detectives from New Jersey had come to pick up Johnson. He overheard them talking to one another when one said to the other: " Why in hell don't you shoot him on the Road, and say that he did himself while being taken over to be questioned." He also said: " What I said to you about 'Red Johnson' is the truth for I heard it with my own ears, that is the method used by the Jersey Police, they were willing to do anything as long as they could clear this up." After refreshing my memory from reading this here are my observations: 1. I believe 100% he heard this. 2. What he heard might have merely been an attempt to scare the hell out of him so that he might "fess up" what he knew to the Police. (As an indirect interrogation tactic where they pretend to legitimately be talking to each other when it's really a plot to manipulate the eavesdropper).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 20:02:49 GMT -5
After refreshing my memory from reading this here are my observations: 1. I believe 100% he heard this. 2. What he heard might have merely been an attempt to scare the hell out of him so that he might "fess up" what he knew to the Police. (As an indirect interrogation tactic where they pretend to legitimately be talking to each other when it's really a plot to manipulate the eavesdropper). Thanks for posting what Jung told Reilly's PI. I assume that the police in this quote are the Jersey City police. 1. I believe he heard this also. From what Red Johnson said about how the Jersey Police treated him, those remarks fit in perfectly. 2. I am sure those remarks were scare tactics to get Jung to tell everything he knew about Red Johnson. The Jungs were Johnson's alibi for March 1, 1932. It must not have worked. I am not aware of them changing their story of being with Red the night of the kidnapping.
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Post by ziki on Dec 30, 2018 13:01:10 GMT -5
Reading the chapter about Red Johnson in Mark Falzini’s book made me think about the possibility Red built "the kidnapping ladder". If Red was so skillful that he later built a whole house and made furniture and many other things in Norway… Or is it sure definitely BRH built the "crazy ladder"?
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Post by Michael on Dec 31, 2018 9:01:45 GMT -5
Reading the chapter about Red Johnson in Mark Falzini’s book made me think about the possibility Red built "the kidnapping ladder". If Red was so skillful that he later built a whole house and made furniture and many other things in Norway… Or is it sure definitely BRH built the "crazy ladder"? I am currently putting together the final touches on the wood evidence I decided to address in V3 now so I won't get into specifics. But keep this discussion going regardless.... It might cause me to add more if I see interests that I did not include. However, there were several things that arose before, during, and after Hauptmann's arrest that led to the idea the ladder may have been built by two people and Koehler even believed the ladder was possibly constructed at a "secluded" spot away from the Hauptmann's apartment/garage (see V2 page 495). So there is "room" for the idea that someone else may have aided him in its construction even if one is convinced he made it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 11:42:42 GMT -5
I am not a "wood" person in any way, shape or form, so I am looking forward to what you (Michael) will be sharing in volume 3 about this topic of evidence.
I have not yet reviewed the reports on the ladder that are at the archives. I do look forward to reviewing all this material in the future. I find Squire Johnson's reports interesting since he did the first examination of the ladder. I read in Adam Schrager's book, The Sixteenth Rail, that in Johnson's first report, Squire thought that the ladder was a "hurry up" job because the runners had positions marked for cutouts (additional rungs??) that were never cut and used.
Will there be anything in Volume III about Abe Samuelsohn? Condon tried to keep Samuelsohn's wood involvement from the authorities. Could his reason have been because Samuelsohn had provided wood for the ladder and Condon didn't want this coming up in the investigation?
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Post by Michael on Jan 1, 2019 12:17:27 GMT -5
Will there be anything in Volume III about Abe Samuelsohn? Condon tried to keep Samuelsohn's wood involvement from the authorities. Could his reason have been because Samuelsohn had provided wood for the ladder and Condon didn't want this coming up in the investigation? Thanks Amy. It is a complicated road but it leads to the truth. And both sides aren't going to very much like it. Again - I didn't write or invent the source material so it is what it is. The fact that everyone lied whenever or where ever they believed it necessary will be on full display and indisputable - (minus those "pretenders" who will make up an "excuse" like claim I did "poor research" as if it somehow invalidates the facts). As you remember, I wrote about Samuelsohn in V2 concerning the Ransom Box but I don't mention him in V3.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2019 13:56:47 GMT -5
Amy - and he and Betty had gone to Highfields twice before the kidnapping. Whose car did they use for those trips? They used Red Johnson's green coupe. I believe somewhere on this thread Michael explains that Red bought the car in New York and that is the one he used when seeing Betty.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 11:01:57 GMT -5
]Amy - and he and Betty had gone to Highfields twice before the kidnapping. According to Red Johnson's March 8, 1932 statement to authorities, Red and Betty actually made three (3) trips to the High Field house before the kidnapping. First in November 1931, second on New Year's Day 1932 and then February 1932 just several weeks before the kidnapping. The Lindberghs were not present during the November 1931 visit or the February 1932 visit. CAL and Anne were at the Highfields house on the New Year's day 1932 visit. Something very interesting about that first trip in November, 1931, which Red claims was at the behest of Betty Gow, who, I guess wanted to see where she was going to end up working once the Lindberghs moved there permanently, was what happened on that November trip: 1)The Whateleys took Red and Betty on a tour of the interior of the house, showing them all the rooms including the nursery and Colonel Lindbergh's room. 2) Whateley and Red Johnson went outside, walking down to the woods where the poles had been erected for the power line to the house. I get wanting to show Red and Betty the house. That makes sense, especially since Gow would be working there. However, that walk to look at the power line to the house makes no sense to me. Who shows something like that. In fact, who wants to even know something like that? Please don't stop posting, ilovedallasfortworth. We need your input on this board on lots of topics!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 16:34:07 GMT -5
Hi everyone. I explained to Michael what happened and am back. Thank you all for telling me not to stop. Anyway, I was extremely careful with what I gave to Kendall. I printed every photo I could find of Charlie's feet, toes, and head and face. I gave her the absolutely briefest information I could because I did not want to influence her thoughts or of any doctors she might ask an opinion of at TCH. Will let you all know what information I get back as soon as I get it. There is something I found in a book I ordered through HPL's intralibrary system - Kennedy's Crime of the Century. On pages 48-49, he is talking about Charlie and his toys. . . "every night he took his grandmother Lindbergh's toy lamb or pussy cat to bed with him, hid it under the bedclothes, then like some artful conjuror pulled it out with shouts of glee." So my question is why were the bedclothes pinned to his mattress the night of March 1 when they obviously were not before? And as to CAL's rule of not disturbing him from 7:00 - 10:00, that WAS a rule for as long as he was alive, not just that night. I had thought maybe CAL wanted no one around between those hours on March 1, but it was always a rule. By the way, I really did not like the book. Too gushy with CAL's "love" for his child and nothing about his health at all. Glad to be back! Amy, maybe since Highfields was so isolated and surrounded by poorer people living in shacks with no electricity, that Ollie was excited about having power brought to the house? He and Elsie must have been there without any electricity for a few weeks? But then you are right to be a little suspicious - November is cold and from what I remember of living in Hopewell, either rainy or snowy. Maybe the poles could not be seen from the windows of the house? So glad you are back! Looking forward to what Kendall has to say about the photos you shared. Very smart to limit your input about the pictures. She will be sharing her unbiased thoughts which is great!! Kennedy's book has some interesting stuff in it. Agree that he lays it on thick about CAL and Charlie's relationship. I think that comes from Anne's diary entries. No mention of any health issues like you say. Kennedy has no footnotes for his book, just a source list of the materials he used so you can't match anything up unless you have those sources and have read them all. You bring up an excellent point about Charlie's toy lamb and the pussy cat as bed toys. They were his favorites. I have never encountered this blanket pinning in anything I have read on this case, except for the night of the kidnapping. I am not saying it wasn't done, I am just not aware of it. Same with the thumb guards. If Charlie wanted to cuddle or play with his lamb or pussy cat that night it would have been a real struggle to do which I think would have made for a very unhappy toddler! But then, he was supposed to be sick, right? I get your point about the surrounding homes being so much less than High Field. I just don't understand why Johnson would have been interested in looking at the poles with the power line. Johnson was a sailor who did have some carpentry skills. Maybe he was thinking of building a house some day?? High Field was up and running as far as utilities goes that fall. Maybe it was Whateley who made a big deal about it. The house did have state-of-the-art systems installed, so that might be all there was to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2019 17:00:47 GMT -5
Amy, i think you are more correct than I am about the power lines. Guess I just do not want Ollie and Elsie involved. have you ever heard of a windmill built in back of the house? I read it in a book regarding the description of the property. I have looked intently at all aerial views as I can find and cannot for the life of me see a windmill anywhere. What would they have had one built for anyway? Ollie and Elsie might not have been involved. Johnson might have commented about the amount of electricity it would take to run the house and Whateley showed him the power line when they were walking around the property. I have not heard about a windmill on the property before. I will have to check up on that! Maybe Michael or Wayne might know if there was such a thing somewhere on the property. I know the Cold Soil Road farm property had one.
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