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Post by Michael on Mar 29, 2016 18:18:22 GMT -5
Did Ollie make any other statement where he says he took that call from Johnson? Not that I remember. I did some checking and couldn't find anything.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 3, 2016 16:06:37 GMT -5
Henrik Johnson - Prime Suspect?
I don't think so. IIRC, he was arrested within the week following the (purported) kidnapping and was imprisoned and grilled roughly for several days by NJSP. They released him and didn't charge him. I don't think he used any kind of political clout to get his release, but rather the police were convinced he was NOT involved.
I read somewhere that "Red" returned to his native Norway not long after this arrest and apparently lived out his life there without getting into any trouble with the law.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2016 20:04:31 GMT -5
Briefly, Red Johnson was handled by two different police agencies (Hartford Connecticut and Jersey City Police, Newark NJ). He then was transferred to Ellis Island where he remained in the custody of Immigration officers under a $50,000 bail. After receiving special assistance through the efforts of numerous US senators and Congressmen, some police officials, and the Director of the RNC, the warrant of deportation was canceled once Johnson's departure was verified. On Thursday, July 21, 1932, Red sailed for Norway on the S/S Tonsbergfjord. Red's brother Fred paid for the passage. Mark Falzini's book "Their Fifteen Minutes" is the source for this information. Here is a picture of Red Johnson leaving the Newark Police Station: www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/Watchf-AP-A-NJ-USA-APHS257553-Lindbergh-Baby-1932/6bed10f65adb4f38933769e816091d96/1/0
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 3, 2016 21:08:47 GMT -5
To amy35:
Yes, I should have amended my earlier post concerning Red's history. Didn't realize that he did have that political clout, probably from the Morrow clan, likely working to shield Betty Gow (and hence, the Morrows themselves) from the negative publicity attached to the press's reporting on her fiance (?) as a "hot" suspect in the days and weeks following the (purported) kidnapping.
After his intense questioning by police regarding the (purported) kidnapping convinced local law enforcement that he was innocent with respect to the LKC, it seems as if federal law enforcement discovered that Red was an illegal alien and took him into custody c. March 15, 1932. He was detained for months before there was an agreement reached whereby Red would not be deported per se but would voluntarily go back to his native Norway, with the possibility of eventually returning legally to the US.
To the best of my knowledge he never did come back, although it was rumored at the beginning of the Hauptmann trial that he was likely to be subpoenaed to return to testify for the State of New Jersey. But that never happened. Red did some interviews from Norway, where he expressed his innocence in the LKC and was critical of his treatment by law enforcement and the press in the US.
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Post by jack7 on Apr 3, 2016 23:08:42 GMT -5
Was it determined that CJ just got his information about Red from the newspapers, or did CJ know more about Red?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 12:20:05 GMT -5
Interesting question Jack. That whole thing where CJ essentially clears Betty Gow and Red Johnson of involvement has always bothered me. When Condon was on the stand in Flemington he also did the same thing regarding Red Johnson. He stated that he became involved in the case because the newspapers were pointing a finger at Red Johnson who he thought was innocent. So I guess if Condon was reading about Johnson and Gow in the newspapers then it is logical to assume that CJ was too. Michael, My understanding is that Red Johnson bought his green Chrysler Coupe about two weeks before the kidnapping. I believe he purchased this car in Englewood NJ. Would you be able to comment on why Red's car had NY License plates if he was living in NJ and bought the car in NJ? Did the police run those plates? If this will be in your forthcoming volume, then I realize that you won't be able to say much about this but I thought I would ask just in case you can comment. Do you know what Johnson was driving before he purchased this coupe? He was taking Betty out on dates so he must have been driving something. Here is a newspaper picture of Red Johnson's Chrysler coupe and the milk bottle that was found in Red's car: news.google.com/newspapers?id=r-I0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=57UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5565%2C678148
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 4, 2016 15:19:36 GMT -5
Jack, your question assumes that Condon was accurate in his description of what CJ purportedly told him about Red. As we know, Condon sometimes fudged the truth, and in this instance, no one but Condon could vouch for what CJ may have or may not have said.
Now IF CJ told Condon that "Red Johnson is innocent," the simplest explanation of why CJ mentioned it is that Johnson's name had appeared quite extensively in newspapers, and CJ wanted to tell Condon that "Red" is NOT the guy for him to deal with, rather CJ is the one to receive the ransom. Of course, this does not rule out the possibility that CJ may have known "Red" in some capacity,or that even Condon may have known "Red."
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Post by corrine on Apr 4, 2016 15:47:32 GMT -5
I read the article in this newspaper years ago. Nurse Had Fears For Baby's Saftey - Letter from Miss Gow's Mother tell's of premonition.Did the police or anyone ever make copy's of the letters Betty wrote to her mom - March 1932 - About Betty expressing her concerns that she feared something serious might happen.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 4, 2016 16:19:37 GMT -5
To corrine and All:
Maybe you can find the name and date of the newspaper, or even better, link us to a newspaper image of that story. Never heard of it, but it would be quite interesting.
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Post by corrine on Apr 4, 2016 17:09:32 GMT -5
Newspaper Artical of Nurse Betty Gow letters of concern to her mother Attachments:
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Post by Michael on Apr 4, 2016 17:39:57 GMT -5
My understanding is that Red Johnson bought his green Chrysler Coupe about two weeks before the kidnapping. I believe he purchased this car in Englewood NJ. Would you be able to comment on why Red's car had NY License plates if he was living in NJ and bought the car in NJ? I might be "spacing out" right now but I believe Red only had one car. I know that he bought that Chrysler at a used car lot on Broadway in NYC. I know that he had a Brooklyn address when he was laid off, and when he wasn't lived on Lamont's Yacht at the Harlem River Ship Yard. It was sometime after buying this car that he moved to Englewood to be nearer to Betty.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 20:58:01 GMT -5
Michael, I read in a newspaper article that the police learned that Johnson had bought the car about two weeks before the kidnapping.
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Post by jack7 on Apr 4, 2016 22:12:35 GMT -5
Right Amy - perplexing.
It always seemed that CJ wouldn't care enough about Betty & Red to mention that they weren't guilty. As Michael said long ago when have you ever heard of a kidnapper excluding someone else as to having done their crime? It seems also that Condon, though pretty looney, would have other things on his mind than exonerating B & R. Lindbergh on the other hand would seem to fit right into those thoughts. So was CAL somehow prompting the dialogue given to Condon which would come out as Betty and Red publicly not guilty? Or telling Condon what to say - that one would seem pretty risky.
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Post by lightningjew on Apr 4, 2016 23:34:34 GMT -5
The article Corrine posted is very interesting. It fits quite well with what I think Betty's knowledge was: She was told something was going to happen, was kept in the dark about the exact nature of it, and was naturally concerned.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 5, 2016 7:31:00 GMT -5
I read the article in this newspaper years ago. Nurse Had Fears For Baby's Saftey - Letter from Miss Gow's Mother tell's of premonition.Did the police or anyone ever make copy's of the letters Betty wrote to her mom - March 1932 - About Betty expressing her concerns that she feared something serious might happen. That article you posted, Corrine, is very short, but it could be a "game changer" in how the (purported) kidnapping is viewed overall. Once Gow states that she had a feeling that something terrible was in the works, so terrible that she wanted to resign (remember that this was during the Great Depression, so working class people didn't resign from jobs on a whim), it would be logical to think that Gow was asked to do something by her employer, the Lindberghs, that aided and abetted the plan to do something to Charlie. It also suggests that Gow may have been persuaded to stay on by some kind of blackmail or special reward on the part of the Lindberghs, which may well have included protection from law enforcement, which indeed happened. It is likely that no one in law enforcement ever saw this article, because if they had, it should have changed the entire approach to the LKC investigation, and Gow's mother would surely have been interviewed extensively. Would anyone know what newspaper this article came from? (Perhaps from a newspaper not widely read, or even foreign?) Also, the article was written by "INS." Would that be "International News Service"? (Just a guess.) From the article itself, can anyone make out the important word in the third paragraph indicating who persuaded Gow to stay on?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 13:45:20 GMT -5
So was CAL somehow prompting the dialogue given to Condon which would come out as Betty and Red publicly not guilty? CAL prompting the dialogue? If he were somehow behind that exchange, wouldn't Condon be the one CAL would have the influence over? We have to assume that CAL does not know who CJ is so how would he have any influence over the conversation from that end??? This whole March 12th in the park conversation between Condon and CJ has only one teller of it and that is Condon who changed up the conversation to be whatever he needed it to be, depending on who he was telling it to. The bottom line never changes though about Betty and Red. They are innocent according to CJ. Do you think Lindbergh wanted Condon to get Betty and Red "off the hook" with the police by having CJ say B & R are innocent?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 14:04:14 GMT -5
It is likely that no one in law enforcement ever saw this article, because if they had, it should have changed the entire approach to the LKC investigation, and Gow's mother would surely have been interviewed extensively. Would anyone know what newspaper this article came from? (Perhaps from a newspaper not widely read, or even foreign?) Also, the article was written by "INS." Would that be "International News Service"? (Just a guess.) From the article itself, can anyone make out the important word in the third paragraph indicating who persuaded Gow to stay on? I think that law enforcement knew about the comments Betty's mom was making. According to a newspaper story in the Brooklyn Eagle, Major Charles H. Schoeffel of the NJSP was sent over to Glasgow from London to speak with Mrs. Taylor. The newspaper article that Corrine posted can be seen in the newspaper link I posted in an earlier post about the picture of Red Johnson car and the Milk Bottle. That particular newspaper was a Utah paper. The important word you can't make out is "colonel" as in Colonel Lindbergh. He asked Betty to please stay on.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 5, 2016 16:39:01 GMT -5
Yes, I do recall Major Shoeffel taking a trip to Europe with ransom notes in hand, consulting with Scotland Yard and then with people at the American embassy in Vienna, trying to get some help in profiling the German ransom note writer or writers. But the info you supplied about his interview with Mrs. Taylor is news to me, so thanks for that tidbit. Has anyone ever seen a copy of Schoeffel's report on this interview?
Yes, the Deseret News of Salt Lake City, still in business, believe it or not. Still, with emphasis of the Lindbergh investigation geographically concentrated mostly on the East Coast, there remains a pretty good possibility that an article appearing in a remote, relatively small newspaper like that would go unnoticed by LE. (Obviously, this is an era where domestic communication within the US is nowhere as developed as it is today.) Were there any other US newspapers that picked up that INS story about Mrs. Taylor?
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Post by Michael on Apr 5, 2016 16:46:35 GMT -5
Michael, I read in a newspaper article that the police learned that Johnson had bought the car about two weeks before the kidnapping. I read about the car in a couple of places. The first one which came to mind was his official statement (excerpt of relevant part): It was about the last of October, 1931 that I moved to Englewood, N. J. I was still employed on the Lamont Yacht which was at Harlem River Ship Yard, we were doing a lot of scraping and painting.
I then saw Betty Gow on the average of three times a week, I would visit her at the Morrow home and would also take her to the movies and out riding in the Chrysler coupe which I bought from the Heights Used Car Company on Broadway, New York City, just prior to my moving to Englewood.
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Post by corrine on Apr 9, 2016 17:08:11 GMT -5
I read the article in this newspaper years ago. Nurse Had Fears For Baby's Saftey - Letter from Miss Gow's Mother tell's of premonition.Did the police or anyone ever make copy's of the letters Betty wrote to her mom - March 1932 - About Betty expressing her concerns that she feared something serious might happen. Major Charles H Schoeffel of NJSP went to Glasgow to investigate. He spoke with Betty Gow's mother Mrs.Taylor. Did he ever take notes,or bring back anything, maybe a copy of the letters Betty mailed to her mom. Has to be some info or reports somewhere. I'am sure he had to give reports to his boss when he went back to NJ.
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Post by Michael on Apr 9, 2016 18:08:59 GMT -5
Major Charles H Schoeffel of NJSP went to Glasgow to investigate. He spoke with Betty Gow's mother Mrs.Taylor. Did he ever take notes,or bring back anything, maybe a copy of the letters Betty mailed to her mom. Has to be some info or reports somewhere. I'am sure he had to give reports to his boss when he went back to NJ. Corrine, What is your source that Schoeffel spoke to Betty's mother? From everything I have Schoeffel stayed in London with Chief Inspector Harwell of the New Scotland Yard. While there he did make an inquiry concerning Gow, but Harwell wired Glasgow City Police requesting an investigation to be made. On April 5th, Detective Lt. Montgomery of the Glasgow PD sent back a report to them. Here is the relevant part: She has also regularly corresponded with her mother, and has assisted the home financially. Her mother (Mrs. Taylor) is positive that she has not formed undesirable acquaintances, and states that in her letters she has described her life in America, and has mentioned her friendship with a man Johnstone[sic], who has been mentioned in connection with the kidnaping[sic] but has assured her mother that nothing more than friendship existed between them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 18:53:36 GMT -5
Michael, Several posts back I mentioned to Hurtelable I read in a newspaper article that Major Schoeffel was going from London to Glasgow to talk with Mrs. Taylor. It made sense to me that they would have wanted to question her about what her daughter Betty was sharing with her mother. I am really surprised that they did not do that. Anyway, I think this is what Corrine is basing her question on. Here is the article I read the comment in: Attachment Deleted
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Post by corrine on Apr 9, 2016 19:21:26 GMT -5
Thank You Amy ~ Interesting artical of old newspaper.
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Post by Michael on Apr 10, 2016 7:27:12 GMT -5
Michael, Several posts back I mentioned to Hurtelable I read in a newspaper article that Major Schoeffel was going from London to Glasgow to talk with Mrs. Taylor. It made sense to me that they would have wanted to question her about what her daughter Betty was sharing with her mother. I am really surprised that they did not do that. Anyway, I think this is what Corrine is basing her question on. A couple of thoughts I wanted to share.... It seems to me the AP was "close" but reported on the assumption that Schoeffel actually was going to Glasgow which was a mistake. This type of mistake happens with the Press, yet at times they can be correct too. I also wanted to make sure my question about the source is viewed as I had intended it. That is, not as a challenge, but as a request so that I could be informed. As everyone knows I often repeat the fact that there are many sources for things and no one has seen them all. And so my first reaction is to say to myself " what did I miss?" Anyway that's what this was all about in case someone viewed my question as me being an a-hole or something. No one is above learning something and I do everyday because of the posts everyone makes here. The next thing concerns the observations both Amy and Corrine made here. We have something that seemed like common sense so it's easy to cruise-control past it as a "given." One would think this should have been one of the first things done so it makes sense to accept it as a matter of fact. I know it's easy for me to say but it's a mistake to do this as it relates to this case. Throw common sense out the window. Even Schoeffel himself was surprised: "While looking over the file of the Lindbergh case in the office of Inspector Harwell I noticed that there was no request for an investigation concerning the antecedents and family history of nurse, Betty Gow, and requested that this check be made immediately. This was done that afternoon and before I left London I was given a typewritten report of the reply received from Glasgow, Scotland Police which is as follows:-"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 8:22:10 GMT -5
I also wanted to make sure my question about the source is viewed as I had intended it. That is, not as a challenge, but as a request so that I could be informed. The next thing concerns the observations both Amy and Corrine made here. We have something that seemed like common sense so it's easy to cruise-control past it as a "given." One would think this should have been one of the first things done so it makes sense to accept it as a matter of fact. I know it's easy for me to say but it's a mistake to do this as it relates to this case. Throw common sense out the window. Even Schoeffel himself was surprised: " While looking over the file of the Lindbergh case in the office of Inspector Harwell I noticed that there was no request for an investigation concerning the antecedents and family history of nurse, Betty Gow, and requested that this check be made immediately. This was done that afternoon and before I left London I was given a typewritten report of the reply received from Glasgow, Scotland Police which is as follows:-" Speaking for myself, I did not see your asking Corrine for a source as a challenge. I jumped in because I knew that I had not posted that article and Corrine would not have been able to supply that source for you. It is good that you asked. I would have continued to think that Schoeffel made a personal visit with Mrs. Taylor. Thank you for setting me straight. I am, however, concerned about what was really checked out concerning Betty Gow. The two quotes you have posted seem to address a background check of Betty's past plus what Betty was sharing about her relationship with Red Johnson. That's all good. What I am wondering is whether Schoeffel had Glasgow PD review Betty's letters to her mother concerning Betty's fears that something was going to happen to Charlie. Was this ever explored? Wouldn't Schoeffel want to know what Betty was basing these fears on? I would sure like to know!!! Maybe I should also ask if Schoeffel was even aware that Betty had these concerns that appeared in the newspaper clip Corrine posted?
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Post by Michael on Apr 11, 2016 18:28:40 GMT -5
What I am wondering is whether Schoeffel had Glasgow PD review Betty's letters to her mother concerning Betty's fears that something was going to happen to Charlie. Was this ever explored? Wouldn't Schoeffel want to know what Betty was basing these fears on? I would sure like to know!!! Maybe I should also ask if Schoeffel was even aware that Betty had these concerns that appeared in the newspaper clip Corrine posted? There's no evidence that I could find which indicates they read or reviewed her letters during this investigation. Again, I truly believe Schoeffel was caught off guard after learning no investigation had been made of her. Whether or not he was aware of that letter seems secondary to the point that no investigation had been made. To recap: On March 4th the NJSP asked for investigations be made on Olly Whateley. On March 8th they sent the fingerprints of Olly & Elsie Whateley, Ellerson, Alfred Burke, and Betty Gow to have them check to see if they were associated with any records. Then came Schoeffel's request in April. Later, in November 1932, Scotland Yard investigated a Telegram sent to Gow from a "Arthur Spencer London" concerning ransom money. Lt. Keaten asked Gow if she knew anyone by that name but she denied it claiming it must have been a joke. Don't worry though - I've addressed this in my book and I think it's explained. Of course one may not see it the way I do but I present the information so that decision can be made either way.
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Post by rebekah on Apr 11, 2016 19:50:31 GMT -5
I read the article in this newspaper years ago. Nurse Had Fears For Baby's Saftey - Letter from Miss Gow's Mother tell's of premonition.Did the police or anyone ever make copy's of the letters Betty wrote to her mom - March 1932 - About Betty expressing her concerns that she feared something serious might happen. That article you posted, Corrine, is very short, but it could be a "game changer" in how the (purported) kidnapping is viewed overall. Once Gow states that she had a feeling that something terrible was in the works, so terrible that she wanted to resign (remember that this was during the Great Depression, so working class people didn't resign from jobs on a whim), it would be logical to think that Gow was asked to do something by her employer, the Lindberghs, that aided and abetted the plan to do something to Charlie. It also suggests that Gow may have been persuaded to stay on by some kind of blackmail or special reward on the part of the Lindberghs, which may well have included protection from law enforcement, which indeed happened. Once again, I am reminded of the "I was promised I wouldn't be touched" quote from Betty. If Charlie was going to be 'sent away' because of certain medical problems that were not responding to known treatments of the day, this may have been quite upsetting to her. However, Anne was four months pregnant when Charlie disappeared, and there may have been an agreement (bribe?) for Betty to stay on and care for the new baby. I have a couple of questions that I'm not sure where to post, so I'll just plop them here. I've read that the holes in all of the ransom notes aligned perfectly, as though they were all punched at the same time. Is this a fact? Does this alignment square with the right sides of the paper? Does this alignment include the nursery note? I ask because, if these holes were all punched at the same time, it would appear that the 'kidnappers' were anticipating a long negotiation. Also, just where did Lindbergh send Olly Whateley that night to obtain flashlights? Where did he go, and how long was he gone?
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 13, 2016 8:42:52 GMT -5
But did Betty actually stay on to care for the new baby? We seem to hear very little about Betty's whereabouts between the initial investigation of the (purported) kidnapping up to her testimony at the Hauptmann trial nearly three years later. What was she up to during this period?
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Post by stella7 on Apr 13, 2016 9:59:08 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 13, 2016 16:23:31 GMT -5
To stella7:
Much thanks for your link to the Mark Falzini article, which is excellent. Seems as if the holes punched as part of the "signature" on those ransom notes that were "signed" were done with the same implement, though only two or three at a time.
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