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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 18, 2006 2:02:30 GMT -5
Kevin/ I really think you are onto something with your microenvironment theory! A whole new field of forensic decompostition. Is it anyding like the Bermuda Triangle? ;>{
Dr. Cyril Wecht "its not the Tailand confessor"
So far Ellis Parker is 3/3: Wagoosh didnt bark (Scion left at Next Day Hill); head bruise can in fact be a bullet wound; and bodily decomp favors an indoor heated furnace room and relocation...maybe on Thumbguard Day? No wonder CAL & Schvartzy did not want Parker in on the LKC. Didnt Parker actually go out to Highfields and snoop around at some point?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 18, 2006 6:35:19 GMT -5
Glad to see you are following in Parker's footsteps, Rick.
BTW. micro climates do exist and can be the result many factors. The presence of ground water, for example, can have a immense impact on t temperatures. I have a spring fed pond on my property which stays within a relatively narrow temperature range all year long. It rarely freezes. The area around that pond is affected by this, cool in the summer, warmer in the winter.
Bottom line regarding the corpse, there simply isn't enough info to make any conclusions.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 18, 2006 9:36:19 GMT -5
Kevin--be careful to conclude ONLY for your own self. Try not to dismiss everyone else's common sense with your bottom line:
Quite obviously, you are clever enough to realize that if the corpse had "accelerated decomposition" during colde rainy months of March/ April/ May 1932......the BRH /Lone Wolfe Theory falls completely to pieces even if the body turns out to be Charlie Jr. Maybe this is what Ellis Parker was driving at: eg the subnormal corpse has been moved and dumped out of a burlap bag!
Lets see now: Kevin's Micro-environment vs Ellis Parker Master Dick's 300+ murder cases.......hmmmm... Tropical Temps in shady woods in winter....(such a hard choice?)
So, where was Charlies body for 72 days? In Bruno's car trunk? Behind CALs furnace? Over at the Mt. Rosedale farmhouse? In the Bronx at the Knickerbocker Pie Baking Co? Over at Skillman Village? Up into the Sourland Mountains? Why did BRH drive all the ways back to Mercer County and dump the blackened corpse on Mt. Rose Road where CAL could find it after scoring the ransom? These certainly are knotty questions? It was so much simpler having it just lie there undisturbed for 72 days huh? Maybe John Karr knows something/? Mary Cerrita knew it was only 4 miles from Highfields on Sunday March 6th?
However, there is something weird about Parkers overall involvement in the LKC. He does not solve the case lickety-split? But waites a couple of years later to say...."its not BRH"? Too little too late? Wasn't one more famous Parkerism that the kidnap was separate from the extortion in the Bronx? Stay tuned.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 18, 2006 14:22:35 GMT -5
If we can go back to Shippel for a moment. I have no evidence other than what I can read. He supposedly referred to a hole having been dug on his property and the trees around it being marked. If a body has been buried for awhile, then exhumed and left to the elements, am wondering if this would affect the process of decomposition (though possibly slowing it) I believe he also said the baby was dead (before it was known). Perhaps he was merely opining, but then again maybe it was his burlap bag and him wanting to get that evidence off his property(?) Then again, if trees were marked around the spot maybe someone else came back(?)
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Aug 18, 2006 15:17:56 GMT -5
Hi mairi/ I have guite a few Shippel documents. Most of them are his neighbors and relatives turning in his name as the kidnapper who had a grudge against CAL. Shippels gripe had something to do with his 11 year olde daughter? Shippel was paranoid CAL would hurt her? Maybe Shippel was touched in the head?
No kind of ground contact either in or on in March April May is going to accelerate decomposition. One author made a composting analogy--does not occur in colde weather. For acceleration we need to apply heat. Even a car trunk wont do--unless its open to the drivers compartment which I presume would be untenable. An isolated furnace room, like used for JonBenet would do nicely? Not necessarily at her house though.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 18, 2006 15:35:29 GMT -5
Sorry to suggest that there just isn't enough info on the body's location for the period prior to discovery. And I certainly don't want to disagree with Parker. Of course I see the logic of your post. Obviously the kidnapper(s) proped Charlie up against the furnace. I mean where else would you hide a corpse? ( must have really made the occupants a bunch of happy campers). Nothing like shoveling coal with a dead body by your side, huh.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 18, 2006 16:43:33 GMT -5
kevin--here are your thoughts from February:
You hit the nail on the head--there is no reason for the actual perp/murderer/kidnapper or climber bringing Charlie back! Dead or Alive/ It was likely found in a just a few days....
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Post by Michael on Aug 18, 2006 18:49:08 GMT -5
Schippell was an interesting character. Many were suspicious of him and he didn't help his cause any. The NJSP broke into his place and took his tools. Koehler checked the lumber found around his "shack" more then once, and Squire Johnson was extremely suspicious of him. Johnson had been the first Expert to make a report on the ladder prior to any alterations, and concluded at least (2) people constructed it based upon the left-handed and right-handed saw cuts. Schippell was ambidextrous and therefore fell into his theory by way of this fact.
The hole you mention is an interesting fact, and the child was found very near his property. Additionally, child's clothing and diapers were found nearby and Schippell would claim these clothes were from his daughters doll. He was a WWI Veteran and was supposed to have been gassed during the War. I saw him referred to on more then one occasion as "mad" which leads me to believe this is who Waxey Gorden was referring to when he told George Clarke that a local "mad-man" had murdered the baby.....and he told Clarke this before the child was found.
Schippell would later claim the NJSP never returned all of his tools and swore out an affidavit to the effect some of the tools brought to Flemington as Hauptmann's may actually be his. The inference being the 3/4" chisel could be his although no specific claim to it was made.
Anyway, there was a rumor as to the child being "embalmed" or having "acid" poured on it. I had to search for the source of this because I don't know off the top of my head. I believe it came from those who saw the corpse in the morgue....personal observations of some misc. Law Enforcement Officers who were there, etc.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 18, 2006 20:44:52 GMT -5
I can only agree that interest in Charles Shippel (pronounced like Dave Chappel by his living neighbor) was keen and persisted for at least one year. Why, because Koehler and Bornmann looked over his wood and planes in March 1933. FPL has a slide taken of Shippel's plane marks! In addition, he had a car hidden under a tarp or shed, and some burlap bags. He worked for a time as a chauffeur! Essentially, there were few other leads to pursue? Shippel claimed to have been in the hospital in the Bronx on the nite of the snatch which must have helped to exonerate him. He was never formally charged with digging up Charlie and moving him over? To me, the early stages of Charlies disappearance seem staged, but the finding of his body along Hopewell-Princeton road seem more like the whacky actions of a psychotic sicko? Dumping out decomposed bodies from burlap bags is pretty gross when there is no clearcut motive or explanation for the action? Not unlike Wendel, Fisch, Sharpe, Ollie and Samuelsohn--bringing Shippel into the case causes as many problems as are solved? Shippel was crazy, just not crazy enough to arrest (think how many hours John Mack Karr has been on prime time?) PS Theon Wright specifically mentions embalming of the blackened corpse in The Search for the Lindbergh Baby (pp23-28) and publishes one of the Trenton Morgue photos.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 18, 2006 20:47:52 GMT -5
Rick and Michael~ Thank you very much for your replies. I appreciate the additional info on Shippel. He does sound rather "tetched" in the head (which may also bear some relevance to the event?). That he was ambidextrous=saw cuts is quite interesting. That he had similar ladders (from Skillman Village), with one missing, also stays in my mind. The police said the wood didn't match, but that says nothing to me--why would it have to match? I read he also owned a dark colored car. As to embalming or acid to the body, that is new to me. I might mention, lye was routinely used in outside privies-guess there could have been a few of those around in the territory? With acid/lye/embalming, would this have been off-putting to predators, I wonder. Another thought is if the remains may have been, if only part of the time, in the nearby water-creeks, were they(?). Would this not have hastened decomp? It seems to me it would have,-moisture being a key transporter of bacteria, then add to that predators.~~~~Thanx again.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 19, 2006 7:08:50 GMT -5
A conclusion which I assume must be based on the identification of left-nanded or right-handed wood.
And?
Good question. I wondered about this as well. But I have to admit that a recent find has made me wonder if Rick's furnace room theory is not more likely.
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Post by Michael on Aug 19, 2006 8:25:02 GMT -5
What new information do you refer?
I have always thrown the 'furnace' idea out there.... not because I think I know something but because of course heat accelerates decomposition. Now the furnace idea came from Murray Garrson, the Dept. Labor Investigator who was searching the Lindbergh's furnace at Highfields. He didn't come up with this idea on his own. Additionally, in the Squibb report there was coal dust found at the scene. Its a long shot but its why I mention it as a possibility... I am not sure how Rick came into this idea too but I would be interested to know.
This is a great point. I don't see animals (partially) eating a corpse treated with any of these chemicals. I believe there was something about the condition or color of the corpse that had those who saw it speculating.... I am sure this is where Rick is coming up with the "blackened corpse" when he describes it.
Could you explain this a little more? Are you saying that, for example, Rails 12 & 13, would show cuts in different directions? I think its important for an Expert like yourself to review these types of things and give us our options. For example, Keraga, to my satisfaction, should be given full credit for disproving Loney's assertion that S-226 was sawed with the left-hand.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 19, 2006 11:39:21 GMT -5
How do you visualize a corpse being kept to decompose in a furnace room? The odor would have been intolerable for some distance around, and for sometime thereafter. The only thing which comes to my mind is that it would have to have been sealed tightly in some sort of container, near some heat source. Then, how do we deal with the burlap bag?. It couldn't have been on the body the whole time. Otherwise signs of gross decomp would have shown on it, right? Has anyone come by a description of how the corpse was transferred out of the woods after it's discovery? Any chance the burlap bag (no matter what it's provenance) may have been employed to transfer the corpse from the woods to whatever receiving vehicle? This possibility might also account for why a foot/toe bone was later found inside the bag? (Am trying to be clinical, here, but 'tis a grim subject nonetheless).
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Post by rick3 on Aug 19, 2006 11:50:13 GMT -5
Kevin and Michael--stop agreeing with me or I'll stop posting!
1. I just started thinking about the furnace room because of JonBenet's dad.....behind the furnace is an out of the way spot not frequented by snoopers. Me and Murray must think alike? But then consider the accelerated decomposition of the skeleton too....heat, hot, tropics. [Remember when they used to put your milk on the radiator in school before lunch? ]
2. Schippel's plane marks......Michael, you owe it to yourself to stop over at the State Library or Museum down by the Delaware river in Trenton (@modern sculptures) and see Koehlers photo alblum.....Julie and I photographed every page in 2002? Anyways, the caption reads: "Impressions of hand plane marks made by Shippel's plane and".....I cant read second line its cut off? dated...3/27/33! And rungs.....#1 and #8 and Rail#16 I am just guessing but they likely didnt match the ladder?
3. Julie wanted me to mention that other articles, listed in the Squibb Report, were found with Charlies body....gloves? a piece of a table cloth? She thinks the table cloth could lead to another murder? Also, Julia thinks Allen was keyed to the burlap because he crossed the street? Is the Squibb Report on line or could it be made available?
4. They are now repeating on CNN that over 200 persons confessed to the LKC? Careful checking will reveal that Johnny Mack Karr was one of them?!
5. I did not invent the term "blackened corpse". Just check the photo in Theon Wrights paperback. Occasionally I see blackened, but sound, wood in the forest...its some kind of mineral reaction with iron/ If this chemical rx is not present in the soil at the drop site (Lizz Pagel) then it could be a really good clew?
6. Mairi.....the furnace room might be in an abandoned building or vacant farmhouse--still heated. I equate CALs reluctance to touch the Nursery Note with his absence from Hopewell on 12 May 1932?
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 19, 2006 14:13:08 GMT -5
Rick~ You equate CAL's reluctance to touch the nursery note with his absence on12 May 1932? Guess I'm not functioning on "all 8", right now, but would you please draw me the (proverbial) picture, on that? . You may want to smite me, but why would an abandoned bldg still be heated?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 19, 2006 16:27:06 GMT -5
Well, it probably isn't new to you, ( what info could be?) but a re-reading the BOI (FBI) files provided me with something I never thought about before. I am not too comfortable with throwing this out publicly, so if you don't mind I will run it by you privately first.
Quite honestly I think the deduction regarding what handed sawyer cut the wood is absurd. If you have reason to doubt planer marks, then this assertion should really send you over. There are just too many variables at work here and without more knowledge regarding the orientation of the workpiece and the sawyer, the saw, the saw set, the saw sharpness, the work environment, and a few other details I don't see much credibility in any conclusions about the sawyer. Anyone making such claims would really have to do an awful lot of qualifying for me to take it serious.
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Post by rick3 skeptic4 on Aug 19, 2006 16:57:52 GMT -5
Yikes Mairi/ now thee are the posting police too....abandonment, empty, deserted, vacate=vacant. Folks might keep some heat and alite on--just like Motel 6? Kapish?
Kevin--whilst I was checking for the Schippel plane marks I found a paper by Koehler in my files...The Search For North Carolina Pine: Rails 12 and 13. Now I have always considered this to be AKs forte (adept, expertise). Since Rail 16 is equally North Carolina Pine, searching for 12 and 13 may have yielded a pearl or bonus or insight or "aha surprise" into the origin of Rail 16? Just a thought/
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Post by Michael on Aug 19, 2006 18:57:38 GMT -5
Do you think I haven't looked through it? Heck Rick, I have even checked Hauptmann's trunk for a false bottom for God's sake. BTW, according to AK they didn't match. Thanks for the compliment but there are many things I don't know. There's also things I have forgotten (or lost) I think they are including the anonymous ones and/or those who state they were a party to the plan but "back out," duped, or left once they discovered the child was killed. Then there were those "tips" (e.g. from angry wives giving up their husbands....etc.) I don't think there were actual face to face confessions numbering 200. Send CNN an email and ask them for their source and the names of at least 20. In fact, I'll add 5 Karma points to anyone who can name 20. I've got no problem with tool mark identification if its done properly. I have a problem when someone "fudges" their findings by 'cutting corners' or omissions like AK (and others) did. Then there are even those who would do this then proceed to criticize people for similar conduct - or for even less then that. Now the saw cuts.... It seems reasonable if done free-handed and not in a midor-box that lefty's and rightys may 'veer' off in one direction or the other. Is it your position this isn't the case for everyone or just carpenters? Another good observation...plus a saying that I see often in the Police reports! When the Reporters snuck in the Morgue to take the photos they said there was a horrific smell. Now I think the smell would get worse over time so again, this is out of my area, but when the corpse was moved I feel could be important. It may have been moved on more then one occasion. Exactly when it came to rest where it was found has been the topic of much speculation. Like Kevin has said - I just don't think we know enough yet.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 19, 2006 19:45:24 GMT -5
Rick~ Yes, I've known what abandoned and deserted mean since I was a young pup (though I've never even seen an abandoned and deserted Motel 6 keep the heat running! ) "Post Police" No Kapish, for sure!! My interest lay in further elaboration of your equation of CAL not touching the nursery note, with his 12 May 1932 absence. If my quest for understanding equates with my having a "senior moment", sorry, sorry, sorry
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 19, 2006 21:37:17 GMT -5
Mairi and Michael....try to play along as I meant no disrespect:
1. Heat keeps the home fires burning and the pipes from freezing. Protects your investment.
2. When you come to think of it, the most astounding thing is that for nighe on 30 months....no suspects are uncovered? No money passers or launderes are caught? All roads lead nowheres in circles? Hows that? Who is tipping the perps?
3. CALs behavior on ! March 32 caught everyones attention--those that were even paying attention. The nursery note is in the wrong place at the wrong time and then we waite 2 hours to crack it open. CALs behavior on 12 May is equally suspect. Curtis did not show the singnature or the sleeping suite, in fact nothing concrete, but there goes CAL sailing the ocean blue for 19 days searching for the Mystery ship and Hilda, Inez, Lars, Neils & Dynomite? DYBT? "It just doesnt add to me up"
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 19, 2006 21:48:54 GMT -5
There are many factors that can cause a saw to "veer". For example, an improper set to the teeth, dull teeeth, or a bent blade can cause the saw to veer right or left. Other reasons for a "wandering" cut may be an uncomfortable working position or an inexperienced sawyer. In short, I would be extremely hesitant to render an opinion regarding the handedness of a sawyer based solely on an examination of a sawcut.
Rick, the major problem I have with the body being kept in someone's basement is one of location. I may be incorrect, but it seems to me that you are proposing a building in the kidnap vicinity. I can't se the sense in doing this with so many natural places available for hiding the body. Also if you are suggesting an unoccupied, but heated structure I would say that was pretty unlikely in 1932. Most rural buildings were heated by coal or wood, both of which require constant attendance. But, assuming that there is a possibility of the corpse having been in a heated space for a period of time, then I think the two important questions are; why and where? Why keep a corpse inside a attended building? Where would such a building be located? I am not sure about the answer to the first question, but I would say the answer to where has to be somewhere completely out of the search region.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 20, 2006 10:56:35 GMT -5
kevin--I totally agree with you. I have problems with the Party Line and all the other possible gross sceneaireos? Yikes...but maybe if we keep pounding away something sensible will become of our labors?
!. We are looking for an interim location with heat but where you can't smell a dead corpse decomposing? This eliminates your home or office--but maybe not crazy Schippels** shack? What other buildings are isolated but heated. Why choose heat anyways--because its locked and safe? Most choose colde--like a freezer? i dont know--to speed up decomp or to just hide Charlie out till the hubbub dies down? What would convicted child murderes do? **If it werent for the extortion in the Bronx?
2. How about an external or central heating plant away from the buildings being heated? Like at the Skillman Village for instance? Where a whole bunch of buildings are heated from a central location and pipes are run undergraound to separate, but equal, locations? The Famous UW Madison has a huge steam plant to heat FPL and the whole campus!
3. Is there any way to keep a rotting corpse from smelling? today plastic bags are popular, especially black ones that go to the dump? I dont think JonBenets xmas blanket was a good idea? It would have turned into a dead giveaway in no time. (sic)
4. Would a plastic tablecloth keep a corpse from being detected? What were mob killers using in the 30s?
In the event we cannot find a reasonable explanation for the circumstances surrounding Charlies? discovery and condition then its one point in favor of its not Charlie? Take a look at page 100 in Theon Wrights paperback. Who does it look like to you? Any sub-human that can dump a corpse out along the road, is likely to be able to re-dress a substiture as well? Ugh gross/ Now we are getting into John Mack Karr territory?
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Post by Michael on Aug 20, 2006 12:31:07 GMT -5
I think Skillman is out of the question. Once the Highfields garage was turned into the Headquarters for the investigation, many Troopers were given a place to sleep there. Kelly, for example, slept there off shift. I realize it was a big place with many bldgs. But this place was on the NJSP radar very early on. They checked all employees, and any escapes from there. Additionally, we know that a search included a 5 mile radius. The Police Officers were given maps and told to check every building, barn, and/or structure....This was later expanded to about 10 miles.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 20, 2006 14:19:33 GMT -5
Look, I am not sure about the whole issue regarding the baby's advance state (unnatural) state of decomposition. It is simply a subject beyond my knowledge. However, if there is any truth to it and the presence of coal dust on the bag, then I think it is a reasonable conclusion that the body was stored in an above frigid space and near a coal furnace or bin. So, I would say that we can rule out anyplace near Hopewell for several reasons. For one the place is swarming with police. For another, the area is pretty rural which means there are a limited amount of coal fired heated structures which are either unoccupied or large enough to keep such a gruesome cache undetected. And of course, one has to ask why would you keep a corpse inside in the first place when you have the luxury of so much wilderness. My guess would be the reason one keeps a corpse hidden inside is because their external environment is not conducive to hiding a body. To me, that means a city. A city would also provide plentiful spaces such as warehouses, factories, and apartment buildings in which a remote furnace or basement is out of sight ( or smell) to most. These spaces would also have large coal bins or lockers which obviously would only be accessible to a few. Perhaps it would be wise to look North, where all the action is taking place.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Aug 20, 2006 15:12:13 GMT -5
Am not convinced (yet) coal dust means anything relevant. Nor can I think the advanced decomp remains were in the burlap bag for any real period of time. From what I can see or read the bag just doesn't reveal that kind of evidence. I also have a problem with the remains being near heat (for a reason I won't go into, here). We've tried inside and outside, city and country. What's left (?) - air and sea --maybe sure 'nuff, a boad? A boat in a hidden, isolated area? Then after the pay off, placed in the woods? ( Don't know, don't know )
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 20, 2006 18:27:59 GMT -5
I like the city theory (Kevin) and the boat theory (Mairi).
Here's our 5 current contenders:
1. Duane William Baker at JJ Faulkner apartments?
2. Sam, Doc, Lars, Dynamite Larsen and Inez on one of two boats?
3. Paul E. Wendel's house in Trenton
4. Schippel's shack on olde Mt. Rose Road or a Sourland Mountain cabin like the Pig Lady?
5. Rosedale farmhouse on Cold Soil rd. [Whos most likely to return the corpse?]
Is it equally possible that all the damage to the corpse is not predatory critters in the woods. In the Ellis Parker mystery entitled "The Cunning Mulatto" Louis Livery disembowles Matilda Russo before burial?
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Post by EMM on Aug 20, 2006 22:06:17 GMT -5
OK, I'm coming out of the woodwork again. Something Rick said sparked a memory and I started thinking. First, here's Rick's quote: And Michael responded with: So, what's the possibility of it being another institution type place with the same type of set-up? There's a compound in the West Trenton/Ewing area. It was once a school for "wayward girls" and is now part of the Dept. of Corrections. Until recently the buildings were heated with steam piped underground from Trenton Psychiatric Hospital. So what if the body had been buried (either there or near the Skillman complex) near one of the steam pipes. Could the temps of the ground around the pipes have effected the decomposition of the body? ?
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Post by Michael on Aug 21, 2006 8:14:40 GMT -5
I think this is a good example to support what Rick has put out there. FYI, the Police believed there was a local element to the crime and therefore looked closely at these institutions. For example, they went to Dr. Robert Stone and gathered the records from NJ State Hospital then compiled a list of escapes to try and track down the whereabouts of these people.
Some times no reports were made of certain investigations and I would become aware they occurred by hand-written notes in files asking for the reports concerning different things and seeing "no report written" next to the question in different handwriting. (I've been at this so long I can now nail down who wrote what because I can recognize the handwriting).
It's for this reason I cannot say these buildings were checked but my best guess is they were. However, since I am of the opinion the child was moved the important question would have to be 'when' and was it after he was.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 21, 2006 10:05:06 GMT -5
Perhaps instead of one step forward, two steps back, a determination of certain facts is in order. Was there or was there not coal dust on the bag? If there was, it simply can't be disregarded. It would be real evidence and as such requires incorporation into the mystery of the corpse. Whether you think it was a local building with coal heat or the Plymouth Apartments , there must be an explanation. Regarding the corpse, is it really beyond determination to ascertain whether or not accelerated decomposition occurred? I am not a forensic anthropologist and therefore am unable to determine this on my own. But I can't believe that with all of the research and study this case has received that such a determination, or at least a strong opinion by someone knowledgeable has not been made. If not, then we should contact someone in this field immediately and get some professional opinions. As to the why, unfortunately I think this will remain unknown and the subject of conjecture. But if we can at least be sure that the baby was stored in a heated building, for example, it might go a long way to getting closer to what actually occurred.
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Post by rick3 skeptic5 on Aug 21, 2006 10:20:05 GMT -5
Kevin and Joe/ forget the outside gymnastics of hanging off the window ledge and the precise positioning of the shutter dogs etc.......take one good look at the inside of Charlies bedroom/ the trunk/ the beer tankard and all that and it eliminates a full climb thru short of a Tom Cruise Movie or a complete re-straightening during the immaculate wipedown??? Mission Impossible/ plain and simple.
Kevin--apparently we all need to read the Squibb Report in order to discover what was found in the leaves and bones and burlap bag at the dump site! Maybe Michael can upload it onto the Website???
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