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Post by leeforman on Aug 20, 2008 23:38:58 GMT -5
- Spitz - Grasso deal. - Message discovered under table with reference to Summit for remainder of ransom. - Possible Welch [Welsh?] carpentry work performed by Hauptmann on Summit Ave. - A hotel as connected somehow via Spitz? Not sure how Walnut Street plays into that either. - Persian Rug of Summit - the owner's letter to Hoover.
Is anyone familiar with the latter - and did the author ever indicate whom it was he was implicating as a perfect suspect - stoop shouldered, someone he had known for 10 years, German, and whose handwriting on the ransom notes was a much better match than Hauptmann's?
- lee
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Aug 21, 2008 0:38:22 GMT -5
Are you crazy or are we?
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Post by Michael on Aug 21, 2008 5:57:02 GMT -5
Lee,
I may have that letter. It sounds familiar. Do you have a reference point for it? If so it would help me search it out in my files.
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Post by Joe on Aug 21, 2008 5:59:14 GMT -5
A much better match to the handwriting than Hauptmann's? That I'd like to see, considering the traits of similarity which basically eliminate the rest of the world as candidates. Even Hauptmann himself and loyal Anna couldn't believe how much it looked like his own, after both unsuccessfully played their hand at how dissimilar it was, ultimately stating that it must have been the work of a master forger. Uh-huh..
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Post by jack7 on Aug 21, 2008 12:44:17 GMT -5
If it doesn't fit you must acquit!
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Post by jack7 on Aug 22, 2008 1:39:25 GMT -5
Hauptmann himself at least said (perhaps even testified - he was pretty stupid) that it looked like his handwriting, and Anna, when she looked at notes said it probably was his. Duh - how lame are these folks? So lets just write that out and say that it wasn't his writing, even though he says it was. Nothing puts him in the nursery. But several questionable (?) witnesses put him in the area and one very reliable witness plants someone who looks just like Hauptmann there on the day of the crime in a similar car with a ladder in his car - duh? And then rail 16. Why do people keep struggling with this, Joe? The judge saw that this was all junk and ruled accordingly and the jury.
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Post by Michael on Aug 22, 2008 5:52:51 GMT -5
Never did Anna say he wrote the notes. The only real source is their comments concerning the similarity in the Stockburger Reports AND they knew they were being listened to...so I am not sure exactly how, what, or what context this was said in. There's also the Parker interview and the comments Hauptmann makes about the writing. There is plenty of writing that is similar to the ransom notes. Many times a Suspect had an alibi or there was that one or two differences that turned off the Experts. Heck, if it weren't for the ransom money being discovered in Hauptmann's garage Osborn Jr. was saying he didn't write them.
Point is, that a lot of German handwriting can look similar, and that Hauptmann's real handwriting isn't exactly as it is written in the notes. I am not going to re-hash this again now, but nothing is a fore-gone conclusion for me.
The handwriting on the table isn't Hauptmann's nor is it the Ransom Note author in my opinion. For what its worth.....
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Post by Joe on Aug 22, 2008 9:37:13 GMT -5
There is no evidence to conclude Osborn Jr. wouldn't have come around to his father's separate conclusions, given the time required for a proper examination of the writing and not one conducted under duress. You're simply relating what the cops at the Greenwich Station jokingly concluded as each came to a kind of group-motivated, simple 'cause-and-effect logic' assumption here. If Osborn Sr. had not believed in his conclusions, I very much doubt he would have testified or been able to demonstrate the degree of damaging evidence he did.
Yes, German writing can look similar and this can happen in any other language because of the group learning aspect in elementary schooling. That's why there are experts in this field, the overwhelming majority of whom, trained to discriminate the subtlest of characteristics and nuances, have conclusively stated for the past 70+ years that Hauptmann wrote each and every one of those ransom notes.
You're welcome to pursue the writing on the table brace but I think enough evidence has already come to light to show it has no legitimate relevance to this case.
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Post by leeforman on Aug 22, 2008 16:41:43 GMT -5
Hey Michael, et al.
Persian Rug Company, 362 Springfield Ave, Summit NJ, letter to J Edgar Hoover, dated Sept 1, 193? My copy is cut off. Hard to make out the signature - signed something like S. Pagtikian.
Everything as indicated save for the name of the individual he is implicating - logically one would assume that the FBI did a follow-up directly with this individual and got the name of the person he suspected.
The curious piece for me is the Summit connection. I am still trying to gain an understanding of why Spitz was brought to Summit.
From the Independent Press article - Jan 13, 1999
"a well known Summit resident cooperated with former Gov Harold F Hoffman in one of the governor's last moves to prove that Bruno Hauptmann was not guilty..." Is that Grasso? If so - why Summit?
"The Summit angle, according to the Herald, was abandoned when 'it became apparent that either Spitz had hoodwinked the authorities or was afraid to disclose any information he had. He dropped out of sight.'"
What Summit angle? It appears that the author of the article, Lehman, had to theorize that this well known Summit resident may have been one George Warren - but for reasons unknown. And what the 'Summit Angle' may have been is unclear as well - as this took place before the discovery of the handwriting on the brace.
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Post by Michael on Aug 22, 2008 18:20:29 GMT -5
Or when once the ransom money was found. ;D I'd say its up to the Expert to qualify his opinion as whether or not its being made under "duress" at the time it was made - don't you think? Even Experts make mistakes Joe, if you believe Hauptmann wrote the notes then Osborn Jr. made one here and for me its easy to see why he did.
I agree he believed it. However, if by the time of trial something troubled him I am willing to bet he would have let it slide by then. Ego is a powerful thing - especially to Experts being told they are wrong.
Also consider there were other times where Osborn Sr. was wishy-washy too Joe. And he was wrong about the infamous "x" and the hyphen in New-York. If you want examples of other Experts making mistakes just take a look at Script. He's still inventing words in Hauptmann's notebooks in order to support his conclusions.
I have to disagree. Who conclusively has done this? Who conclusively has done this while being told the Exemplars were tainted? Give me some names and please don't include Script.
Again Joe, Osborn said people have only one disguise and that they tend to forget it if they can't see what they've done. When applying that to the ransom notes how does Hauptmann replicate a disguise done days and weeks apart when the Exemplars show he can't remember a disguise from one minute to the next? Please explain this to me.
Of course I will and I have. If there's nothing to it then no harm can come from it.
I have all of this. Problem is that information on Spitz is in several different folders I've made. Finnegan, Davis, Lewis, Hoffman, and I want to check out Hoover's correspondence file. Maybe I'll get lucky. I'll start looking now.
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Post by Michael on Aug 24, 2008 11:09:36 GMT -5
Lee,
So far I haven't found anything which states that he ever made it back to NJ. I have Lewis's 12-37 report which is that last mention of him I have been able to find (so far). If you like I could scan it when I get back to my files.
There are a lot of mentions concerning various "Summit"(s). I have been, like you, noting the references. Not just Summit NJ but anything which mentions Summit. I will gather these references too, as I find them, if you are interested.
Still haven't found the specific letter you've referenced either, however, it does sound like one I have read. Chances are I have it or I read it at the Archives (and failed to make a copy). There is a complete FBI Correspondence Section where its probably located if I don't have it.
Obviously, I am still not completely organized. Part of the problem I have is which file to place the information I find in due to the fact each Letter, Report, Memo, etc. mentions so many different topics, dates, people, places, etc. that no matter where you file them they turn up "missing" when looking for topics they aren't filed under.
I created a cover sheet for each file which has an "IN FILE" and "SEE ALSO" section but I still have much that isn't filed under anything yet.
Just let me know and I will bring this stuff to your attention as I find it.
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Post by leeforman on Aug 24, 2008 14:55:24 GMT -5
That would be fantastic and much appreciated Michael - and if I can be of assistance also, please let me know. I am sure that the FBI has a number of files which are probably not well known - maybe some which have not been vetted. Attached - the date and some words in the right margin are cut-off in the copy - however, the date, based upon other markings, appears to be 1934 - which makes it of some significant interest. img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aug2402ct0.jpgHmm - trying to load the second page...
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Post by leeforman on Aug 24, 2008 14:57:19 GMT -5
Second page...http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aug2401lo7.jpg
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Post by Michael on Aug 26, 2008 16:33:28 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing that.... Usually, the letters forwarded to the NJSP were copies that had been typed up and mis-spellings underlined. So actual copies, such as the one you have posted for us, are rare as coming from the (F)BI to the NJSP. Here is the oldest report I could find on Spitz (so far):
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Post by leeforman on Aug 28, 2008 0:31:38 GMT -5
Great stuff - how are you accessing the data? What I would like to do is start writing a bunch of letters to the FBI for their files - on Nosovitsky, this Summit Persian Rug person, etc. It takes a bit of time, since you have to produce proofs of their death in order to get anything - however - hopefully with a colder case than I am used to - less redaction of the documents in question. Also have to front some cash if necessary. I plan to start in 2 weeks and see what I can dig up - I would very much like to know about any easily accessible site which can be pulled from. BTW - found an interesting article online with respect to Nosovitsky - I think he is a very good lead. www.weisbord.org/BulletinsThree.htmIf there is a Summit connection to him - it should get hot. I also want to contact Lehman - do you know him? I will see if the Summit Historical society can help - I photocopied quite a bit of what they had on record - but it was limited. The Persian Rug letter was one of the diamonds in the rough - and there had to have been a follow on report filed.
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Post by Michael on Aug 28, 2008 16:05:55 GMT -5
8 years of Archival Research - mostly at the NJSP in West Trenton. I've been to several other Archives as well and tend to make copies of everything I feel may be important. Joe has the entire Hoover file on Nosovitsky. I am not sure if anyone has checked it out but the search box at the bottom of this site is for Footnote. I have been finding some good stuff there. And I have been uploading some of my own material there as well....so its an interactive place to find new material. I've met Steve a couple of times at the NJSP Archives. He's a great guy with a wealth of knowledge about the case. Don't be so sure. The FBI was out of the case before the trial so they would turn stuff like this over to the NJSP. If Schwarzkopf was in then it probably got filed away. If Kimberling was in it still may have been filed away depending on the date since their man power was limited. If it was during Hoffman's "re-investigation" it may have been assigned to one of the various people assisting but I have to caution you - there were so many of these types of letters it would have been impossible to investigate them all. I would have to locate this letter either in my files or at the NJSP Archives in order to see if a follow-up was conducted.... And even then, sometimes, the follow-up wasn't attached and could have been filed elsewhere. Here's a report I posted previously you may be interested in - and I also uploaded it on Footnote:
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 18, 2019 22:17:55 GMT -5
Back to Spitz - who is called 'a shady Druggist from New Brunswick.' The Summit connection isn't 100% clear.
- The year is 1936 - the Boliard discovery won't be made for another 12 years. Spitz talks about the ransom money, which he has allegedly bought into on the cheap - but the money is not supposed to be located in Summit. The ransom money originally is in a farmhouse - near Asbury Park. Gets a bit weird here - as it sounds as if two men - allegedly Menk and Adolphe Blaustein, show him a proof of two $5 ransom notes. It is not clear that Spitz bought any - depending upon what story you believe? It sounds as if he provided an upfront sum of money [allegedly] to secure a share - while he went in search of additional funding.
Sequence - Spitz meets men in NY [edit - at 123rd St and Lenox - which is the location of the Harlem Club], then Newark [edit - the Robert Treat Hotel at 50 Park place] then they drive to a farmhouse near Asbury Park [edit - Route 33] - Spitz makes a deposit and receives nothing, then he meets them again in Newark when he has the rest of the money - but they raise the price - Spitz demands his money back - but never sees them again OR Spitz gets some ransom money.
Now the name Blaustein does raise possible flags - Ignace Blaustein originally coming under the radar as far back as March 18, 1932 - initially claiming to have been the driver of one of the cars used in the kidnapping. Blaustein is interesting - originally from Brooklyn, knows Newark streets and all the roads down to Hopewell. He renegs and seems to vanish from history - I do find it interesting that he has two brothers - would be interesting to know if one is named Adolphe - however - second problem arises - Spitz could have read this account in the newspaper - and known to drop the name Blaustein.
The one article speculates about a possible connection with stolen furs between Blaustein and Fisch. The article also speculates about a milk bottle, and involvement by "Becky" Sharp.
Spitz is there - the hotel and the boarding house on Walnut - but his whole gag seems to revolved around the ransom money being in a vault or safety deposit box in NY. The one article seems to imply that a well known and respected individual from Summit is in the mix here - and is in contact with Hoffman - and interestingly enough - this seems to have also been a last ditch attempt to show conspiracy to assist Hauptmann.
Who is the individual mentioned in the article? The 'late' Police Chief Edward T Nelson [edit - Chief from 1935-1938]? Is he the well known Summit resident?
Spitz is in jail for obtaining money on false pretenses - [edit - he is a forger - $891 of the balance of his $1K fine is paid to arrange for his release].
I managed to get a good photo of Blaustein which I will post when it arrives.
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 19, 2019 10:37:40 GMT -5
Found more on the Blaustein story - sorry the attachment is somewhat small - looks like it's also nonsense. Attachments:
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 20, 2019 18:19:49 GMT -5
Photo of Blaustein. The handwritten notation is odd. "Gave same as Betty Gow," or "Given same as Betty Gow" - ? Attachments:
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 25, 2019 10:22:00 GMT -5
I did some additional digging around and learned a few interesting things - for example, a case that was attempted to be made connecting Hauptmann to Nazis - but not the 'Bund' or the 'NSDAP' but the 'Friends of New Germany.' I had never before heard of this group. October 2, 1934 - Jewish Telegraphic Agency "In an effort to link Bruno Richard Hauptmann, Lindbergh kidnaping suspect under indictment here on an extortion charge growing out of the kidnaping, and his coterie of friends and acquaintances with the Friends of New Germany and other pro-Hitler organizations, Congressman Samuel Dickstein yesterday opened a series of hearings at his private offices, 70 Pine street. The net result of yesterday’s session was failure to establish such connection. A parade of Hauptmann witnesses who had previously been questioned by Federal and Bronx County officials appeared before the chairman of the subcommittee of the Congressional body investigating Nazi subversive activities in this country. DENY NAZI LINK All denied being connected with the Friends of New Germany. Among those questioned by Mr. Dickstein were Carl Henkel, generally considered one of Hauptmann’s best friends. Henkel is the man who introduce the late Isadore Fisch to the kidnaping suspect in the summer of 1932, months after the kidnaping took place. Fisch was named by Hauptmann as the owner of the ransom money found in Hauptmann’s garage. He has since been cleared by Federal agents and other officials working on the case of any Severe punishment for “non-Aryans” who join the Nazi party was threatened here today by President Buch of the Nazi People’s Court. The Nazi jurist announced that a new purge of the Nazi party was essential, since a number of Jews and “non-Aryans” had succeeded in becoming members of the party. Applicants for admission to the party who intentionally hid their Jewish descent would be severely punished, Buch declared." Fisch - I found what I thought would turn out to be a great lead - the Chrzanover Young Men’s Association. According to this article, again the Jewish Telegraph Agency, September 28, 1934: "Information indicating that Isidor Fisch, whose name was brought into the Lindbergh case when Bruno Richard Hauptmann declared Fisch gave him the ransom money found in the Hauptmann garage, was innocent of the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby is in the hands of the Department of Justice, P. M. Breed, special department operative studying Fisch’s activities admitted yesterday. Breed’s admission followed questioning of members of the Chrzanover Young Men’s Association, to which Fisch belonged from 1927 until his departure for Germany where he died last March. According to the testimony of his lodge brothers Fisch was a furrier but so poor in 1932 that he had to be given a sweater and ten dollars towards his passage to Germany."
Seems to contradicts the account by Uhlig.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 25, 2019 14:25:35 GMT -5
I did some additional digging around and learned a few interesting things - for example, a case that was attempted to be made connecting Hauptmann to Nazis - but not the 'Bund' or the 'NSDAP' but the 'Friends of New Germany.' I had never before heard of this group. October 2, 1934 - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
"In an effort to link Bruno Richard Hauptmann, Lindbergh kidnaping suspect under indictment here on an extortion charge growing out of the kidnaping, and his coterie of friends and acquaintances with the Friends of New Germany and other pro-Hitler organizations, Congressman Samuel Dickstein yesterday opened a series of hearings at his private offices, 70 Pine street. The net result of yesterday’s session was failure to establish such connection.
I've posted on this subject several times in the past, and have emphasized that there is no substantial evidence for the proposition that Hauptmann was connected at all to the Nazi Party or any of its affiliates. The fact that he was a friend and business associate of Fisch (whom Hauptmann almost certainly knew was Jewish) and had social and/or business connections with other German Jews (e.g., his landlords, the Rauches) pretty much proves that he was not a Nazi. Furthermore, to the best of our knowledge, there are no known writings or quotes from Hauptmann which are in any way suspicious of his harboring pro-Nazi views.
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 25, 2019 16:01:05 GMT -5
Thanks for that - I guess I should have included - if it's at all possible that there is a connection to Summit - and that some portion of the remaining Ransom is buried there, and that the Boiliard imitation Duncan Phyfe table brace was the legitimate template source for the Ransom note 'Singnatures' - then the note is more complicated than face value.
A few assumptions I had made - the true perpetrator of the crime must have an egotistical deep seated need to reveal some part of the truth and take credit. I guess I look at that as human nature - it's 100% an assumption - however, it is somewhat consistent with historical accounts and the human psychosis - it reveals a lot of truths, but ends in a false trail. I think the NSDAP is an intentional false trail.
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Post by leeforman2 on Jul 26, 2019 11:54:20 GMT -5
Lifted from another board "The enigmatic Kaiser Soze" ?
"Here is a funny tale about Fisch: First his name appears only a couple of times in the NYTimes between BRH getting arrested and during the Trial of the Century....BUT....2 of those times are in his support by his Friends: "Fisch Falsely Accused"! Fisch was a member of the Chrzanover Young Mens Association of New York, a Statewide jewish benevolent Society. The secretary of the organization said Fisch was "so poor" that when he sailed to Europe last year he owed $3.60 in dues which he promised to pay when he got back??? It gets better on Sept 25th 1934 The NYT reports....BrunoRHs charges threatened to besmirch the reputation of "an honest man"! Solomon Trager, 35 year old President of the Society says, of which Fisch was a member. And ...."When you see a man regularly over a periol od years you usually get to know whether he is "trustworthy" and I can vouch for Fisch!" Also, Henry Ulrich, a friend of Fisch, asked for $150 due Fisch's survivors under the associations benevolent plan. The first such claim ever received by the Association!" Having problems finding anything at all related to Chrzanover Young Mens Association - not under that name. Can't get this article - NYT subscription required.
FRIEND SEES FISCH FALSELY ACCUSED; Head of Mount Vernon Jewish Group Asserts Hauptmann Is Fabricating Story. NEVER HAD ANY MONEY German Linked to Ransom Often Lacked Cash to Buy Food, Associate Declares.
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.SEPT. 25, 1934
MOUNT VERNON, N.Y., Sept. 24. -- The alibi of Bruno Richard Hauptmann involving the name of the late Isador Fisch was branded today as an attempt to besmirch the reputation of an honest man by Solomon Trager, 35 years old, of 20 Munroe Street, Mount Vernon.
Got the Bronx article - attached. Bronxville Press, 25 September 1934
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 14:00:17 GMT -5
A few assumptions I had made - the true perpetrator of the crime must have an egotistical deep seated need to reveal some part of the truth and take credit. Hmmm. Now, why does this statement make me think of John F. Condon!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 14:11:21 GMT -5
"When you see a man regularly over a periol od years you usually get to know whether he is "trustworthy" and I can vouch for Fisch!" Got the Bronx article - attached. Bronxville Press, 25 September 1934 Thanks for posting that article. It is really important to keep in mind that Isidor Fisch appeared different ways to different people. There are those who thought him to be incredibly poor and then there were those who knew him as a businessman who invested money for them. It seems no matter what type of person you knew Fisch to be, he would always end up with some of your money!!
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Post by leeforman2 on Aug 24, 2019 15:15:20 GMT -5
Thanks Amy - yes - beginning to work that out.
Small update - and maybe it doesn't belong here - I could not find much of anything on the Chrzanover Young Men's Association - because it is not spelled correctly! It is CHRZANOWER - after Chrzanów Poland, and I think was so named after a horrific pogrom which took place there.
Solomon Trager [Sal] was the head of the lodge - he had emigrated from Vienna. Fisch from Germany. Trager and his family lived in Mt Vernon - which, by coincidence, was the site for two of the passed ransom note bills. Treger's son David went on to become a famous Brooklyn attorney and NY Judge - he is deceased. It may well be that Fisch maintained a charade with his lodge brothers that he was destitute, honest but unlucky. It would be VERY USEFUL to have the full list of his lodge brothers though - and cross reference them.
PM Breed was the special agent given the task of running down the Fisch Story - now even though he worked for the US Justice Department - it appears that his archived report is not held by the National Archives! Not unless it appears among the FBI files on the Lindbergh case - in which case, it would appear in this box:
Box 17 - Section 85
Scaduto saw the files - his reference is as follows: P.M. Breed - September 23 and 27, October 1, 1934. "Copies of all of these transcripts are in my possession; copies may also be found in the files of the Bronx DA and New York police.
I plan to subscribe to the NY Times and then download as many articles as I can on Fisch - and then cancel. I'll probably end up loading some stuff on this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 7:17:15 GMT -5
PM Breed was the special agent given the task of running down the Fisch Story - now even though he worked for the US Justice Department - it appears that his archived report is not held by the National Archives! So, Lee, I have been looking into Fisch at the archives. I went through my Fisch file last night and I will share with you P. M. Breed's report of his interviews with some of the Chrzanower Assoc. members. These members did believe that Fisch was destitute. I think that the first person Breed mentions, David Brown, a fellow furrier, although not an official member of this association but attended meetings, explains why Fisch was purposely "destitute". I think it important to keep in mind that most of these members never associated with Fisch outside of these association meetings and have no real knowledge of his other activities. This report I am sharing is at the NJSP archives. If you just check the files designated as "Fisch" you won't find this report in them. This report was in a Hauptmann file. It is stuff like this that underscores what Michael has always preached - reports can be spread out over more than one investigation. You can't just stop after going through certain files. There is still more to find in other places. Here is Special Agent P.M. Breed's report. There are four pages. Sorry, but there is no mention of a Solomon Trager in this report. Not sure what document the reference to Trager is in. I must not have seen it. imgur.com/zfcEWp4 Page One imgur.com/5bUWoJW Page Two imgur.com/sPTpasG Page Three imgur.com/rpYSgJX Page Four
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Post by leeforman2 on Sept 4, 2019 20:04:43 GMT -5
WOW! Thank you so much Amy - that is amazing! What an incredible Jekyll and Hyde individual. I would love to know the total amount of money Fisch sent home and the reason - beyond anything obvious. I will get the Solomon Trager article and post it. If I had to even guess at this behavior - it's that Fisch was operating as a criminal, with some legitimate business - but needed to maintain a supply of honest and reputable characters in the event he was ever caught - or his reputation called into question. Just stunned. PM Breed didn't do the sort of detailed report that I would have expected either - but seems that there would be no gains here anyway - as this was the part of his life which was a complete fraud.
The more I look at this - the uglier it gets - for Fisch. These don't belong here - but I don't want to continually create threads - no reason to post Ellis Sanborn's photo - just wonder about the connections. Maine - the morrow family place in North Haven, the timing, and who the chauffeur may be. Not helping with the Summit connection - but maybe it will.
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Post by leeforman2 on Sept 4, 2019 22:32:23 GMT -5
Hey - I made trooper. By bizarre coincidence I answer my own question with the same article - go figure. Anyway - here it is - NYT Sept 25, 1934.
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Post by leeforman2 on Sept 4, 2019 22:39:03 GMT -5
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