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Post by Michael on Aug 4, 2008 16:03:40 GMT -5
This is true. No blue or red ink. No pen which matched what wrote them either. On the other hand, Jafsie did like mixing up inks and was quick to explain what the symbol was all about. As we see in Lloyd's book, C. Tihy was a Civil War Vet....this too is something I would expect from a Civil War buff - like Condon - not Hauptmann (p237). Lot's of links, like you said, if you are looking for them.
These alternatives aren't so "fantastic." Not saying they are correct, but when you look at Nosovitsky, for example, back in 1920 he was a "double-agent" working for at least two different Governments spying on a Communist, who was thought to be a Spy himself. In the end, this Communist was brought to trial and Noso defended him against the allegations made by yet another Spy. At the time, the (F)BI had no idea if the Communist in question was spying for another U.S. Agency or not. By the way, it was Noso who had forged a passport for this person.
In the meantime, the former head of the (F)BI's Radical Division in NYC, who had resigned in 1919, was said to have actually joined up with the British Intelligence Agency and may have been the one who introduced Noso to them.
Now this is just the tip of the iceberg and certainly sounds fantastic - but it was going on - and no one seems to know who was working for whom or where their true allegiance was.
After reading the Immortalists does anyone doubt Lindy's obsessions in this field? Again, it doesn't prove anything other then its no so far fetched.
I don't write off the fact the note was written the night of the crime, but I do have to say I can't believe they didn't expect to write something if that was the case. Perhaps to brag about what they had done if to steal and not "snatch?" I must admit it is hard for me to break out of the idea this was done rapidly right at 8PM and before Lindy came home blowing his horn to create a time in everyone's head.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 4, 2008 16:33:25 GMT -5
Sorry Joe, I knew the mention of the LKC's favorite piece of revival furniture might prove exasperating to you! Just trying to appease our resident hoaxster. Well, do you think it not possible? It really isn't a stumbling block for me. For one thing, there exists the possibility that the holes were made independently and were not originally a part of the symbol. We do know that they were made first. That in itself may be an important clue. As for the ink, is it really inconceivable that an independent contractor like Hauptmann would not keep this in his vehicle, especially given his penchant for recording expenses? Would it be surprising to find a ballpoint pen in his car had the crime occurred 30 years later? then there is the method of making the circles to consider. Why, I wonder, did a man well versed in mechanical drawing and in possession of all types of tools choose to use the bottle cap. Not that it doesn't do the job mind you. But I would have expected him to have made something specifically for the job. It's already odd that he felt the need for this signature elaboration in the first place. If made pre-hand, wouldn't he have the luxury to do so? Why is he playing with ink caps? Why would it not be easily created on the fly? What's so complex about it? Does not the Nursery note show evidence of sloppy ink work? It's certainly not as neat as the others. Perhaps you are right. It certainly doesn't sit well with me. I have looked at an awful lot of ransom notes. I have also looked at an awful lot of kidnappings. It's pretty hard to understand why we are missing that which is usually present. Now I am 100% with you on the issue of conspiracy. With the scant nature of the evidence of planning it's a no brainer that there just weren't a mob a people in on this. Although I can easily see the fascination with these complex schemes and criminal conspiracies, the truth is that they all sink under their own weight. The options here are limited. That in turn has given me cause to consider another possibility; that this crime was not supposed to be a kidnapping. Michael, if you don't consider some of these other "theories" fantastic, then more power to you! You are certainly more optimistic than I. Look closely at some of these "agents" like Nosovitsky and their handlers. It's not like 007. The very fact that you know who Nosovitsky is pretty much shows that they were not quite the stuff of novels. And then there is the bureaucracy and politics to consider as well. Have you ever read Blood on the Moon? There really are no secrets unless only one person knows them!
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Aug 5, 2008 17:28:55 GMT -5
Yes, the flashback was a bit upsetting. I even had to shake off a subsequent image of the kidnapping gang sitting in a semi-circle in the Mt. Rose woods on folding wooden chairs using the same table brace to determine the best burial location while drinking their coffee. Come to think of it, haven't we alredy solvet this cace?
Well, I wouldn't call it impossible, just highly unlikely that the nursery note writer would have undertaken this kind of exercise while on the property and ostensibly in the act of committing the kind of crime where it would not have been to his advantage to have to linger any longer than necessary.
Are you sure he used a bottle cap? I've heard somewhere it might have been the raised glass circle on the bottom of an ink bottle. In any case, I think like the ransom note holes, it was simply the product of a common household item, and an indication of the resourcefulness of the designer.
The whole nursery note has the appearance of sloppiness. But when you break it down, the writing is clearly designed to deceive and the writer probably believed the only way to do this was to make it look like crap but still legible enough to understand. Here I think he wrote left-handed and / or held the pen halfway up the barrel like a piece of chalk in order to achieve a less fluild stroke. The symbol is not great, but it appears to me to have taken more effort and discipline. I cannot see this nursery note, especially the symbol having been created on the grounds at Hopewell.
What do you think originally brought him to the Lindbergh estate?
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Post by Michael on Aug 5, 2008 18:23:08 GMT -5
Really though...what we do know is because of Noso's own big mouth and the FOI. If it weren't for either I don't think we would know too much about him. In fact, I am quite sure there is much we don't. Do we know everything? I doubt it. Even the FBI didn't and he was working for them (or at least they thought he was). Was he really working for the Russians? Or for Scotland Yard? Could he have been working for all three at the same time deciding who to assist and when to assist them?
Could someone be that savvy as to pull that off? It appears so.
I've also done a lot of research in order to know what little I do know. For example, I was able to find his CI #. I will give anyone who knows this or can find out - 10 Karma points - maybe its known and isn't such a great discovery.
Anyone know?
Could Noso have, through his networking and various contacts, hired people to perpetrate this crime? If anyone says "no" then I would say they really don't know enough about him. Was Behn correct in the motive?
For me there is obviously more then Hauptmann involved. I can't accept Hauptmann as the "brains" behind it. There's a bigger force behind it.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 5, 2008 18:57:51 GMT -5
That's my point. We are just getting at it from completely opposite positions. You don't think Hauptmann had the brains to have pulled it off.
I don't think he needed them!
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Post by Agamenon on Aug 6, 2008 17:09:23 GMT -5
"After reading the Immortalists does anyone doubt Lindy's obsessions in this field? Again, it doesn't prove anything other then its not so far fetched"
there is more than one way to consider immortality:
1. Scientifically--cancer cells in tissue culture are oft considered immortal--eg they are defective in regulation and will reproduce indefinitely in vitro
2. Spiritually--death, rebirth and regeneration--eg the immortality of the soul.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 6, 2008 17:50:22 GMT -5
3. Become the subject of a forum with endless debate!
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Post by Michael on Aug 10, 2008 8:03:18 GMT -5
May 6, 1932
It is respectfully requested that the supervisors and wardens of all prisons, county workhouses and jails in your state be contacted and a request made of them that all inmates received by them since March 1st, 1932 be carefully checked as to their whereabouts the night of March 1st. This may seem like an unusual request, however, it is known that criminals committing a major crime frequently commit a minor crime so they may be incarcerated during the period when an investigation is being conducted, to avoid being connected with the crime.
This information is desired in connection with the search for the murderers of the Lindbergh baby and it will be greatly appreciated if any suspicious circumstances are reported to these headquarters without delay.
Expressing appreciation for any cooperation we may be afforded in this matter I beg to remain,
Very truly respectfully yours,
H. Norman Schwarzkopf, Colonel and Superintendent, New Jersey State Police. Is he saying that the Criminals purposely commit a crime in order to be arrested and sent to prison, is he saying those who commit these major crimes usually commit minor crimes as well, or is he implying both? It doesn't seem far fetched that someone would have been picked up during the investigation, or, as Condon said, actually killed.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Nov 30, 2008 8:32:18 GMT -5
The Nursery Note is the Rosetta stone of this case. It holds the key that unlocks the entire crime.
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Post by Michael on Dec 2, 2008 6:47:38 GMT -5
Have any new ideas you are willing to share
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Dec 3, 2008 18:43:25 GMT -5
Unfortunately,nothing that hasn't been said already. Regardless of what position one takes, this first note holds the secret of the planning and execution of the crime. It may also hold more information about it's creator than what appears upon first sight.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Dec 4, 2008 6:08:35 GMT -5
I see a number of things within that brief ransom note, aside from the writer's Germanic influence, poor spelling and the implication that there is more than one individual involved. Granted, many of these observations can probably be attributed, in part to what we actually know about the writer, Richard Hauptmann. For what it's worth, my own two cents:
Handwriting - attempt to disguise normal style - possibly written with wrong hand and/or pen held in awkward fashion to exaggerate subtleties of each stroke - ego, arrogance and high level of self-confidence shows in decision not to use pasted newspaper letters or typewriter for such an important targeted individual
Dear Sir Salutation - formal and overly embellished - strong ego - conscious effort to establish a foothold and present himself on a self-perceived equal level with Lindbergh
The Symbol - punched hole locations to confirm identity in subsequent notes - overly elaborate and seemingly-extraneous artwork denotes ego of the writer and level of thought given to the plan, specifically the targeted child - blue rings represent Hauptmann and Lindbergh side by side and equal in stature = both individuals now share the child (red sphere) in the middle
Slurred Ink - whether intentional or not, denotes writer's desire to communicate above and beyond a more professional presentation - shows a degree of arrogance - writer can be a perfectionist when it suits him - someone with an Achilles Heel that he cannot recgonize and which may strike him down unexpectedly
Focus on Ransom Amount - the first thing mentioned and establishes the writer's level of greed and love of money - attention to detail and analysis in the breakdown of the specific denominations presented
Brief Instructional Content - says what he has to say for now until he sees if Lindbergh complies with demand to deal in discretion and not call in police - also a subconscious indication this (brevity) was meant to portend a quick snatch and return of the child (dead or alive) for ransom payment - not originally intended to go beyond the 2 to 4 days stated - a subconscious appreciation on the part of the writer that the impact of the discovery that their child is missing would require little reinforement to spur the Lindberghs' actions to recovering their child in the way the kidnapper demanded - also an uneasiness on the part of the writer, due to his relative position in life, about directly addressing Lindbergh in this opening note
Unaddressed Envelope - fatal error to the writer's plans in that he gave no outward sign that Lindbergh must deal with him in private - further indication of the writer's sense of superiority in assuming Lindbergh would open the envelope without first seeking help - subsequent notes and carrying out of the plan of ransom for dead child underscores writer's high level of risktaking and abilities to adapt plan in midstream, until Achilles Heel strikes
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on May 24, 2009 13:25:11 GMT -5
It's interesting that if one removes only one line from the note it ceases to be specifically about a kidnapping.
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Post by vovina on Feb 20, 2010 17:11:52 GMT -5
For document historians sometimes the " how" of a given item may yield equally interesting results as the " what ": the overt information transmission. Gardner on pg.44 describes the linguistic structure of the notes as " typically German ". But he fails to tell us what type of German dialect is being transliterated into English. In Ransom Note #1 ( pg.27 ) lines 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 taken together produces a cadence differing from formal nothern German or Basel Swiss high german transliterated into English ( see Kant or Burkhardt translations for example ). The use of the English " for " in distinct, and opposed, ways in lines 6 & 8 combined with the use of " were " for the correct "where " points to the possibilty that phonetic yiddish, rather than formal german, is being transliterated. In Ransom Note #2 (pg.44) the use of " note " for " not " in lines1, 5 & 29 , the peculiar phrase " keeping care " in line 14, the phrase " was made aus " in line 19, the use of "tacke" for track in line 26, and the use of "nonmer" for number in line 27 are yiddish transliterations. In Ransom note#3 ( to Condon pg.65) again the use of " note " for not in line 1 and the bizarre " senter of proch " in line 8 ( after the correct spelling of Porch in line 7 ) provides other possible confirmations. If one objects that these items are simple mispellings due to haste and/or poor grammar due to unfamilarity with written English, one must then explan the systematic quality of these slips of the pen - particularly when they replicate the pronunciation and cadence of a particular german dialect: in this case yiddish. Finally, after a long reading of the footnotes to Chapter 12 of Dr. Ariel Toaff's " Blood Passover " ,concerning the work " Toledot Yeshu " where a judeo/hebraic dialect of medieval german yiddish is used, I might hazard a guess that the yiddish type in the ransom notes is derived from the Askenzai dialect.
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mairi
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Post by mairi on Feb 21, 2010 7:23:08 GMT -5
Fascinating, Vovina!!
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 2, 2010 1:06:50 GMT -5
Jack For Vovina:
So, to cut it short, your conclusion of the writer of the ransom notes is an ancient Jew?
What about the obvious Americanisms? Is this ancient Jew Americanized?
Why, specifically (what words) would the writer need a knowledge of Yiddish or ancient Germanic? and why would they necessarily flop that in?
Could a person of Richard Hauptmann's ability have written the notes?
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Post by rick3 on Apr 2, 2010 18:01:56 GMT -5
Jack For Vovina: So, to cut it short, your conclusion of the writer of the ransom notes is an ancient Jew?What about the obvious Americanisms? Is this ancient Jew Americanized? Why, specifically (what words) would the writer need a knowledge of Yiddish or ancient Germanic? and why would they necessarily flop that in? Could a person of Richard Hauptmann's ability have written the notes? Bungling the Lindbergh Kidnap Case....Al Dunlap: Startling Detective Feb 1933 "His...(albert osbourne) report indicated that amoung other things, the original ransom note was written by the same hand as all the notes to Jafsie;? ...that the symbol was made by the same instrument and that the writer of the notes was of German and Hebraic extraction". page 59/ I think that means we are looking for a German jew? kabish? Got milk? Who could that be.....surely NOT BRH Jack!
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Post by vovina on Apr 2, 2010 19:42:10 GMT -5
Jack, the writer of the note is not an ancient jew, merely someone steeped in the phonetic and cadence structure of the type of yiddish derived from the Askenzai dialect. The americanisms you note are the way american english gets transposed as a second language - " slang " and random vocabulary dropped along the way. If BRH is the writer of the note, then there should be evidence of his familarity with yiddish in other documents. If the writer is not BRH, then it could be either a native yiddish speaker or a German intelligence operative who wanted the authorities to think Jews kidnapped Charlie. Documentary evidence is required here to verify/falsify the hypotheses. Rick - thanks for the Dunlap citation which adds some slight weight to my less than expert linguistic deconstruction of the notes - which unfortunately weren't in Norman French or Middle English legal terminolgy where I would feel more confident in my conclusions ( LOL ! ).
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Post by rick3 on Apr 3, 2010 8:22:16 GMT -5
Jack, the writer of the note is not an ancient jew, merely someone steeped in the phonetic and cadence structure of the type of yiddish derived from the Askenzai dialect. The americanisms you note are the way american english gets transposed as a second language - " slang " and random vocabulary dropped along the way. If BRH is the writer of the note, then there should be evidence of his familarity with yiddish in other documents. If the writer is not BRH, then it could be either a native yiddish speaker or a German intelligence operative who wanted the authorities to think Jews kidnapped Charlie. Documentary evidence is required here to verify/falsify the hypotheses. Rick - thanks for the Dunlap citation which adds some slight weight to my less than expert linguistic deconstruction of the notes - which unfortunately weren't in Norman French or Middle English legal terminolgy where I would feel more confident in my conclusions ( LOL ! ). Draco/ dont thank me/ thank Al Dunlap for huge stones! It never occured to me that the Hebrew mentioned could be the cadence or slang of the content--thats very good! I always thought it was the connection to Jehovah and the hebrew letter yod...see here:{the second secret meaning of highfields} web.archive.org/web/20051221161801/http://www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/high+fields.html#Vril, 1. copy the whole link 2. click on red part 3. paste in whole link! Voila! it works/ its like a board game? {if not Suecam will fix it!][links give me a pain] sorry!
II. For Easter: "The Vesica Piscis, and its name, is intimately connected with the discovery, by Augustus Cæsar in the century preceding our Era, as narrated by Baronius, of a prophecy in one of the Sibylline books, foretelling “a great event coming to pass in the birth of One who should prove to be the true ‘King of Kings,’ and Augustus Cæsar therefore dedicated an altar in his palace to this unknown God.” Eusebius and St. Augustine inform us that the first letter of each line of the verses from the Erythrean Sibyl containing this prophecy, formed the word ICQUS: (a fish), and were taken as representing the sentence: 'Ihsouj CristÕj Qeoà 'UiÕj Swt»r (“Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Saviour”)." Science and the Infinite"
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2010 9:15:29 GMT -5
Don't you think those are pretty bad renditions of sig runes? Also the point of the Schutzstaffel SS insignia is lost when the insignia is split. BTW, the Hoax page contains some major factual errors.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 3, 2010 10:45:24 GMT -5
I'd like to make a suggestion regarding the ransom note "singnature". It's an extremely important piece of evidence to anyone truly interested in this crime. And while the theorizing about it's origin is interesting, I think it would be more fruitful if those interested would take a few moments, a piece of scrap paper, and some ink and try to reproduce it. It's not critical to be exacting, just try to get as close as possible. I think you will find it an interesting exercise. After your done, post your impressions. I believe certain characteristics will become apparent.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 3, 2010 16:52:40 GMT -5
Lordy: I have experience with Yiddish - most of my best friends are blacks and Jews - and I'm Irish!
To say that the wording of the notes was slanted towards something so obscure that a scientist would have to pick it up is beyond belief. What would be the point? If Jews did the kidnapping why not just throw in a couple hutskas into the notes or tell the reader you don't want ham sandwiches served at the ransom payoff, and settled.
Look at what Kevkon posts above and think about that. Though I do buy the yods, in general the rest of the crime is very overthought.
Most important is that the kidnapper(s) are unprofessional and for some reason not in a hurry - even with a baby sitting in the woods waiting to be found. Leads one to believe that far from some international Jewish or whatever conspiracy - the Lindbergh kidnapper(s) are simply incredibly STUPID! Certainly lucky they didn't get caught earlier, but on the other hand it's remarkable they were caught at all.
It's a fairly typical crime - check the cold case files for your own town - most crimes simply go unsolved!
The holes in the paper which are the singnature matches were used by the German Army during WWI for messages - Richard was in the German Army during WWI. Is this a duh?
There are some questions about the crime - mostly what it seems the U.S. Government was afraid would be international problems, but they never happened!
So Charles went on to be what he became as did Anne and Betty Gow and Richard and Anna and Kloppelburgh and so they all was.
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Post by vovina on Apr 3, 2010 20:13:01 GMT -5
Jack : The analysis of the note language was an attempt to detect the german dialect which the writer of the note blended with their second language English, much the same way as an analysis of ink type would exclude certain types of writing utensil combinations. As stated in the initial posting, such an analysis is not about the content of the information overtly communicated, but rather is about what information is revealed by the mechanics of writing in a second language. And any conclusions that can be drawn from such a preliminary sketch would have to be verified/falsified by other documents and direct physical evidence.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 3, 2010 21:59:39 GMT -5
Vovina:
Germanic - what about other influences in the notes? Jewish, what's the difference - it's just something arbitrarily put into the notes perhaps even to mislead. For example, I'm Irish and I send you a note -
Meets me at the office.
Though the term "meets" is idiosyncranystically only to me are you going to say that from that term you define the writer as unintelligent or perhaps bred to a certain dialect ("meets" would veere towards Slavic) so from your determination the writer is unintelligent Slavic - while the writer is actually moderately(?) intelligent Irish?
Take another example - the salutations are - "Dear Sir"
Jewish do not signify man as a high being - their intiial proscusions are to God, such as glory to..., how ya doin, or God is great, what's up with Mary?
I don't rule out Jewish influences as being a factor in the crime - I don't rule out anything - but I do rule out long winded BS when there is absolutely no call for it.
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Post by vovina on Apr 3, 2010 22:36:58 GMT -5
Jack: the analysis tries to answer the question posed by Gardner's remarks on pg.44 - the notes exhibit, according to Gardner, a germanic structure. All that I attempted was to try out dialect modeling - which is not long winded BS, but modeing also used, for example, in FBI profiling when written materials show the english being used is the secondary language form. Any conclusions from a preliminary analysis will have to be verified/falsified by other facts- both documentary or physical.
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 4, 2010 0:16:55 GMT -5
To my mind FBI profiling says the mad bomber will be found in a three piece suit which it did say, and which he very wasn't.So you have your issues and reality has ours.
Depending on peofilinistics is a real stretch beyond investigating and figuring out a crime. As Mark Fuhrman once said, "what did we ever do before DNA?" Well detectives walked and asked questions and figured things out.
So you can say so much junk about a crime and perhaps even get yourself into the newspapers, but that doesn't go an inch towards solving it.
And colums of garp that means nothing don't help solve anything. Lets see some facts and hard evidence!
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Post by vovina on Apr 4, 2010 6:06:07 GMT -5
Jack - FBI agent Robert K. Ressler in his " I Have Lived In The Monster " used linguistic analysis on the notes of Japanese child-murder Miyazaki to isolate pun construction (pg.66) and used standard document historian techniques with military records in three " post traumatic stress "cases (pg.15 -34 ). So apparently there were other techniques available besides dectectives walking and talking to aid in criminal investigation. And historical puzzle-solving is not identical to police work.
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Post by Michael on Apr 4, 2010 8:39:47 GMT -5
If there's one person on the Planet Earth who absolutely knows what he is talking about - its Robert Ressler. Former FBI (VICAP). I heard an interview with him one night concerning his book "Whoever Fights Monsters" back in 1993. I was so impressed that I bought it for my brother who was, at the time, doing an internship with the NJSP's version of VICAP (then known as HEAT).
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jack7
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Post by jack7 on Apr 4, 2010 8:46:06 GMT -5
Vovina:
I have not read "I Have Lived In The Monster," but shall do so. Hope it's at the library because I'm cheap!
The FBI profiling I have so far seen, an eighth grader could easily do and it's costing our taxpayers plenty for these suits to wander around looking important.
Very true that investigating olden crimes is much different than that of a guy found dead down the street. But things continue to happen - new things were recently discovered about Jack The Ripper (over 100 years ago) but profiling had nothing to do with the findings - were discovered through a lot of analysis and legwork.
I am hopefull that someday a smoking gun will be found regarding Lindbergh, but if you look above, at what Kevkon, Michael, Joe, Steve Romeo, Rick, Mairi and yourself already know about that crime - what could be left to be known? - yet to many there still are questions.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 4, 2010 9:57:38 GMT -5
Here is an interesting aspect of the note "singnatures"; why does the order in how they were constructed change from the Nursery note? Wouldn't you expect them all to be made the same?
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