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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 9:11:21 GMT -5
Something interesting that I do remember is that Springer wrote Frederick Allis of Amherst College to see if Carl D. ever attended there. He did not. I did not know this. So was Springer doing this on his own suspicions or was he asked by LE to do this checking?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 9:14:17 GMT -5
Thank you, Amy and Michael, for all your information. I will study the data and get back to you if anything new emerges. The two photos of the Geissler Florist Shop can be found on the internet (Google) using carl geissler lindbergh as the prompt. These two photos show a man who looks very much like Charles Lindbergh. I took a look at those photos. That is Lindbergh in the pictures. Interesting that there was a Geissler in these pictures. He was a minister. He does spell his surname different from the Giesslers who centered largely in the Faulkner investigation. Please let us know if you find any additional info you can share.
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metje
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Post by metje on Apr 22, 2020 1:14:27 GMT -5
If the man in the picture is actually Lindbergh, then one would assume that the woman next to him is Anne, his wife--who does not look happy. If the minister is a man whose name happens to be Giessler, then one might conclude that the occasion is a funeral or burial. The setting is odd but would be appropriate (probably) for a cemetery or crypt. I had thought that the setting might be part of the florist shop, but the flowers and foliage could indicate that a funeral or burial had just taken place. I wonder what the location could be. Thanks again for your help.
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Post by Guest on Apr 22, 2020 6:26:11 GMT -5
If the man in the picture is actually Lindbergh, then one would assume that the woman next to him is Anne, his wife--who does not look happy. If the minister is a man whose name happens to be Giessler, then one might conclude that the occasion is a funeral or burial. The setting is odd but would be appropriate (probably) for a cemetery or crypt. I had thought that the setting might be part of the florist shop, but the flowers and foliage could indicate that a funeral or burial had just taken place. I wonder what the location could be. Thanks again for your help. As it states in the descriptions of the photos, they were taken in Guatemala in 1927, before Lindbergh dated Anne. Lindbergh was there to be greeted by Arthur H. Geissler, one of the men in the photos, who was the ambassador to that country. The NY Giesslers were not related, as the different spellings of the names clearly indicate. Besides, Anne would be upset to be compared to the lady in the photos, as that woman is much older than Anne's 21 years in 1927 (had she been there).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 6:49:27 GMT -5
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 22, 2020 7:42:20 GMT -5
Thank you for your quick response, Amy. Let me explain my interest in Carl D. Giessler. I just came across pictures of the florist shop where the Giesslers (father and son) worked. The pictures show a group of people, presumably connected to the shop, and one bears a striking resemblance to Charles Lindbergh. At first I though he was actually Charles. Dr. Dudley Schoenfeld, a psychiatrist in NY, was quoted by Jim Fisher in profiling the kidnapper: "The kidnapper would be physically similar to Lindbergh." This man would see Lindbergh as "someone to defeat, outsmart, and humiliate" because he was so successful while the kidnapper occupied a "low station in life" and was "angered and frustrated by his status." Obviously, this is not enough evidence to accuse anyone, but the similarity in appearance one indication. Carl D. lived near Dr. Condon, and one gang member knew Condon or knew of him. Since Carl D. lived near Condon for several years in the Bronx, he would know the area well, which included the two cemeteries used as a meeting point. Actually, the florist shop at which the Giesslers worked maintained one of the cemeteries and planted flowers and shrubs there. So that's the reason for the inquiry about Carl D's personality. There is a piece missing in the kidnapping puzzle (or more than one), and this could be one of the missing pieces. Thanks much for any help you can find. Correcting an earlier post: Those two photos posted are NOT of the Giessler family's floral shop. Rather, they were taken in Guatemala c. 1928. The tall thin man with the light hair in both photos is identified as Charles A. Lindbergh in the captions. One of the other men in each of the photos is the U.S. emissary to Guatemala named Arthur Geissler. (No connection to Carl D. Geissler, in so far as we know.) The woman standing next to Lindbergh in the photos is NOT Anne Morrow, but the wife of another American diplomat named Hawkes. Separately, I don't necessarily agree with Dr. Schoenfeld's statement that the "kidnapper would be physically similar to Lindbergh." I do however see some validity in the rest of the brief profile Schoenfeld laid out above. If one were to consider Carl D. Giessler as a suspect, it might be interesting to see if any of Carl D's handwriting specimens were examined by LE and compared to the ransom notes, the "J. J. Faulkner" deposit slip, and the "J. J. Faulkner" letter to Gov. Hoffman. Or if not, could any Carl D. handwriting specimens possibly be obtained today and compared?
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Post by Michael on Apr 22, 2020 8:33:30 GMT -5
I did not know this. So was Springer doing this on his own suspicions or was he asked by LE to do this checking? He was asked by the Police: ibb.co/Lz2DxSK[The NY Giesslers were not related, as the different spellings of the names clearly indicate. Besides, Anne would be upset to be compared to the lady in the photos, as that woman is much older than Anne's 21 years in 1927 (had she been there). I don't agree with the idea that they aren't related based solely on the spelling. Just look at Sharp/Sharpe as one example. Different spelling of last names happened all the time for many reasons and it has been my experience that its one of the many pitfalls as it relates to research into this case. For example, some people purposely misspelled their names which was eventually adopted. Or others misspelled it to the point where that became the accepted version. Then we have the example that I often give concerning the Schlacht investigation. I saw what appeared to be something that stopped short. My problem was that I did not know the family's name morphed into Slack during the investigation. This either occurred because they "Americanized" it or police misspelled it. Either way it remains "Slack" to this day. So we could not say they aren't related to the "Schlachts" due to the spelling under these circumstances. Just a small point to avoid a potentially big problem and in no way is meant to say that the Giesslers are/were related to the Geisslers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 12:54:26 GMT -5
I did not know this. So was Springer doing this on his own suspicions or was he asked by LE to do this checking? He was asked by the Police: Thanks for the document. It shows how thorough the police were being in their investigation of the Giessler family in trying to find any possible link between the Giesslers and the Lindbergh kidnapping case. The Faulkner investigation is something I want to look over in the future when I can spend time focused just on that. There is so much there! I certainly can appreciate this after spending a lot of time with the archive reports and encountered name misspellings numerous times. However, in the case of Arthur Geissler being related to the Giessler family in the Faulkner investigation, I am not so sure that they are linked. I could spend time running a check through ancestry to find out one way or the other but right now I have other things on my plate that need my attention. Maybe someone else could check to see if there is a link so we could know for sure.
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Post by hurtelable on Apr 22, 2020 14:07:02 GMT -5
Can't figure out why Lindbergh or the NJSP got the notion that Carl D. Giessler might have gone to Amherst College. Giessler did NOT have the kind of professional occupation that one might ordinarily think that an Amherst guy would have. Amherst was quite a prestigious exclusive kind of college, especially in that era. (Amherst, BTW, was the late Dwight Morrow's alma mater, so one can understand why Springer, Morrow's secretary, would have connections to Amherst to consult.)
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Post by Guest on Apr 22, 2020 20:46:52 GMT -5
He was asked by the Police: Thanks for the document. It shows how thorough the police were being in their investigation of the Giessler family in trying to find any possible link between the Giesslers and the Lindbergh kidnapping case. The Faulkner investigation is something I want to look over in the future when I can spend time focused just on that. There is so much there! I certainly can appreciate this after spending a lot of time with the archive reports and encountered name misspellings numerous times. However, in the case of Arthur Geissler being related to the Giessler family in the Faulkner investigation, I am not so sure that they are linked. I could spend time running a check through ancestry to find out one way or the other but right now I have other things on my plate that need my attention. Maybe someone else could check to see if there is a link so we could know for sure.
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Post by Guest on Apr 22, 2020 20:56:00 GMT -5
Giessler and Geissler are two different German surnames. They are not misspellings of one name. The Gardening Giesslers were one family, hailing from Thuringia, the Guatemalan Geisslers were another, hailing from Saxony. No need to spend any more time trying to link them.
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Post by Michael on Apr 23, 2020 9:13:20 GMT -5
Giessler and Geissler are two different German surnames. They are not misspellings of one name. The Gardening Giesslers were one family, hailing from Thuringia, the Guatemalan Geisslers were another, hailing from Saxony. No need to spend any more time trying to link them. You seem to be confused about my point. I never said they were related. Let me try this again in an attempt to clear up the confusion.... You wrote: "The NY Giesslers were not related, as the different spellings of the names clearly indicate.."
I responded: "I don't agree with the idea that they aren't related based solely on the spelling."
So you see, my point is that the "different spellings of the names" does NOT "clearly indicate this" as you have asserted. That is because there are many reasons for names to be spelled differently and so that alone does not eliminate them from being a completely different family. In this case it appears you've done the research into this matter but that's not what you said. Regardless, I don't know what information could be gleaned even if they had been cousins, distant or otherwise. And so, I am not arguing that they are related just that spelling cannot be used as the only factor in determining this.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 12, 2020 6:59:55 GMT -5
While researching another topic, I discovered that the name "Geissler" appears many times in a list of residents in Buenos Aires, Argentina. After Germany's surrender in 1945, quite a number of Nazi officials fled to Buenos Aires for protection (eg. Adolf Eichmann). The connection to the Lindbergh kidnapping lies in the Nazi Party signature appended to the message attached to the table found in Plainfield, New Jersey. The message was written in German on what resembles the template made for the signature of the kidnappers. The political interest indicated is thought to be part of a hoax connected to the table, but perhaps the anti-Semitism clue is not a hoax but instead a very real (and strong) political interest among relatives of the Geissler family. Has the handwriting of the father and son Geisslers been compared with the handwriting on the Plainfield table?
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 12, 2020 7:30:08 GMT -5
In addition some of the Buenos Aires Geisslers came from Hamburg originally. The first line in the shanty quoted in the table mentions the city of Hamburg.
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Post by hurtelable on Jun 12, 2020 20:04:52 GMT -5
While researching another topic, I discovered that the name "Geissler" appears many times in a list of residents in Buenos Aires, Argentina. After Germany's surrender in 1945, quite a number of Nazi officials fled to Buenos Aires for protection (eg. Adolf Eichmann). The connection to the Lindbergh kidnapping lies in the Nazi Party signature appended to the message attached to the table found in Plainfield, New Jersey. The message was written in German on what resembles the template made for the signature of the kidnappers. The political interest indicated is thought to be part of a hoax connected to the table, but perhaps the anti-Semitism clue is not a hoax but instead a very real (and strong) political interest among relatives of the Geissler family. Has the handwriting of the father and son Geisslers been compared with the handwriting on the Plainfield table? I've seen quite a lot of material on the Nazi era in Germany 1933-45 and the periods preceding and following it. But I do not recall a Nazi bigwig with the surname Giessler nor Geisler. So my intuitive guess here is simply that Giessler is just a common German name and that the Giesslers in Buenos Aires are of no particular connection to the LKC. Nor would the Geislers in the New York area nor the US diplomat Giessler in the photo with CAL Sr. in Guatemala.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 13, 2020 4:57:01 GMT -5
Yes, the name Giessler is a fairly common German name Hitler worked closely with two men named Giesler (third spelling of the name here) who were brothers. Paul Giesler was born in Siegen in 1895. He joined the Nazi party and was an avid supporter of Adolf Hitler, committing suicide when Germany surrendered. His brother Hermann was an architect and worked along side Albert Speer. He was born in Siegen in 1898 and served time in prison following the war. Some Gieslers are Jewish, some Christian, both Catholic and Protestant. Many did immigrate to Buenos Aires although this may not relate at all to the Lindbergh kidnapping.
My interest frankly was piqued by the message written in German on the table found in New Jersey. The signature bears the initials of the Nazi party. Some believe the message, ostensibly a confession by one of the kidnapping gang, to be a hoax although the wooden piece used to support part of the table matches the template of the ransom notes. One can wonder how politics could enter this situation, but the kidnapper(s) could have been avid Nazi supporters and identified themselves with the movement. Hence, the signature. The message would have been written in the late 1930s or so when the Nazi party was gaining prominence.
My curiosity concerns the father and son Geissler who spelled their name with one "s" and who were investigated although some serious questions about their possible involvement in the kidnapping still remain. So my question was whether the handwriting of both had ever been compared with the handwriting found on the Plainfield table.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 13, 2020 9:05:46 GMT -5
Correction: Carl O. and Carl D. Giessler spelled their name with two (s's). The Nazi officials I mentioned in the earlier posts spelled their name with one "s" (Giesler).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 11:06:08 GMT -5
So my question was whether the handwriting of both had ever been compared with the handwriting found on the Plainfield table. There are no police archive reports available about this table to know if such a comparison was ever done.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 13, 2020 12:41:49 GMT -5
Thank you, Amy, for your response. I will try to research the situation and get back to the board if there is any information re: a connection between the Giesslers and the Plainfield table.
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Post by Michael on Jun 16, 2020 9:19:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Amy, for your response. I will try to research the situation and get back to the board if there is any information re: a connection between the Giesslers and the Plainfield table. Well good luck Metje. The table has been a topic of conversation and research ever since Mark re-discovered it. Sue even went to Celina and toured the factory so there isn't much about it she doesn't already know. But it would be nice if someone could uncover something additional about it. Anything actually. "We've" hit a brick wall years ago and there's been nothing new ever since. Well, I suppose I should rephrase that by saying "that I know of." Quite often discoveries are made but aren't necessarily shared. A perfect example is that sale of the Rosner collection. Whoever bought it is a complete mystery so what's included in that collection could be lost forever - or it could be shared next week, next month, next year, or 10 years from now. It's what we signed up for I guess.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jun 16, 2020 14:09:28 GMT -5
Thank you, Michael. My interest is fairly recent and was piqued when i prepared a course on famous trials. The Lindbergh kidnapping (Hauptmann trial) was one example, and it became clear that there are a number of missing links in this case, plus a good many false clues to boot. I have checked several handwriting samples with that found on the Plainfield N.J. table with no luck. It occurred to me that one of the Giesslers may have been involved, so am currently working on that angle. If anything turns up, I will certainly post it on the board. The Giesslers, or one of them, could have been involved. There are too many coincidences in their story to the events relating to the kidnapping.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jul 6, 2020 10:25:04 GMT -5
(Sorry, evidently I posted this message on the wrong thread, so am trying again.)
One source connect Harriet Chapman with Worcester, Mass. although she was born in East Longmeadow in 1889. According to the History of the Surname Gowdy, Harriet's mother was Grace Bell Gowdy who married Harrison Samuel Chapman, Harriet's father. H.S. Chapman died in Springfield, MA in 1898. Grace (Harriet's mother) married her second husband, Theodore Nye in 1915. Theodore is listed as a graduate of Worcester Polytechnic Institute in 1895 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. His address was then listed as 19 Beverly Road in Worcester MA, later on Highland St. in Worcester. He worked as an Assistant Chief Draftsman for the Morgan Construction Company which is located in Worcester. Harriet Chapman was Jane Faulkner Giessler's sister-in-law; she married Jane's brother Harry who died in 1918 (possibly from the flu virus although I have no evidence for that). She at some point must have returned to Massachusetts, and instead of returning to East Longmeadow where she was born, she chose to stay with her mother Grace who had been married for several years to Theodore Nye and so is connected to Worcester, MA.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 10:49:27 GMT -5
(Sorry, evidently I posted this message on the wrong thread, so am trying again.) One source connect Harriet Chapman with Worcester, Mass. although she was born in East Longmeadow in 1889. According to the History of the Surname Gowdy, Harriet's mother was Grace Bell Gowdy who married Harrison Samuel Chapman, Harriet's father. H.S. Chapman died in Springfield, MA in 1898. Grace (Harriet's mother) married her second husband, Theodore Nye in 1915. Theodore is listed as a graduate of Worcester Polytechnic Institute in 1895 with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. His address was then listed as 19 Beverly Road in Worcester MA, later on Highland St. in Worcester. He worked as an Assistant Chief Draftsman for the Morgan Construction Company which is located in Worcester. Harriet Chapman was Jane Faulkner Giessler's sister-in-law; she married Jane's brother Harry who died in 1918 (possibly from the flu virus although I have no evidence for that). She at some point must have returned to Massachusetts, and instead of returning to East Longmeadow where she was born, she chose to stay with her mother Grace who had been married for several years to Theodore Nye and so is connected to Worcester, MA. Interesting information on Harriet. Do you have a theory about Harriet being involved with the JJ Faulkner deposit slip. The teller who took the deposit of that ransom money was not certain it had been a man. That leaves open the possibility it could have been a woman who made that deposit.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 6, 2020 15:19:24 GMT -5
In that era, woman customers at banks, especially large depositors at large banks like the New York Federal Reserve, would be a small minority. Therefore, all other things being equal, it is far more likely that a teller would remember a specific woman customer than a male counterpart.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jul 7, 2020 4:04:10 GMT -5
The deposit slip was signed "J.J.Faulkner" and gave the address at the Plymouth Apartments where the mother and daughter (both named Jane Faulkner) lived in the early 1920s. Following the death of her mother, Jane Faulkner married Carl Giessler, and the two continued to live at the Plymouth Apartments for a time, presumably with Carl's two children in addition. Harriet Chapman was married to Harry Faulkner, Jane's brother. The sisters-in-law did not get along, according to Jane Giessler, and she named Harriet as a person who might have exchanged the ransom money at the federal bank. Harriet would have known the address of the Plymouth apartment and Jane's unmarried name.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jul 7, 2020 6:33:22 GMT -5
I am not necessarily trying to implicate Harriet Chapman Faulkner! Jane Giessler may have mentioned her as a distraction for the investigation. Carl O. Giessler's daughter Phyllis is a more suspicious character. Why would Phyllis adopt an alias to travel to Canada? And one suggesting a male traveler (Phil McCall) at that? Why would anyone with a mentally disturbed husband keep a gun around the house? Her husband, Henry Liepold, was said to have committed suicide by shooting himself while the investigation into the kidnapping was being conducted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 8:59:57 GMT -5
So it is Phyllis Leipold that you are suspicious of. When Phyllis made that trip, she was taken aside and her luggage searched and nothing suspicious was found. It ended up she was visiting an old nursing friend. I believe Michael covers the Leipolds in Volume 3 of his book series. I think Michael reveals that Leipold was hiding something and the pressure from the Lindbergh investigation on the Giesslers and those people attached to them was causing Leipold serious mental anxiety. I think it probably contributed to Leipold committing suicide. It reminds a bit of Violet Sharp. Sometimes people see suicide as the answer to ending an investigation into their life in order to keep something hidden that they don't want to be confronted with.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jul 7, 2020 15:44:16 GMT -5
Although Phyllis Giessler's luggage was searched and nothing was found, there must be a reason that she was traveling under a male alias. There is nothing wrong with making a trip to Canada and visiting an old friend, but one should not need to hide one's identity to accomplish this unless there is some conscientiousness of guilt, something should be undisclosed (not diamonds certainly, her excuse).
As for the death of her husband, Henry Leipold, it seems that Phyllis spoke with him when he was having some kind of anxiety attack, then went outside and sat while her husband shot himself with a gun. There is something the matter with this story! Why was there a rifle in the house of a man whose wife knew he had mental problems? Why did she leave the house when she knew he was in a mental frenzy?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 15:49:11 GMT -5
Although Phyllis Giessler's luggage was searched and nothing was found, there must be a reason that she was traveling under a male alias. There is nothing wrong with making a trip to Canada and visiting an old friend, but one should not need to hide one's identity to accomplish this unless there is some conscientiousness of guilt, something should be undisclosed (not diamonds certainly, her excuse). As for the death of her husband, Henry Leipold, it seems that Phyllis spoke with him when he was having some kind of anxiety attack, then went outside and sat while her husband shot himself with a gun. There is something the matter with this story! Why was there a rifle in the house of a man whose wife knew he had mental problems? Why did she leave the house when she knew he was in a mental frenzy? Reading Michael's research on this from TDC V3, Phyllis did take Henry to see a doctor but I think she should have fought additional help for his mental state. Phyllis claimed see saw signs of "Dementia Praecox" in her husband. (page 169 TDC V3) Not sure how she came up with this determination as this condition does not go away in six months. I do think Phyllis Leipold should have sought additional help for her husband. It is clear, I think, that Henry Leipold had something heavy on his mind and felt suicide was the best answer. I agree that Mrs. Leipold should have had that rifle removed from that house once Henry started talking about suicide. Do you think all of the above issues with Phyllis and Henry suggest they are somehow tied into the Lindbergh kidnapping? I think the use of the first name Phil in the alias could be explained as a short pronunciation for Phyllis. However the use of the surname McCall is another matter that is not so easily explained away. She is definitely concealing her identity.
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metje
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Post by metje on Jul 12, 2020 7:50:35 GMT -5
The coroner's report states that Henry Leipold died by suicide, a single shot to the brain from a small 22 cal rifle. It would be quite difficult (though perhaps not impossible) to aim this weapon at one's own head and shoot a bullet into the brain. I am suggesting that Leipold might have been murdered because he knew something and there was fear that in his mental condition he might say something incriminating. He may have been under pressure to keep silence, or else. The scene was staged to make it appear a suicide while his wife went outside to avoid being a witness to the act. She said that she went outside so he could pray in private. Really! If she knew he was suffering from "dementia praecox" (not a term usually used by those not in the profession) and threatening to commit suicide, why did she keep a gun in the house?
Investigators dropped interest in the Giesslers when Hauptmann was arrested. This could have been a serious oversight.
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