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Post by romeo12 on Jul 19, 2014 12:25:18 GMT -5
hi amie, condon supposedly told a guy working in a drug store up there, that hauptmann wasn't the man or something of that effect. it made the newspapers, I have the artice I would have to dig it out
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 17:39:54 GMT -5
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Post by romeo12 on Jul 19, 2014 18:25:57 GMT -5
I have a different one where they have a picture of the drug store guy
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Post by Michael on Jul 19, 2014 19:05:37 GMT -5
Is there anything you can tell me about Condon's trip to Becket, Mass.? This is after the recovery of Charlie's remains and after the Bronx Grand Jury hearing in 1932. Is he trying to distance himself from the media for a while (hard to believe) or was he told to leave town for a while? Did he go to wait for further contact from the kidnappers? How long was he in Becket? If you go to page 92 of Lloyd's book, he breaks down this trip nicely. There are conflicting sources concerning how many days he spent there. I have Reports I've obtained from the Connecticut State Police dated May 21st regarding Condon's travels during this event. I also have a Pittsfield, Mass Letter written from their Chief of Police, John L. Sullivan - to Schwarzkopf regarding it. NYPD immediately interviewed Condon on June 1st apparently trying to debrief him about this specific trip. So between May 21, 1932 and June 1, 1932, and not longer. There were also several explanations given for this trip. One was Condon was searching for "John." Another was he was traveling the country to organize groups dedicated to ending crime. And lastly that he was trying to escape the strain of the situation and take a rest from the all the stress. Since Broadhurst was known to Condon, it looks to me like he was there to fish in the lake and take a short vacation away from the harassing Press and suspicious Police. Of course it didn't work out this way and the Press was kept at an arms length from Jafsie by a "Police Dog" named Nero. As the Press approached, Nero loyally ran to the front and ritually growed, snapped, and beared its teeth at any unwelcome intruder. However, Jafsie could not resist and would march out to make his (usual) outrages statements from time to time. In 1936, the Governor caught wind concerning a "bag" Condon had brought with him and threw into the Lake. There were rumors that it smelled really bad - the insinuation was it contained the dead child. Another was it was a part of the ransom money. One witness claimed that Condon, during his brief stay bought a pig for $20, and from this information speculation swirled that mysterious bag actually contained this pig - the demise of which was anyone's guess. One of the Governor's PIs - Harold Keyes actually hired divers to make a search for this bag, but were majorly unsucessful. In fact, I think the day they planned a dive the lake had frozen over (or some other excuse). And so, if there ever was such a bag, it's probably at the bottom of that lake to this day.
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Post by Michael on Jul 20, 2014 7:45:22 GMT -5
From an FBI sourced deemed "reliable" according to J. Edgar Hoover's letter to Schwarzkopf:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2014 9:44:41 GMT -5
Thanks so much for that page number! Sometimes I have trouble locating a topic or certain events when using Lloyd's book. Having read over what Lloyd shares about the Becket Mass. trip it seems Condon remained actively engaged with the media. After first arriving at Goodwin's campsite, Lloyd mentions that Condon read a message he (Condon) had for "John". Condon tells John that "the money I gave you is useless. You can't get rid of it. Return to Colonel Lindbergh in time. Get your $25,000 reward." The note is signed Jafsie. Taken at face value, it sounds like Condon is still trying to assist the "gang" by warning them not to try to use the extortion money. He thinks they should return it and collect the $25,000 dollars reward money. Is Condon referring to the reward money the state of NJ was offering? How can Condon think that such a thing is even possible? I have never believed that Condon's behavior was because he was a crazy old man. Suggesting the criminals try to collect the reward money has me rethinking some of his mental soundness. While in Becket, Condon again mentions that the gang consists of three men and two women. Their leader is very smart and a high public offical. Condon says he does not know what position this high ranking leader holds. Then he adds "I saw no native Americans." OK. What the heck does Condon mean by this? Is he referring to the gang members? Is he implying that none of them are born in America americans?? Condon says that he has been told by some fishermen that the money has been "parked" near New Beford and the authoities should be looking in that location. I wonder if these are the same fishermen Condon consulted about Red Johnson's innocence? Is Condon purposely trying to divert the attention of the authorites with all this nonsense he is telling the reporters? One thing I did find interesting is "Jack (Bugs) Marston, a member of the Detroit Purple Gang. Lloyd tells how the Pittsfield Police officers came to Condon with a picture of Jack Marston and Condon identified this man as "John" the man he gave the money to. Of course this turned out to be a bogus indentification by Condon. Why would Condon point a finger at such a man? Perhaps it is actions like this that made Condon fearful for his life. Lloyd then goes on to write about Condon's claims to reporters that he (Condon) saw John's face clearly and that he would know him again. That John is obviously a Scandinavian and did not offer his name ever to Condon. It was Condon's decision to call him John. Condon also claims that John told him that the actual kidnapper on the ladder was a man from Boston. If all this is to be believed, that certainly leaves Hauptmann off the hook as the kidnapper in Hopewell or CJ in the cemeteries. I found an interesting article recently that may shed light on what caused Condon's return from Becket to the Bronx: news.google.com/newspapers?id=aVFQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4g0EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3549%2C4182980Have you encountered anything about this event? The article seems to imply that the Condon family lived in this house in 1930. I always thought they lived on Decatur Ave. So Condon brought to the Becket camp a heavy bundle wrapped up in heavy brown paper and tied with heavy twine and giving off a peculiar smell which Condon claimed was chemicals. Very strange if true. What kind of followup was done on this Mr. David Rice of Becket? The letter says that Rice was willing to tell all he knew. Did he?
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Post by Michael on Jul 21, 2014 7:41:08 GMT -5
So Condon brought to the Becket camp a heavy bundle wrapped up in heavy brown paper and tied with heavy twine and giving off a peculiar smell which Condon claimed was chemicals. Very strange if true. What kind of followup was done on this Mr. David Rice of Becket? The letter says that Rice was willing to tell all he knew. Did he? Firstly, before Hoover wrote this letter the FBI did go up there to make an investigation. I've found zero evidence this was ever followed up by the NJSP. However, the same PI that attempted to find the bag (Keyes) interviewed Rice on behalf of Gov. Hoffman. Rice claimed they had passed Goodwin's place to drop off this bag at his camp only to ask his son to bring it back to them later. Condon explained they had a hard time shaking the Reporters that followed. Goodwin told Rice the bag contained something for his garden, and later said it contained acid. David's son Charles could not make the delivery so he did it himself. He said it was either a lime or cement bag about 3' long. The smell was bad and reminded him of decaying meat. Rice claimed both Condon and Goodwin were "nervous" and that upon delivery Goodwin took it then hid it in a bush near his gate. Supposedly, not long after, they put the rowboat in the water and dropped the bag into the lake. According to Rice, Condon did buy a pig then gave it to his son. This also raised a red flag to him thinking it was more of a bribe then a gift not understanding any other reason for Condon to be so "liberal" with his money.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 13:30:14 GMT -5
So, to be clear about this, the FBI just found out about this whole smelly luggage trip made by Condon and Goodwin in 1935? I am glad that the FBI did do an investigation. It is very disappointing to hear that NJSP did not do so themselves but I am not surprised because it is November 1935 and Hauptmann has been convicted as a lonewolf kidnapper/killer. The case is closed for the NJSP. I am wondering why Condon's Becket trip wasn't checked into in 1932. The case was wide open, Condon was being looked at suspiciously. They should have been checking and rechecking everything he was saying and everywhere he was going. This neighbor of Condon's who drove him to Becket Mass., was he ever checked out by any of LE? Did Goodwin only have one arm? When David Rice delivered the odorous package to Goodwin's property, he claims he was confronted by an armed man. Apparenty someone was on that property waiting for Condon and Goodwin and maybe that package. I have found a picture of Goodwin's house. Its a real shack! www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/Watchf-AP-A-NY-USA-APHS256900-Charles-Lindbergh-/1e85823446514f9189090296d30f841c/1/0Goodwin's shack looks like the perfect kind of place to dispose of something nasty! We could certainly speculate about what the contents of the 3 foot bag might be. Anyone who doesn't believe or is suspicious of the remains found on MT. Rose as being Charlie's might find this package quite interesting!
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Post by romeo12 on Jul 21, 2014 15:26:26 GMT -5
I find nothing to this, what it could be, we know it wasn't the baby
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 21, 2014 17:13:38 GMT -5
To All: Call me obsessed with Behn's idea that "Cemetery John" was likely Nosovitsky, but the above might fit in neatly with it. I know something about the Purple Gang in Detroit from late relatives who lived in Detroit during the Prohibition era, as well as some reading I've done. It wouldn't surprise me that Noso - given the facts (1) that he had lived in Detroit at one time and had family there, (2) was Jewish (as was just about the whole Purple Gang), and (3) was the kind of character known to have underworld connections - was connected to the Purple Gang himself. Noso's real first name was "Jacob", which could have been easily changed to "Jack", and so "Jack Marston" could possibly have been one of his zillions of aliases. Does anyone have a photo of "Jack Marston" so we can make a comparison to Noso?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 11:17:29 GMT -5
Since Condon said in June 1932 that Nosovitsky was not CJ, I doubt that the picture shown to Condon by the Pittsfield Police was Noso. I don't have a picture of Jack Marston. I have seen numerous pictures of the Purple Gang but most of them are not labeled according to the persons in them. Perhaps you can ask Michael if he has a picture of Jack Marston.
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Post by Michael on Jul 22, 2014 16:12:39 GMT -5
So, to be clear about this, the FBI just found out about this whole smelly luggage trip made by Condon and Goodwin in 1935? I am glad that the FBI did do an investigation. In the absence of something new then I'd have to say yes. I don't have a copy of the FBI investigation but we know one occurred because of what was told to Keyes when he did his interviews. The Letter Hoover wrote seems to be at its conclusion where he's turning over something to the NJSP that he feels is worthy of consideration. It is very disappointing to hear that NJSP did not do so themselves but I am not surprised because it is November 1935 and Hauptmann has been convicted as a lonewolf kidnapper/killer. The case is closed for the NJSP. I am wondering why Condon's Becket trip wasn't checked into in 1932. The case was wide open, Condon was being looked at suspiciously. They should have been checking and rechecking everything he was saying and everywhere he was going. This neighbor of Condon's who drove him to Becket Mass., was he ever checked out by any of LE? Did Goodwin only have one arm? All that I know is Condon was interviewed by the Lt. Dinan of the 43rd Squad NYPD concerning this trip. According to this report, Condon then left for Trenton to consult with Schwarzkopf about his activities. During his stay at Becket, Inspectors McColgan and McNaughton of the Pittsfield PD interviewed Condon. They were the one's who showed Condon the picture of Marston which he positively identified. A day or two later Chief Sullivan went to Central Pond and spoke with Condon "at great length" about the case. Sullivan also writes that he spoke with Goodwin. Sullivan's opinion: "I am firlmly convinced that Dr. Condon is on the verge of a nervous breakdown; that he loves publicity and that many statements that he makes might interfere or injure the case if the statements were facts." Sullivan went on to imply that Condon was making stuff up in order to rally attention from the Reporters. One example was that an airplane flew overhead and he acted as if it were important, then later announced he was expecting an "important call," and when a call did come through, it was his son who was absolutely furious with him for generating publicity. Sullivan comments that even the Newspaper Men were of the opinion he had cracked. Sullivan concluded: "I will not do anything for Dr. Condon anymore. I have told Insp. McColgan in charge of the Detective Bureau to leave him absolutely alone; that any request or anything that he got that he can refer it back to" (the NJSP for any investigation). As far as Goodwin.... I believe he did have only one arm. BTW, where are you reading that someone with a gun was waiting? I find nothing to this, what it could be, we know it wasn't the baby I agree it wasn't the "dead baby" Steve. You could also be correct that it's "nothing." However, how does possibly being right make it meaningless? It's was obviously meaningful to them, so the solution lies in trying to put together a selection of options to choose from. Those options could be anything ranging from ordinary to something illegal. What I do - if nothing jumps out at me - is leave it open until something else might lead to the answer later on. But to walk away or shrug it off without doing so is always a mistake. That's why so many Authors write about "facts" which are completely wrong.
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Post by romeo12 on Jul 22, 2014 16:56:46 GMT -5
mike I cant figure it out we don't know either way
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 22, 2014 17:05:18 GMT -5
That Condon address issue can probably be resolved by checking out the 1930 Census, in which Condon most likely appears with his official address at the time. I too thought that he had lived on Decatur Avenue for quite a number of years at the time Condon entered the Lindbergh case.
One other point: Condon would seem to have had teaching responsibilities (don't know how many jobs he held at the time) in May of 1932, so how and why did he manage to get away to Massachusetts, where he would be missing quite a few days on his job(s), which at that time would have probably cost him income? Was he thinking that he didn't need his teaching job(s) anymore, now that he had become a celebrity?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 17:19:59 GMT -5
It is found in the last few lines of the first paragraph of the letter you posted written by Hoover to Schwarzkopf.
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Post by Michael on Jul 22, 2014 19:49:04 GMT -5
It is found in the last few lines of the first paragraph of the letter you posted written by Hoover to Schwarzkopf. I'll be damned. I don't know how I missed that but I did. Thanks Amy! Anyway, that's the only place this is said and Rice himself makes no mention of it when giving his statement to Keyes. I'll have to go with the horse's mouth and say it didn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 20:49:24 GMT -5
Your welcome, Michael! I am glad to know that you checked the statement given to Keyes and it wasn't mentioned. Otherwise, I would have spent time trying to find something to confirm it happened. Now I won't have to do that!
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 22, 2014 22:15:15 GMT -5
BTW, does anyone know how Condon and Goodwin got to become pals? What was Goodwin's background?
Regarding the photo of Goodwin's shack, it's quite telling that the FBI (or perhaps the media) tailed Condon well over 100 miles from the Bronx to a remote rural area in the Berkshires. That's about the only way that picture could have been taken. Apparently, the FBI was very intense in its keeping track of Condon at the time.
But, as you folks have said, Hoover apparently didn't notify Schwarzkopf of his findings until well after Hauptmann was convicted and was facing the death penalty. Was this late notification reflective of the longstanding friction between Hoover's FBI and Schwarzkopf's NJ State Police?
I believe that approximately the same time that the Hoover letter to Schwarzkopf was written or shortly thereafter, Gov. Hoffman - reviewing the Hauptmann case and having serious doubts about Hauptmann's role - was looking to interview Condon but found to his dismay that Condon was on a cruise in Latin America and was unavailable.
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Post by Michael on Jul 23, 2014 20:47:22 GMT -5
BTW, does anyone know how Condon and Goodwin got to become pals? What was Goodwin's background? Goodwin and Condon were friends from The Bronx. A couple of sources say he had a record - one being Edward Dunn, Managing Editor of the Boston Post, who also claimed he was mixed up with the "underworld." The other was someone I suspect was the FBI's source: Frederick Klein. He was an NYPD Major in the Police "reserves." He had a summer cottage at Center Lake and knew Goodwin for the last ten years (as of 1935). He said Goodwin was a disreputable gangster who made a living as a "bookmaker." But, as you folks have said, Hoover apparently didn't notify Schwarzkopf of his findings until well after Hauptmann was convicted and was facing the death penalty. Was this late notification reflective of the longstanding friction between Hoover's FBI and Schwarzkopf's NJ State Police? I think its reflective of when the tip came in to the FBI. I've seen plenty of material where Hoover would refer communications directly to Schwarzkopf (and later Kimberling) then making it clear they weren't involved with this case at that point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:13:35 GMT -5
I have spent some time reflecting on this whole David Rice tip. I found myself wondering why it took Rice so long to come forward with this information. He must have been sitting on it for 3 years!
Was Condon ever asked about Rice's claims?
After a case is considered solved and has been prosecuted successfully, how long do authorites continue to check out tips that come there way? Why would they even want to if they believe the case was solved correctly?
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Post by Michael on Jul 26, 2014 6:21:45 GMT -5
Perhaps you can ask Michael if he has a picture of Jack Marston.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 26, 2014 23:50:53 GMT -5
To All:
Please recall the discussion as to where Condon may have lived in 1930. I happened to check out the 1930 Census Saturday, and it turns out he was at 2974 Decatur Ave. with his wife Myrna when the census taker came around on April 3 or 4, 1930. Same address as he had during the LKC. His home value was given in the census as $ 12,000, considerably less than other houses on the block.
It could be, of course, that the Bronx house purportedly owned by Condon which suffered the fire damage in 1932 (?) was a second property he owned that was either rented or vacant.
Also, Condon's age in the 1930 Census was listed as 69, which, if correct, would mean that he wouid have to be at most 71 at the time of the Lindbergh kidnapping, not the 72 he was reputed to be in most sources. Then, too, he may have lied to the census taker and made himself a year younger than he actually was. BTW, he is listed, not surprisingly, as being born in New York (state). His father was born in Ireland and his mother was born in New York.
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Post by hurtelable on Jul 27, 2014 11:30:25 GMT -5
Just speculating here, but I'd think that Condon and Goodwin's friendship might have had some connection to a mutual interest in boxing, since bookmakers at the time did a lot more business on boxing than in later years. Boxing was major popular sport back then, and bookmakers would have been very interested in goings-on about professional boxers and their managers and would hang out in the same circles.
One trivia question about Jafsie Condon that I've been unsuccessful to date in getting a definitive answer to is this: What was the blood relationship, if any, between "Jafsie" and John F. X. Condon (1914-1989)? The younger Condon was well known in boxing circles as a boxing matchmaker and promoter for Madison Square Garden in New York and in basketball as the public address announcer at Madison Square Garden for both the New York Knickerbockers and college games.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 15:26:14 GMT -5
Michael, Thanks for posting the picture of Jack Marston. He sure doesn't look like Noso.....or Hauptmann either!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 15:30:46 GMT -5
Hurtelable, Thanks for checking on Condon's 1930 address. I agree that the house that had a fire in it must have been a home they lived in previously but that Condon continued to own it. He had a number of real estate holdings which he did rent out. Perhaps he was using this former house as a rental home.
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Post by deedee1963 on Aug 22, 2014 23:51:47 GMT -5
Michael, were you ever able to find out why Nosovitskky sued Condon? I think it was in 1936.
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Post by Michael on Aug 23, 2014 10:13:58 GMT -5
Michael, were you ever able to find out why Nosovitskky sued Condon? I think it was in 1936.
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Post by hurtelable on Aug 23, 2014 15:40:58 GMT -5
Thanks, Michael, for that little article about Noso suing Condon.
If that article was accurate, and all that Noso was alleging was that Condon said that he, Nosovitsky, was "J. J. Faulkner," there would be no way for Nosovitsky to prevail in that suit. That's because it had been established that Nosovitsky was indeed "J. J. Faulkner." In his book, "Lindbergh: The Crime," Noel Behn states that in reviewing NYPD records, it was found that "J. J. Faulkner" was one of the many aliases for Nosovitsky. FBI records confirm the same.
Behn, as well as handwriting expert William Pelletreau who advised Gov. Hoffman during the after trial period, concluded that it was "J. J. Faulkner" (i.e., Nosovitsky) who wrote all the ransom notes but the first. Pelletreau also thought that Nosovitsky wrote the first note, but Behn stated that Noso was out of the New York-New Jersey area on Mar. 1, 1932.
Nosovitsky seemingly avoided prosecution in the Lindbergh case because he had helped the NYPD to solve other cases in the past, and had worked together with J. Edgar Hoover on past projects as well.
It appears as if Hauptmann's lawyers were unaware of Nosovitsky during the trial, as was the general public.
"J. J. Faulkner" entered the public consciousness again in January 1936, when he wrote a letter to Gov. Hoffman claiming that Hauptmann was innocent in the kidnapping, but guilty only of "greed."
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Post by deedee1963 on Aug 24, 2014 19:11:31 GMT -5
Michael, were you ever able to find out why Nosovitskky sued Condon? I think it was in 1936. View AttachmentThank you so much for this article, Michael! I really appreciate. I was really excited to read this.
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Post by M.Arkadin on Nov 10, 2014 15:16:39 GMT -5
I was curious if anyone knows where I could read those article from the magazine Liberty? I'm pretty sure both Gov. Hoffman and BRH wrote articles in regards to their involvement in the "Great Case". But wasn't there an article about Hauptmann's priest? Didn't he say that Condon said "he would never testify" against Hauptmann when he went to visit him? The article used to be on Liberty magazine's site but there all gone now that the site got a remodel.
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