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Post by Michael on Dec 19, 2017 9:32:42 GMT -5
I am sorry I don't get a motive that Betty Gow would have? The line "I am not to be touched" is not specific enough. If she was guilty of a crime how short sighted could one be not to be expected to be questioned? To me it is a suspicion that Gow would immediately be blamed for bad care and safety of the child. Lindbergh's confidence in her that she is not to blamed prompted Lindbergh's protection. Now I am reading she was definitely in the room during the kidnapping ? A deathbed confession from a probably heavily medicated Whately. Perhaps Whately does blame poor care and protection of the baby on Betty but to say involvement in a scheme is rather presumptuous. I understand what you are saying Gary, however it's not one thing but rather the totality of them. It's common for those of us researching the case to look at one thing at a time, instead of the whole host of things which actually exist. History shows us a completely false narrative about her when reality shows us another. Sharp was supposed to be the "wild" one, yet, it's Betty who was thrown out of Princeton because of her conduct. It was Betty who was taken in with Red by police for what amounted to disorderly conduct and it wasn't the first time she had been caught drunk with her pants down. No background check by Lindbergh, he tells cops he trusted his staff 100% but tells others everyone should be a suspect. If that's the case why block police about them? Why no lie detector? Why tell Gow she wouldn't be touched? Not that "everyone's a suspect" or "if police get heavy handed let me know" but rather "you won't be touched." Then history tells us how great Betty was at her job, yet, in Detroit she was fired for being slipshod. Why didn't these facts ever make it into the previous books on this crime? She wanted to latch onto a wealthy family, get married to someone with money so she wouldn't have to ever work. We have her conduct at the morgue where she was acting like a celebrity walking to see this dead child she loved so much. This is just the beginning and there's so much to review. So I say to everyone to erase what history has previously recorded, let go of any emotional connection to these characters, look at the FACTS then pursue and consider where they lead. When I read that one cannot "believe" this person could do "this" or cannot "believe" that person could do "that" all I can say is believe it. I've read actual pre-sentence investigations where I could not believe what I was reading about the guy standing in front of me. This idea that certain personalities should be given a pass based upon perception or belief is a huge mistake. Start by believing that anyone is capable of doing just about anything if the situation is right. I am not saying everyone - but anyone. Put them on the list first then remove them later. What I see is they are being removed by default.
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Post by wolfman666 on Dec 19, 2017 10:57:03 GMT -5
like I said before im not big on eyewitnesses. ellis parker did some sleazy things and the worst was kidnapping wendel. it shows me gov Hoffman had nothing to offer in his investigation
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Post by Michael on Dec 19, 2017 11:59:26 GMT -5
like I said before im not big on eyewitnesses. ellis parker did some sleazy things and the worst was kidnapping wendel. it shows me gov Hoffman had nothing to offer in his investigation That's a really bold statement. Wendel was a liar, a con-man, and a criminal. In the end, Parker could not adequately defend himself in Federal Court because he was not mentally competent. So what you are alleging is that anything the best detective in the history of these United States turned up - no matter how obtained - no matter how factual or relevant - is not valid because he got sick and started to slip mentally as a result towards the end of his life? So let's ignore everything people do for the time being and see if they wind up with Alzheimers or something so we can point to that fact as if they never did anything worthwhile prior thereto? Makes no sense. His record speaks for itself, and when the facts are clear how is your point relevant? Moore saw the car. Conover saw the car. No one disputes it. Parker did the detective work to create a time-line. Police did not dispute it, in fact, they had a similar one where the crime occurred about that time as well (TDC p54). One which Lindbergh himself accepted despite claiming he heard a sound when he did. Then it only ever switched back for court. The problem is that most "experts" only consult the Flemington Trial Transcripts or the FBI Summary so they don't know about other sources before formulating an opinion. Once that happens they refuse adjust their position no matter what turns up with great rebuttals such as "it doesn't matter."
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Post by rebekah on Dec 19, 2017 15:51:54 GMT -5
Amy said:
"Just wanted to jump in quickly here. It would not surprise me if Betty was present in the nursery at the time of the crime. It really would not surprise me at all if Lindbergh was up there with her at that time. After all, Whited saw Lindbergh pull into his private lane not long after 7 p.m. on March 1. I don't think he sat in his car until 8:25 pm. when he "officially" came home."
I am so glad to see you! Don't stay away so long. You have been really missed.
Now, I have a question. Where was Anne? We all know the story about her helping with the baby's supper and the nightshirt, and I have thought about what it took to stage the ladder and set the scene. It would seem that the whole set-up was taking place right outside the window sometime between 7:00 and 8:00. I don't understand how they (Lindbergh, Betty and whoever else was canoodling around with that ladder) could have done it without Anne knowing something was going on. That she knew everything is a place I'm not ready to go. So, where was she (really) between 7 and 8?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 16:54:17 GMT -5
Now, I have a question. Where was Anne? I believe Anne was where she said she was once she left the nursery. She was in the livingroom where she stayed while Charlie was being removed from the home. I have a lot of threads to catch up on. This board has been busy while I was not here!!
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Post by garyb215 on Dec 19, 2017 20:03:31 GMT -5
First of all thank you for being tolerant for some one with an opposing view. It makes this board more enjoyable to discuss things knowing someone can have a different viewpoint be debated but not blasted for it. I understand the perception history makes of a person can be far different from the truth. Still with the great information of her conduct that exposes a questionable quality character I can not find one action that definitely convicts of her of anything. Then the most important question is where does this fit in with Hauptmann? Maybe I have too many questions why this and why that that makes me focus on anything tale telling. If I want to go there I think Whately has just as much suspicion. Where on earth is Whately going at 10+ pm to get flashlights? There were no Walmarts back then. Wagoosh was tabbed always laying by Jr's door but not this night. He is placed away by none other than Ollie. Betty and Elsie in Whately's bedroom opens an opportunity for Ollie to move around perhaps undetected including actions to cover up.
I am anxious for the second volume of Dark Corner's. I am hoping thoughts on Condon will be written. I am currently reading Behn's book again. I love this book as well.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 19, 2017 20:53:20 GMT -5
I think the answer to all your questions is that everyone in the house was involved, to the extent that they all knew, at the very least, that CAL Jr. was being removed. They were told what to say, so I think there’s really nothing about their accounts of their movements and activities that can be trusted.
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Post by garyb215 on Dec 19, 2017 21:10:42 GMT -5
If it was a "family scandal"I would not doubt you are right LJ.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 19, 2017 21:27:03 GMT -5
For what it’s worth, I do think it was precisely that; a family scandal. There was something physically or congenitally wrong with CAL Jr. (the nature of the body’s decomposition shows this) and this would’ve been a definite scandal, especially when it concerns the most famous and respected man in the world.
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Post by trojanusc on Dec 20, 2017 1:26:09 GMT -5
As far as Hauptmann fitting in, my personal opinion (shared with Gardner) is that Lindbergh worked with Carrell, who had contacts to do this kind of thing, as medical schools often used gangs to get "materials" for research. Whether Hauptmann was part of this gang, I don't know. However, I think the staff was likely informed CALjr would be leaving and a group was hired to stage a kidnapping. Each person in the home had some role to play to assist but all were aware it wasn't a "true" kidnapping.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 20, 2017 2:20:11 GMT -5
I agree with pretty much everything here. The only thing I'm not sure about is Carrel, as the person with contacts. But whoever that person was, I do think that person recruited others to actually carry out the fake kidnapping. Hauptmann could've been one of those people, or he could've been approached by one of these people to build a ladder--something that could fit in a car and looked amateurish and unprofessional, to throw the police off of the idea that this whole thing was actually carefully organized.
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Post by garyb215 on Dec 20, 2017 3:27:43 GMT -5
The thing you have to keep in mind to go in this direction you have to consider Hauptmann never pointed a finger at anyone. If it was a fake kidnapping Hauptmann should have easily admitted he was a pawn in the crime. I don't believe Lindbergh or Carrel could have any weight of a threat against Hauptmann or his family to come out and confess the origin of the crime is them. This is why I always have leaned from the beginning the crime was devised by someone who had all the planning and workings to do the task. Thats why I see the insider help as maybe someone outside the main circle yet the ability to know everything. The master planner had it all down but broke from his group because of nerve or whatever. I say this because I believe the kidnapping had a measure of skill up to the point of the abduction. After the abduction its different. This is just my mind flowing hypothetically. I have no proof of anything but if one says Lindbergh and Hauptmann are both guilty it just doesn't fit. The better odds its either one or the other not both.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 8:47:22 GMT -5
As far as Hauptmann fitting in, my personal opinion (shared with Gardner) is that Lindbergh worked with Carrell, who had contacts to do this kind of thing, as medical schools often used gangs to get "materials" for research. Whether Hauptmann was part of this gang, I don't know. However, I think the staff was likely informed CALjr would be leaving and a group was hired to stage a kidnapping. Each person in the home had some role to play to assist but all were aware it wasn't a "true" kidnapping. I agree with the staff knowing that Charlie was going to be removed and that this would go down as a kidnapping to cover his disappearance. I absolutely believe that Lindbergh did discuss Charlie with Carrel. My concern with this is whether CAL and Carrel were in agreement with the end game - being whether Charlie was supposed to die or if he was to be placed somewhere. Please correct me if I am wrong - Isn't Dr. Gardner's position that Lindbergh wanted Charlie institutionalized? It was never about Charlie being intentionally killed?
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 20, 2017 11:17:12 GMT -5
My own thoughts on this are that Carrel confirmed Lindbergh's suspicions about CAL Jr., by diagnosing him as "not right", and that is where Carrel's involvement ended. Then Lindbergh, on his own, made up his mind about what to do next. I think he sold it to his household that CAL Jr. needed to be sent away, but in order to avoid a scandal about his health, this had to be disguised as a kidnapping, with CAL Jr. secreted away in an institution where Anne could visit him, etc. But what everyone in the house didn't know was that Lindbergh's real plan was for CAL Jr. to die--to be euthanized really, in Lindbergh's social Darwinist mind--and when the baby turned up dead, he could tell Anne and the rest that something must have gone wrong. But Lindbergh himself couldn't pull off a scheme like this on his own; he wasn't a gangster or anything, but his father having been a congressman, his father-in-law a senator and ambassador--and Lindbergh himself being the most famous man in the world in his own right--he was acquainted with people who knew how to take care of things that needed taking care of. Lindbergh approached someone like this, a friend or associate who fit this bill, who, in turn, recruited some guys out of the Bronx--the nearest, largest population center to the Lindberghs' secluded new country home, where the "kidnapping" would take place. These guys, one of whom may have been Hauptmann, went to Hopewell, carried out the "kidnapping", with the rest of the household knowing they were coming to take CAL Jr. away, at least passively assisting by letting it happen--leaving the front door open both literally and figuratively. But Lindbergh gets double-crossed: Although they’ve been paid upfront, the "kidnappers" decide they want more money, and begin extorting Lindbergh simply by sending more ransom notes and treating this like a real kidnapping. Being Bronx-based, they know (or know of) Condon, selecting, approaching, and using him as a go-between, as someone who Lindbergh will have no choice but to give the $50K "ransom" to, to then pass on to them. Once he's brought in, the "kidnappers" tell Condon (probably at Woodlawn) that CAL Jr. is, in fact, dead, and now it's very much in Condon's interest to protect the kidnappers, make sure they get their money and go away, so they will never reveal Condon's true involvement with them. Condon then starts lying and obfuscating left and right, throwing law enforcement off the "kidnappers'" trail. Meanwhile, once they get their $50K, the rest of Lindbergh’s original plan is carried out: The "kidnappers" retrieve CAL Jr.'s body from where they've been keeping it, and dump it on a Hopewell roadside for a quick discovery (though animals got a hold of it before that could happen, so the body wasn't ultimately found until a month and a half later).
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Post by scathma on Dec 20, 2017 16:12:38 GMT -5
But Lindbergh himself couldn't pull off a scheme like this on his own; he wasn't a gangster or anything, but his father having been a congressman, his father-in-law a senator and ambassador--and Lindbergh himself being the most famous man in the world in his own right--he was acquainted with people who knew how to take care of things that needed taking care of. Lindbergh approached someone like this, a friend or associate who fit this bill, who, in turn, recruited some guys out of the Bronx--the nearest, largest population center to the Lindberghs' secluded new country home, where the "kidnapping" would take place. And remember, Breckenridge (along with some of his family for appearance sake) spent the weekend immediately before the kidnapping at the still-incomplete Highfields. The timing of this visit has always struck me as too coincidental; why would Breckenridge want to bring his family out to a house in the middle of nowhere while it was still being finalized and furnished (no curtains?) and on a dreary February weekend? To consult with his client about what was to take place over the course of the upcoming few days perhaps?
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Post by trojanusc on Dec 20, 2017 17:36:18 GMT -5
My own thoughts on this are that Carrel confirmed Lindbergh's suspicions about CAL Jr., by diagnosing him as "not right", and that is where Carrel's involvement ended. Then Lindbergh, on his own, made up his mind about what to do next. I think he sold it to his household that CAL Jr. needed to be sent away, but in order to avoid a scandal about his health, this had to be disguised as a kidnapping, with CAL Jr. secreted away in an institution where Anne could visit him, etc. But what everyone in the house didn't know was that Lindbergh's real plan was for CAL Jr. to die--to be euthanized really, in Lindbergh's social Darwinist mind--and when the baby turned up dead, he could tell Anne and the rest that something must have gone wrong. But Lindbergh himself couldn't pull off a scheme like this on his own; he wasn't a gangster or anything, but his father having been a congressman, his father-in-law a senator and ambassador--and Lindbergh himself being the most famous man in the world in his own right--he was acquainted with people who knew how to take care of things that needed taking care of. Lindbergh approached someone like this, a friend or associate who fit this bill, who, in turn, recruited some guys out of the Bronx--the nearest, largest population center to the Lindberghs' secluded new country home, where the "kidnapping" would take place. These guys, one of whom may have been Hauptmann, went to Hopewell, carried out the "kidnapping", with the rest of the household knowing they were coming to take CAL Jr. away, at least passively assisting by letting it happen--leaving the front door open both literally and figuratively. But Lindbergh gets double-crossed: Although they’ve been paid upfront, the "kidnappers" decide they want more money, and begin extorting Lindbergh simply by sending more ransom notes and treating this like a real kidnapping. Being Bronx-based, they know (or know of) Condon, selecting, approaching, and using him as a go-between, as someone who Lindbergh will have no choice but to give the $50K "ransom" to, to then pass on to them. Once he's brought in, the "kidnappers" tell Condon (probably at Woodlawn) that CAL Jr. is, in fact, dead, and now it's very much in Condon's interest to protect the kidnappers, make sure they get their money and go away, so they will never reveal Condon's true involvement with them. Condon then starts lying and obfuscating left and right, throwing law enforcement off the "kidnappers'" trail. Meanwhile, once they get their $50K, the rest of Lindbergh’s original plan is carried out: The "kidnappers" retrieve CAL Jr.'s body from where they've been keeping it, and dump it on a Hopewell roadside for a quick discovery (though animals got a hold of it before that could happen, so the body wasn't ultimately found until a month and a half later). Agree with all of this, though I think there is some indication that some of the organs were medically removed as they were deeper ones, with the more superficial organs left in tact. This seems to indicate the body being handled by a medical professional. It would not surprise me if Lindbergh gave Carrel permission to examine the body for whatever eugenics-related purpose - hence why it doesn't seem a stretch he's also use the Doctor for locating the same types of shady figures who were often used to acquire otherwise illegal specimens for medical schools, which was very common at the time.
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 20, 2017 19:32:43 GMT -5
When would this surgical organ removal have taken place? And as to Breckinridge: He was my first candidate for Lindbergh’s Mr. X contact, but now I don’t think so. He may have known CAL Jr. was going away, but I think he was in the dark as to the rest of the plan. Too squeaky clean to be in on a murder.
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Post by rebekah on Dec 20, 2017 20:36:09 GMT -5
As far as Hauptmann fitting in, my personal opinion (shared with Gardner) is that Lindbergh worked with Carrell, who had contacts to do this kind of thing, as medical schools often used gangs to get "materials" for research. Whether Hauptmann was part of this gang, I don't know. However, I think the staff was likely informed CALjr would be leaving and a group was hired to stage a kidnapping. Each person in the home had some role to play to assist but all were aware it wasn't a "true" kidnapping. I have read Gardner's first release of TCTND twice, but I haven't read the second edition with the added information. Is this where he brings in Carrell? Of the people Lindbergh was associated with, Carrell seems to be the person most likely to have known how to find people who might be involved. Even at that, those people may have not known who they were delivering to Carrell. No photos of Charlie were released after the summer of 1931, and he may have changed so much as to not be recognized. Or, they knew and were paid very well to keep their mouths shut.There is the rumor that Charlie was taken to the Rockefeller Institute in the week before the 'kidnapping'. Maybe he was in Carrell's hands after, too. Makes me shudder.
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Post by rebekah on Dec 20, 2017 20:58:00 GMT -5
Now, I have a question. Where was Anne? I believe Anne was where she said she was once she left the nursery. She was in the livingroom where she stayed while Charlie was being removed from the home. I have a lot of threads to catch up on. This board has been busy while I was not here!! Didn't she say she left the nursery around 7:30 or thereabouts? That would still give the perpetrators on the outside plenty of time to position the ladder, take it down, and head for their car, which was parked on the main road just outside the private drive. Just speculating here, but maybe the "tires on the gravel" sound she heard around 8:10 was Lindbergh leaving with the baby. He drove back down to the road and delivered Charlie to the waiting car, turned around and arrived home at 8:25. I believe there were only two cars involved, and one was Lindbergh's. The car the Conovers saw on Featherbed was the ladder/burlap bags car and the same car Lupica spotted earlier. That little trick with the lights off/on/off was no doubt some kind of signal. A little bit early for a signal to Lindbergh, but no doubt those lights could have been seen from the nursery window.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 23:19:21 GMT -5
I think there is some indication that some of the organs were medically removed as they were deeper ones, with the more superficial organs left in tact. This seems to indicate the body being handled by a medical professional. It would not surprise me if Lindbergh gave Carrel permission to examine the body for whatever eugenics-related purpose - hence why it doesn't seem a stretch he's also use the Doctor for locating the same types of shady figures who were often used to acquire otherwise illegal specimens for medical schools, which was very common at the time. According to the autopsy, the only two body organs left were the heart and the liver. Are you suggesting that some of the other organs not present in the body were surgically removed by Dr. Carrel for eugenics-related purposes? So Lindbergh goes to Carrel for help in finding the right types of people who will kidnap/murder his son and in exchange Lindbergh will allow Carrel to harvest some of Charlie's organs for scientific purposes?? Some kind of quid pro quo arrangement? Am I understanding your theory correctly? It is quite unique. Thinking about it though, it certainly would fit with Fisch's comment to Breckinridge in Breck's office a week after the kidnapping where Fisch talks about the needs of science must be served over and above human life. Very interesting theory!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2017 23:38:39 GMT -5
Didn't she say she left the nursery around 7:30 or thereabouts? That would still give the perpetrators on the outside plenty of time to position the ladder, take it down, and head for their car, which was parked on the main road just outside the private drive. Just speculating here, but maybe the "tires on the gravel" sound she heard around 8:10 was Lindbergh leaving with the baby. He drove back down to the road and delivered Charlie to the waiting car, turned around and arrived home at 8:25. I believe there were only two cars involved, and one was Lindbergh's. The car the Conovers saw on Featherbed was the ladder/burlap bags car and the same car Lupica spotted earlier. That little trick with the lights off/on/off was no doubt some kind of signal. A little bit early for a signal to Lindbergh, but no doubt those lights could have been seen from the nursery window. Anne did say that she left the nursery around 7:30. My position is that the ladder is a staging prop and that Charlie left via the front door. I agree that two cars are involved and that the car Anne heard leaving was probably the car that left with Charlie and was seen by the Moore family around 8:22 pm. The ladder car had only one occupant in it according to Ben Lupica. There had to be at least two people handling that ladder because we have footprints of two people walking away from the house. If you believe the second car involved is Lindbergh's, do you think that Lindbergh is one of the people who helped raise the ladder to the nursery window?
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Post by lightningjew on Dec 21, 2017 0:15:41 GMT -5
I thought there were two strange cars seen in the area throughout that day. What were the descriptions of these cars? And what kind of car did Lindbergh drive?
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Post by trojanusc on Dec 21, 2017 4:51:15 GMT -5
I think there is some indication that some of the organs were medically removed as they were deeper ones, with the more superficial organs left in tact. This seems to indicate the body being handled by a medical professional. It would not surprise me if Lindbergh gave Carrel permission to examine the body for whatever eugenics-related purpose - hence why it doesn't seem a stretch he's also use the Doctor for locating the same types of shady figures who were often used to acquire otherwise illegal specimens for medical schools, which was very common at the time. According to the autopsy, the only two body organs left were the heart and the liver. Are you suggesting that some of the other organs not present in the body were surgically removed by Dr. Carrel for eugenics-related purposes? So Lindbergh goes to Carrel for help in finding the right types of people who will kidnap/murder his son and in exchange Lindbergh will allow Carrel to harvest some of Charlie's organs for scientific purposes?? Some kind of quid pro quo arrangement? Am I understanding your theory correctly? It is quite unique. Thinking about it though, it certainly would fit with Fisch's comment to Breckinridge in Breck's office a week after the kidnapping where Fisch talks about the needs of science must be served over and above human life. Very interesting theory! I can't say what sort of arrangement there was or if the death was always part of the plan. However, it seems clear to me that Lindbergh was closer to Carrel than anyone at that juncture and his specialty was eugenics, also a prime passion of Lindbergh's. Likely then is a discussion of what to do with Lindbergh's sick child. Whether or not it was a "quid pro quo" I don't know. I never thought of it like that, just that he would allow the body of his son to be inspected by a close confidant to find out what ailed him or how to potentially remedy such a deformity in a future offspring (i.e. nearly the very definition of eugenics).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 10:43:01 GMT -5
I thought there were two strange cars seen in the area throughout that day. What were the descriptions of these cars? And what kind of car did Lindbergh drive? I think Michael's book, The Dark Corners, covers the car sightings really well in several different chapters. Narrowing it done to March 1 only, I think the Carrie Conover sighting of blue Dodge around 3 p.m. and Ben Lupica's sighting of a dark car around 6 p.m. are probably the same car since both sightings involve a ladder inside the car. Also there is the sighting of a large dark colored touring car by both John Kristofeck and Joseph Kuchta covered in Chapter 14 of Michael's book, on pages 246 through 249. I am not sure how many cars Lindbergh had. I am aware of the Brown Lincoln and he also had a dark colored Franklin. The Hopewell house had a 3 car garage so perhaps he had a third car?? Ollie Whateley drove to run errands and visit friends, etc. since he and Elsie resided there. So either he drove one of Lindbergh's cars or he had his own.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 10:50:50 GMT -5
I can't say what sort of arrangement there was or if the death was always part of the plan. However, it seems clear to me that Lindbergh was closer to Carrel than anyone at that juncture and his specialty was eugenics, also a prime passion of Lindbergh's. Likely then is a discussion of what to do with Lindbergh's sick child. Whether or not it was a "quid pro quo" I don't know. I never thought of it like that, just that he would allow the body of his son to be inspected by a close confidant to find out what ailed him or how to potentially remedy such a deformity in a future offspring (i.e. nearly the very definition of eugenics). I really appreciate you sharing your theory. It is intriguing and something I will think about. I do have a private theory about Charlie and the Rockefeller Institute that I have worked on but not put on the board. I think I shall have to revisit it in light of what you have shared. Thank you!
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Post by rebekah on Dec 21, 2017 17:48:40 GMT -5
Didn't she say she left the nursery around 7:30 or thereabouts? That would still give the perpetrators on the outside plenty of time to position the ladder, take it down, and head for their car, which was parked on the main road just outside the private drive. Just speculating here, but maybe the "tires on the gravel" sound she heard around 8:10 was Lindbergh leaving with the baby. He drove back down to the road and delivered Charlie to the waiting car, turned around and arrived home at 8:25. I believe there were only two cars involved, and one was Lindbergh's. The car the Conovers saw on Featherbed was the ladder/burlap bags car and the same car Lupica spotted earlier. That little trick with the lights off/on/off was no doubt some kind of signal. A little bit early for a signal to Lindbergh, but no doubt those lights could have been seen from the nursery window. Anne did say that she left the nursery around 7:30. My position is that the ladder is a staging prop and that Charlie left via the front door. I agree that two cars are involved and that the car Anne heard leaving was probably the car that left with Charlie and was seen by the Moore family around 8:22 pm. The ladder car had only one occupant in it according to Ben Lupica. There had to be at least two people handling that ladder because we have footprints of two people walking away from the house. If you believe the second car involved is Lindbergh's, do you think that Lindbergh is one of the people who helped raise the ladder to the nursery window? I do think that Lindbergh helped stage the ladder. I know Ben said there was only one occupant in the car he saw, and I think he's right. But, there could have been two people in the car that drove into Lindbergh's private drive around 7:10. (I also think it was Lindbergh who planted the mud smudges in the nursery.) Also, I believe Charlie left the house by the front door, drugged, but still alive.
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 21, 2017 20:47:25 GMT -5
(1) If the autopsy report is credible, it would be very hard to fathom how only the heart and liver remained if the body had not been subjected to human manipulation. No particular reason for scavenger animals to have been so selective.
(2) Amy, I think you are prematurely jumping to conclusions when you speculate that the man who visited Breckenridge's office in the days following the presumed "kidnapping" was indeed Fisch. That MIGHT be be true, but it's far fron certain.
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Post by hurtelable on Dec 21, 2017 20:56:56 GMT -5
I can't say what sort of arrangement there was or if the death was always part of the plan. However, it seems clear to me that Lindbergh was closer to Carrel than anyone at that juncture and his specialty was eugenics, also a prime passion of Lindbergh's. Likely then is a discussion of what to do with Lindbergh's sick child. Whether or not it was a "quid pro quo" I don't know. I never thought of it like that, just that he would allow the body of his son to be inspected by a close confidant to find out what ailed him or how to potentially remedy such a deformity in a future offspring (i.e. nearly the very definition of eugenics). I really appreciate you sharing your theory. It is intriguing and something I will think about. I do have a private theory about Charlie and the Rockefeller Institute that I have worked on but not put on the board. I think I shall have to revisit it in light of what you have shared. Thank you! Similarities of this theory to the novel and movie "COMA."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 11:19:22 GMT -5
I do think that Lindbergh helped stage the ladder. I know Ben said there was only one occupant in the car he saw, and I think he's right. But, there could have been two people in the car that drove into Lindbergh's private drive around 7:10. (I also think it was Lindbergh who planted the mud smudges in the nursery.) Also, I believe Charlie left the house by the front door, drugged, but still alive. Interesting positions! The car Whited saw entering the Lindbergh private lane around 7:10 pm March 1 was Lindbergh's by the description he gave to the police and no doubt the authorities recognized it as such and told Whited to keep quiet about this (not telling Whited that the car he described was one that Lindbergh drove). The fact that the police did not want Whited to speak about this is what validates it for me. I am aware that Whited is a liar. However, I do believe that he was just telling what he honestly saw that night. Going with the 7:10 pm car being Lindbergh's, your suggestion that someone might have been in the car with Lindbergh is something I have not considered. A couple of questions: Do you think Lindbergh picked up the driver and possibly the ladder also from the ladder car which parked on Wertsville Road and drove him up the driveway? Or do you think Lindbergh had a different person with him that night in his car who also assisted in the kidnapping along with the person in the ladder car? I do think the mud smudges are part of the staging of the nursery. I think the crib is also. If you believe that Betty made a stop at a drug store to pick up something to drug Charlie so he would sleep through the removal, then it makes sense to assume that the child was alive when he left. Otherwise, why give him something like that if you are going to kill him in the nursery?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 11:28:10 GMT -5
(2) Amy, I think you are prematurely jumping to conclusions when you speculate that the man who visited Breckenridge's office in the days following the presumed "kidnapping" was indeed Fisch. That MIGHT be be true, but it's far fron certain. I don't think it is far from certain. I think the probability is high that it was Fisch. When Breck saw Fisch's picture in the papers after Hauptmann's arrest in 1934 came out in the news, it immediately triggered his memory about that incident that occurred in his office in March of 1932. Also Breck's physical description of the person is extremely close to that of Fisch. Please review Dr. Gardner's coverage of this in his book, The Case That New Dies, on page 408 (paperback). I feel comfortable in my assumption that the man is, indeed, Fisch.
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