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Post by Name of nelly on Apr 11, 2006 13:02:36 GMT -5
nelly is a form of Eleanor, Helen and Cornelia, all names that were much more popular in the 1930's
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Post by rick3 on Apr 11, 2006 14:46:02 GMT -5
At one point in the investigation CAL was reported to be using code to determine the next message? (Walsh) One CAL was using moved from letter to letter in a dictionary......Who know what for? Who were they fooling? Mickey Rosner?
Charlie was found close (not onto) Aunt Molley Road. Well, I suppose you could code that as Road Nelly or even Boad Nelly?
BUT let me digress: No matter how or who placed, laid, dumped or buried Charlie where he was found what if he was never found by accident?
Was there any backup plan to insure discovery?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 11, 2006 15:28:01 GMT -5
Michael, with regards to the around-the-world adventures of Nellie Bly, I don't have much more to offer at this point around how it might tie in with the rest of the note, specifically the length of the boat being 28 feet and where it could be found. Aside from perhaps one of the original gang members having a nautical background that complemented the "christening" of the mythical boat.
On November 14, 1889, Nellie Bly began her world-wide journey on the Hamburg-American Company liner Augusta Victoria from the Hoboken Pier at exactly 9:40:30 a.m. No special considerations were given to Bly as she hopped from train to boat to rickshaw in order to make the necessary connections. Bly's travel experiences were published daily in the World and eagerly read by all. Seventy-two days, six hours, eleven minutes and fourteen seconds after her Hoboken departure, Nellie arrived home. She was greeted with fireworks, parades and brass bands and was catapulted into the world's spotlight.
Hauptmann arrived at Hoboken Pier in November of 1923, and I wonder if there might have been some plaque or recognition of Nellie Bly's adventure, given the worldwide attention her accomplishment garnered. Perhaps Hauptmann even heard about her exploits afterwards and connected that Hoboken Pier in his mind, the same one from which Nellie's boat had departed years earlier.
And what about the time of her global trip, 72 days, the exact number of days from kidnap to discovery of the body in Mt. Rose. Coincidence here? Sadly, most probably, yes.
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Post by Michael on Apr 12, 2006 5:41:32 GMT -5
I had no idea that Nelly was a form of those names. Still though, these names aren't familiar to me in relationship to this case (or at least not yet).
This is a good point Rick. I took notice of CAL using these coded messages myself - interesting isn't it?
You could be on to something Joe. Again, this note seems to have some sort of sea faring knowledge attached to it. We also should remember the German Sailor Song attached to the mersman table confession. I believe that when Mueller was a deck hand he could have run into one of the various "Nelly" boats which gave rise to this thought. (I am still working on a Boat Nelly and Clauson's Point etc.). I am sure he too would be familiar with the Nellie Bly story.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 13, 2006 12:39:08 GMT -5
I don't think the writer was nautically familiar. The reference to Elizabeth Island seems to show an unawareness that this is a chain of islands not one. Perhaps the directions are a subconscious result of the writer. The original Gun Hill Road entry coupled with 28 ft for rt 28 and Nellie for Elizabeth ( Nellie blys given name) Route 28 went from Elizabeth( near the ferry from NY) to Somerville and then rt 31 to Princeton.
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Post by Michael on Apr 13, 2006 16:16:18 GMT -5
You could be right concerning this indicating something of a code, however, where does this person get Elizabeth Island from if not a Sailor and not looking at a map?
Every report, letter, and memo mentions this note as an indication of a Seafarer being the Author. See my reasons above and add the fact this boat being mentioned by a certain number of feet. This length at the very least indicates boating experience and/or knowledge - regardless. All the material I have suggests the same thing, and I have not seen any alternative suggestions anywhere - ever.
I have a feeling it is being resisted on the grounds that it is believed Hauptmann wrote it. Regardless - I think the question should be where this knowledge and information came from as it was written.
Of course I am still 50/50 concerning Hauptmann writing these notes so I do not post what I do above to try and disprove or prove this.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 13, 2006 18:58:50 GMT -5
"Every report, letter, and memo mentions this note as an indication of a Seafarer being the Author"(Michael)
I really can't agree here a I see no indication that the note writer was a sailor. The description of the vessel( a small boad about 28ft) is hardly a nautical description. A sailor would be more specific; a 28ft trunk cabin or a 28ft sloop. Then there is the location; between Horseneck beach and Gay Head near Elizabeth Island. That is landlubber speak, a sailor uses bearings to give direction; 15 mi ENE of New Bedford or 2 mi W of Gay Head. A "blue water" sailor would give coordinates in longitude and latitude. Also, a sailor or someone familiar with boats would think like one and realize that a 28ft boat with only 2 women on board would need to be moored or anchored and this would probably mean an anchorage or harbor. Was the writer saying the boat was adrift ?
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Post by Michael on Apr 14, 2006 5:40:47 GMT -5
Let me be the first to admit that you are talking to someone with very little time on a boat. I think you could be correct that a Seafarer could be even more specific, but shouldn't someone who was not be less?
When I read the Police reports, memos, and letters some written by the Coast Guard, Police, and persons with experience - they are all saying the same thing.
Perhaps its someone trying to sound like a Sailor, or a Sailor toning it down, but for me, based upon everything I've read written back in the day and during the investigation, I just don't see these references coming from someone who knows nothing about boats and that area.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 14, 2006 6:32:58 GMT -5
I am not saying that it is someone with no knowledge of boats, only that it is a very limited knowledge. Perhaps a person who is interested in owning a boat and hence has a limited understanding of boating. I believe an actual sailor would recognize the realities involved with leaving 2 women and a baby on board a vessel as well as the need for whoever else to disembark. That would more likely mean an anchorage and the corresponding location to provide this. A seafarer would likely assume a rescue by boat not an aircraft, even if it is Lindbergh's baby. Either case, anyone experienced with the sea would simply name the anchorage and know the implications of stating the boat is somewhere at sea between such and such beach, points that would be irrelevant to a mariner.
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2006 9:41:31 GMT -5
But isn't that the point? I know from the investigations that followed there was no boat Nelly anywhere near this area at that time. Obviously the general location was given by design and to be specific would have defeated the purpose. That's also assuming this note isn't a "coded" message of sorts. Also, those women could be left unattended if those responsible left them there. Consider the Benjamin Collings Long Island Sound Murder Mystery. Here, "Someone" left a child on board alone... www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/story/252677p-216366c.html
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 15, 2006 17:18:06 GMT -5
I am not sure there was a point to the Nelly escapade. That is a great article, Michael. But that crime was not a "planned" kidnap/ransom situation. Would a kidnapper who wants the victim and attendants to be safely found risk setting them adrift in dangerous waters? If you are convinced or suspect a "code" is being employed in these notes, I have a good source for you. Personally, I think it is Richard being creative.
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Post by Michael on Apr 15, 2006 18:10:51 GMT -5
Oh I'm not convinced but I do believe there's a possibility of a code there.... so I am interested in any source that you have.
That's just it.... who collects a ransom on a dead baby? I think we're losing track of the situation and going off on too many tangents. If the "Nelly" note is not a code then its a ruse. I personally accept what I've read crediting its "Author" with specific knowledge that a Sailor might have. Again, if Condon was telling the truth then CJ was trying to clear Red, a Sailor, so if the "Author" of this note is not - why in hell is he directing them to a specific sized boat to an area that existed and utilized often by Rum-Runners?
It looks like we're going to disagree on this point for now. Maybe something new will turn up which may change someone's position.
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Post by rmc1971 on Aug 28, 2007 7:47:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure that I could even hazard a guess on how the name 'Nelly' came about. But I wouldn't be shocked if the boat angle was put in so it would mesh with the stories floating around in the papers of John Hughes Curtis' alleged gang. I could see that as one group of extortionists trying to take the wind out of the sails (see what I did there of another would-be extortionist.
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Post by Michael on Aug 29, 2007 16:12:10 GMT -5
I like the way you are thinking on this point.....
Problem is this "boat angle" involves northern points and Curtis was dealing with a group from down south. If the idea was to mesh the two then I think places in the South would have been used. Since we now know, via Rab's research, that the sleeping suit had been mailed from Stamford then it stands to reason these points of reference may relate to this.
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