kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 4, 2006 16:34:47 GMT -5
Does anyone see any significance to Hauptmann's inclusion of the whole "Boad Nelly" episode? Was this purely a product of his imagination or was there some actual origin of Nelly? Did he read Conrad's Heart of Darkness, for example? Was Nelly meant as a reference to the cockney slang for life? And what was the point of this mis direction? Was he trying to get Lindbergh and the police away from the metro area? And if so, why?
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Post by Michael on Apr 5, 2006 19:18:23 GMT -5
Boats did exist that were named "Nellie" & "Nelly" in fact there were many of them and the Police tried to investigate the best they could. (If you want me to dig around for some specifics just let me know). The points of reference existed as well but these areas just weren't known to the normal everyday person.
They were known to Sailors and/or Rum-runners.
It gives me a flash-back to a report I read written by (I believe) Agent Sisk. Going from memory he suggested that the actual writer may not have been the person who devised the contents. It was also suggested these letters may have been dictated.
As we see with Rab's sleeping suit research and some other circumstances that appear to point towards New England - it appears there was a connection to this case there.
Now with this in mind, I don't think Hauptmann would have the knowledge of these places, but once again - I do believe his nephew Hans Mueller would.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 6, 2006 5:59:38 GMT -5
So do you think the Nelly reference has a basis in fact or was it an arbitrary choice? Is Hans Mueller the brooklyn boxer ?
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Post by gary on Apr 6, 2006 11:18:50 GMT -5
I don't think Hauptmann knew these places either and its one of the many reasons I believe he is not alone in this crime. There are a lot of servants that had some passing in these areas too.
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Post by rick62private i on Apr 6, 2006 11:36:10 GMT -5
I keep musing how all these boat references were included by 2 of 3 kidnap gangs. Right out of the starting blocks we have a Norwegian sailor on the Lamont yacht driving to Connecticutt. Then CJ tells Condon, I am a Scandanavian sailor? this tells you how bright Condon really is and who he knows? Then right after, CJ tells Condon that Red and Betty are innocent? one plus one never = 2 here? Someone once mused that Boad Nelly was once Road Nelly before the bottom leg was connected?
How many kidnappings include hiding a baby on a boat/ Sounds more like a pipedream or a fictional novel to me. Someone with an overactive imagination run wild. Even Gaston Means doesnt fall for any boat tricks--he takes us all on a wild goose chase to Juarez, Mexico?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 6, 2006 12:59:08 GMT -5
It makes perfect sense to claim the baby is on a boat if you don't have a live baby to present. Even Herr Hauptmann could come up with that.
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Post by Michael on Apr 6, 2006 20:04:27 GMT -5
So do you think the Nelly reference has a basis in fact or was it an arbitrary choice? (Kevin)
***Yes and no. It exposes a member of the gang concerning their knowledge about these areas.
Is Hans Mueller the brooklyn boxer ? (Kevin)
***No. Anna's niece, Maria Mueller's husband.
It makes perfect sense to claim the baby is on a boat if you don't have a live baby to present. Even Herr Hauptmann could come up with that. (Kevin)
***I don't think I can agree here. According to Condon, CJ is telling him the person down "soud" is the wrong party. Why then direct them to a boat when Curtis is directly connected to boats and his story is too?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 7, 2006 7:53:17 GMT -5
What is known about Mueller?
The choice of a boat as the location of the baby is inspired if your not able to produce the child. Curtiss had a personal prejudice in this regard but Hauptmann/CJ could easily see the utility in it. It is not surprising that the opposite direction was picked.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 7, 2006 18:32:42 GMT -5
As early as March 12, the location of the baby as being on a boat had been developed and communicated by CJ to Condon. Given that this ultimately became a wild goose chase, it appears the intent was simply to lay the groundwork for a reasonably consistent but false message that the baby was being cared for.
Following the payment, the lack of a precise address or position on the ocean, also ensured an opportunity for the kidnappers to distance themselves as much as possible from an immediate "posse." They achieved this through the need by Lindbergh to now begin a fruitless and lengthy search for a boat, which would represent a moving and elusive target.
I don't particularly see anything within the Woodlawn preamble, up to the Boad Nelly note that would specifically indicate a nautical background or wealth of information on the part of CJ, aside from the ability to do a bit of homework and note a few locations on a common map. What I do see clearly is one of the most heartless and despicable conclusions to one horrible crime, seemingly designed to drag out the Lindberghs agony to the breaking point.
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Post by cadet Gary on Apr 7, 2006 22:21:33 GMT -5
Joe,
Definetely requires homework and not dart throwing on a map. CJ had to be prepared for any circumstance and seemed to be equiped when ready for other situations. He had to be prepared if Condon asked for the letter first. Obviously he would try to avoid this but I often wonder what if Condon demanded the reading of the letter first or the location of the child first before handing over the money. CJ certainly would have to pick a spot that would not appear ridiculous or down right impossible. Unfortunately everyone allowed CJ to deal the terms with strength.
The question I ask is CJ a good intermediary for the confederates. The answer IMO is no yet he was able to accomplish the highest expectancy of success. Who would ask a broken english speaking german to negotiate the exchange for the group? I would fear he would not get something right. If we are able to believe Condon CJ has signs of weakness' through and through talking about his feelings and emotions and much more.
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Post by Michael on Apr 7, 2006 22:29:13 GMT -5
What's it matter?
If you don't have a child - either way - what inspires someone to claim he's on a boat as opposed to dry land?
We have to remember the ever conscientious CJ is clearing Red Johnson too - and, according to Jafsie, insinuates Curtis's "gang" is the wrong party. Problem is that Curtis enters the case on March 19th and Jafsie has CJ saying this on March 12th.
Why is Condon lying and was he lying about the part concerning Red Johnson too?
I say my point still stands. CJ, if you believe Condon, is trying to lead them away Sailors but pens out a note Charles Jr. is on a boat.
It doesn't make sense to me.
I don't particularly see anything within the Woodlawn preamble, up to the Boad Nelly note that would specifically indicate a nautical background or wealth of information on the part of CJ, aside from the ability to do a bit of homework and note a few locations on a common map.(Joe)
***There isn't one report I can find wherein any information contained supports this position.
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Post by rick62private i on Apr 7, 2006 22:48:16 GMT -5
Starting with the premise that none of the 3 main gangs have Charlie, then what is thier game? They are negotiating for the ransom from a position of weakness (eg no hair, no fingerprints, no photo, no blue thread t=shirt) that could end in death. Serious business. "finessing a kidnap" Condon convinces CJ that he will never testify against him and that Charlie is "alive and well"? This gives a hole new meaning to reverse psychology? So with all this danger, who makes up the exoneration for Red and Betty....JFC or CJ? Who benefits Michael would ask? What a huge coincidence that Red is heading North to West Hartford on March 1st and last summer putted around Marths Vineyard in Lamonts yacht? Who or Why was Red the Scandanavian Sailor given free passage back to Sweden in this climate? Could it be CAL? Or was it the he's innocence remark of CJ that cleared him?
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Post by Michael on Apr 7, 2006 23:00:55 GMT -5
Better yet Rick....
Why doesn't CJ know where he left the note? He tells Condon that it was left in the "grib." Is CJ the mouth-piece for the gang or a one-man-band who doesn't know what he did? Is Condon telling the truth and if not why is he lying? Who benefits from the lies he tells?
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 8, 2006 8:40:11 GMT -5
Gary, I agree that CJ would have to be prepared for a variety of ways the Woodlawn Cemetery discussions might unfold. I believe he had also done his homework in knowing more about who Condon was and that he had previously shadowed him. It's reasonable that CJ would also have a well rehearsed and rational explanation as to how the baby was being cared for, in this case aboard a boat with a communications flag on its mast. At the same time, I don't think it was ever CJ's intention to be drawn so deeply into Condon's own agenda, which seems to have been geared as much towards the human nature side of CJ's agenda, as to assurances that the baby was safe.
Michael, I have difficulty understanding how stating the baby is on such a non-descript boat, in an approximate location, implies the person originating the story has anything more than a passing knowledge of ships and sea travel. Is there anything specific you recognize here that would require a deeper knowledge than a basic landlubber like myself? The great advantage I see here in this story, from the kidnappers perspective, is that even if Condon had started to quiz him on nautical terms or jargon, CJ could understandably have "played dumb," in the guise of not wishing to reveal too much critical detail, when in fact he might not have known his mast from a hole in the ground.
The whole business about CJ stating that the gang down "soud" were not involved, is an interesting one, if we are to believe Condon's later story that this did happen in the first meeting. Is it possible this actually happened at St. Raymonds? Or that Condon had some idea that Curtis had initially approached Lindbergh before Curtis was taken more seriously, and as a result Condon had queried CJ on this to verify he was the right party?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 8, 2006 9:13:52 GMT -5
Joe, you have interpreted some of Hauptmann's actions and the "singnature", do you think the name of the boat,Nelly, has some significance?
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if we are to believe
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Post by if we are to believe on Apr 8, 2006 9:15:13 GMT -5
this seems to be the theme of these posts, why would anyone believe Condon? Too bad Hauptamn wasn't as meticulous in building the ladder as he was in creating his cemetary stories. If he had been as considerate to Charlie as he was to Red and Betty the baby would have survived.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 8, 2006 9:20:38 GMT -5
"Too bad Hauptamn wasn't as meticulous in building the ladder as he was in creating his cemetary stories."
We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Hauptmann was a much better schemer than a carpenter.
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Post by Michael on Apr 8, 2006 11:27:41 GMT -5
Kevin, What do you want to know about Mueller? I've got a lot on him and what I don't know Siglinde will. As to Hauptmann's carpenter skills... What exactly causes you to make this comment? His car trunk looks to me as if he possessed some skill. I have other reports which range from average to skillful when it came to his abilities. As to the post made by our unknown Guest. It's an excellent point. I don't have the Liberty Articles but I do have the rough draft manuscript. I know Ronelle has some of those articles on her resource page.... In any event, Hoffman makes a very similiar point to which I simply must agree. This supports our Guests position as well (p96): And "John", the baby kidnaper and murderer, was a kindhearted person, too! When, at St. Raymond's Cemetery, Doctor Condon told "John" that "these are times of depression.....Colonel Lindbergh is not so rich....why don't you be decent to him...he can't raise the extra money," the murderer immediately replied (as quoted by Condon in Jafsie Tells All), "Since it is so hard it will be all right, I guess. I suppose if we can't get seventy, we take fifty."
Kindhearted - oh yes - a very sentimental fellow, this "John" who had brutally murdered a baby and thrown its little body in the woods. Before the Bronx Grand Jury, on May 20, 1932, Doctor Condon testified as follows: "I said....'What is your name?' He said, "Call me John.' 'Well, John, did you ever think of your own mother?' 'Yes," and a tear came into his eye, which I saw on that night on the northerly side of the large gate of the cemetery." "John's" heart must have been almost breaking. And what vision the venerable Doctor had on that dark night when he even spied that telltale tear! It's also to be remembered folks that Condon was telling Reporters, post April 2nd, that he was STILL in touch with the Kidnappers and that they had nothing to fear from HIM. Gary, These are good points but it assumes Condon is being honest. It also assume Condon isn't involved in some way to including actually knowing the Parties involved. It's my opinion he knew some of them. Joe, I think you are applying today's standards to a situation as opposed to standards of that day. Alot of that area was completely uninhabited then. These areas weren't anywhere as populated as they are today. Our good friend and fellow Researcher John Sasser has done a lot of research in this area and has shared most of it with me. If you get a chance to discuss this with him he has some very interesting information. Anyway, if someone is looking at a map, clearly, it is the Elizabeth Islands - not Island. I have also searched as many 1932 maps as I could trying to locate "Horseneck Beach" and I have been unable to do so. Its on modern day maps but again, back then, the area was isolated in nature and there were very few people living near there. According to Special Agent West, Customs Inspectors Fitzgerald and Duffy - Horseneck Beach was the scene for many years of Rum-Running operations. A Lawyer, Noah Browning of Hudson NY, had sailed this area and was quite familiar with it. In his letter to Schwarzkopf he wrote: It seems to me that note narrows your field of search considerably. If you have some evidence against a man who has had the means of knowing the localities referred to in that note you may have the right man. Not one in ten thousand has such knowledge. As a side note to consider.... During the aftermath of the Wall Street Bombing, I found reference to one of the suspects being followed to Horseneck Beach. This suspect is only referred to as "Russian." Now in the past I have also found references to Nosovitsky being named as a suspect so perhaps this was who they were referring to.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Apr 8, 2006 13:55:33 GMT -5
"As to Hauptmann's carpenter skills... What exactly causes you to make this comment? His car trunk looks to me as if he possessed some skill. I have other reports which range from average to skillful when it came to his abilities. " ( Michael)
I have no doubt that Hauptmann, trained in Germany, could be a good craftsman. However, he does not appear to have his heart in this direction. I can not speak with absolute confidence about his work, as the only work of his that I have actually seen are the ladder and the block of wood containing the gun. Neither of these speak of a prideful carpenter. A craftsman takes pride not only in his work, but the tools which he uses to create. Here Hauptmann's tools speak volumes and do not in any way reflect a man who takes pride in his trade.
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Post by jack on Apr 8, 2006 19:56:07 GMT -5
Gary, in his reply #9, raises an interesting possibility. What if Condon had tried to walk away from CJ with the money on not seeing the baby at the cemetary for exchange? Would CJ let Condon walk back to the car? Would CJ have used force to take the money from Condon? If so had he planned to take on two people, Condon and Lindbergh (and possibly the police)? Would he have had confederates in the area ready to execute some fall back plan? Why would the police have allowed one of the most celebrated men in the world to go into such a situation without some contingency plan to pull him out if things went badly? Why didn't Condon walk when he did not see the baby there?
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Post by cadet gary on Apr 8, 2006 21:47:33 GMT -5
Jack, You are absolutely right. It seems hard to believe the authorities would allow Lindbergh to go on this trip. Especially without some kind of surveillance that he would be safe.
Michael,
You are right. We all know Condon's tall tale heart. I've said this on one my first post on this board two years ago. We will never know CJ as he was because of the assortment of information given by the only man that really confronted him. Truly we will never know. At one time I wondered if CJ was actually a lot younger than described by Condon. Remember Condon mentioning CJ did not have his father's permission to make an exchange for the child? I also wondered if this is the same young man as the 2nd taxi driver. Have we forgotten that this 2nd taxi driver NEVER came forward? Why not? Do we remember Myra mentioning the taxi driver seemed so young? Have we not noticed the FBI saw no one enter the front door even though they carefully spied on the home that night? its often been tossed around that Condon might be protecting one of the members of the gang. Maybe there were two that night that greeted Condon at Woodlawn. Maybe he was protecting the younger. I have no theory here or do I actually believe the possibility but its worth an open mind.
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Post by Michael on Apr 9, 2006 8:53:31 GMT -5
Gary,
I think we may also consider that Condon, by protecting someone - may have also been protecting himself.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 9, 2006 9:57:08 GMT -5
Kevin, with regards to the name of the boat as Nelly, I've never really given it a lot of thought. I guess it just seems like such a common name. I think it could have been pulled from just about anywhere and there is little else of seeming value in the specific description of the boat that might imply a common source.
For instance, I believe Richard proposed to Anna in the Coney Island Tunnel of Love... I wonder what the name of that boat was. Or the name of the "boad" which the Hauptmanns and Hans took a ride on during their California trip. Allen on his board, also opined that the kidnapping of Nelly Donnelly a few years prior might have provided the inspiration for the name.
I did some searching on the Internet yesterday to follow up on a thought I posted a few years ago, relating to the Stephen Foster song "Nellie Bly." I've found something else which I find very interesting and want to explore it a bit more before posting on it.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 9, 2006 10:06:47 GMT -5
Michael, you may well be right about that area, noted in the Boad Nelly directions, not being as well known back then as it is today. While I believe it was basically Hauptmann and Fisch involved in the extortion phase of the kidnapping, I don't discount the possibility that the original gang may have included someone with a working knowledge of that area.
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Post by Michael on Apr 9, 2006 14:24:52 GMT -5
Here's one....
When Lindbergh lived in Mount Rose he had a women doing the laundry named Nellie. The Elizabeth Island of CuttyHunk is halfway between Gay Head & Horseneck beach. Charles Jr. was found about halfway between the Mt. Rose house and Highfields. The shallow grave in which he laid was located on an Island shaped like an ironing board.
Perhaps this ransom note did tell them where Charles Jr. was after all? And maybe that's why the burlap bag was placed along side the road to mark the spot.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Apr 9, 2006 20:42:57 GMT -5
Here's another theory on how the boat might have come to be called Nelly. The following are a couple of excerpted paragraphs from an online biography of the first woman investigative reporter in North America, Elizabeth Jane Cochran, who became "Nellie Bly" to her readers. I was struck by a number of connections within the second paragraph between her, Hauptmann's trans-Atlantic journey, and the effect of her achievement, like the effect Lindbergh's flight had on the world. Check them out. They may be nothing more than coincidence but hey, you never know.
In September 1887, Nellie succeeded in joining the staff of the New York World where her first assignment was to be committed to the Women's Lunatic Asylum on Blackwell's Island. This adventurous and daring stunt propelled Bly into the limelight of New York journalism. It also launched the "stunt age" where women risked their reputation alongside their lives to break into the men's world of the press. Nellie continued her undercover "stunt" reporting for the New York World until the fall of 1888, when it was suggested at a round table meeting amoung the World's executives to send a man around the world in less than 80 days. Nellie, infuriated, threatened to do it in less time for another newspaper if they did not agree to send her instead.
On November 14, 1889, Nellie Bly began her world-wide journey on the Hamburg-American Company liner Augusta Victoria from the Hoboken Pier at exactly 9:40:30 a.m. No special considerations were given to Bly as she hopped from train to boat to rickshaw in order to make the necessary connections. Bly's travel experiences were published daily in the World and eagerly read by all. Seventy-two days, six hours, eleven minutes and fourteen seconds after her Hoboken departure, Nellie arrived home. She was greeted with fireworks, parades and brass bands and was catapulted into the world's spotlight.
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Post by name of nelly on Apr 9, 2006 22:44:57 GMT -5
i'm thinking that nelly is a nickname for another more formal name, maybe elizabeth
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Post by Jill guest on Apr 10, 2006 1:40:02 GMT -5
Nellie was my mother's name. Maybe it's named after her.
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Post by Michael on Apr 10, 2006 5:35:42 GMT -5
I think the brain-storming we have done is a good idea and it should continue. I have been looking for any Nellie connection even remotely to this case for as many years as I have been researching. The nick-name idea is a good thought too..... especially since, back then, everyone seemed to have them or multiple aliases. Joe, this is a good working theory but how does it tie in with the rest of the note?
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Post by rick3 on Apr 11, 2006 1:43:30 GMT -5
Everyone of the 3 or 4 kidnap gangs claimed they had at least one woman on board to take care of Charlie. Maybe the nursemaids name was Cornelia?
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