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Post by Michael on Feb 16, 2006 6:12:12 GMT -5
That is an awesome link Joe. You may want to put that in the link thread so we don't all come to you and ask for it again. I still don't see how this proves or disproves Walsh's assertions. I agree with Kevin that we next an Expert's input. Here is the link requested. It comes from Rab's Index which is on my link site: homepage.ntlworld.com/foxleywood/window.JPG
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 16, 2006 10:17:04 GMT -5
Michael, thanks for posting Rab's link to the diagram. I also agree the opinion of a forensic expert would be invaluable here. Gary, I admit that my interpretation of the diagram and it's purpose might seem like shaky ground to stand on, ie. that those involved in CALjr's death would seek to "preserve" it. Further, this line of thought runs cross-current to my own belief that the baby's death was an accident. If it is the design for an icebox, perhaps it even has something to do with the chilled storage of furs and may have been of interest to Isador Fisch. I really don't know either way and I encourage others to take a look at this diagram and see what they think. Here' the link again: homepage.ntlworld.com/foxleywood/window.JPGJoe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 16, 2006 10:32:19 GMT -5
Joe that is very creative thinking! I think, however, that this drawing contains much more than a plan for an icebox. In fact, I think it is essentially working plan for the kidnap.
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Joe
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Post by Joe on Feb 16, 2006 14:47:05 GMT -5
Kevin, I kept this diagram on my fridge (of all places!) so I could constantly think about it's meaning. From my perspective, it appears to be a three-dimensional representation of an old-style icebox. The "shelf" (side view) has the approximate height of the top portion of the upper diagram, ie. a slide-in drawer containing ice. The ice is represented by the series of circles.
The "shelf" also has a bit of a lip at the bottom which would facilitate an easy grasp by the fingers for sliding out and replacing the ice. At the back of the "drawer," there appears to be a kind of adjustable opening to allow cold air from the ice to fall down into the lower section of the "icebox."
It appears to represent the very principle of the old fashioned iceboxes, in that cold air falls and so the ice was placed up top.
I'd really like to hear more about your thoughts on the diagram and how it may represent a working plan for the kidnapping. Please explain.
P.S. There are a few other diagrams found in Hauptmann's memo book, which might also hold some valuable clues.
Joe
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 17, 2006 8:06:14 GMT -5
Well, there are worse places to hang that drawing!
Send me a personal messege with an email address and I will snd you a photo and explanation.
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Post by Elyssa on Feb 18, 2006 11:20:51 GMT -5
I haven't quite figured out the set up of your board yet, so if I'm posting in the wrong place I apologize.In one of the post jealousy was mentioned as reason for the supposed kidnap. You have to ask who would be jealous, Betty Gow? After all she was the person closest to Charlie, maybe she was worried about what treatment he would receive after another baby came along, or maybe she didn't want the responsibility of caring for 2 children, buying clothes for 1 was hard enough on her. Maybe she thought a good scare would make the parents realize how lucky they were to have Charlie, and they wouldn't take him for granted and would spend more time with him and the future child. Could he have been taken in fear? Charles hadn't finished the house yet and was evidently running short of funds, according to several things I've read, maybe he was going to extort money from the Morrows to help with his finances, if that's the case Anne would never know how desperate he was, he'd have the money he needed, and no one would be the wiser. But something went wrong and the baby died. Now he was in real trouble, in more ways than one- he would be blamed for the death of his son, HERO just went down the drain , no money of his own BROKE and the world would know, not to mention the Morrows, he just lost his standing with the family and the world. The way things worked out , he could get rid of the monstrosity of a house and come out looking as if he had enough money he didn't need to sell it, plus donating it to the state would put him back in the public eye, for a good deed not the death of his child. They could live of the Morrows and everyone would think it was because he was distraught over his sons death and couldn't face going back to Highfields. Then Hauptmann came along and Lindbergh decided to point the finger at him and close the door on the kidnapping forever once Hauptmann was found guilty, the search for the kidnapper would be over and Lindbergh would be safe. I don't think Betty would have risked being found out and losing her position with the child she loved. From where Lindbergh stood he had nothing to lose and everything to gain. until the unexpected happened and the child was injured and died.
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Post by laura51830 on Feb 18, 2006 12:40:57 GMT -5
------------------------------------------------------------------------ I've read in several places that Betty was quite attached to Charlie and that she was the only person who could go near him and he wouldn't scream.
Where did you read that CAL was running out of funds? I know he had to sell stocks to pay the ransom. I believe he was behind the kidnapping, but the majority of posters are only interested in discussing Hauptmann's guilt.
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Post by rita on Feb 19, 2006 2:20:12 GMT -5
To Elyssa, Laura I've suspected the Morrow Trust for CAL Jr. as a motive, and you bring up interesting facts that indicate he was living over his head, perhaps counting on Morrows coming to the rescue. I've read he was not in too good standing with the Morrows, and that CAL Jr. was placed over him in Morrow's estimate by laving a large trust to CAL Jr. We read about these casses all the time, and all that is needed for him to take control of CAL Jr.'s trust is have an accident that causes brain damage, or to have the child dissapear. We all have read of CAL playing dangerous pranks on others and CAL Jr. , was he simply was trying to produce a accident, and if that didn't work is CAL Jr. just locked away somewhere, or might he have been made to disapear.
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Post by Rab on Mar 4, 2006 9:37:09 GMT -5
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Post by rick for rita on Mar 5, 2006 21:05:52 GMT -5
Rita...you could be correct. Maybe CAL was shaking Charlie every nite between 7-10 to induce brain damage. AS if he was a little piggy bank full of money? Trusts do in fact drive people nutso...every day waiting and waiting for money on a time delay that they need right now. Maybe Dwight and CAl had the same idea? A win/win partnership? While they starve to death in the dark. Is it possible that construction work on Highfields had to cease until CAL filled up the coffers again. It had to have been CAl that withheld the the last $20K in 50 dollar gold certs and then just like the sycophant Condon to fall on his sword for him/ Cheap is as cheap does.
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Post by rita on Mar 5, 2006 21:34:07 GMT -5
Rita for Rick Dwight Jr. and Cal were waiting for their piggy bank to break. I tried looking up the plans for the Hopewell House without luck. The reason for looking at the plans are to find possible hidden area where the child could have been kept, because houses that have ballrooms or high cieling rooms sometimes have walkways behind the walls that sometimes enlarge into small room spaces. CAL Jr. or his body could have been in the house while everyone was searching.
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Post by Elyssa on Mar 6, 2006 18:25:52 GMT -5
I'd like to thank whoever for the weather records. From the looks of the temps during the time of the kidnapping. If the body was on Mt. Rose Rd. the entire time before being found, it would have frozen and thawed several times. Animals probably wouldn't have found it if it were frozen or possibly found it but couldn't eat it. This might help explain missing parts as those parts weren't frozen solid. I know this sounds awful, and I cringed as I wrote it, but isn't it a possibility that the temps had something to do with the condition the body was in. Wouldn't freezing and thawing over and over cause the body to decay more rapidly even in the cool temps.. I know if the weather were extremely hot it would explain the state of decay it was in.
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Post by kanneedwards on Mar 6, 2006 18:42:19 GMT -5
Parker was a local detective that had solved many difficult cases and was sort of a down-home sherlock holmes. his opinion was the weather should have perserved the body more so than it was. also local farmers didn't see any vultures circling in the area which would have been a clear sign there was something dead. the little body was partly covered and was in a shady spot as well. this is all i know except the area had been searched before
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rick for elyssa and kathy
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Post by rick for elyssa and kathy on Mar 6, 2006 23:18:45 GMT -5
If I am not mistaken, about 30,60 or 90 days ago we came to the conclusion after 50 to 100 posts that the body was placed there after the ransom was paid in St. Raymonds on 2 April. It took a huge effort to reach that most logical conclusion. One of the biggest weaknesses of these moving billboards is that everyone keeps forgetting the near distant past over and over and over thus arguing the same points ad infinitum and never concluding anyding/ it must have a name: rolling amnesia? Apparently it works? 1. the body was in the burlap bag 2. the bag was ditched along the road 3. a carnivore dragged the body to a safe location to eat and cover it w/ leaves for later 4. it was not a dug up grave, the remains were near the surface of a natural dip 5. the body could not have been exposed to discovery during the negotiations. 6. the skeleton was blacken before being dumped AT least thats my best recollection/
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Post by Elyssa on Mar 7, 2006 11:41:12 GMT -5
To Rick, I'd like to apologize to you or anyone whose time I've wasted by joining this board. I thought this was a discussion board, and since I haven't seen anything in the news saying the true identity of the kidnapper/ killer of the Lindbergh baby has been determined, I thought discussion of the case was on going. I only found this discussion board a few weeks ago therefore wasn't around to hear the most logical conclusions to anything. The logical conclusion to most people is Richard Hauptmann was guilty, he was executed for the crime, Lindbergh was still perfect in every way and lived a long wonderful life. If this board were being run on logical conclusions it would have never been set up and there would be nothing to discuss. Amnesia has nothing to do with the contents of my posts, where as I think rudeness is included in quite a few of yours. Michael, I'd like to say I'm sorry for causing a disturbance on your site, I found it very interesting, and will continue checking it from time to time. Thank you for letting me be a part of it.
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rick for elysssasorry
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Post by rick for elysssasorry on Mar 7, 2006 12:42:46 GMT -5
Elyssa/ please forgive me if I was rude....it was totally unintentional. I was just thinking out loud of my frustrations and not "at you". Yikes, the situation as it presented itself comes up over and over again because of the huge complexity of issues and the limitations of the human mind to contain it all at any one time. Posts on the olde board just dissappeared--out of sight out of mind after 30 days an entire new slate is created. Ronelles board and Allens board has the luxury of retaining all the posts and a search engine to refresh memories. I dont know when I began posting...maybe last summer on the Olde Board. In that entire time not one single issue has been resolved or settled. this must bring great pleasure to the VDers because due to thier special pipeline to the Truth....they are satisfied wth things the way they are. <"Case Closed"> More specifically, you did not cause any disturbance on this site/ the fault lies totally with me/ Please stick around as we need all the brain power we can muster. Im sorry for giving you the wrong impression. Its me not you. there is room in this big tent for all views. Ill take a chill pill and penalize myself one week off! How about March 9-16th?
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Post by kathy for elyssa on Mar 7, 2006 14:22:18 GMT -5
Don't quit posting ( you either rick) we need discussion. what someone, before me or rick, discovered was that the bag found on the road near the baby's body had blond hair and a small bone insice of it. the GENERAL consensus i think was that the body probably had been stored somewhere else (whinch leads to question about the time of death) and drop off after the pay-off. what i think was interesting is that the thumbguard showed up right before the ransom was paid. i hope i didn't sound critical of your post and i don't think rick would have intended that either. i've learned so much here and people are generally helpful.
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Post by Michael on Mar 7, 2006 18:32:34 GMT -5
Elyssa,
You have been a welcomed addition to this board. I was hoping both you and Rick would become a Members in order to reap all the benefits and participate in our polls etc.
Sometimes things happen and its all just a misunderstanding. That's what I think happened above.... Other times toes do tend to get stepped on here and there. There are several ways to deal with this - quitting is one way - but I hope you reconsider by not choosing this option. Everyone benefits from every perspective - especially an unbiased one like you possess.
Moreover, 99% of the board could agree on something and still be wrong - that's the beauty of this case - by all means if something just doesn't look right, regardless of who agrees or disagrees, I welcome all to post their thoughts. I think everyone would agree that's my style. No one should feel stifled - that would do everyone here a dis-service.
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Post by Elyssa on Mar 7, 2006 19:50:01 GMT -5
O.Kay I'll stay I'm easy to convince. Rick I guess I'd just had a bad day too, so you don't have to punish yourself, the apology was enough and is accepted. Besides something I read in Kathys post made me think of something, if it's already been talked about, I'm sorry in advance. IF the thumb guard was found right before the pay off, maybe that's when the body was transported to Mt.Rose Rd. Cal is a prankster could have come home early (since he did miss the dinner) could have taken the child as an elaborate prank, with the note and the ladder included. Something happened the child died, Cal couldn't admit to Anne and the world how stupid he really was. He could have left the child on the ground at the foot of the ladder,gone in the house had a little while to think things over. Pretended to be shocked when the child was found missing. Then ordered the police be called, ran out with a gun then hollered for a light, while Ollie is out of site hide the child somewhere.Refuse to allow dogs to buy himself some more time. Now someone is trying to extort money so the child needs to be found before the ransom is payed, so he moves the body to Mt. Rose Rd. losing the thumbguard along the way.
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Post by kathy for elyssa on Mar 7, 2006 21:48:01 GMT -5
I'm so glad youre back and i think that makes sense about the body being nearby. CAL wouldn't allow the tracker or dogs and even refused to permit princeton students to come out to hunt. the note michael posted recently mentioned a tree stump near the house contained some clue. maybe thats where the body was stashed?
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Post by rita on Mar 9, 2006 0:53:25 GMT -5
The idea Elyssa had of the thumb gard being dropped when the CAL moved the child is good, but that the child was not dead, and was the reason Bette was kept on the job there. I have speculated previously of a possible room hidden somewhere in the house not generaly acessable to the public.
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Post by kathy for rita on Mar 9, 2006 6:45:02 GMT -5
rita i read somewhere that cal did help with the planning of the house (sounds like him) and it included the use of skylights or solar panels on the roof so he would certainly be concerned with the attic. i'm sure that house wasn't searched by the cops. i'll post more about this on ronelle's board. kathy
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Post by rita on Mar 9, 2006 21:52:42 GMT -5
To Kathy The thumb guard that was found some weeks after kidnapping in the driveway would most likly have been dropped by the child walking to a car, as walking movement would be the most liky reason for a thumbgard to be dislodged from the thumb.
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Post by Malory on Mar 22, 2006 13:23:46 GMT -5
If you have the opportunity to go to the museum in Trenton, there are graphic pictures of the body. I mean more graphic and detailed then are available on the internet. I looked at them with out realizing what they were (there was a big stack of different photos) and I was horrified. I could tell with one look that that was the child. Half of his face was preserved in the mud and looked perfectly normal.
If you ask me he was put there that night. His face was just frozen. Unfortunately that image will always be with me. I feel like if they had the body for a few days someone would have shut his eyes or moved his jaw, etc.
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Post by Michael on Mar 22, 2006 18:44:10 GMT -5
Malory,
While I disagree with your position the baby was placed there that night - I do agree those pictures of the corpse look like the pictures of the baby when he was alive.
There's no doubt in my mind that was the body of Charles Jr. which was found at Mt. Rose on 5-12-32.
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 12:41:35 GMT -5
Vis-a-vis the thumbguard.....I have recently concluded that Betty Gow must have dropped it on purpose/ there is no other rational or logical explanation:
1. It was not there for 30 days--thats absurd. Literally thousands of persons passed by.
2. The thumbquard "represents" Charlie--figuratively and literally, and his route of Exit.
3. Thus, Charlie on Mt. Rose Road was not where he was found all that time either. I just got back from the gravesite and its not far off the road in an above ground location searched before just like the Attic. Not much vegitation in March either 1932 or 2006/
4. Betty Gow got a free pass from day one all the way from to the End. The police had no rhymn or reason why one person was in or another excluded. The cops were clueless, lost and arbitrary.
5. In order to scrub the Nursery, Betty must be in and not out. She makes a terrific insider dismissed by all authors as clean for 75 years. Great Actress.
6. Now, for what reason did Betty Gow drop the thumbquard? And on April Fools Day soon coming up/ whos the Fool?
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Post by m60dick on Mar 24, 2006 13:03:35 GMT -5
Rick my good man--I do wish you would quit talking about that damn thumbguard--because--because-because--my old but still tidy mind can not find a logical explanation!
Now--you say the grave was not that far off the road--while those who say the truck-driver who found it was tipped off otherwise why we go so far off the road to relieve himself--so which is it? (and anyway consider this--he was a Black man in still largely segregated NJ so he for sure did not want a proper White lady to see him in the act so he went furhter into the woods than I or you might have)
I still contend that if the body was buried, even shallowly, and a modicum off camoflauge apllied--a searcher could have walked near it and not noticed--maybe not on it but near it
But that still don't explain that damn thumbguard.........
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Mar 24, 2006 13:08:45 GMT -5
I think the mystery of the discovery of the thumbguard may have much to do with the timing of it's discovery/placement.
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Post by rick62 member on Mar 24, 2006 22:40:26 GMT -5
Dick/ I am not so certain about any burial? Except maybe by animals. i read an account of a bear dragging a body off after an attack and covering it with leaves and twigs to hide it for tomorrows lunch. Just because rocks come up outta the ground in the spring thaw doesnt mean that corpses do as well. Look at the photos! The head and torso are above the groundline...so this must be the shallowest grave in history? Hand dug by hands? If you were to say it was redug to take off the Dr. Denton well, that could be true BUT keep in mind that Betty Gow says she put the flannel shirt on OVER the sleeping suite so getting that back on might be a chore on a half buried corpse. You are right, it is not very far iether way you look at it and so close to the road that it should have been at least smelled (liken to a deer carcass) if not spotted. Its betweeen the forks in two small creeks so it didnt just "jump or fall" to that location. And yes, in 1932 you could just barely see Highfields on the hill far in the distance but not vice-versa! The thumbguard may have indicated that Charlie had been moved down to Hopewell-Mt.Rose Road and to start looking for him? It sure didnt happen by any accident! Noone could see you drop off a body there today let alone back in '32. But if it came from St. Michaels orphange graveyard it could be a re-dig? Not saying it is/ but if it wasnt there all along where was Charlie?
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Elyssa thumbguard again
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Post by Elyssa thumbguard again on Mar 25, 2006 12:57:54 GMT -5
Above there was talk about the thumbguard and April 1st (April FOOLS day) seems to me this would bring CAL into the picture before it would Betty, after all it's matter of record what a joker he was. Plus it wasn't Bettys money that was going to be given away if the childs body wasn't found before the ransom drop.
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