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Post by Michael on Aug 28, 2008 15:44:31 GMT -5
Certainly dead men, and women (back then) tell no tales...and we have a lot of them in this case. However, after all of the research I have done here, I really don't believe certain people would talk. There are examples all over the place in these investigations of people refusing to talk concerning just about anything. They didn't want to die or didn't want to "rat." Yet there are many who did as well. And then there's the people talking so much nothing they say is believed.
On paper, Hauptmann doesn't have the money to take that trip to California. And so the question becomes, for me anyway, where did it come from? His actions in taking this trip do not make sense in the situation, financial or otherwise, he was in.
I couldn't agree more. One thing I caution is not to assume everything is coming from Ransom. I think that is something that has been a fore-gone conclusion but in my opinion should not be.
I don't Rick. The closest I have found is that a man who worked at the Majestic Hotel the same time as Hauptmann did was arrested and sent to Lewisburg for Counterfeiting.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 29, 2008 6:55:15 GMT -5
You don't have to be an expert. The holes just require a little hands on experience and the money laundering issue only takes common sense. If you have a large quantity of marked money ( and the ransom money , though not physically marked must be considered as such) you must have a method to disburse said money in an anonymous fashion or have a discount buyer available. If Hauptmann chooses to exchange the money himself, he must do so in a manner that leaves behind the least amount of evidence of his identity. Given the special nature of this crime and the money he would be inviting disaster by bringing in an accomplice to achieve this. What would the accomplice's cut be and would it be more than the various rewards for the capture of the kidnapper? Just imagine yourself in the same position and think of what your options amount to.
Fisch, I have to give Hauptmann credit for coming up with this whole story, though I doubt even he would believe the extent that this tale has grown.
Hauptmann paid before hand? That's either a pretty trusting employer or one who has absolutely no clue to human behavior.
Sure some people don't want to talk and who can blame them. But sooner or later, especially if they are involved in crime, they will find themselves in a position where they must in order to save their own skin. Then there is the issue of just what their lives would be worth if they actually knew something of value. I doubt they would be walking around very long.
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Post by Michael on Aug 29, 2008 17:05:19 GMT -5
It depends on how you look at it. If someone hires a hit-man do they pay nothing up front? Do they say hey, kill this person and I will pay you all of it after its done, or do they say, here's $x now and $x will be paid when its done?
There's always something paid up front for deals like this. Now if you are of the opinion that Hauptmann master-minded and pulled this off single-handedly then all you have to do is come up with a theory about it - the whys, the wheres, and the hows... That he's "broke" but decides to squander his last amounts to buy a car, quit his job, take this trip, place his stuff in storage, upon return - temporary quarters, then renting a more expensive place. Then realizing his error he makes a last minute decision to kidnap the Lindbergh Baby and is successful despite never casing or even knowing where to go.
Just unlucky in one regard, stupid in another, but tremendously fortunate in every move before, during, and after the crime - that is up till September '34 - then he's unlucky and stupid again.
Don't the odds say there's a little more to it?
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 30, 2008 6:35:15 GMT -5
You are right, Michael. But, I am curious. I know you have given this theory considerable thought. How much money do you think it would take for a job like this. I mean, how much do you believe Hauptmann received up front and how much upon completion? Just a rough idea.
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Post by Michael on Aug 30, 2008 7:24:48 GMT -5
Good question.
The money situation, as far as exact numbers, has never been my strong point. I think there are several factors to consider.
As it appears on paper that Hauptmann is just about zeroed out, then I ask myself how much it would take for him to quit his job and do all that he does here. One being there seems to be a lot of preparation for the job. Next, his placing his things in storage meaning he fully intends on returning and not vacating the East as I have seen suggested on the board from time to time. Upon his arrival he stays temporarily, and that's gotta cost money, then rents a more expensive place - so he's upgrading. Now he's no George Jefferson, but under the circumstances it implies he came into some dough.
I also believe there were others, and so it could be a pool of fronted money divided, or each individual is handed a certain amount. Moreover, since I don't believe the ransom was supposed to be collected, I assume the money on the back end was much higher then the down payment.
My guess is (very roughly) anywhere between 2 & 5 thousand. It's also quite possible that one could come up with an alternate explanation for the money, such as the cash in the trunk, but it still doesn't explain the rest of the circumstances.
It's a life long "dream" trip which reminds me of one I would take if I suddenly found out I was going to die in 6 months so I was doing everything I ever wanted to do before it happened.
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Post by rick3 on Aug 30, 2008 12:16:32 GMT -5
When Isador Fisch set up BRH as the Patsy? Phase I--before the kidnap: - Who sent BRH to order the ladder from Abe Samuelsohn?
- What two nice young men picked up the ladder?
- Could it have been Fisch and Hacker (or BRHs nephew?)
Phase II--between the kidnap and Fisch's exit to Leipsig: - Fisch pays Stielwig in Gold Certs for his and Uhligs passage (Parker)
- Who are the mystery guests on the ship party immediately before Fisches departure for Germany? (Gerta Henkel & mom)
- Did Fisch only leave the ransom covered with blood in the shoe box for BRH to find and bury in the garage? Maybe the real blood on the bills makes it harder to pass? Whos blood is it?
3-Phase III--between Fisch's ship passage and 19 Sept 1934:
- Did BRH lie about finding the Gold Certs in a water leak? Wouldnt he open the box soon after Fisch died?
- Did BRH lie about not knowing it was LIndbergh ransom?
- Who suggested that BRH spend Gold Certs for gas at Walter Lyles Gas station in Harlem? Pretty dumb if you ask me--not exactly Kaiser Soze masterminding?
- Was it just a coincidence the Temple of Divine Power was just 3 doors down from the Warner-Quinlin filling station at 127th and Lexington? Was BRH a member?
[Time elapsed for Kev to jump his own personal biases on this w/o answering a single question: 2:22] see below V
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Aug 30, 2008 14:38:40 GMT -5
When truth, fact, and evidence became the casualty of prejudice and a misguided effort to exonerate a child killer for some purpose well beyond rational comprehension.
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Post by rick3 on Sept 3, 2008 7:49:42 GMT -5
....deposition by Arthur H. Trost tells of meeting Fisch frquently in a pool room at 86th and 3rd from summer 1931 onwards. After Feb 1932 (just before the kidnap?) he did not see him again until summer: pg 149 Kennedy:
"I have been aquainted since March and April 1931 with a man who is also a painter and who is known by the name of Fritz...In June or July 1932 I met Fritz at a resturant at 1603 2nd Avenue at which time he axed me to buy some "hot money" for 50 cents on the dollar from a friend of his. I told him I would go with him to see the people who had the hot money, and then he took me to the same billiard parlor, and when we arrived he introduced me to Isador Fisch. I then told Fritz that I already knew Fisch and needed no introduction to him. I told him that Fisch was already in debt to me for money he had borrowed, and that I could not believe any of Fisch's stories. I was led to believe that this hot money was Fischs and he had it for sale." end quote
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Sept 3, 2008 9:46:04 GMT -5
Rick, you keep bringing up the terms "hot money" and "fencing". What exactly is that? Counterfeit, marked, or what? And how can anyone offer a fixed price such as 50 cents on the dollar when it has such a degree of variability? Just counterfeit money alone has a wide degree of value based on it's quality and denomination. Same is true for "marked" money. If it were jewelry a fence could break up the stones and precious metals. But what do you do with currency and how do you do it without it being traced back? In the LKC the money is neither marked nor counterfeit, yet in it's own way it's the hottest money to be found. What would be the wholesale value of this ransom loot given the extreme circumstances found? I think 10 cents on the dollar would be generous. Now back out the numbers with just the money Hauptmann was known to have, his spending, and his loss of regular income. The numbers just don't add up. That's one reason I have always suspected that some of the money went to Germany. I admit, I have no proof of this, but I have never had anyone tell me why it couldn't have been done. Conditions there might just have warranted a higher yield and the willingness to overlook it's origin. US gold notes might have been quite a good hedge.
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Post by rick3 on Sept 3, 2008 13:39:48 GMT -5
kevin--dont take this the wrong way--but I think I agree with you 100%....you are right--its complex, circumstantial evidence. Initially, I am just trying to establish what might be considered Fisch"s "true line of line of expertice"? Here is a 2nd example in my files: Hermann, Mrs. Daniel—saw Condon(?) or a "Doctor Goodwin" visited with Fisch and companion in Norwalk CT…..right after kidnap? Fisch had Gold Certs for 60 cents on the dollar in Norwalk CT—Doc even wrote her a prescritption for a colde? 4-3-36? (Doc Nozovitsky?) see South Norwalk Sentinel. She was warned not to say she saw Condon or she would get the same as Mrs. Busch? Or was it Dorothy Herrman? Who's the mystery companion living with Fisch at the boarding house? It would have helped if Mrs. Hermann had provided us or the cops a name?(BRH) Michael--do we know what happened to Mrs. Busch?
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Post by Michael on Sept 3, 2008 18:28:57 GMT -5
Don't know off the top of my head Rick. I only have certain files with me now so once I get back to my place I will try to research this for you.
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kevkon
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Post by kevkon on Feb 16, 2009 16:25:31 GMT -5
At what point does Fisch know he is dieing?
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Post by Michael on Feb 16, 2009 19:11:26 GMT -5
Kevin,
I think the answer lies with either Uhlig or Pinkus - I will have to look this up when I get to my files. Since the ticket Fisch purchased was round trip he obviously believed at that time he would be well enough to return.
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